Pakistani Minorities - Should India Feel Responsible?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 09:34

In Pakistan, all minorities are oppressed. Pakistani Christians too are oppressed. Any human would feel sympathy for the plight of such people who have to endure such discrimination and intimidation at the hands of the increasingly radicalized Pakistani majority.

However the resources of India are limited, and India has to be selective in what responsibilities India is willing to shoulder!

So I am putting up this question for the consideration of BRFites in view of the expected tragedy in Pakistan!

So, should India provide the Pakistani Christian Minority with the same facilities as to Pakistani Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists?

Added Later: I have changed the title for a broader discussion. The Question however remains the same.
**************

Added Later: After some more thinking, I've had to change the parameters of the question. I am sorry!

Those I consider eligible
Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists?, Goans, Thomas Christians?.

Those I consider not eligible:
Muslims (of all sects including Ahmediyyas), Pakistani Christians (except see above), Baha'is, Parsees, etc.

So the question above does not pertain to Goans (who coincidentally happen to be Christians) or to Thomas Christians (of which there are none in Pakistan).

If anybody wishes to re-vote, he is free to do so!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 09:34

pgbhat wrote:Long-term Indian visas for Pak Xians
Christians of Indian origin who live in Pakistan will now be entitled to long term visas to India, Goa’s Commissioner for NRI Affairs Eduardo Faleiro said.

The Union Home Ministry recently added Christians and Buddhists to the list of Indian-origin minorities in Pakistan that would be allowed long-term visas (LTVs). Only Hindus and Sikhs were earlier entitled to this privilege.

This may sound humane and understandable, but this sets up a very wrong precedent.

Firstly, I've never heard of any Buddhists in Pakistan, and it sounds more like a scheme to accept Pakistani Christians into India by bundling them together with Buddhists.

This sets up a wrong precedent, because at some point in time, the question of asylum and refuge to Pakistani minorities will be raised. And those minorities who are now bundled together as Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Christians all of them would be accepted for consideration.

But the question is why should Pakistani Christians be given this privilege. I hope for all the best for them and wish them security and good health. But why should India accept them? There are certainly other countries in the world, who feel more bonded to their brothers in Christianity - countries like Italy, USA, and others.

It is these countries which should be forthcoming on the question of Christians. If these countries can send missionaries to convert the populace, surely they can also open their hearts and hearths to the oppressed Christians in Pakistan.

India should be forthcoming regarding the Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists from Pakistan. These faiths were born in India, and as such India has a special responsibility towards the oppressed adherents of these faiths - at least as far providing succor to the adherents is concerned. But India has not responsibility towards oppressed Christians of the world. There are many other countries, who can take up the slack. Should the humanitarian responsibility towards Pakistan not be fairly divided in the "international community"?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Sep 2011 09:57

Voted No, the Indian nation must have nothing to do with the minority population of neighboring country. They are the responsibility of the respective nations. Let them find a way to deal with them. The way it fits their ethos and cultural belief systems.

However, I have no issues if the Indian useful idiots are exported to TSP to solve its problems.

If they get annihilated while trying to solve TSP minority issue then so be it.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 01 Sep 2011 10:10

No. We have our own citizens to worry about.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 10:18

Continuing from TSP Thread

sanjaykumar wrote:
RajeshA wrote:It is these countries which should be forthcoming on the question of Christians. If these countries can send missionaries to convert the populace, surely they can also open their hearts and hearths to the oppressed Christians in Pakistan.
No doubt they will be in India a short time. En route to securing their privileged positions in Christian lands (unlike their low status in India as dal eats. I understand they automatically become same same with the majority in casteless advanced societies. Phir bhi, until they get their exit visas, they should be welcomed.

Well it is not certain that Christian lands would really provide asylum to Pakistani Christians! Secondly not all would be provided asylum, and those who do not get asylum would end up in India.

Most importantly, if these Pakistani Christians are already in India, why should the Christian lands feel morally obliged to give any asylum to them, as they already know they are in safety.

