Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 31 Aug 2011 17:27

Atri ji, IMHO you are very fortunate to have friends who can converse with you in a manner close to your spiritual inclination. I personally found 3 & 4 was closest to me, given these set of circumstances. For the record, even the supposedly mighty Duryodhana did not want to live on as a cripple after his urubhanga (according to a certain version of MB), he tells so to his parents post-sunset on the 18th day of the battle. Looking at your sister's incident from that backdrop makes one want to re-evaluate his/her present stance with respect to circumstances.

Another poster Naren would also be closely drawn to the underlying theme of your post.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 31 Aug 2011 18:17

Klaus wrote:Atri ji, IMHO you are very fortunate to have friends who can converse with you in a manner close to your spiritual inclination. I personally found 3 & 4 was closest to me, given these set of circumstances. For the record, even the supposedly mighty Duryodhana did not want to live on as a cripple after his urubhanga (according to a certain version of MB), he tells so to his parents post-sunset on the 18th day of the battle. Looking at your sister's incident from that backdrop makes one want to re-evaluate his/her present stance with respect to circumstances.

Another poster Naren would also be closely drawn to the underlying theme of your post.

thanks klaus ji. 4 is my personal favourite too. One of the enlightened soul. I was just trying to share my experiences of "Vishaad-yoga" with surya ji.. Vishaad-yoga is addressed by various explanations which convinces us to "keep buggering on". Krishna had to tell 18 chapters to counsel arjuna in 17 different philosophies, at the end of which he was convinced to "keep buggering on". If I were arjuna, I would have been convinced by 2nd chapter itself.

, but then there are others who will be convinced by 4th, 5th, 10th, 15th, 18th.. People of all prakritis need to be addressed.

Of course, there always are problems in life and vishaad yoga comes on many occasions. But some salvage operations, simply stick in memory for ever.. as of the present stance of my sister, she isn't crippled, thanks to the prosthetic rod in her femur (which is still there). it does pain once in a while when it gets cold, or if she stands and walks for too long and too hard. but for all normal daily routine, she is as good as anyone else.

Duryodhana was class apart. He was a kshatriya who was almost 90 years old. defeated by his most detested enemy whom he tried to kill since childhood and did unspeakable things to the 5 cousins. he had his reasons of wishing death, apart from lprospects of leading a humiliating life of being crippled. Sometimes, the ego of some men is so huge that, it dwarfs everything else. Duryodhana was at different stage of life. In this case, her entire life lay ahead. the will to live is so strong that it does not leave even after death and causes the rebirth.

Buddha says, there in lies the rub..

in words of harivanshrai bachchan

नाश के भय से कभी दबता नहीं निर्माण का सुख
प्रलय की निस्तब्धतामें सृष्टि का नवगान फिर फिर...

Yes, I miss naren ji.. wonder where he is these days..

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 01 Sep 2011 12:20

CANTO 12,Chapter 1-Srimad Bhagvatam-

Then will eight Yavanas follow, fourteen Turushkas (interpret as Turks) and furthermore ten Gurundas (Interpret as Sikhs) and eleven Maulas (Interpret as Maulas who supported the Moghul Empire). (29-31) These [first six dynasties] will rule the earth for one thousand ninety-nine years, and the eleven Maulas will rule for three hundred years (approx duration of Moghul rule), my dear. With them all dead and gone in the city of Kilakilâ (is it Kolkata?) for one-hundred-and-six years the kings Bhûtananda followed by Vangiri (VV Giri?) with next S'is'unandi and then his brother Yas'onandi and Pravîraka will rule. (32-33) To them [the Kilakilâs] thirteen sons will be born called the Bâhlikas after whom Pushpamitra and next his son king Durmitra as well as also seven Andhras, seven Kaus'alas and also the rulers of Vidûra and the Nishadhas then in the same period will reign. (34) In the province of Mâgadha Vis'vasphûrji (VP Singh?) will appear, who like another Purañjaya will turn the people of all classes into inferior Pulindas, Yadus and Madrakas [low-class, uncivilized men, see *4]. (35) The unintelligent king, who protected in the city of Padmavatî will rule over the earth from the source of the Gangâ to Prayâga, will, predominantly being unbrahminical with the citizens, ruin the almighty class of the kshatriyas. (36) The twice-born living in the provinces S'aurâshthra, Avantî, Âbhîra, S'ûra, Arbuda and Mâlava will [at that time] fall away from their vows and the ones ranking first among the people will become no better than s'ûdras. (37) The lands at the river Sindhu, as well as the districts of Candrabhâgâ, Kauntî and Kâs'mîra, will be ruled by uncivilized men [mlecchas or the non-hindus], s'ûdras and others who, lacking spiritual strength, deviate from the standard.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Sep 2011 18:59

Klaus, Please elaborate on the above two rishis in your post.

