Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 31 Aug 2011 05:33

pandyan ji Google please :http://orbat.com/site/toe/toe/india/rapids.html

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Aug 2011 08:25

So it is MPVi thingie is the Pvt sector screwdriver technology. It seems the design is from Bae, upper body kit from South Africa, Steel from Sweden, Chassis and Engine from Russia and the contacts from M&M?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Aug 2011 12:28

pandyan wrote:Rohit - Can you pls. explain in layman ( or lehman - which is typically used to indicate ignorance in the field of finance ) terms what RAPID means? Is Arjun placed in its "ideal role"?

Pandyan, we need to go into a bit of history first.

The RAPID stands for Re-Organized Assault Plains Infantry Divisions. As per Army Plan 2000 formulated in mid 80s by then Army Chief, General Sunderji, IA was to be mechanized en masse. What he had envisaged was 4 Armored Divisions, 8 Mechanized Divisions, 7 RAPIDs, 19 Mountain and 2 Air Assault Divisions.

The concept of RAPID was war-gamed and exercised in 1986-87 and the idea was to use these formations in areas where full mechanization may not be of value, primarily because of terrain, and yet, add more teeth to the Infantry Divisions. While GOI accepted the proposal, nothing came of Army Plan 2000 - lack of money and shift in focus to CI Ops in Valley. However, what the IA did was convert some Infantry Divisions into RAPIDs using internal resources - 4 in all. These are the only +ve developments of the plan.

Now, coming to the role of Arjuns - well, one thing seems to be certain - the IA will not place Arjun in Punjab proper because the infra cannot handle the beast. I know, we've debated this infra issue but then, it is the realty of life. So, it seems that Arjuns will see a role in the South Punjab/Desert.

As per d_berwal sahab, the plan is to convert all the three Armored Divisions to T-90. Which means that there are 4 RAPIDs, two (I) Armored Brigades and one (I) Mechanized Brigade in south of Punjab which can be candidates for new Arjun equipped Regiments. Going by placement of two Arjun Regiments, RAPIDs seem to be the first candidate.

Placing Arjuns in RAPIDs gives them excellent capability - which becomes more important as these RAPIDs with Pivot Corps will be the first ones to cross over if the Cold Start Doctrine ever gets implemented.

Hope this answers your query.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Aug 2011 13:40

chackojoseph wrote:MBT Arjun Mark-II to cost approximately Rs 37 crore

D Roy wrote:Now I guess people will realize why the FICV contract is going to be worth 12.5 billion for just 2610 vehicles.

inflation is a big issue in the defense industry and the FICV that is being planned is cutting edge.

by the time it rolls out in 2018-19, I won't be surprised if it costs more or less what that figure indicates.

Last known Cost of SoKo Black panther tank is almost 9 million US$. It is a well known fact that Arjun-Mk2 going to cost more(If I'm not wrong, statement of such kind was made in parliament). My point is - Cost increase is not alone due to inflation. It squarely reflects the tech advancement and type of sub systems it carries.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 31 Aug 2011 14:15

Well at current rates the XK2 is slightly more expensive. it comes in at ~41 crores whereas the cost of the Arjun Mk-2 as revealed in parliament is 37 crores.

On a different note, what you have just said is essentially what I am also saying.

You will find both "inflation" and "cutting edge" in my post. And naturally the defense industry ( supply chain wise) is globalized as Vic has observed with the MPVi thingy.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Aug 2011 16:53

none of Tata, M&M, AL have made MRAP/IFV/Scout vehicles in the past, so its not reasonable to expect them to come up with world class, cheap, desi made products from their first contract in this line of work. they will initially be the front end of some global level partners and source design and technology almost totally from abroad and many of the critical parts. if given good deals and letting some time elapse eventually the level of indigenisation and confidence in adapting designs will increase, and finally in the final stage they can leverage global parts vendors and come up and deliver their own original designs...just as BAE or KMW does.

its a 15-20 year process imo , but we need to feed all of them and get started, if we are to break free of the "issues" with the OFB and BEML

under the leadership of OFB & BEML we are guaranteed to occupy the bottom rung of military automotive sector for all time to come if we leave it as-is. we would be importing Willys Jeep level tech in 2075