It is also not the case that Christian lands allow all Christians to migrate these lands. Otherwise all Christian Africans would be living happily in Europe, or Mexicans in United States.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 01 Sep 2011 10:22

I am going to offer a contrarian view, as I often love to do:

RajeshA, you have suggested that countries such as Italy, the USA and others, might rightly be first to give asylum to Pakistani Christians seeking refuge from extremism in Pakistan. I am surmising that the reason for this opinion of yours is that you see these countries as more Christian than India, and that's not a point I care to debate (although, I could).

What I would like to point out, however, is that Christianity is actually older in India, than it is in Italy or in the US. If you go by the official account (just for the sake of argument); when Christ was put to the cross, Christianity was a small cult of followers in 'Judea', and had no penetration in Italy whatsoever. After the "last supper", Thomas the apostle fled, and by many accounts, wound-up in India some years later, when Italy had still not seen a single Christian. (Some Christian scholars even suggest that Christ had been to India prior to his being noticed in his homeland, which is where he acquired many aspects of what became his teachings.)

Obviously, Christianity didn't reach the Americas until after Colombo (aka Columbus); and by then, Christianity had been in India for over a thousand years.

As for which country is more Christ-like; Italy, the United States or India; I'll leave that to you to decide for yourself. IMO, India is definitely more Christ-like than either of those two countries; which is one reason why I think that India should give refuge to asylum seekers from Pakistan. The other reasons being it may have its advantages, in terms of intelligence gathering and the potential for economic inflows; plus it's the humanitarian thing to do.

To just reject the idea outright, likely because of sore feelings stirred-up by evangelical Christian missionaries, is unjustified, and IMHO, beneath the dignity of India -- but that's just my opinion.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 01 Sep 2011 10:32

^^^ As regards the Apostle Thomas, the story is in all likelihood a fabrication. But let us set that aside.

If the Church organizational machinery and hierarchy [in most denominations] functions as a political tool for western elites, how would that affect one's view of this issue?

It might be a good idea to help Pakistani Christians stand on their own feet inside Pakistan.

Secondly, I think we should work to increase awareness amongst all Christians worldwide, including in India, about the hijacking by elite interests of the organized practice of their faith.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 01 Sep 2011 10:38

Long term visas are sought for Pakistanis of Goan origin. I have seen the plight of Muslims from Kerala, who went to Karachi for work (early forties to fifties) and had to take up Pakistani passport to get an Indian Visa. Old men who yearn to be back in their homeland, has to face difficulties like reporting to the police station every week, and not move to another village without informing the police station. Similar is the case of a number of Goans, most of them, over 65 years of age, who want to come back to their homeland for good.
We should allow their repatriation, on compassionate grounds.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 01 Sep 2011 10:43

menon s wrote:Long term visas are sought for Pakistanis of Goan origin.

That would be different, but what is the exact wording of the order?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 10:54

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:What I would like to point out, however, is that Christianity is actually older in India, than it is in Italy or in the US.

Are there any Thomas Christians in Pakistan? Or are the Christians in Pakistan the result of proselytization from quarters other than Thomas Christians?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 10:58

menon s wrote:Long term visas are sought for Pakistanis of Goan origin.

Similar is the case of a number of Goans, most of them, over 65 years of age, who want to come back to their homeland for good.
We should allow their repatriation, on compassionate grounds.

I am just curious. What were Goan Christians doing all this time in Pakistan?

Either they would be Goan Muslims, if there are any such who migrated to Pakistan who would want to return, in which case they should be considered the same way Mohajirs are treated from Gangetic Valley. Or they are just Christians local to that region and have nothing to do with Goans, in which case Goa, or any other part of India should not feel responsible for them.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 01 Sep 2011 11:01

Only if they convert to Hinduism.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Sep 2011 11:04

Goan Christians chose to abandon India during the liberation of Goa, for Pakistan.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 01 Sep 2011 11:07

