Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Sep 2011 12:30

Lalmohan wrote:i echo the thoughts of others above - the quality of debate and analysis on BRF has deteriorated over the past few years. there is much greater intolerance and much more ranting - there is a definite groupthink mentality towards the right of the political spectrum, and many contrary views are screamed down.

ultimately we can elect with our feet, but that would be a shame

I too echo this sentiment. A debate must be based on facts, reasoning and inference. Not piskology experiments and perpetual conformist views. we are a democracy and must be free to express our distaste for inept governance models.

Let thousand thoughts bloom. If the readers are smart they will pick the right strategies to take Bharat forward. After all jingos and WKKs both believe in and work towards a strong Bharat right?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Sep 2011 12:34

FWIW, let me also join in the chorus against the decline in the standards of debate and information exchange on the forum. I do recall a time when stalwarts used to post who're now long gone. Perhaps that's a result more of a natural process of attrition than anything else. Perhaps not.

Anyway, making the ignore button much more visible and user-friendly can certainly help reduce the general irritation level on the forum and steer conversations away from reactive death spirals. Perhaps.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Sep 2011 12:38

Lalmohan wrote:i echo the thoughts of others above - the quality of debate and analysis on BRF has deteriorated over the past few years. there is much greater intolerance and much more ranting - there is a definite groupthink mentality towards the right of the political spectrum, and many contrary views are screamed down.

ultimately we can elect with our feet, but that would be a shame

Lalmohan-ji; apologies for using your post to segue, to clarify this post is not merely a response to what you said, maybe partly, but only partly, mostly a combined response to above discussion.

I personally cant understand whether the latest bout of angst is because of "group think" or because of "calling names and intolerance", since both are used interconnectedly quite often in the set of complaints.

If its the latter, I would say that a lot of dissenting non-right-wing-fundamentalist-EB-RSS-facist views have been quite generous in their use of "in-tolerance"; there have been repeated calls to shut down discussions itself when the discussions were not quite to their liking.

I didn't quite see the howls of protest from certain quarters then.

So it makes me think the real issue that some folks have is that the forum is beginning to agree on certain basic premises which some folks are not comfortable with -- but I fail to see why it is a forum's responsibility to have a artificialy maintained bias towards neutrailty and impose it on its members.

BRFs guidelines of no personal attack etc are quite clear, and as long as that is followed, (and no labeling views by BRaman as WKK is NOT a personal attack) I dont see whats the problem. Open public figures can not be expected to be free from criticism; we may not use foul language against them, but saying that nothing derogatory must be said is a call to censorship.

As for voting by feet, it is quite a thinly veiled threat of "not participating if the discussion is not on my terms" I am afraid. By its very nature, such PoVs are not conducive to open and free discussions.

People should become mature, and develop the strength of discussing their ideas in a hostile environment if they believe in it, instead of trying to shape their environment.

Note -- at all points of time, I am never (and was never) for name calling of forum members and or intemperate discussion so kindly please do not ascribe that to me to attack the above PoV.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Sep 2011 12:48

>>It appears that you did not understand the argument.

I understand the argument perfectly well. A well-known spy who defected to another country, with all indication being that he did it for personal and family benefit is compared to someone who has retired more than honourably and now heads a think-tank in our country and lives there. Where is the comparison if it is not your case that the latter could be as much of a traitor as the former?

>>Just because someone worked in the army/govt/RAW does not imply that his/her actions should not be questioned.

Reasonably obvious, I should think.

>>You can find some more examples of disreputable behavior in the book "India's external intelligence". Not all government officials sacrifice their life in Siachen.

They are all human beings, just like us and prone to the same problems and issues. How many on BRF are traitors like Rabinder, by your judgement? Would you care to name them? There are many here who have taken positions similar or "worse" than what B Raman has taken.

>>I did not say anything about B. Raman's character.

What else did you say then by comparing him with someone who is, by Indian measure, a criminal who will be tried for treason if and when we get our hands on him?

>>By the way, why do you have this extreme faith in him?