Thanks, ramana

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Sep 2011 19:07

sanjeevpunj wrote:CANTO 12,Chapter 1-Srimad Bhagvatam-
Then will eight Yavanas follow, fourteen Turushkas (interpret as Turks) and furthermore ten Gurundas (Interpret as Sikhs) and eleven Maulas (Interpret as Maulas who supported the Moghul Empire). (29-31) These [first six dynasties] will rule the earth for one thousand ninety-nine years, and the eleven Maulas will rule for three hundred years (approx duration of Moghul rule), my dear. With them all dead and gone in the city of Kilakilâ (is it Kolkata?) for one-hundred-and-six years the kings Bhûtananda followed by Vangiri (VV Giri?) with next S'is'unandi and then his brother Yas'onandi and Pravîraka will rule. (32-33) To them [the Kilakilâs] thirteen sons will be born called the Bâhlikas after whom Pushpamitra and next his son king Durmitra as well as also seven Andhras, seven Kaus'alas and also the rulers of Vidûra and the Nishadhas then in the same period will reign. (34) In the province of Mâgadha Vis'vasphûrji (VP Singh?) will appear, who like another Purañjaya will turn the people of all classes into inferior Pulindas, Yadus and Madrakas [low-class, uncivilized men, see *4]. (35) The unintelligent king, who protected in the city of Padmavatî will rule over the earth from the source of the Gangâ to Prayâga, will, predominantly being unbrahminical with the citizens, ruin the almighty class of the kshatriyas. (36) The twice-born living in the provinces S'aurâshthra, Avantî, Âbhîra, S'ûra, Arbuda and Mâlava will [at that time] fall away from their vows and the ones ranking first among the people will become no better than s'ûdras. (37) The lands at the river Sindhu, as well as the districts of Candrabhâgâ, Kauntî and Kâs'mîra, will be ruled by uncivilized men [mlecchas or the non-hindus], s'ûdras and others who, lacking spiritual strength, deviate from the standard.

Great Sanjeev. Have you checked out any of Nostradamus' prophecies? I am also interested in the so called "occult" sciences.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 01 Sep 2011 21:02

rajanb wrote: Great Sanjeev. Have you checked out any of Nostradamus' prophecies? I am also interested in the so called "occult" sciences.

Rajanb ji, I tried reading and understanding Nostradamus, but the language is little difficult to handle. Srimad Bhagvatam on the other hand is not too specific and requires a deep study.What sort of occult sciences arouse your interests?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Sep 2011 21:30

sanjeevpunj wrote:
rajanb wrote: Great Sanjeev. Have you checked out any of Nostradamus' prophecies? I am also interested in the so called "occult" sciences.
Rajanb ji, I tried reading and understanding Nostradamus, but the language is little difficult to handle. Srimad Bhagvatam on the other hand is not too specific and requires a deep study.What sort of occult sciences arouse your interests?

I believe in vedic astrology! People mock it and say it isn't a science.

But the Physics I was taught and what I saw my child going through, with the same measurement, Physics isn't a science either?

Same thing with medicine.

If these are all sciences, then astrology is also a science. Or none of them are sciences!

But I do not want to take a rigid view on all this.

Have a look at this site. Just found it. And read the prediction for 27 Sept 2011

http://alamongordo.com/

I am but a novice in all these matters. So am also on the learning curve.

Cheers and love to have your comments.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 02 Sep 2011 02:36

^^What is the "Vedic astrological" prediction for India's future?

look at alamongordo archives for India. Most have not taken place. Baba Vanga is supposed to have predicted something India specific. But her other predictions seem random. Just as many other predictors have random correct and random wrong preds. In fact there is little out there India specific.