^^^ Check out this website.
http://goansofpakistan.org/index.htm

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Sep 2011 11:08

..meanwhile in India

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Sep 2011 11:25

We all know who is behind this move to create a mini xtian ummah

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 01 Sep 2011 11:27

^^^^^ Hey that near my place in Bangalore. Frazer Town. The guy on the right side with glasses is my corporator Zakir Bhai.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Sep 2011 11:36

Yes and No.Yes,as we are deeply concerned for the numan race on the planet,and "no man is an island...the bell tolls for thee".If you take that viewpoint,but the matter is clearly an internal affair of Pakistan,a sovereign state.If we make out official protests for Paki Xians,then the Pakis have every right to similarly make out protests for Indian Muslims.We can express our anguish at the plight of minorities as a well-wisher,neighbour and as Pak is a fellow member of SAARC,but even i8n SAARC there are clear guidelines and rules for members.

But how are we "responsible" for any such ill-treatment of any paki minority? That is the will and pleasure of the Paki state,its rulers and parliament,military and key policy makers to treat like "untermenschen" the Ahmediyas,X'ians,Shias,Mhajirs,etc.,etc.

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 01 Sep 2011 11:39

First it will be hindus and sikhs, then the christians, then ahmediyyas and shias and then RAPEs and finally the average paki abdul.
India is secular onlee. You allow refugees from pureland now, later the WKKs will allow all the paki scum and whatever little progress India has achieved over past 60 years will go down the drain.
I say don't allow any refugees from any country on any grounds. I think we have more than enough people to take care within India itself.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 01 Sep 2011 11:59

The Crown created pakistan and should assume responsibility. Better still
US that publishes comments that suggest minorities in India are
persecuted should not put these Christians in harms way and instead step
up to the plate and offer them a home.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 12:52

menon s wrote:^^^ Check out this website.
http://goansofpakistan.org/index.htm

menon s ji,

thanks for sharing that link.

I was not aware of the Goa connection to Karachi.

Since Goa was integrated into India much later than Indian Partition, perhaps one can have a different set of rules for those Goans who were not in Goa at the time of Goa's Liberation. Perhaps India can indeed offer all such Goans, who did not live in Goa in 1961, a one-time chance of taking Indian citizenship, regardless of where they are, including Pakistan.

But this must be clear, that it is a facility because of the circumstances of Goa's accession to India, and not because this is a facility extended to Christians per se.

I would prefer that these Goans make a decision finally whether they want to be Indians or Pakistanis. It is preferable that there are no Pakistanis of any sort with one leg in India and one leg in Pakistan.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 01 Sep 2011 12:57

Beg to differ here. If their origins are from/lineage can be traced to present day India , then I think it is only fair to welcome them back.

The argument can also be used to offer the same facilities for Paki abduls. But the difference is that partition was done precisely for those reasons. So abdul Paki , please stay put.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 01 Sep 2011 13:10

^^^^ Im not saying we need to absorb all Pakistanis of Goan origin, But to accept the old and infirm, on compassionate grounds.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 01 Sep 2011 13:12

India will not be able to accept only Hindus & christians and keep the mango abdul out if we were to process requests for asylum from TSP because our laws do not give preference or discriminate against any religion. Better keep all pakis away. Say NO to pakis. IMHO.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Sep 2011 14:06

Even though they are in trouble in Pakistan, I would like to point out one simple fact. India has allowed Christianity as a religion to come and be part of India. But the kind of hatred that's shown towards anything Indian and Indian culture by some of the pastors make me feel that it's only going to increase the tension in the society more that do anything good. We have no responsibility for any Pakistani, but if the Pakis are kicking out people of Indian faiths, they have nowhere to go and can be accepted. Their inclusion will not harm India even in the long run. But none else be allowed. It's none of our business. May be Rome can accept the Pakistani Christians.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Sep 2011 14:14

The funniest particle from the article is here
These enterprising people from Goa of pre-partition India have been living and working here, a sleepy fishing village-turned-megacity, since that time. They did not look back in their quest for a new homeland and prosperity, gave off their best, excelled in everything they touched, grew in numbers and affluence but gradually lost interest. Large number of families, like gypsies and nomads moved on, in search of greener pastures, leaving behind their trademark talents and footprints on the country of their choice, in this case, Pakistan. Though they have long gone, drifted away from the shores of their country, they will always have a little Pakistan in their hearts.