Because I'm getting my "silver" too, maybe? But, on a more serious note, it is not "faith" in B Raman or anybody else. It is the use of reason with regard to anyone. Do you think, if you read all or most of the articles that B Raman wrote in the last two years, you would still feel this way - that he can be compared to Rabinder Singh? Or Arundhati Roy, or Kuldip Nayyar...

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Sep 2011 12:50

Hari Seldon wrote: Anyway, making the ignore button much more visible and user-friendly can certainly help reduce the general irritation level on the forum and steer conversations away from reactive death spirals. Perhaps.

A forum where a membr ignores all posts that are not inline with his/her view and sees only what s/he likes would be like Maya (not the politician Maya).

If implemented to perfection it can make BRF to be the forum of 1000 paths. Even pakis can merge their thoughts into BRF (they will see only the posts/posters they like). That would be the nirvana of groupthink.

My humble suggestion is to remove the 'ignore' button completely. If a member wants to participate in a debate, s/he must be prepared to see a contrary view. Otherwise what is the value of BRF to Bharat?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Sep 2011 13:00

What has happened?

Has Pakistan taken over India overnight, that now Indian and BRF topics are being discussed in this holy thread!

amit · Post by **amit** » 06 Sep 2011 13:02

JE Menon wrote:>>So? Rabinder Singh also worked for the Army and RAW for many years.

And this is the problem, symptomatic of what is happening. Everyone with a different view, even slightly, is denigrated by association, or by mis-characterisation, or simply by totally unfounded allegation, unfounded by any evidence that is. Rabinder Singh is clearly a traitor who has defected to the US and the case is as clear as it is going to get. I will not even dignify that statement in regard to the person the comparison was made with.

Having said that, it would be equally viable to accuse a group of posters on BRF, from a certain area distribution in the US, of ganging up together to bombard the forum with posts that shift its basically centrist orientation (with occasional swings either to the left or right) permanently in one direction. It would be quite viable to make the case, that there are some who wish to make the tilt in one direction permanent and that an understanding has been reached in this regard. It could be said also that fairly well considered attempts at covering tracks are not wholly under the radar.

This can be an inexpensive operation by any one of several possible ill-wishers. But most likely it is something that people who consider themselves "patriots" are doing in the anticipation that it will benefit their worldview. It will not. It will only succeed in wounding, perhaps fatally, what has been for a long long time a perfectly respectable forum, which has been quite useful to a large cross-section of society. There will be people who are loath to see it undermined in this way.

There is no case being made that B Raman's or any one else's opinion cannot be rebutted, or even trashed with reasoned argument. But if the case is B Raman said this therefore he's a pro-Pak, weakneed, WKK possibly getting silver, or MMS said this, therefore he is selling-out the country for personal benefit... And it is systematically done over a period of months, while such vitriol is never reserved for any others, one begins to wonder whether the objective is political and if it has anything to do with a bipartisan love for the country which is what BR was founded upon, I believe.

So I appeal to those who are doing what they are doing to think whether what they are doing is wise.

JEM,

A great post. This needed to be said.

Such posts makes it worthwhile for me to occasionally browse BRF. I've stopped posting here since an Oracle has proclaimed that my moral security compass (or some such rubbish) is malfunctioning. [Right now, I'm sitting in a dark, dank corner in disgrace contemplating whether I should make a pilgrimage to the West Coast of A to seek forgiveness for letting down India.]

As long as folks like you, Shiv, Arun, Sridhar and others keep on posting, I'll continue to lurk here.

It pains me when your political orientation and/or beliefs becomes more important than the idea of India - a plural multicultural society teaming with different opinions and beliefs.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Sep 2011 13:03

JE Menon wrote: What else did you say then by comparing him with someone who is,

Wow...Bliss to not put words in my mouth.

My post was only about the bolded words in that sentence. See here. Those words are "who have done more for India than any of us is ever likely to do". It just means that government officials/employees (politicians/soldiers/RAW/etc.) can be corrupt. Nothing more. Nothing less.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 06 Sep 2011 13:03

This thread needs daily bomb blasts...

