The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 31 Aug 2011 03:04

Ompuri got savaged by our Netas in the below debate on NDTV. I was kind of upset the way they were attacking the Ompuri and mocking him. And,then comes Mr Bhatia (retired IAS officer) in the later part of the debate and rip apart all our "Respected Parliamentarians" present in the debate single handedly. This video is priceless.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/left-r ... /209364?sp

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 Aug 2011 03:53

It was digusting watch Commie/ Congressi talking about Om Puri insulting the Indian people who have voted for them. idiots dont realize they cheat and violate every rule of election , act without any ethic and still dont get more than 10-11% of total votes.

Lets hope and pray that in next election Voting pattern among middle class and others change and become issue based.If Anna can do this , i will be more than happy to replace all the portraits of Nehru in India with Anna's .

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 31 Aug 2011 05:58

Interesting PowerPoint presentation: Black Money

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 31 Aug 2011 07:25

brihaspati wrote:.... It reminds me of MKG, who in pursuit of ever-more refined definition of civilization - and a very personal, dictatorial sense of what social as well as general "justice" or unbiasedness means - managed to put millions into slaughter, rape and trauma in the long run.

The failure to see the long term consequences, what the nation should mean clearly - leads to a fuzziness about values and a tendency to do equal-eqals between issues/faiths/ideologies/objectives that are not equal. ...

Would beg to differ here.
First, from the vantage and advantage of retrospection, it is relatively quite easy to pull the pieces of the historical jigsaw puzzle and arrive at a conclusion on what should / should not have been. Those treading the timeline at the cross roads of history do not have that privilege.
Second, there were more factors for partition (most importantly the Great Game) than only the inability of MKG to recognise long-term consequences.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 31 Aug 2011 07:26

The leftist rapist goon/mass murderer/fake-intellectual heartburn over Anna stealing their space continues...Rundi Dotty now vomits in TOIlet...

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 31 Aug 2011 07:57

uddu wrote: You know what, Most of the people here in BR says Arundhati types are the left, But i do feel she belongs to something else. Something that's not the left. Or May be something that's not actually left in any manner. If we assume Communists parties in India as left, then surely she did not belong to that category. There is something else with these people....

I have this sadistic urge to follow her and have been doing for quiet some time. I did send her some very sick mails, just to throw her off-balance psychologically. She has a pure hatred for anything patriotic Indian. Let me try to be more clear. She hates you if you say Bharat Mata ki jai. She will quote that Muslims laid their lives for freedom struggle and hence we should not say "Bharat mata". If you say Jai Jawan Jai Kisan, She would say Indian Jawans are rapists and follow a systemic oppression of minorities. You say India is a fast emerging global economic power she would start off with the economic imbalance and all that crap. She will never digest anything good about India. She does not have the courage to stab Bharat mata herself but she will give a knife to anyone who is ready to stab Bharat mata.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 31 Aug 2011 08:13

Let us not waste the forum space on useless fellows gurus. Most of the nation already saw these people what they are and we need not worry if some English EJ papers and TV news nautankis.

Comming back to Lokpal. Some time back when the first hunger drama of Anna I posted this on my blog. http://rlindia.blogspot.com/2011/04/ref ... em-as.html I think nothing much changes till date and almost nothing will even after the Lokpal. Honest people will be afread to take any decisions and cover your A*s will become more importent than anything else.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 31 Aug 2011 08:18

FWIW, I 100% support someof the more reasonable, nay imperative, clauses I hear about in JanLokPal. Like bringing the *entire* central babucracy under purview & scrutiny, like having public service guarantees and timelines for service delivery with associated penalities should timelines be skipped. Regardless of where the idea originated, I support it if its good for India.

sum · Post by **sum** » 31 Aug 2011 08:26

It was digusting watch Commie/ Congressi talking about Om Puri insulting the Indian people who have voted for them.

Wonder why this same logic never seems to hold with INC/commies when it comes to NaMo, who has been steamrolling all opponents in election after election?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 31 Aug 2011 08:32

The media is just milking the cow so to speak - in providing room for debate over Puri and Bedi's comments and actions. It is nothing but TV rating. They will always find a few 'victims' who will easily take offense. The way these people take offense makes one believe that they were so against corruption and bad governance that they were actively engaged in creating better laws for the country and making the lives of Indians better. Like Mohinder Amarnath once said "bunch of jokers".