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 01 Sep 2011 00:03

Kanson wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:MBT Arjun Mark-II to cost approximately Rs 37 crore

D Roy wrote:Now I guess people will realize why the FICV contract is going to be worth 12.5 billion for just 2610 vehicles.

inflation is a big issue in the defense industry and the FICV that is being planned is cutting edge.

by the time it rolls out in 2018-19, I won't be surprised if it costs more or less what that figure indicates.
Last known Cost of SoKo Black panther tank is almost 9 million US$. It is a well known fact that Arjun-Mk2 going to cost more(If I'm not wrong, statement of such kind was made in parliament). My point is - Cost increase is not alone due to inflation. It squarely reflects the tech advancement and type of sub systems it carries.

Now I think we need to scale up the estimated cast with net offerings, but I think we still not have a clear visage of net mk2 features in current time frame?..

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Sep 2011 04:45

rohitvats wrote:...

The RAPID stands for Re-Organized Assault Plains Infantry Divisions. As per Army Plan 2000 formulated in mid 80s by then Army Chief, General Sunderji, IA was to be mechanized en masse. What he had envisaged was 4 Armored Divisions, 8 Mechanized Divisions, 7 RAPIDs, 19 Mountain and 2 Air Assault Divisions.

...

For the IA to reach the above strength, that would have been formidable! But as you have pointed out, the cost has made it quite impossible to materialize. I wonder how much the IA had calculated the costs to be?

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 01 Sep 2011 06:48

> Now, coming to the role of Arjuns - well, one thing seems to be certain - the IA will not place Arjun in Punjab
> proper because the infra cannot handle the beast.
......
> As per d_berwal sahab, the plan is to convert all the three Armored Divisions to T-90.
> Which means that there are 4 RAPIDs, two (I) Armored Brigades and one (I) Mechanized Brigade in south
> of Punjab which can be candidates for new Arjun equipped Regiments.

If the reasoning provided that Arjuns cannot be deployed in Punjab proper due to infra is true then placing Arjuns in RAPIDs which are part of Strike Corps would limit their usage no? What would be the use of having a Strike Corps whose Armored Div (operating T-90s) can operate somewhere, where its accompanying RAPID (with Arjuns) cannot?

As per http://orbat.com/site/toe/toe/india/rapids.html the RAPIDs are with I,II and X Corp. The first two are Strike Corps with an Armored Division each.

If the above logic is true then if I and II Corp were to operate in Punjab, it better leave its RAPID behind.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Sep 2011 11:01

Bishwa wrote:> Now, coming to the role of Arjuns - well, one thing seems to be certain - the IA will not place Arjun in Punjab
> proper because the infra cannot handle the beast.
......
> As per d_berwal sahab, the plan is to convert all the three Armored Divisions to T-90.
> Which means that there are 4 RAPIDs, two (I) Armored Brigades and one (I) Mechanized Brigade in south
> of Punjab which can be candidates for new Arjun equipped Regiments.

If the reasoning provided that Arjuns cannot be deployed in Punjab proper due to infra is true then placing Arjuns in RAPIDs which are part of Strike Corps would limit their usage no? What would be the use of having a Strike Corps whose Armored Div (operating T-90s) can operate somewhere, where its accompanying RAPID (with Arjuns) cannot?

As per http://orbat.com/site/toe/toe/india/rapids.html the RAPIDs are with I,II and X Corp. The first two are Strike Corps with an Armored Division each.

If the above logic is true then if I and II Corp were to operate in Punjab, it better leave its RAPID behind.

I think you need to update you knowledge about Orbat a bit before making the above point.

The spread of RAPIDS -which I have considered - is as follows -

X Corps - 18 RAPID (Kota) and 24 RAPID (Bikaner)
XII Corps - 12 RAPID (Jodhpur - armored brigade in Jaisalmer)
XXI Corps - 36 RAPID (Sagar)

None of the above are likely to operate in anywhere in Punjab and hence, your argument does not hold. The wild card is RAPID with 21 Corps...with 31 Armored Div going the T-90 way, this one may, or may not go with Arjuns.

The other candidates, the (I) armored brigades are with X and XII Corps (one each). Again, they'll be very much south of Punjab.