The follwoing can be looked into :
(1) Vabishya purana
(2) Agni purana
(3) Baba Vanga
(4) all the four major Indian refs to Kalki
(5) Tibetan Buddhism's Kaalchakra predictions

But can you say specifically more using "Vedic astrology"? [By the way - Parasara - the Brihat Parasari Hora and Jaimini - Jaiminisutram are not really considered Vedic astrology - as in "Vedas" for example, but post Vedic or long pre-Vedic- because they show astronomical knowledge not that apparent in the Vedas. controversial anyway.].

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Sep 2011 07:52

brihaspati wrote:^^What is the "Vedic astrological" prediction for India's future? look at alamongordo archives for India. Most have not taken place. Baba Vanga is supposed to have predicted something India specific. But her other predictions seem random. Just as many other predictors have random correct and random wrong preds. In fact there is little out there India specific.

The follwoing can be looked into :
(1) Vabishya purana
(2) Agni purana
(3) Baba Vanga
(4) all the four major Indian refs to Kalki
(5) Tibetan Buddhism's Kaalchakra predictions

But can you say specifically more using "Vedic astrology"? [By the way - Parasara - the Brihat Parasari Hora and Jaimini - Jaiminisutram are not really considered Vedic astrology - as in "Vedas" for example, but post Vedic or long pre-Vedic- because they show astronomical knowledge not that apparent in the Vedas. controversial anyway.].

Brihaspati,

I just picked up Alamongordo as the first site. I hadn't yet studied it in detail. Yesterday, after reading Sanjeev's post I decided to venture back to Nostradamus, out of fun and inquisitiveness.

I used to do a lot of reading on Astrology earlier, but then life took its hectic turn and I was like racing around the country in my job and pounding away at my laptop on flights.

Now I have some time on my hands, so hence this foray back.

I remember reading an article by the late B V Raman, of The Astrological Magazine, over a decade back, where he had predicted that Pakistan would break up. But, alas, cannot remember the timeframe!

So now, I am back into it. And would be glad for you all to share with me any sources and interesting books/articles, on the internet and otherwise to read.

I find the military forums to be depressing.

We only seem to be floating tenders and not buying; we always seem to be upto our neck in supposed corruption and all that sort of stuff.

Cheers

and thanks in advance.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Sep 2011 09:03

Can we take astrology to another thread please?

Bji, What do you make of the Varaha avatara and the recent understanding of the genetics of pigs and humans?

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 02 Sep 2011 11:05

Ramana ji, Can I start an Astrology thread if you permit?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Sep 2011 12:04

sanjeevpunj wrote:Ramana ji, Can I start an Astrology thread if you permit?

My apologies Ramana. idea wasn't to go O/T but connect with Sanjeev who sometime back had posted on a thread about the positions of stars. I honestly did not know whether it was a serious or sarcastic post.

Sorry about the O/T.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 02 Sep 2011 12:08

What I posted was a quote from Canto 12, Chapter 1 of Srimad Bhagvatam, which describes the downfall of dynasties in India. Rajanb ji, I am waiting for the nod from Ramana ji, then we can discuss Astrology in a new thread.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Sep 2011 12:12

sanjeevpunj wrote:What I posted was a quote from Canto 12, Chapter 1 of Srimad Bhagvatam, which describes the downfall of dynasties in India. Rajanb ji, I am waiting for the nod from Ramana ji, then we can discuss Astrology in a new thread.

Thanks Sanjeev. look forward to their permission.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Sep 2011 12:26

sanjeevpunj wrote:Ramana ji, Can I start an Astrology thread if you permit?

Ramana/Sanjeev: Can it be the Astrology and Paranormal Thread please? because it will include people like Edward Cayce and Dr. Bernard Weiss? besides Vedic astrology?

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 02 Sep 2011 13:22

rajanb wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote:What I posted was a quote from Canto 12, Chapter 1 of Srimad Bhagvatam, which describes the downfall of dynasties in India. Rajanb ji, I am waiting for the nod from Ramana ji, then we can discuss Astrology in a new thread.
Thanks Sanjeev. look forward to their permission.