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Aug 2011 08:37

It is a long journey ahead: Kejriwal

Good interview of Kejriwal....I found this quote interesting:

However, we have been clear that no BJP leader or leader of any communal organisation will share the stage with us.

My inference from this quote is that Kejriwal would be willing to let the Congress or Left share stage with Anna but not the BJP...

Absolutely spineless and craven of the BJP to allow a team Anna member get away with such outrageous talk when it is obvious that the BJP was the central fulcrum responsible for the success of AH in parliament last week. Its time the BJP withdraws all support for AH, until there is a clear clarification from team Anna as to how they define 'communal' and what parties / groups would fall under this definition - and only resume support if this definition is satisfactory. Unless this is done, I personally will lose any respect for the BJP as a party worth supporting.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Aug 2011 08:44

Hari Seldon wrote: Like bringing the *entire* central babucracy under purview & scrutiny, like having public service guarantees and timelines for service delivery with associated penalities should timelines be skipped. Regardless of where the idea originated, I support it if its good for India.

How would you know its a good idea without having a handle on the costs associated with bringing the entire babucracy under purview of Lokpal?

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 31 Aug 2011 08:46

The Anna Hazare Andolan has eerie similarities with the Tea Party movement in the US.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 Aug 2011 09:20

On HT website, you have another piece of vomit by the ROY. I am not posting the link as it is not worthy of further distribution.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 31 Aug 2011 10:18

sugriva wrote:The Anna Hazare Andolan has eerie similarities with the Tea Party movement in the US.

The Tea Party movement had no central leadership, but was composed of a loose affiliation of national and local groups that determined their own platforms and agendas. Similarity exists,but to a limited extent only. TEA-was used as an acronym for "Taxed Enough Already" and the general drift was against inordinate taxation.The attempt on reduction of the national debt and federal budget deficit, and adherence to an originalist interpretation of the United States Constitution were the main points of the TEA party movement.

Anna's movement speaks on a much wider platform, I feel. It has a central leadership too, which cannot be ignored or sidelined as the focus would be lost.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 31 Aug 2011 10:54

House panel looking at Lokpal Bill set for rejig today - TOI

Its likely that Lalu Prasad Yadav, Amar Singh and Manish Tiwari will be out of standing committee panel on Lokpal Bill.

Sources said besides the obvious names under fire, parties may use the reconstitution opening to rethink their membership in the panel which has become important after Hazare's agitation. They may want to nominate members who would contribute to the tricky issue while articulating the party's stand in the face of hard lobbying by civil society.

Experts said the consultation may see more participation than before because of the publicity to Lokpal issue after Hazare's agitation.

Six of the seven Congress members are not said to know much about law and the party could rethink their names. Given the stakes involved after BJP sided with Hazare's demands politically despite realizing they could test constitutional limits, the opposition party also could review its nominations.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 31 Aug 2011 12:26

sanjeevpunj wrote: The Tea Party movement had no central leadership, but was composed of a loose affiliation of national and local groups that determined their own platforms and agendas. Similarity exists,but to a limited extent only. TEA-was used as an acronym for "Taxed Enough Already" and the general drift was against inordinate taxation.The attempt on reduction of the national debt and federal budget deficit, and adherence to an originalist interpretation of the United States Constitution were the main points of the TEA party movement.

Looking at the difference in the leadership structure is missing the wood for the trees. The similarities run deep. I know what Tea in Tea Party stands for. Just as corruption is an issue for the "middle class" in India, tax is an issue for the wealthier whites in America. Both have positions that are born out of selfishness. I will expound on what I mean by "middle class" a little later but let me expound more on the similarities.