I've not considered the RAPID with II Corps or I Corps in the analysis above.

However, all this is contingent on production of Arjuns reaching a healthy level of at least 2 Regiments per annum....if it sticks to 1 regiment per annum, well, we will have to wait real long to seen any large scale deployment of Arjuns in the IA.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Sep 2011 21:35

Any pics on the Arjun Mk-2 yet? ..would love to see how different it looks. the thing I have is this,.. if ddm can be contained for the release of mk-2 pics, then they can be also contained to release nonsensical information.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Sep 2011 22:02

>> 19 Mountain and 2 Air Assault Divisions.

the lizard would be shitting bricks if this were to happen. after the two new mountain divs and the mountain strike corps are raised will we have a grand total of 11 mountain divs and 0 airborne divs?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 04 Sep 2011 17:43

D Roy wrote:Well at current rates the XK2 is slightly more expensive. it comes in at ~41 crores whereas the cost of the Arjun Mk-2 as revealed in parliament is 37 crores.

On a different note, what you have just said is essentially what I am also saying.

You will find both "inflation" and "cutting edge" in my post. And naturally the defense industry ( supply chain wise) is globalized as Vic has observed with the MPVi thingy.

I advise against myself even speculating on the Mk2's system capabilities. So I try to reiterate and underline and by bringing in Xk2 example to point out that price rise is more due to its capabilities that you also mentioned. And I'm not sure we can draw any parallels with MPV thing.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 04 Sep 2011 19:40

Naturally, it would be unwise to draw parallels with the MPVi on systems engineering or tech dev.

But, there is this whole thing about imported content. and a lot of that can be very expensive.

Going forward, till such time we have a massive pvt def manufacturing base, some of our cutting edge systems may be a little expensive owing to the need to tap the global supply chain and associated inflationary costs thereof.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Sep 2011 20:07

Singha wrote:>> 19 Mountain and 2 Air Assault Divisions.

the lizard would be shitting bricks if this were to happen. after the two new mountain divs and the mountain strike corps are raised will we have a grand total of 11 mountain divs and 0 airborne divs?

Actually, what I should have written was Air Assault Divisions.

And there is no way we're getting an airborne division or Air Assault Division any time soon. We hardly have assets to get an a Para Bde going at one go....forget an entire division. As for Air Assault, it is simply too expensive. And before we reach a AA Division level capability, we need to get (I) Air Assault Bdes going. My gut feel is that the 12,000 Crore bill for the new Corps+2 divisions in NE factos into account organic helicopter assets. May be, each div may have integral air assualt bde + assets to airlift light howitzers.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Sep 2011 20:13

we also have to count the marine brigades that are forming/planned.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 06 Sep 2011 08:37

This video is about FDN-1 at ANC.

but that's not why I am posting it here. towards the beginning of the video you will get a rare glimpse of an Indian BTR-60.

Apologies if posted earlier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YM985No ... ure=relmfu

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Sep 2011 15:34

Ukraine sold $ 200 million to Thailand tanks

Ukraine will supply Thailand 49 newest tank "Oplot". This was reported by UNIAN with reference to the official website of the State company "ukrspecexport". In accordance with the message, September 1, 2011, Ukrspetsexport signed a contract with representatives of the armed forces of the Kingdom of Thailand on the supply of new party vehicle. The parties agreed that Ukraine will manufacture and supply in Thailand 49 units main battle tank (MBT) "Stronghold". The total contract value exceeds 200 million. DOL. To comply with the order will be companies that became part of the State company "Ukroboronprom". In previous years, in a statement, "Ukrspecèksportom" were entered into an agreement with the Kingdom of Thailand for the supply of the BTR-3e1 Ukrainian manufacture.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Sep 2011 09:55

PIB:T-72 Tanks

The T-72 Tank fleet is fully operational in the Indian Army. Out of the total holding of the tanks, a part of it is already equipped with high end technology night vision device. Further, the process of upgrading the night fighting capabilities with the state-of-the-art thermal imaging is an ongoing process.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Sep 2011 09:56

The Fiery Heart of the Russian Tanks

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Sep 2011 10:14

Do we have pictures of T-72 upgrade with Thermal Imagers ?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 08 Sep 2011 12:00