There is an existing thread which has scope for expansion to include Astrology. Bade's post in that particular thread thinks so: viewtopic.php?f=24&p=1085371#p1085371

Ramana garu, will do so shortly.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 02 Sep 2011 13:41

ramana wrote: Bji, What do you make of the Varaha avatara and the recent understanding of the genetics of pigs and humans?

The two species have 98% commonality of DNA. The Varaha might be a way of conveying the fact that the present continental configuration came to place when the last common ancestor of the two species existed (middle-Miocene epoch). This is a strictly Darwinian view. Also, one needs to look into the codifications and probably recalculate the time when primates and even toed ungulates split away. A credible alternative to carbon dating needs to be developed, I gather that strontium isotope dating from fossilised teeth is not viable (or uneconomical) in most cases where DNA is not readily available. This handicap was noticed even in the case of dating hominid fossils of 2-3 Mya, in the case of primates and ungulates we are looking at 11-14 Mya at the minimum (if clues are obtained from Bhagavatam in this regard). If this happens, the Bhagavatam would add a new chapter to Darwinism movement as its introduction (or preface).

Taxonomically, pigs are another family of mammals. Although there is a high degree of compatibility for the purpose of organ transplants, the reason could be down to domestication and specific traits nurtured within the harvested pigs. I am not discounting the possibility that it is statistically possible to have similar sizes even in a non-harvested, non-farmed animal.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 02 Sep 2011 14:27

As far as Bhagvatam is concerned, here is what it says about creation- "In the beginning the Supreme Lord assumed, for the creation of the worlds, the form of the Original Person: [the integrity of the material realm] composed of the sixteen elements [of the ten knowing and working senses, the mind and the five elements] and the cosmic intelligence and such. (2) Resting in His meditative slumber in that water, out of the lotus that spread from the lake of His navel, Brahmâ was manifested, the master of the progenitors in the universe. (3) One believes the different worlds to be part of the form of the Fortunate One that constitutes the excellence of the purest existence. (4) His form thus seen perfectly has numerous legs, thighs, arms and faces, with wonderful heads, ears, eyes and noses, all glowing with garlands and dresses. (5) This source of the multifarious incarnations is the imperishable seed from which the plenary portions and portions thereof, the gods, the human beings and the animals, originate."

Creation according to Srimad Bhagvatam, sprang forth from Brahma, who in turn,has his origin in the navel of Lord Vishnu, and this is a conclusive,widely accepted concept among most Hindu Acharyas. Where this Supreme Lord exists is a mystery that cannot be understood even today, yet it is widely accepted that He exists nevertheless. Of the location it is mentioned in the Gita -

na tad bhasayate suryo
na sasanko na pavakah
yad gatva na nivartante
tad dhama paramam mama
TRANSLATION
That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.

On another note, specially with reference to Klaus's post-IF it were possible to study the DNA of the Original Person, it could be corroborated with concepts of Darwin.In the future, perhaps,when the tenth incarnation comes,this experiment can be conceived and tried, with the explicit permission of the Supreme Lord himself.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 02 Sep 2011 18:23

hehe.. in italian and other romance languages, Porcodio (god is pig) is most blasphemous word and a considered very uncivil even by atheists as it is a very crass word.. I told them about our Varaah avataar and how Sri Vishnu ( I deliberately used the word "God" while describing it to them) in form of pig (well, a wild boar) saved the world from deluge and demon.. It was hilarious to watch their faces...

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 02 Sep 2011 19:09

na tad bhasayate suryo
na sasanko na pavakah
yad gatva na nivartante
tad dhama paramam mama
TRANSLATION
That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.

what makes you translate "nivartante" as never returns to this material world?.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Sep 2011 19:23

please start a new thread.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 02 Sep 2011 19:27

Where this Supreme Lord exists is a mystery that cannot be understood even today,

If Supreme Lord exist "Some Where", isn't that same as saying Supreme Lord exist in Space(Desh) and hence bounded by Space?.That means "Space" is fundamental than Supreme Lord and Supreme Lord is not Supreme any more.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 02 Sep 2011 19:28

Deleted.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 02 Sep 2011 19:37

na tad bhasayate suryo
na sasanko na pavakah
yad gatva na nivartante
tad dhama paramam mama
TRANSLATION
That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.