In both US and India, a privileged class that has cornered benefits now is using the strength of their positions to push an agenda of domination. In both places they have picked up long standing issues, tax in America and corruption in India, to fight the current elites. The Tea party to fight the East and West coast establishment and the AHA movement against the current establishment. The Tea Party followers do not want to give up on their privileges but are loath to pay extra tax to pay for these privileges. The "middle class" in India refuses to look at itself in the mirror but demands complete probity from the government. Among many ills I will count the giving and taking of dowry, cash transactions for property and expense padding as important ones. Many of the above lead to lower government revenues and forces the government to introduce indirect taxes such as service tax and excise which hits everybody equally. But the selfish "middle class" is not bothered about it. In effect the "middle classes'" perfidy is subsidized by the rest of the country.

About the "middle class". What passes for "middle class" in this struggle is a caste consolidation of non-Maheshwari Hindu/Jain Bania businessmen. This is a class that has traditionally been small businessmen. Their biggest success stores like Sunil Mittal and Sajjan Jindal were small time businessmen even 20 years ago. In contrast the Maheshwaris like Birlas, Mafatlals and Khaitans were big businessmen since eons and have grown by leaps and bounds in the post liberalization era. This class of pre-modern businessmen have used family ties and networks to do business. Most of their transactions are in cash. Invariably they have been poor tax payers and have used corruption to avoid taxes. However money that changed hands for allowing these corrupt practices was always on actual amounts. So in effect corruption was a real (and more realistic) tax on these businessmen. With the advent of liberalization and entry of MNCs these businesses are now threatened. If today the Jan Lokpal bill were to be passed and every govt office were to have a citizen's charter, it would only lead to lower transaction costs for these businessmen. It would not lead to higher tax revenues for the government as these businesses would continue to deal in cash. Therefore their caste activists like Kejriwal are leading this movement into which the middle class has been co-opted. One must however be empathetic to the position of these businessmen. India is changing and we are moving to a modern society from a pre-modern one. Add to these the advent of MNC's and they quite naturally feel threatened.

The leadership structure is a function of the electoral system of both countries. In the US the people are not alienated from the main electoral parties as they are in India. Therefore in the US the Tea Party is part of the Republican election machinery whereas the AHA andolan has a completely distinct leadership structure.

One last point. If you were to consider corruption as a sort of tax, then the dichotomy between the tea party and the AHA andolan would appear to be less dissonant. One other point. The Tea Party and the AHA andolan (annistas*) would probably hate each other.

*There, I created a new name for the AHA andolankaris

VinayB · Post by **VinayB** » 31 Aug 2011 12:36

Arjun wrote:It is a long journey ahead: Kejriwal

Good interview of Kejriwal....I found this quote interesting:
However, we have been clear that no BJP leader or leader of any communal organisation will share the stage with us.
My inference from this quote is that Kejriwal would be willing to let the Congress or Left share stage with Anna but not the BJP...

Guy is a raving lunatic. Driving down to hamam bokhari to apologize for singing vande mataram is not kommunal?

For the delusional counting the 'gains' out of team Anna, count this - BJP is certified kommunal, and hamam bokari is certified secular, and kommunalism is certified a bigger problem than korruption. Ponder this question - chances of upa-3 increased or decreased after team anna drama?

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 31 Aug 2011 12:48

sugriva wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote: ...............One last point. If you were to consider corruption as a sort of tax, then the dichotomy between the tea party and the AHA andolan would appear to be less dissonant. One other point. The Tea Party and the AHA andolan (annistas*) would probably hate each other.
*There, I created a new name for the AHA andolankaris

Power to the Annistas!

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Aug 2011 12:51

VinayB wrote:For the delusional counting the 'gains' out of team Anna, count this - BJP is certified kommunal, and hamam bokari is certified secular, and kommunalism is certified a bigger problem than korruption. Ponder this question - chances of upa-3 increased or decreased after team anna drama?

I would blame the BJP more than I would team Anna. Until the Lokpal bill is actually passed - the bargaining power is more with BJP than with Anna, despite whatever hype the latter might create. If the BJP does not force Kejriwal to define 'communal' in objective terms - it will have only itself to blame for its abject surrender. If a party cannot even stand up to itself and show some basic spine so as not to allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to walk all over it - what use is it for? Why should a party with such low self-esteem be allowed to represent a big section of the populace?