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Sep 2011 13:07

JE Menon wrote: Where is the comparison if it is not your case that the latter could be as much of a traitor as the former?

My point is that the probability is non-zero. Period.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Sep 2011 13:12

>>My post was only about the bolded words in that sentence. See here. Those words are "who have done more for India than any of us is ever likely to do". It just means that government officials/employees (politicians/soldiers/RAW/etc.) can be corrupt. Nothing more. Nothing less.

And Rabinder Singh? Does he fit into the category of "who have done more for India than any of us is ever likely to do"? Or is he one who has "done more for the US than any of us is ever likely to do"?

The probability is non-zero for everybody, obviously. And that is why such a comparison is egregious - because Rabinder Singh is a known case.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 06 Sep 2011 13:16

Lalmohan wrote:i echo the thoughts of others above - the quality of debate and analysis on BRF has deteriorated over the past few years. there is much greater intolerance and much more ranting - there is a definite groupthink mentality towards the right of the political spectrum, and many contrary views are screamed down.

ultimately we can elect with our feet, but that would be a shame

WOW!!! where is this coming from? I went back 2 pages to see any post by you, but nothing came of it.

Sorry, but if people have leaning towards right of political spectrum, then how does it deteriorate the standard of the forum?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Sep 2011 13:23

MMS is not a member of BR! Secondly,he has proved time and again to be the root cause of much that ails the nation today,whether it be cash-for-votes scandal,CWG scam,Telecom scam,Antrix/Devas scam ,Baluchistan faux pas,ad nauseum.He is totally unfit to be India's PM and is chiefly responsible for winking at his colleagues' grand larceny.His most important act of detriment to the nation in my opinion ,is what is being debated on another thread,his dereliction of duty when negotiating the N-deal,where he has in actual fact betrayed the nation and should be on trial for treason.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Sep 2011 13:25

JE Menon wrote: And Rabinder Singh? Does he fit into the category of "who have done more for India than any of us is ever likely to do"? Or is he one who has "done more for the US than any of us is ever likely to do"?

Rabinder Singh probably fits into both categories. His net utility could be either positive or negative.

In any case, this tortuous debate is not benefiting anyone. I don't see any problem in my post. I believe this is just a giant misunderstanding.

You can, of course, delete my post if it is inappropriate for this forum.

Manish Jain · Post by **Manish Jain** » 06 Sep 2011 13:32

Here're B Raman's responses as sent on twitter -
»
B.RAMAN
SORBONNE75 B.RAMAN

1. A dear friend has brought to my notice some discussion on me in Bharat-Rakshak Forum

2. Trigger:My paper on Pakistan written at request of Brookings which is available in my blog

3.The discussants feel I have become soft on Pakistan, I have been bitten by MMS syndrome. They R mystified. Why the change?

4. They concede I know & understand Pakistan & terrorism better than anybody else.Nothing has changed in Pak mind-set

5. Yet, according to them, I have softened. Why? 2 possible reasons discussed by them.

6. First: I have probably been bought for money. Am glad they have rejected this possibility.

7. I am gratified by their conclusion that I can't be bought.

8. Second, my cancer.It is felt by one of them that my fight with cancer has caused an intellectual fatigue in me.

9. There R others too outside this Forum who have attributed my less-hawkishness on Pak to my cancer.

10. Some have even mailed to me that my cancer has spread to my brain.I shd have a fresh check-up. So they say.

11. Yes, I do know &understand Pak & terrorism better than many others.

12. At same time, I do know & understand cancer & MY CANCER better than anybody else

13. I can reassure all my readers that my cancer has not softened my attitude on Pak.

14. The reasons for my slightly-- not totally---changed thinking on Pakistan have been explained by me in many articles in recent months.

15. It is my search for an alternate way of dealing with Pakistan that will be a mix of the political, psychological & operational. FINI

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Sep 2011 13:38

Manish Jain wrote:Here're B Raman's responses as sent on twitter -
»
B.RAMAN
SORBONNE75 B.RAMAN

1. A dear friend has brought to my notice some discussion on me in Bharat-Rakshak Forum

2. Trigger:My paper on Pakistan written at request of Brookings which is available in my blog

3.The discussants feel I have become soft on Pakistan, I have been bitten by MMS syndrome. They R mystified. Why the change?