From the vantage point of "Twam" of "Tat-Twam" pair, same sloka will be interpreted differently.

na tad bhasayate suryo -----He can't perceived through eyes ( as sun is the Adhidava of Eyes)
na sasanko ------He can't perceived through "Manas" (as moon is the Adhidava of Mind)
na pavakah ------ He is beyond any form(roopa) (as agni is Adhidava of all the forms(roopas))

remaining part is self evident as "tad Dham" is nothing but the "seat of "Self".

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 02 Sep 2011 19:53

hehe.. in italian and other romance languages, Porcodio (god is pig) is most blasphemous word and a considered very uncivil even by atheists as it is a very crass word.. I told them about our Varaah avataar and how Sri Vishnu ( I deliberately used the word "God" while describing it to them) in form of pig (well, a wild boar) saved the world from deluge and demon.. It was hilarious to watch their faces...

That is the problem faced when God is assumed only the "Nimmita Karana" of creation. All the Abrahamic religions refuse to accept God as "Upadana Karana" and end up twisting on their head.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 02 Sep 2011 19:56

^^^ Alternative translations/interpretations are always possible.In this particular sloka,Krishna mentions about"THAT abode of mine" indicates a space-time that is different from what is familiar to us on earth, because of the type of illumination, neither illuminated by the Sun,nor moon,nor Electricity.So the illumination comes from the Lord himself (this is one possible assumption). Yad gatva na nivartante (After going there one does not come back, or or in other words one does not return to this material world).

Indeed tad dham is the seat of the "Self"

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 02 Sep 2011 20:02

Sushupti wrote:
na tad bhasayate suryo
na sasanko na pavakah
yad gatva na nivartante
tad dhama paramam mama
TRANSLATION
That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.
what makes you translate "nivartante" as never returns to this material world?.

mera two paisa

Nivartana is "to proceed in cycle", "to carry on in cycle", "to behave", "to move on".. In implied meaning, nivartana also refers to "death" (to proceed to world ahead). vartana refers to a cyclical OR repetitive motif..nivartana also refers to carry on in loop.. In manu smriti, the varnas are asked to behave (nivartayat) according to mouth, arms, thighs and feet respectively.

yad gatva na nivartante - once gone (yad gatvaa) na nivartante (he does not have to proceed [in the cycle of life and death]) mama tad parama dhaaamam (to that highest abode of mine).

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 02 Sep 2011 20:05

^^^^^^ This verse is taken from the Kathopanishad: "The sun does not shine there, nor do the moon and the stars, nor does this lightning shine and much less this fire. When It shines, everything shines after It, by Its light, all these shine" (Chap.II,5.15). The same idea occurs in the Svetasvatara Upanishad (6.14) and the Mundaka Upanishad (II.2.10). The sun, the moon, etc., derive their light(i.e. their ability to ignite sensory organs of the observer) from Para Brahman.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 02 Sep 2011 20:11

yes.. krishna liberally cites from kathopanishad in his geeta.. the famous metaphor of upside down peepul tree, too is taken from kathopanishad...

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 02 Sep 2011 20:15

"In this particular sloka,Krishna mentions about"THAT abode of mine" indicates a space-time that is different from what is familiar to us on earth...."

I am confused. Are you saying that abode of Krishna is just another Space-Time?. What one gains by going from one space-time to another space-time?. My understanding was that as long as once perception of space-time is real, he is not liberated. Whether that space-time is on this earth or in some loka of Ishwara.

"because of the type of illumination, neither illuminated by the Sun,nor moon,nor Electricity.So the illumination comes from the Lord himself (this is one possible assumption)."

Are you saying illumination on this earth is not from Lord himself?.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 02 Sep 2011 20:25

How could that be, no way at all.The Sun gets its illumination from the Lord! What we receive is the indirect illumination from the Lord, in form of sunlight or reflected sunlight from the moon.

As for alternative space-time regions, my perception is that Krishna knows of places we have never heard of, alien planets as we tend to call them here.So what I feel is Krishna is mentioning about such a place, where illumination is direct from the original source - himself instead of indirect from the sun or the moon.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 02 Sep 2011 20:54

i believe that Shri Krishna presents himself as the ultimate abode in which He Himself is the abode. One who reaches there is free from all bondages -- life, death, sorrow and joy hold no meaning..