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 31 Aug 2011 12:56

^^^ I have always felt that BJP never represented Hindus majority, instead they represented a section of Hindu businessmen, who were politically connected,and thus influential,and powerful among Hindus.The saints on the BJP/VHP payrolls are a few chosen ones. There are hundreds of saints that do not see eye to eye with BJP as a party that represents Hindus.There are so many Hindu organisations that do not tow the BJP line.I believe BJP is not much of a Hindu Party, but an apex party that representes vested interests of some rich and influential Hindus only.Thus I do not expect BJP to do much for the majority of Hindus in India.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Aug 2011 13:04

Two things must happen before the next election to replace the scam-plagued corrupt Congress-led alliance called the UPA-2.The BJP must first be seen to be standing firm against corruption even in the states ruled by them to offer the people a govt. that will secure the nation better within and without. Secondly,the Left/Commies must reinvent themselves,discard old ancient ideologies as relevant today as the dinosaur was,embrace "investment" and eschew "Crony Communism" as much as "Crony Capitalism". If they truly claim to represent the downtrodden people of India they must also reject the Naxal/Maoist gospel of violence against the state and innocents.The country needs a balance between unbridled Capitalism and unachievable Communism.A strong ruling party at the centre and a strong opposition to kepep it in check ushers in a ceratin balance.In ths second round of the UPA,the rout of the Left left it without a conscience and it came stacked with robber barons of all shades and hues.Power and pelf were the ideologies of the UPA-2,never expressed better than by the sordid and blatant post-election cabinet-seat brawl in full view of the country by the DMK.

As for the Congress,it must die and be reborn in a new avatar if it is to be trusted by the people of India.The entire lot of corrupt C-Teamers must be thrown out onto history's garbage bin.If they atempt to stay on in power using any means to achioeve their selfish ends,then their fate will be far worse than that suffered by Mrs.G. when she was ousted from power in '77!

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 31 Aug 2011 13:06

On a much lighter note (to cool down the hot discussion going on) - enjoy !!!

The English language has some wonderfully anthropomorphic collective nouns for the various groups of animals.

We are all familiar with a Herd of cows, a Flock of chickens, a School of fish and a Gaggle of geese.

However, less widely known is a Pride of lions, a Murder of crows , an Exaltation of doves and, presumably because they look so wise, a Parliament of owls.

Now consider a group of Baboons. They are the loudest, most dangerous, most obnoxious, most viciously aggressive and least intelligent of all primates. And what is the proper collective noun for a group of baboons?

Believe it or not .....

................................. a Congress !!!!!

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 31 Aug 2011 13:20

Nesoj wrote:...
Now consider a group of Baboons. They are the loudest, most dangerous, most obnoxious, most viciously aggressive and least intelligent of all primates. And what is the proper collective noun for a group of baboons?

Believe it or not .....

................................. a Congress !!!!!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Aug 2011 13:39

I dont think what Nesoj wrote is correct though. I have not found anywhere a group of Baboons is called a Congress and neither can the Baboons be called unitelligent, in fact they are very intelligent and opportunistic animals, who in fact fool Gazzels that they are friendly animals who warn them of leopards, Lions approaching and then prey on Gazzel Fawns.

More intelligent Antelope like impalla etc dont get fooled by thier behaviour and stronger Herbivores like Zebra, Buffalo and Elephants cannot be preyed upon by them.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Aug 2011 13:59

Arjun wrote:It is a long journey ahead: Kejriwal

Good interview of Kejriwal....I found this quote interesting:
However, we have been clear that no BJP leader or leader of any communal organisation will share the stage with us.
My inference from this quote is that Kejriwal would be willing to let the Congress or Left share stage with Anna but not the BJP...

Lends credence to the "Insider, Outsider" theory that Rudradev espoused, ain't it? Apolitical is beyond, both like or dislike of any party.

No, I guess he tried to project only BJP as communal leaving Congress and Left, that is in my opinion devoid of any political understanding or maturity.

Anyway people came to streets becoz of Anna.

sumishi · Post by **sumishi** » 31 Aug 2011 14:14

Aditya_V wrote:I dont think what Nesoj wrote is correct though. I have not found anywhere a group of Baboons is called a Congress ...

It is in here: Baboon

Aditya_V wrote:... neither can the Baboons be called unitelligent, in fact they are very intelligent and opportunistic animals, who in fact fool Gazzels that they are friendly animals who warn them of leopards, Lions approaching and then prey on Gazzel Fawns...