A recent email from Brian Gonsalves, a Goan from Karachi who now lives on the Island of Margarita, Venezuela, says it all. He writes, "My House in Venezuela is called 'Pakistan' - how is that for patriotism!!"

Added later: And the enemy Indians are rescuing and welcoming them now.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Sep 2011 14:20

menon s wrote:Long term visas are sought for Pakistanis of Goan origin. I have seen the plight of Muslims from Kerala, who went to Karachi for work (early forties to fifties) and had to take up Pakistani passport to get an Indian Visa. Old men who yearn to be back in their homeland, has to face difficulties like reporting to the police station every week, and not move to another village without informing the police station. Similar is the case of a number of Goans, most of them, over 65 years of age, who want to come back to their homeland for good.
We should allow their repatriation, on compassionate grounds.

Who asked him to accept Jinnah's two nation theory and migrate to Pakistan. When he realized that it's the most stupid thing in the world, then only he want to be Indian?
And what about mercy for Kasab on compassionate grounds?
Hell with compassion. You give compassion and I had not seen Indians getting any compassion from anyone. Even the Durga pandal was closed down by the Italian police {May be because it's anti-Christ}. Everyone can be brutal towards Indians, and Indians are supposed to show compassion love for others as usual.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 14:32

Some links to old post by me on the subject, just for my reference sake. Useful for me as jump points into past discussions.

Boscoe · Post by **Boscoe** » 01 Sep 2011 15:43

So are some of you guys trying to imply that I as an Indian Goan Christian am in any way less Indian than my Hindu or Sikh brothers, and therefore my relatives should not have the option of returning to India?

Let me remind you that prior to the liberation of Goa it was a lot easier to travel to Karachi than to Bombay, and a number of Goans went there in search of employment just as a number of Goans had moved to Bombay prior to 1947. Those that had moved to Bombay were fortunate in so far as they could continue to visit Goa however those that had moved to Karachi were unable to revisit their homeland. Now they have an opportunity to do so.

Anyway, Goans from Karachi will travel to Goa, and we will look after them, and if you are a non Goan it should not concern you, as no Gujarati, or UPite or Delhiwala or Mumbaikar or whatever will need to spend a dime on them, as we Goans will look after our own.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 15:45

Published on May 31, 2009
By J.G. Arora
Helpless Hindus of Pakistan and Bangladesh: Organizer

In 1950, Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan signed an agreement called the Nehru Liaqat Pact under which both the governments undertook to protect life, liberty, religion and safety of the minorities in each other’s country.

But the government in India is doing nothing in the ongoing genocide and deprivation of Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

It is the Indian government’s legal and moral duty to ensure that as per the Nehru-Liaqat Pact of 1950, and as per the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Pakistan and Bangladesh treat their minorities in a human manner. India must also ask Bangladesh to repeal the Vested Properties Act, and restore the lands and properties of Hindus to Hindus.

The United Nations Commission on Human Rights must also be approached to redeem the situation. Denial of human rights to Hindus violates UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948.

In Pakistan and Bangladesh, Hindus have only the right to suffer and right to silence. Shockingly, the tragedy of Hindus of Pakistan and Bangladesh remains untold by Indian main stream media.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 15:47

Boscoe ji,

From the article it was not clear whether it was an issue of just Goans or of Christians in general. I addressed the issue about Goans in an earlier post.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 15:52

Liaquat-Nehru Pact 1950

Pact from April 6, 1950 for the protection of minorities.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 15:54

I do feel the Indian nation is obliged to show sympathy for those Dharmics, who were left behind in Pakistan at the time of Partition - Sikhs and Hindus. They stayed behind, either to take care of Dharmic places of worship or historical relevance - mandirs, gurdwaras, etc. Many stayed behind because they were too poor to make the journey. While many stayed behind, because it was their land.