D Roy wrote:you will get a rare glimpse of an Indian BTR-60

Czech OT-64. Visually similar to BTR-60 but internally very different. India never inducted BTR-60. India had a bad experience with wheeled APC that were less versatile than tracked in all terrains and these were retired early. Used as memorials, similar to the one at Andamans, there is one at NCC grounds in Pune on Bhandarkar Road next to Symbiosis. Only wheeled vehicles in service are BRDM 2 used for recce.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 08 Sep 2011 14:04

the OT-64 is visually quite distinguishable from a BTR-60. The body shaping is different, for instance there is an extra housing between the two fore wheels and rear wheels on an OT-64 which are spaced out.

What you see in the video is pretty much a BTR-60.

The following link shows you an OT-64:

http://www.warwheels.net/images/OT64SKO ... RIDGE1.jpg

and this one:

http://www.military-today.com/apc/ot_64_skot.jpg

This is a BTR-60
http://www.armyrecognition.com/Russe/ve ... sse_02.jpg

and this is a lineup of Indian BTR-60s

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/29/89384 ... 32f6_o.jpg along with OT-62 Topaz

India did induct the BTR-60 as well as Skots but had to retire them prematurely, as you have observed generally with respect to wheeled vehicles in the IA.

but internally very different.

Obviously. They are two different vehicles altogether. And what you see in the video is pretty much a BTR-60.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Sep 2011 10:04

T-90MS Unveilled At Nizhny Tagil

some photos of the event

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/15/54/62/79/t-90mc11.jpg
http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/15/54/62/79/t-90mc12.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j39 ... 33/5-3.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j39 ... 33/8-1.jpg
http://i54.tinypic.com/axy891.jpg
http://foto.rg.ru/gall/images/466f24c0/224dd085.jpg
http://foto.rg.ru/gall/images/466f24c0/7a5ede59.jpg
http://foto.rg.ru/gall/images/466f24c0/7e04499a.jpg
http://foto.rg.ru/gall/images/466f24c0/e2c57ac8.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j39 ... _34_06.jpg

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Sep 2011 10:09

Few details emerged on the new T-90MS from Gur Khan Blog

http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2011/09/blog-post_10.html

1> T-90 a new Turret with enhanced protection of frontal projection, roof and sides.
2> Has new ERA "Relic" It has an improved ability to withstand modern sabot projectiles and HEAT rounds
3> Can withstand current and future anti-tank weapons , The level of protection of the new tank exceeds any competitor
4> Weight increased by less than 2 Tons , Tanks weighs a little more than 48 T
5 > T-90MS new fire control system "Kalina" is equal to the best world samples
6 > Has implemented auto tracking of Targets
7> The gunner has combined thermal sight, laser and optical channels. The commander has a panoramic Thermal/multi-channel scope.
8> The tank has a single automated control system at the tactical level. it is able to exchange information and receive indication from other machines Battalion ( BMS )
9> Has satellite navigation system GLONASS-GPS and modern means of communication.
10> T-90MS can be fitted with an existing gun or new gun of high power 125 mm caliber
11> Has ammunition capacity of 40 rounds , in secure underfloor loader and rear bustle reducing the risk to the crew
12 >T-90MS has a new 1130 horsepower engine
13> Has electronic automatic gear change and motion control using steering wheel

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 10 Sep 2011 10:44

DRoy, this is interesting. I always thought both wheeled APCs were versions of OT-64.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 10 Sep 2011 10:56

I see one Sardarji in this one. Being the largest user apart from Russia surely we must have been keen on this.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Sep 2011 11:03

Does anyone has an idea abuot how many T-90 we have in service? Have the first two tranches of 310 and 347 completely inducted?What is the status of third tranche of ~300 odd tanks?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Sep 2011 12:43

looks like we need to cancel the arjun and order 1000 more of T90MS - it has finally reached the level of kit western MBTs did in 1991 mashallah...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Sep 2011 15:56

Austin wrote:Few details emerged on the new T-90MS from Gur Khan Blog

<SNIP>

11> Has ammunition capacity of 40 rounds , in secure underfloor loader and rear bustle reducing the risk to the crew
<SNIP>

What does this mean?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Sep 2011 16:15

rohitvats wrote:
Austin wrote:Few details emerged on the new T-90MS from Gur Khan Blog

<SNIP>

11> Has ammunition capacity of 40 rounds , in secure underfloor loader and rear bustle reducing the risk to the crew
<SNIP>
e

What does this mean?