How relevant!!

Aditya_V wrote:...More intelligent Antelope like impalla etc {viz BRFites} dont get fooled by thier behaviour and stronger Herbivores like Zebra, Buffalo and Elephants cannot be preyed upon by them.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Aug 2011 16:42

I would like equate brf to a herd of cape buffalo and indic gaur mixed hybrid. we desire peace and to be left on our own, but reserve the right if roused to run roughshod over any threat.

ashashi · Post by **ashashi** » 31 Aug 2011 17:05

Arjun wrote:It is a long journey ahead: Kejriwal

Good interview of Kejriwal....I found this quote interesting:
However, we have been clear that no BJP leader or leader of any communal organisation will share the stage with us.

Unfortunately, that perception is not limited Kejriwal. Just a couple of days ago, I met a very old friend, a very smart person. During the chat she acknowledged that India needs Na Mo for the next 10 years or it would really be in trouble. As the discussion progressed, she claimed that Na Mo is responsible for the Gujarat riots. She then went on to say that Godhra was NaMo's creation. I asked her if she believes that Modi was orchestrated the stopping the train and burning the pilgrims. She said, she does not have proof but she would let me know when she finds it.

That got me thinking about myself about how surprised I was to see Justice Thomas's report on Godse and RSS. Being a long time BJP supporter and one who participated in RSS shakas when I was in my early teens, this should not have come as a surprise. I simply bought into the idea that Godse acted on RSS orders as show in the film Gandhi.

Like most of the Indians, I fell victim to a lie. Cannot count how many hundreds of times I heard that lie.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it".

BJP/RSS agenda of equality has enough popularity. Problem, is there is no champion of the cause.

Why doesnt BJP invest in promoting nationalistic and equality based view points in the media. Heck if Jagan and Jaya can own TV channels, why cant BJP?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Aug 2011 17:21

ashashi wrote:quote="Arjun"]It is a long journey ahead: Kejriwal

Good interview of Kejriwal....I found this quote interesting:
However, we have been clear that no BJP leader or leader of any communal organisation will share the stage with us./quote]
Unfortunately, that perception is not limited Kejriwal. Just a couple of days ago from Bengaluru, I met a very old friend, a very smart person. During the chat she acknowledged that India needs Na Mo for the next 10 years or it would really be in trouble. As the discussion progressed, she claimed that Na Mo is responsible for the Gujarat riots. She then went on to say that Godhra was NaMo's creation. I asked her if she believes that Modi was orchestrated the stopping the train and burning the pilgrims. She said, she does not have proof but she would let me know when she finds it.That got me thinking about myself about how surprised I was to see Justice Thomas's report on Godse and RSS. Being a long time BJP supporter and one who participated in RSS shakas when I was in my early teens, this should not have come as a surprise. I simply bought into the idea that Godse acted on RSS orders as show in the film Gandhi.

Like most of the Indians, I fell victim to a lie. Cannot count how many hundreds of times I heard that lie.
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it".
BJP/RSS agenda of equality has enough popularity. Problem, is there is no champion of the cause.

Why doesnt BJP invest in promoting nationalistic and equality based view points in the media. Heck if Jagan and Jaya can own TV channels, why cant BJP?

Not easy, Jagan and Jaya will be allowed as they are potential allies. BJP will never own one, they tried one with AAJ Tak and HT which was promtly with some behind the scenes force taken over by NDTV .

A more plausible explanation would be Congress ordered the riot to protect Indo-Pak relations and to consolidate Minority votes and give them a rallying cry.

I hope the lady keeps searching for how the world is flat and we fools belive is spherical in shape.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 31 Aug 2011 18:08

^^^ The theory was actually propagated by a Gujarat Samachar editor . Congi's caught on it since then.. Dad read the very editorial from which the idea of Sabarmati carnage being orchestrated by Modi was first thought out. The editor (Naveen Chauhan ) is a nasty piece of work . Friend of the local congi's (one guy called Satyajit gaekwad) .