The message is lost when we consider it as place in the space-time continuum. That place is not a place in the conventional sense but a state of mind which perceives it to be the abode of the Lord that place, like heaven, hell and earth is One but represents different things to different people like water is poison to fire, but life to a fish and a solvent to a chemist, so, does the Lord presents Himself as a place, a person or a state of mind to the seeker. He manifests Himself in all forms yet He Himself is imperciptibe because the form is an incomplete represenatation of the Complete.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 02 Sep 2011 21:05

"As for alternative space-time regions, my perception is that Krishna knows of places we have never heard of, alien planets as we tend to call them here.So what I feel is Krishna is mentioning about such a place"

So that "param dham" of Krishna is some where in far corners of space we experience in waking state.

, where illumination is direct from the original source - himself instead of indirect from the sun or the moon.

How does this direct illumination takes place?. Does Krishna himself becomes Sun or some kind of radiance from Krishna's body illuminates the space in parama dham?.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 02 Sep 2011 21:31

Param Dhaam is Eternal and in a region that will not be destroyed. It is said that all regions upto Dhruva Loka -Pole star (but excluding it) will be destroyed.Dhruva Loka was blessed by the Lord, to remain eternal,and given to Dhruva Maharaj as a gift. Regions beyond Dhruva Loka are eternal.These include Vaikunthas,Goloka,Krishna Loka,Rama Loka etc.

Krishna,the Supreme Lord,(aka Lord Vishnu)he is the source of all the light there is, his effulgence is expanding in all directions, this is my understanding.Where he is personally present, there is direct illumination.Where he is not personally present,he is present in his formless features.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 02 Sep 2011 21:39

ramana wrote:please start a new thread.

Thanks Ramamji,I am writing the first part of it now, and will start a new thread titled "Astrology,Numerology,Palmistry and Paranormal Sciences".

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Sep 2011 21:57

sanjeevpunj wrote:
ramana wrote:please start a new thread.
Thanks Ramamji,I am writing the first part of it now, and will start a new thread titled "Astrology,Numerology,Palmistry and Paranormal Sciences".

Thanks Ramana & Sanjeev. Look forward to it.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 02 Sep 2011 23:00

Param Dhaam is Eternal and in a region that will not be destroyed. It is said that all regions upto Dhruva Loka -Pole star (but excluding it) will be destroyed.

What do you mean by destroyed?. Is it that all the matter existing in these lokas will be destroyed, leaving the space in which they exist intact?. or space too will be destroyed? if yes, how space can be destroyed?.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 02 Sep 2011 23:16

My understanding of Sri Krishna is something like this. Replace Goddess TripuraSundari with Sri Krishna in the following text, as "Naam" and Roopa of God although being holy and benign to devotees is not God himself.

69. (Dattatreya continued) O Parasurama, hearing this speech of his wife, Hemachuda was delighted and continued to ask her questions:

70. Tell me, dear, who is this God, the Creator, the Self contained One and the Ordainer of the universe to whom I should consecrate myself.

71-72. Some say He is Vishnu, others Siva, Ganesa, the Sun, Narasimha or other similar avatars; others say Buddha or Arhat; still others Vasudeva, the life-principle, the Moon, Fire, Karma, Nature, Primordial Nature and what not.

73. Each sect gives a different origin for the universe. Tell me which of them is true?

74. I verily believe that there is nothing unknown to you because that famous and omniscient Sage Vyaghrapada has been gracious to you, and profound wisdom shines in you, though you are of the weaker sex. Please tell me out of your love for me, O fair one, speaking words of eternal life!

75. Thus requested, Hemalekha spoke with pleasure: Lord, I shall tell you the final Truth about God. Listen!

76-78. God is the All-Seer who generates, permeates, sustains and destroys the universe. He is Siva, He is Vishnu, He is Brahma, the Sun, the Moon, etc. He is the One whom the different sects call their own; He is not Siva, nor Vishnu, nor Brahma, nor any other exclusively.