4. They concede I know & understand Pakistan & terrorism better than anybody else.Nothing has changed in Pak mind-set

5. Yet, according to them, I have softened. Why? 2 possible reasons discussed by them.

6. First: I have probably been bought for money. Am glad they have rejected this possibility.

7. I am gratified by their conclusion that I can't be bought.

8. Second, my cancer.It is felt by one of them that my fight with cancer has caused an intellectual fatigue in me.

9. There R others too outside this Forum who have attributed my less-hawkishness on Pak to my cancer.

10. Some have even mailed to me that my cancer has spread to my brain.I shd have a fresh check-up. So they say.

11. Yes, I do know &understand Pak & terrorism better than many others.

12. At same time, I do know & understand cancer & MY CANCER better than anybody else

13. I can reassure all my readers that my cancer has not softened my attitude on Pak.

14. The reasons for my slightly-- not totally---changed thinking on Pakistan have been explained by me in many articles in recent months.

15. It is my search for an alternate way of dealing with Pakistan that will be a mix of the political, psychological & operational. FINI

Let's hope that...

He gets well soon.

He also soon regains his earlier, remarkable and piercing clarity of thought.

jai ho.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Sep 2011 13:39

RamaY wrote: My humble suggestion is to remove the 'ignore' button completely. If a member wants to participate in a debate, s/he must be prepared to see a contrary view. Otherwise what is the value of BRF to Bharat?

I agree with RamaY-ji, also to some what mis-quote Surya, this tamasha of, "I will leave onlee if I dont hear what I want to hear" has gone on too far.

People ask for open-ness by saying that "although most posts are crap some posts are good and the few good posts show that there exists a space for really open views which I can share with, and hence signal to noise ratio must be reduced in order to keep openness"

I mean huh? You are basically getting you back side handed to you on a platter because the position you have taken is not logically sustainable and it becomes forums responsibility to "moderate" the strength of views that in opposition to yours?

So much for free speech, democracy and tolerance. If you are tolerant learn to tolerate what people think about your views than going into a crybaby mode.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Sep 2011 13:54

I must say B Raman's own response is better than the defense mounted on his behalf here.

I will however say that the "chankian" formula that he suggests, is unlikely to find fans here either. -- I for one cringe in horror when the word "chankian" reason is brought out to justify yet another black and white case of total goof up by the powers that be.

So we shall see...

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Sep 2011 14:00

Here is my mustard to the discussion:

There are different points of view on BRF. The more points of view the better. It keeps everybody's thinking on its toes.

Even if somebody thinks that we need to go easy on Pakistan, so that we can spare more ammunition for some bigger danger to India that is lurking around the corner, and he genuinely believes that, then that too is valid nationalist thinking. As such even among those people who would seem WKK to us, there can be different motives and backgrounds. Even in love-making, some people are known to have died, even prophets.

Pardon the expression, but as they say, there are more than one way to skin a cat. There is more than one strategy to help India protect her national interests.

Before we start throwing around acronyms, I think it is useful to observe the person and his writings for at least a couple of years. One should not be hasty in making judgments of other people's characters, and people need to get the benefit of the doubt.

Even on the forum, one should go easy with newbies and let them find their gallop first.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 14:03

RamaY wrote:[quot

Isn't it a fact that the so-called WKK group (by above definition - yours not mine)
I am sincerely confused.

Confusion is your birthright and I am nobody to try and stop you from being yourself. But I must point out that all this "my definition"/"your definition" business causes a lot of confusion. If it causes you khujli - I advise use of the ignore button, the one you hate. I actually like that button and suffer from no confusion myself. Perhaps you have noticed?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Sep 2011 14:14

shiv wrote:
RamaY wrote:[quot

Isn't it a fact that the so-called WKK group (by above definition - yours not mine)
I am sincerely confused.
Confusion is your birthright and I am nobody to try and stop you from being yourself. But I must point out that all this "my definition"/"your definition" business causes a lot of confusion. If it causes you khujli - I advise use of the ignore button, the one you hate. I actually like that button and suffer from no confusion myself. Perhaps you have noticed?