22 rounds in the underfloor loader and the rounds inside the turret has been moved to the rear turret bustle which carries 18 rounds.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Sep 2011 22:29

^^^So, no bustle auto-loader, as claimed by some usual suspects? As it is, the rear section of the turret does not seem broad and long enough to house the bustle auto-loader. Still, much better product compared to T-90 in our service.

And if there is no bustle-autoloader and additional armor is external add-on, it means that older T-90 in our service can undergo modification w/o structural changes.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Sep 2011 22:41

rohitvats wrote:^^^So, no bustle auto-loader, as claimed by some usual suspects? As it is, the rear section of the turret does not seem broad and long enough to house the bustle auto-loader. Still, much better product compared to T-90 in our service.

Yes no rear bustle loader , if they had one they would have ended up with two loaders ... there is a feeding mechanism to feed ammo into under floor loader. but we need to wait for more information.

And if there is no bustle-autoloader and additional armor is external add-on, it means that older T-90 in our service can undergo modification w/o structural changes.

Possible or its just more easier to build a new one.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Sep 2011 02:56

So, 90MS vs Kanchan anyone?

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 11 Sep 2011 05:46

Looks like they also finally have a muzzle refence system. Never seen that on a Russian tank before. Never got a response to my query in the past as to why this common staple on western tanks (and Arjun) is (was) absent on Russian tanks.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Sep 2011 22:24

With the Arjun Mk1 numbers likely to be capped at 124 and another 124 of Mk2 (which are yet to be user trialled and likely to go under production in 2013), one wonders what numbers of Arjun Mk-X are we going to see in IA service till 2020?

Consider this - we have 124 operational Arjuns (2 Regiments) and another 124 planned. Now, the production rate stands at 50 per annum and as per Ajai Shukla's blog, this was to ramped up one full regiment (62 units). So, from 2013-105, we can expect another two regiments (the 124 Mk--II indented on HVF). Assuming, dring this time, we go upto 100 units per annum, between 2015-2020 we are going to see another 500 odd Arjun Mk-II. So, we have grand total of ~750 Arjuns in service.

Now, there are 2,418 T-72 in IA service plus some ~500 odd T-55. The planned number of T-90 is 1,647 units. So, while these T-90s will allow for T-55 and older T-72s to be phased out, we are still left with ~1,200 odd T-72 units. IA is supposed to planning deep-upgrade of these units - which is more comprehensive than CIA upgrade of DRDO and IMO, on top of the CIA package.

So, the number is 1,647 T-90, 1,200 T-72 and ~750 odd Arjuns. That makes it ~3,600 MBTs. We need another ~1,000 units and here, I have a feeling that more T-90 are going to sneak in.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 12 Sep 2011 05:39

My understanding is Avadi has capacity 150 units per year.To solve the issue of shortage entire production line of the Avadi can be immediately converted into Arjun line with a firm commitment or large order with stipulations for upgrades as the production goes. Entire T90 order can be purchased from Russia so that there is no need for us ot waste time of assembling the kits here in India. I do not think there is any cost benifit and lot of time can be saves. If the present production line of 50 at Avadi can be converted into 150 by say 2013, then by 2020 we will have 1050 ( 7 years at 150) plus 100 (2 years at 50) totalling 1150 Arjuns MkII.

When we have ordered some 126 aircrafts at one go i do not see any reason why a product which was tested to the unimginable extent and passed the tests should be orders in small no's.But i guess it is never going to happen.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2011 05:45

BEML has manufactured arjuns in the past(pre production version) and I am sure other public and pvt org's will jump at the offer. production rate need not be a hindrance.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 Sep 2011 07:34

^^^

That is based on the assumption that the IA wants the Arjuns to serve in large numbers. We don't know, if that is the case. However, it is clear that the IA wants the T90 to serve in large numbers and have made it clear to any one who cares to listen & watch.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Sep 2011 08:28

T-90MS Upgrade Booklet ( via http://gurkhan.blogspot.com)

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