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 31 Aug 2011 18:26

sumishi wrote:
brihaspati wrote:.... It reminds me of MKG, who in pursuit of ever-more refined definition of civilization - and a very personal, dictatorial sense of what social as well as general "justice" or unbiasedness means - managed to put millions into slaughter, rape and trauma in the long run.

The failure to see the long term consequences, what the nation should mean clearly - leads to a fuzziness about values and a tendency to do equal-eqals between issues/faiths/ideologies/objectives that are not equal. ...
Would beg to differ here.
First, from the vantage and advantage of retrospection, it is relatively quite easy to pull the pieces of the historical jigsaw puzzle and arrive at a conclusion on what should / should not have been. Those treading the timeline at the cross roads of history do not have that privilege.
Second, there were more factors for partition (most importantly the Great Game) than only the inability of MKG to recognise long-term consequences.

Retrospection is not onlee available to us, but was also available to MKG, no? He hailed from Gujarat, and was pretty aware of the history of Gujarat vis-a-vis Islamism. He spent decades fencing with the South African Brit regime, and in the end scored political points while conceding the virtual ban on Indian immigration. He was not aware of the timeline and his particular cross-roads of history? What the h*** - each of us at every moment of time are crossing cross-roads of history.

We have this tendency to find sources of all trouble outside ourselves. Partition was onlee a fault of the great Game [a half baked theory whose operational implementation was always problematic, never really went according to intent, and whose blunders were obvious at the time quite clearly], of Jinnah, of the Muslim League, of the Brit gov, of Mountbatten, of Arya Samaj, of RSS, the list is long. Congress had nothing to do with it, MKG had nothing to do with it, the Indian big-biz had nothing to do with it, - these were the holiest of holy pure completely not-responsible uncontaminated Ganges water from the mouth of Gangotri glacier.

So the very Gandhian act of fanning the flames of Islamism via Khilafat movement, using funds collected for general Congress purpose by those who had to bear the trivial responsibility of collecting operational funds during those days, something Gandhi never took upon himself, - when there were others who had held the fort while he was absent on the Indian front - who warned of the consequences, was an act of not being aware of the "cross-roads"? That was the start of Islamic reaction, with a significant riot immediately in the second phase of the Khilfat movement and MKG's crossroads unaware nationalist-Islamism.

The Gandhians began a process of legitimization of Islamics and Islamism in politics that started with this very movement. C.RDas in Bengal, and to a certain extent his protege Subhas both started the appeasement of exclusive identity based claims of disproportionate share of power - stemming from this Gandhian line between 1917-1924. Pal had been consistently against such moves. Gandhi was definitely foresighted at least in one direction - he ignored such warnings so that people later on could claim that MKG was "unaware" that he was at "the crossroads of history".

You can claim lack of knowledge in spite of others warning you about consequences which should at least make you think about what you are doing and of course that is a legitimate excuse onlee given by Gandhians.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 31 Aug 2011 18:32

sumishi wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:I dont think what Nesoj wrote is correct though. I have not found anywhere a group of Baboons is called a Congress ...
It is in here: Baboon

Aditya_V wrote:... neither can the Baboons be called unitelligent, in fact they are very intelligent and opportunistic animals, who in fact fool Gazzels that they are friendly animals who warn them of leopards, Lions approaching and then prey on Gazzel Fawns...
How relevant!!

Aditya_V wrote:...More intelligent Antelope like impalla etc {viz BRFites} dont get fooled by thier behaviour and stronger Herbivores like Zebra, Buffalo and Elephants cannot be preyed upon by them.

So indirectly INC could possibly stand for for Indian National troop of ******?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 31 Aug 2011 18:51

brihaspati wrote: Retrospection is not onlee available to us, but was also available to MKG, no?

As regards MKG, no doubt there were very serious problems. Coming to Team Anna - my feeling is that Kejriwal is well-meaning but afflicted with the same mental blocks that many Indians with a supposedly secularist education suffer from. Anna himself, having had little schooling, has more robust instincts (which come out in his references to Shivaji, for example).

Educating folks like Kejriwal is a difficult task ... most people, having once been indoctrinated at a young age, have very little capacity for digesting new ideas.