Such posts certainly dont help the stated and asked for agenda of "diverse opinions and engaging with multiple povs"; perhaps people can take a deep breath and check if they themselves follow a path which they prescribe in general?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 14:19

RajeshA wrote:
Before we start throwing around acronyms, I think it is useful to observe the person and his writings for at least a couple of years. One should not be hasty in making judgments of other people's characters, and people need to get the benefit of the doubt.

The ignore option exists for all and for some there is also the option of using it intelligently. If a person's views are difficult to understand and cause confusion or angst it is better to let the person have his say and post a counter opinion rather than resorting to acronyms and characterization as "weak", "cancer in the brain" etc

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 14:22

Sanku wrote:
Such posts certainly dont help the stated and asked for agenda of "diverse opinions and engaging with multiple povs"; perhaps people can take a deep breath and check if they themselves follow a path which they prescribe in general?

Poojya Sanku maharaj-ji. I hope you have included yourself in this business of taking deep breaths. Please excuse me for making this reply. I realise you may not rest till you have made me regret saying that. I apologise in advance. Sorry.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 06 Sep 2011 14:23

to keep the knowledge among the circles of TFTA elite OR to allow it to disseminate amongst SDRE aam-abduls, has been always a strategic decision which has confounded mighty and righteous.

In given time, what is more important? to have one finger placed exactly on the pulse of "great time"? OR to allow as many fingers to get the feel of the the "great time's" pulse as possible, with some compromised accuracy?

If the purpose of BRF is to discover truth, it better revert back to the olden days, when I was merely a lurker. If BRF wishes to "educate" the masses and disseminate the knowledge of truth amongst SDREs like us, then it better live with the compromised level of discussions.

Whilst I agree that the discussions earlier (days of arun_s, jcage, enqyoob et al) was of concentrated nature and there weren't much "uber-comprehension" issues in those days, brf wasn't known much. With masses joining and posting and getting their doubts cleared, the level of information among large section of internet savvy youth has increased. the difference between "deracinated nationalism" and "true nationalism" is slowly emerging in the minds of youngsters. BRF has played a role in this clarity. There are countless bloggers and tweeple who learn from here and post it elsewhere. Countless others use brf as a reference site for studying and citing purposes. many get new ideas of doing new things with like-minded new people.

does brf wishes to stay on intellectual cloud no.9?

I think at least for a decade, BRF should remain as it is. Meanwhile a breakout BRF group will start a BRF 2.0 for next phase of purely intellectual leap. May be the process has already started. Knowledge is worthless without dissemination and action. If BRF is truly nationalistic, it should not come in the way of "Loksangraha".

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Sep 2011 14:24

shiv wrote:
RajeshA wrote:
Before we start throwing around acronyms, I think it is useful to observe the person and his writings for at least a couple of years. One should not be hasty in making judgments of other people's characters, and people need to get the benefit of the doubt.
The ignore option exists for all and for some there is also the option of using it intelligently. If a person's views are difficult to understand and cause confusion or angst it is better to let the person have his say and post a counter opinion rather than resorting to acronyms and characterization as "weak", "cancer in the brain" etc

The above can be done only if there is no ignore button, because if the ignore button is used, there is hardly ground for knowing what to counter in the first place.

Also "cancer in the brain" is certainly unique and somewhat personal, however the word "weak" is so freely used against all and sundry going moralistic on calling some one weak is a bit of bouncer.

Lets stay within limits of "though must not use this word" type of injunctions shall we.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 14:36

Sanku wrote:
The above can be done only if there is no ignore button, because if the ignore button is used, there is hardly ground for knowing what to counter in the first place.

Also "cancer in the brain" is certainly unique and somewhat personal, however the word "weak" is so freely used against all and sundry going moralistic on calling some one weak is a bit of bouncer.