Pakistan is simply "Pakistan occupied Western Indian"! It was a failure of the Dharmics, that we let it be occupied. It was to some extent also expediency that we allowed it to separate, so that within the present contours of India, the Dharmics could prosper.

So Hindus and Sikhs who are still in Pakistan, are there because of Dharmic weakness. In today's world, if India feels that countries should not interfere in each other's internal affairs, then fine, one can say that we cannot tell Pakistan how to treat its minorities, just as we would not like to be told by Pakistan how to treat our minorities. But if the Dharmics who got stuck in Pakistan now want to flee the country, because they can't take it anymore, should we also deny them asylum?! If we can't liberate their lands, then at least we should manage to offer them some liberation.

So we have a civilizational responsibility towards the Hindus and Sikhs who were left behind. This civilizational responsibility does not extend towards the Pakistan Christians however except may be to Thomas Christians. But we would hardly be seeing Thomas Christians in Pakistan.

2) Goa which acceded later in 1961, can claim that it was not part of the Liaquat-Nehru Pact of 1950, and as such Goans need to be treated differently, and Pakistani Goans be accepted in India.

Boscoe · Post by **Boscoe** » 01 Sep 2011 16:04

Another bit of GK, Did you guys know that Christianity was in India long before the first Christian was baptised in Europe, an that there was a thriving Christian community in the South of India hundreds of years before the first European Missionary / Invader set foot on Indian soil?

One of Jesus's apostle St. Thomas is interred in present day Chennai.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 16:06

Boscoe wrote:Another bit of GK, Did you guys know that Christianity was in India long before the first Christian was baptised in Europe, an that there was a thriving Christian community in the South of India hundreds of years before the first European Missionary / Invader set foot on Indian soil?

One of Jesus's apostle St. Thomas is interred in present day Chennai.

Yes we all know that! It has been spoken about often on the forum, including on this thread! Please read the thread.

BTW, Goans are not Thomas Christians. They are Catholics.

Boscoe · Post by **Boscoe** » 01 Sep 2011 16:13

Thomas Christians is now the Malabar Church, and to my knowledge it is now integrated into the Roman Catholic Church. I stopped going to Church about 15 years ago, so I could be wrong.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Sep 2011 16:21

Boscoe wrote:Thomas Christians is now the Malabar Church, and to my knowledge it is now integrated into the Roman Catholic Church. I stopped going to Church about 15 years ago, so I could be wrong.

That is wrong. Thomas Christians have several divisions:

None belong to the Roman Catholic Church, however some belong to the Eastern Catholic Church, which is autonomous and self-governing.

Goans are however Roman Catholic, and cannot claim theological descent from St. Thomas.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 01 Sep 2011 16:51

Boscoe wrote:Another bit of GK, Did you guys know that Christianity was in India long before the first Christian was baptised in Europe, an that there was a thriving Christian community in the South of India hundreds of years before the first European Missionary / Invader set foot on Indian soil?

One of Jesus's apostle St. Thomas is interred in present day Chennai.

OT but this St.Thomas being interred in Chennai is now acknowledged everywhere to be a myth.
Please do not confuse the Thomas Christians with the apostle

Boscoe · Post by **Boscoe** » 01 Sep 2011 16:51

There is only one Catholic Church, and that is the Roman Catholic Church. so as I see it 2 of those denominations are now part of the Catholic Church.

Boscoe · Post by **Boscoe** » 01 Sep 2011 16:56

Neela wrote:
Boscoe wrote:Another bit of GK, Did you guys know that Christianity was in India long before the first Christian was baptised in Europe, an that there was a thriving Christian community in the South of India hundreds of years before the first European Missionary / Invader set foot on Indian soil?

One of Jesus's apostle St. Thomas is interred in present day Chennai.
OT but this St.Thomas being interred in Chennai is now acknowledged everywhere to be a myth.
Please do not confuse the Thomas Christians with the apostle

I have been to the church in Chennai where the tomb of St Thomas is displayed. I dont know if its actually him in here, but I have seen whats is supposed to be his burrial place

Should India treat the Pakistani Christian Minority similarly as P. Hindus & Sikhs?