Let us see how this plays out. As the great Rumsfeld says, you go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you wish you had. Nobody is perfect, and a lot can be achieved even with imperfect instruments.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 31 Aug 2011 18:59

Nesoj wrote:On a much lighter note (to cool down the hot discussion going on) - enjoy !!!

The English language has some wonderfully anthropomorphic collective nouns for the various groups of animals.

We are all familiar with a Herd of cows, a Flock of chickens, a School of fish and a Gaggle of geese.

However, less widely known is a Pride of lions, a Murder of crows , an Exaltation of doves and, presumably because they look so wise, a Parliament of owls.

Now consider a group of Baboons. They are the loudest, most dangerous, most obnoxious, most viciously aggressive and least intelligent of all primates. And what is the proper collective noun for a group of baboons?

Believe it or not .....

................................. a Congress !!!!!

A link to collective nouns. http://www.rinkworks.com/words/collective.shtml

Aditya ji, Nesoj is right, and yes indeed, we do have a "Congress of Baboons" listed there.We also have a Parliament of Owls listed there.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 31 Aug 2011 19:01

There is this tendency in Gandhians to imagine, that success in one sector and region will work somewhere else too. It is in a sense a tunnel vision, a supremely narrow ego which ignores contradictory or contrary signals that should have made them aware of the possibility - that their very success could have been due to forces beyond their control which saw potential in such a "success".

There should be more research into the changes in perceptions of global big biz post first world war, about the need to change focus of capital away from the British empire and towards hedging bets into the future American "empire". Gradual decolonization of the politically peripheral but vast resources was an important way forward for the further development of capital.

In this, an MKG would be a good pawn. But it also meant onlee those objectives would be allowed to succeed that mattered for such global project. Great Game is an imperialist fantasy by a fading imperial dreaming power - that gives an ego-satisfying spin on the reality of power passing into some other cabal.

But partition was not the intended part of that plan, as divisions of markets would not be desirable. Roosevelt admin definitely initially did not favour such a Partition. But it was at least partly a consequence of the legitimization of Islamism started by or contributed to - by MKG. The Brits would of course help in the project - for they knew what the long term consequence would be. If the Brits themselves did all the legitimizing - then the muslim leadership would stand cornered and isolated before "nationalists". MKG was an useful tool - which would create overlap of the nationalist "identity" and divide the nationalist camp as to how Islam and Islamism should be treated.

It is the single-minded focus of Gandhians that seem to achieve results, but which at the same time ignores the long-term consequences of what they are being warned against, a peculiarly egoistic fantasy prone thinking that equates ideologies and whitewashes them according to dreamt of imagery - and basing policy and actions on such fantasies, that is the most potentially dangerous aspect of Gandhians. They end up serving as tools of powerful big-biz or entrenched feudal/mercantile networks - global as well as local.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 31 Aug 2011 19:09

^^^ I am not a particular fan of Gandhi or his so called followers. His contributions to Indian independence are debatable. And he along with a few others is responsible for socialist economic planning . Disasters like charkha , cottage industry etc handicapped generations of Indians. The problem is that people tend to hero worship , often against the better judgement. IMHO Gandhi was a well meaning gentlemen , but not the smartest . He was by no means a visionary.He often disregarded scientific and logical point of view. And quite often failed to see the broader picture. His peaceful ideas were no doubt revolutionary and thereby attract the imagination of people even today. But they are sometimes far removed from reality. Even after the collapse of every known commy regime these concepts still find attraction . In retrospect perhaps had people not implemented his economic ideas India may have been far ahead today.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 31 Aug 2011 19:46

Santosh Hegde: In Sept 2010, parliament cleared 17 bills in 12 minutes, one of them was to dilute the Prevention of Corruption Act

August 30, 2011 01:47 PM

Vinita Deshmukh

The former SC judge says Team Anna had no intention of taking the government head-on over the Lokpal issue, but it was compelled to do so because of its stubborn claim of ‘parliamentary supremacy’. Justice Hegde who was a key member of the joint drafting committee, has urged people to continue the fight for the proper use of the country’s wealth and resources

For some reason the three sections of the Prevention of Corruption Act which Parliament was set to dilute in terms of going soft on prosecution of government officers, who indulged in corruption and illegal commercial transactions, did not go to the Rajya Sabha. Otherwise, this amendment (along with the 17 bills that were passed in 12 minutes on a single day in September 2010), would have showed that the political class sitting in Parliament, which pompously boasts about 'parliamentary supremacy', was not interested in removing corruption, but was in fact keen to condone it, says Santosh Hegde, member of the joint drafting committee of the Lokpal Bill.