Lets stay within limits of "though must not use this word" type of injunctions shall we.

The utility of the ignore feature is a matter of opinion. That opinion can be expressed only if the feature is available.

The ability to express or not express an opinion is a personal choice. Reacting to that opinion by attributing some characteristic to the person who posts that opinion - such as "weak" or "WKK" is in my opinion an indicator that no rebuttal exists for the opinion. When the number of people who are unable to rebut an opinion increases on BRF, it is my view that the standards of BRF have declined, because an opinion cannot be accepted or rebutted, but the topic is sidelined to characterise the holder of an opinion as weak, WKK or as having something in his brain

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Sep 2011 14:47

diversity in opinion is always welcome, crass behavior is not. it is when the latter exceeds a tolerance level that voting with feet is suggested. perhaps i am not surprised that this cannot be distinguished

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Sep 2011 14:52

^^ So much of gyaan on BRF politics in TSP dhaaga?

Guess we need PNS Mehran type attacks from time to time to keep the TSP dhaaga pure like the Poaks else it seems to become a BRF introspection thread!!!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Sep 2011 14:54

the TSP dhaga has been the place for most of the best analysis on BRF over the years, this is where i used to learn the most from esteemed senior members. the signal/noise ratio has worsened over the last few years. (and note - i don't care if the signal is +ve or -ve polarity, only that it should be strong)

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 06 Sep 2011 15:07

Enough of this self-analysis. Please take this discussion else where. I'd like to request clean up of this thread

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Sep 2011 15:11

shiv wrote:
Sanku wrote:
Such posts certainly dont help the stated and asked for agenda of "diverse opinions and engaging with multiple povs"; perhaps people can take a deep breath and check if they themselves follow a path which they prescribe in general?
Poojya Sanku maharaj-ji. I hope you have included yourself in this business of taking deep breaths. Please excuse me for making this reply. I realise you may not rest till you have made me regret saying that. I apologise in advance. Sorry.

Mananiya Shiv Mahodaya; first off, glad to see that you have not used the ignore buttion on me, and I mean it sincerely.

Secondly, rest assured, many posts on BRF have me competing with baba ramdev.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Sep 2011 15:21

shiv wrote: The utility of the ignore feature is a matter of opinion. That opinion can be expressed only if the feature is available.

Well clearly, that argument can be made for any number of options both present and absent

for example say like button.

Many discussions about like button have characterized people in terms of being a little to juvenile and facebookish or leading to personality cults and forum wars.

In my opinion, none of the opinions about the opinions on forum features, are opined as a downgrading the forum.

So when we have opinions saying that some opinions are more equal than other opinions, we are in a bit of a loop here.

Easy way to break the loop is to practice what you preach (for all of us), let folks have their say instead of being preachy about it, and if it goes outside the norms, use the warning feature.

Saying that opinions must be moderated within certain norms is a no go area. Period IMVHO of course.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Sep 2011 15:23

Lalmohan wrote:diversity in opinion is always welcome, crass behavior is not. it is when the latter exceeds a tolerance level that voting with feet is suggested. perhaps i am not surprised that this cannot be distinguished

Crass behavior is some what subjective, if enough people vote with feet using crass behavior as a reason we will see.

Right now I see discomfort with some thought streams being characterized as crass behavior by those uncomfortable with it.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Sep 2011 15:35

shiv wrote:
RajeshA wrote:
Before we start throwing around acronyms, I think it is useful to observe the person and his writings for at least a couple of years. One should not be hasty in making judgments of other people's characters, and people need to get the benefit of the doubt.
The ignore option exists for all and for some there is also the option of using it intelligently. If a person's views are difficult to understand and cause confusion or angst it is better to let the person have his say and post a counter opinion rather than resorting to acronyms and characterization as "weak", "cancer in the brain" etc

Oh that comment was for Indian writers writing elsewhere, not on BRF.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 06 Sep 2011 15:36

The only thing I want to say is don't insult military officials or scientists. These people have access to info that we can only imagine . These are very complicated subjects. Sometimes one might disagree with them . But what happens here is that people mock them , use innuendo's and the f-words. .Everyone from RPF to Fermi to Bhabha to ACM Browne have been insulted like they were some SUAR-CO painters or baki jernails .