79-93. I will tell you further. Heed me! To say, for instance that the Primal Being is Siva with five faces and three eyes, the Creator would in that case be like an ordinary potter making pots, endowed with a body and brain. True, there is no art found in the world, without a body and some intellect. In fact, the creative faculty in men belongs to something between the body and pure intelligence. [Note: Body being insentient cannot act of its own accord; nor can intellect do so without a tool.] Therefore the mind operates apart from the gross body, in dreams; being intelligent it creates an environment suitable to its latent desires. This clearly indicates that the body is only a tool for a purpose and the agent is intelligence. Instruments are necessary for human agents because their capacities are limited and they are not self-contained. Whereas the Creator of the universe is perfect in Himself and creates the whole universe without any external aid.
This leads to the important conclusion that God has no body. Otherwise, He would be reduced to a glorified human being, requiring innumerable accessories for work and influenced by seasons and environments, in no way different from a creature, and not the Lord. Moreover, preexistence of accessories would quash His unique mastery and imply limits to His powers of creation. This is absurd, as being contrary to the original premises. Therefore, He has no body nor the other aids, yet He still creates the world, O Lord of my life! Fools are taken in by the notion of giving a body to the transcendental Being. Still, if devotees worship and contemplate Him with a body according to their own inclinations, He shows them grace, assuming such a body. For He is unique and fulfils the desires of His devotees.Nevertheless, the conclusion must be reached that He is pure intelligence and His consciousness is absolute and transcendental. Such is the consciousness-intelligence in purity, Absolute Being, the One Queen, Parameswari (Transcendental Goddess), overwhelming the three states and hence called Tripura. Though She is the undivided whole, the universe manifests in all its variety in Her, being reflected as it were, in a self-luminous mirror. The reflection cannot be apart from the mirror and is therefore one with it. Such being the case, there cannot be difference in degrees (e.g., Siva, or Vishnu being superior to each other). Bodies are mere conceptions in the lower order of beings and they are not to the point in the case of God. Therefore, be wise, and worship the one pure, unblemished Transcendence.

94. If unable to comprehend this pure state, one should worship God in the concrete form which is most agreeable to Him; in this way, too, one is sure to reach the goal, though gradually.

95. Though one attempted it in millions of births, one would not advance except in one of these two ways.

Thus ends the Chapter on “The Nature of God” in the Section of Hemachuda in Tripura Rahasya.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Sep 2011 00:44

Ancient Egyptian concepts of origin of Earth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad

Ogdoad means eight deities.

Isn't it similar to ashta dikpalkas?

And the origins similar to brahmanda and emergence of Vishnu from the oceans?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 03 Sep 2011 04:26

ramana wrote:Can we take astrology to another thread please?

Bji, What do you make of the Varaha avatara and the recent understanding of the genetics of pigs and humans?

Klaus ji gives an interesting Darwinian angle. I have always taken the "dasavatara" varnan, from when I first heard "pralayapayodhijale...jaya jagadisha hare" as a child, was that it was a condensed "Hindu" description of Darwinian evolution.

Varaha for me literally could be symbolically :
(1) recognition of nearest pre-ape mammalian
(2) transition from amphibious - more water - to less-water/more mud life
(3) the early known association and importance of the pig in modern human migration
(4) a medical knowledge of organ and other physiological compatibilities [I know the nrisimha will be a ugly thorn in this argument!] (in fact pig flesh is used in unmentionable forensic experiments to determine effects on human tissue)

There are two other ideas which have recently crossed my idle brain : is there also an astronomical encoding in dasavatara? and in a slightly different direction - is there actually a possibility that evolution is indeed guided "from inside"? Are we all carrying what we call souls as merely special beings who were really the "ancients" and devised a way of transforming their consciousness into four-main fundamental interaction neutral shapes - which could therefore pass through matter, or enter the burning sun [ a common description of soul's expereince in body-free form] and when one universe died, jumped through the black-hole [no effect if interaction neutral] into the newly created one at the white end?

There is more to this "romance" as I see it, but can tie together a lot of our accumulated "wisdom" about the nature of the soul, and solves the dvaita-advaita problem too. The necessity and importance of taking living body also becomes immediately a consequence of this model!

ps: sounding out the idea - for a fantasy novel!