Justice Hegde made these remarks during a public lecture he delivered at the Nehru Memorial Hall in Pune on Monday, at the invitation of the chartered accountants fraternity, a day after Anna Hazare broke his 13-day fast for a strong anti-corruption law.

He referred to a report of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India, saying, "According to the 2008-09 CAG report, in one single year Rs54,000 crore, which was to be spent on eight rural development schemes like midday meal, water supply and so on, are not accounted for. Where has the money been siphoned off that would have enhanced the quality of life of thousands of villages? Isn't it time to bring in a strong legislation against such large-scale corruption?''Mr Hegde asked.

The former judge of the Supreme Court also made a pointed reference to the Reliance KG Basin oil deal as likely to become larger than the 2G scam, to make a strong legislation against corruption the topmost priority.

He said, "The first administrative reforms were made in 1962, when Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru was prime minister. Only 14 years after Independence, the need was felt to control decay in the administration. We chose the Scandinavian system of having an ombudsman and it was at that time that it was recommended to have an institution called the Lokpal at the centre and Lokayukta at the state level. But the proposal gathered dust, until in 1984, Ramkrishna Hegde became chief minister of Karnataka and promised value-based governance, and he fulfilled the promise by instituting the Lokayukta at the state level and it became an Act in 1986. However, the government at the centre slept over the issue for 48 years.''

In the context of the scams that were busted in 2010, Justice Hegde said, "Some members in civil society decided to draft a bill and have a discussion with the government. However, the government was unwilling. Anna Hazare sent a letter in February 2011, but there was no reply. It is only when he began his fast in April that the law ministry said the letter sent to the prime minister was misplaced and that we should send another copy. On the third day, an emissary was sent, but Anna insisted that a notification be issued and thus was born the joint drafting committee.''

Justice Hegde, who completed his term as Lokayukta of Karnataka earlier this month, mentioned how all the nine meetings of the joint drafting committee for a strong Lokpal Bill failed, as the government representatives on the committee said a singular "no" or "keep it in brackets" (meaning, "we will see"). Due to this stubborn attitude of the government to stall a strong legislation, that Anna Hazare was compelled to go on a fast a second time. Thereafter, Justice Hegde said, some government representatives even started questioning the credibility of Team Anna, with statements like 'Who are you-the unelectable and the unelected-to tell us how to have a law?' Look at the audacity of these parliamentarians who have changed the meaning of democracy, which in the right essence is by the people, for the people and of the people!''

Urging the people to undertake a mass education campaign on the Jan Lokpal Bill, Justice Hegde said people should not forget the humiliation meted out to the people of India by politicians, and if they meet any of them they should ask them, "Do you know who I am? I am a citizen of India and so I hold the highest office."

Justice Hegde concluded by saying that he felt nostalgic when Anna broke his fast on 28th August. "I was seven years old when my parents took me to a public ground when India attained freedom on 15 August 1947. I felt the same sense of pride and patriotism when Anna broke his fast.''

Asked about his disagreement with Team Anna over Mr Hazare's fast, Justice Hegde said, "I was worried about Anna's health".

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 31 Aug 2011 19:56

gakakkad wrote:And he along with a few others is responsible for socialist economic planning . Disasters like charkha , cottage industry etc handicapped generations of Indians.

Small scale industries provide massive employment and are engines of growth, not only in India but in USA as well. We now see how the 'trickle down economy' really works, don't we? A nation cannot have everybody in large scale industries. 'Balance' is a key aspect that all countries need to achieve. We need a sizable population in labor intensive areas - be it agriculture or small scale industries; we need labor in manufacturing and services.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Aug 2011 20:29

germany and japan are two nations where SME and even independent craftsmen are sophisticated enough to produce world class materials in isolation or as part of supply chain feeding into bigger products. no surprise they are both the leading manufacturing innovators on the earth.