The reason I got really charged up on the BK dhaga is because someone used the f-word on BARC . And others joined him . Its easy to talk in the comfort of one's office or bedroom using the latest I-PAD . But those were the people some of us may well owe our lives to .

Bhima · Post by **Bhima** » 06 Sep 2011 16:11

Al-Qaeda chief Younis al-Mauritani held, says Pakistan

"This operation was planned and conducted with technical assistance of United State Intelligence agencies with whom Inter-Services Intelligence has a strong, historic intelligence relationship," said the statement.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Sep 2011 16:23

Manish Jain wrote:Here're B Raman's responses as sent on twitter -

I am not a twitterer, but first and foremost, someone kindly connvey my best wishes to BRJi as he copes with his health.

14. The reasons for my slightly-- not totally---changed thinking on Pakistan have been explained by me in many articles in recent months.

I may have missed his articles suggesting the reasons for BRJi's changed thinking on TSP, but which ones is he refering to?

15. It is my search for an alternate way of dealing with Pakistan that will be a mix of the political, psychological & operational.

What alternate ways of dealing with a pathological terrorist entity? Has BRJi forgotten 26/11, an act of war waged by TSP? Does he advocate just forgetting about it just as the honorable MMSJi has? How can BRJi suggest that MMS visit the same terrorist country that waged 26/11 and the state-sponored perpetrators are roaming free right under Kiyani's nose? What kind of a country does BRJi want India to be? A country with such unlimited tolerance to TSP's terrorist provocation just because of the nuke factor? And does BRJi share MMS's thibnking on Kashmir, namely "borders are irrelevant" and joint soverignty over the valley? What is India's bottom line? How far will India go in acceding to TSP's demands? At what point will India say nothing doing, nuke war or no? Is India's pussilanimous approach to TSP because India does not have a credible second strike capability while TSP has Chinese NoKo ding dongs? Is US support to TSP the reason for India's pathetic appeasement?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 16:26

If Mani Shankar Aiyar says "Go easy on Pakistan" one can (suppressing irritation and an urge to call him a WKK) say "Hmm that is what one would expect from such a person"

If BRaman says it we have the excuse "Oh he is getting old"

When Bharat Karnad says it what's up?

There is something that all of us are missing. Something that the MMS government is accused of not doing. There are things happening on the Pakistan front that are weird that we may have missed while we celebrate (rightly in my view) all the self inflicted injuries and IED mubaraks in Pakistan.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Sep 2011 16:35

shiv wrote:There is something that all of us are missing. Something that the MMS government is accused of not doing. There are things happening on the Pakistan front that are weird that we may have missed while we celebrate (rightly in my view) all the self inflicted injuries and IED mubaraks in Pakistan.

shiv saar,

what we may be missing is either information not in public domain, or a different assessment of the situation by analysts closer to the intelligence drip from Pakistan as they can interpret the happenings differently, through a different filter. It can just as well be that many feel there is a much greater danger over the horizon, again due to their proximity to some other intelligence drip. Or just wishful thinking.

I think we will have to question B. Raman and Bharat Karnad on this. Perhaps they can point out what we may be missing!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Sep 2011 17:13

shiv wrote:If Mani Shankar Aiyar says "Go easy on Pakistan" one can (suppressing irritation and an urge to call him a WKK) say "Hmm that is what one would expect from such a person"

If BRaman says it we have the excuse "Oh he is getting old"

When Bharat Karnad says it what's up?

There is something that all of us are missing. Something that the MMS government is accused of not doing. There are things happening on the Pakistan front that are weird that we may have missed while we celebrate (rightly in my view) all the self inflicted injuries and IED mubaraks in Pakistan.

We are mixing things to see what we want to see.

As I mentioned earlier BR/BK must have recommended to ignore Pakistan for completely different reasons from what MMS/MSA have in mind.

Doing == on intentions just because the outcome is == is not right cognition.