China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

[Christopher Sidor]

I think the issues between China and India are a bit exaggerated. For the most important part, the border issue can be solved by negotiation. Similar problem existed between Russia and China but it was solved peacefully.

To Chinese government, taiwan and south china sea are far more important. As things stand right now, both PRC and ROC in Taiwan seem content about the current situtation, but how it goes largely depends on the stance/policy of the new leader of Taiwan. In south China sea, it's not clear how things will pan out in future. It's crystal clear that PLAN and PLAAF are both preparing actively and spending heavily for potential future conflict in that area, for oil and gas resource reason.

It's totally understandable for people here to feel suspicious about the J-20 or other Chinese achivements. After all I was shocked too. As an average Chinese who doesn't live China for several years, I was quite happy to see J-10 came into service and felt proud even knowing that it's 20+ years later than F-16. The existence of J-20 is far and away beyond my expectation. Now there are rumors that there will be another 4th gen figher starting test flight in a few months. I'll wait and see if it's true or not.

Chinese have good reason to be proud. They have managed to lift millions out of poverty in one of the shortest possible time. They have decreased infant mortality by a great amount. In all the standards of Human development index they have outpaced most of developing world, especially India. And your pride on seeing J-10 fly is understandable.

It is not these weapons or economic progress of China which threatens Indians. Rather it is the actions of China. And to expect that MacMohan Line would be accepted peacefully by china is also a pipe dream, especially when China continues to illegally and immorally occupy 30,000 sqkms of Indian territories. Currently yes Taiwan is important to China. But we in India also harbor no illusions as far as the future are concerned. A tiger does not change its spots. China's behavior for the past 50 years is proof enough.

[wong]

^^^^
The border issue between China and India is hardly this black and white. I am personally against China accepting the MacMahon line. Democratic Taiwan doesn't even recognize the MacMahon line. That being said, war with India over it is economically impratical. It would just provide an excuse for western sanctions and reprisals. An arms race though is another matter and I'm all for it, especially since China is clearly winning.

[Kanson]

^^^^
The border issue between China and India is hardly this black and white. I am personally against China accepting the MacMahon line. Democratic Taiwan doesn't even recognize the MacMahon line. That being said, war with India over it is economically impratical. It would just provide an excuse for western sanctions and reprisals. An arms race though is another matter and I'm all for it, especially since China is clearly winning.

What is the use of arms race when you can't fight a war with India. Simply for the show as boyz with toyz? Check the americans, how they are fighting war after war. Chinese are only for empty bravado, just as you mentioned.

See, Indians, even at the threat of US attack, and Chinese aggression from North, Indians attacked and won the Bangladesh war. See the Chinese, who at the mere appearance of US boats in Taiwan straits, dropped their plan. As you correctly mentioned, Chinese are only for empty bravado. And their toys are only for show.

[Victor]

...China is clearly winning.

The picture I have is of a Chinese guy running furiously around a track all by himself, red in the face and foaming at the nostrils. No disrespect but it is a funny picture. A little disturbing and strange but still funny.

[wong]

^^^^
Well, the image we have of you guys is equally amusing. Nothing is wrong with a good arms race. Lots of good civilian tech came out of the US/Soviet arms race.

[vishvak]

^^^^
Well, the image we have of you guys is equally amusing. Nothing is wrong with a good arms race. Lots of good civilian tech came out of the US/Soviet arms race.

Who all are part of this "we" here? Is it a common Chinese peasant eating a Chinese grapefruit? (Chinese Fruit - some info on Chinese fruits)

[gakakkad]

^^^^
Well, the image we have of you guys is equally amusing. Nothing is wrong with a good arms race. Lots of good civilian tech came out of the US/Soviet arms race.

If thats the spirit , well lets have an arms race. But sadly that is not the spirit from the Chinese side. You have been training terrorists against us for the last 20 years. You supplied paki lunatics with dangerous stuff that could seriously create problems. If it was just a space race or an economic race , or a military technology race things would have been different.

[Indranil]

Could we get back to meaningful discussion ?!!

[ashi]

If thats the spirit , well lets have an arms race.

India is importing 70%+ of her weapons, with a economy size around 1/4 of China's. I don't think it is wise to do so.

[ashi]

What is the use of arms race when you can't fight a war with India. Simply for the show as boyz with toyz? Check the americans, how they are fighting war after war. Chinese are only for empty bravado, just as you mentioned.

See, Indians, even at the threat of US attack, and Chinese aggression from North, Indians attacked and won the Bangladesh war. See the Chinese, who at the mere appearance of US boats in Taiwan straits, dropped their plan. As you correctly mentioned, Chinese are only for empty bravado. And their toys are only for show.

You need to revisit your history book a little bit, and see what countries PRC had fought war with, when push came to shovel, and what are the records of them.

[gakakkad]

India is importing 70%+ of her weapons, with a economy size around 1/4 of China's. I don't think it is wise to do so.

Huge portion of whatever fabricated GDP figures you have cooked up has gone into making empty cities and empty malls and so is unusable. The tin cans that you used are completely useless.

Libyan's were you ally's were not they? Did any of your pork dung surface to air missiles not down any american jet over libya? Why does not piggistan your fav munna not use Chinese Helo's ?Why were your state of the FART chinese radar's not able to detect American Helo's over Porkiland?Why is it that you don't launch commercial satellites of so many different countries that India does?

[PrasadZ]

You need to revisit your history book a little bit, and see what countries PRC had fought war with, when push came to shovel, and what are the records of them.

Lemme think. Vietnam gave china a bloody nose, japan did far worse n amreeka just needs to "consider" arms sales around chinese borders for your generals to start crapping in every intl forum.
I agree - the history lessons r fun!
Of course u meant to refer to the glorious victory of mao over nehru, didnt u? Hey wait .. Is mao in or out of your history textbooks?

[shiv]

An arms race though is another matter and I'm all for it, especially since China is clearly winning.

In fact the only reason a Chinese would post this is because it makes China, and by association all Chinese proud to say "We are winning". I would look out for the areas where the Chinese are not showing off - areas where they know they are not winning or perhaps losing.

It is information that China does not release or admit, information that would cause shame or loss of face that China hides. for example the attrition rate of the PLAAF is atrocious and China is too ashamed to admit that. And the hours of flying that PLAAF pilots put in on the remaining F-7/A-8 and other knockoffs is laughably low. That is why there is no information. Only a cheery "we are winning".

Like I said - anything that comes from China could be true or it could be a bluff, but nothing that causes China embarassment will be made public. So it is up to people like me to question Chinese claims and rubbish them unti proof is provided.

[DavidD]

Shiv, your analysis of the weapons door defies logic. The hydraulics for the canard and other control surfaces obviously work fast enough, but not for the doors?? It's clearly dual speed for safety reasons.

It defies your logic because I demand that it be proven that it works fast and is not a Chinese bluff. For any information that comes out of China my attitude is:
1. It could be true
2. It could be bluff

I simply will not take anything from China at face value. The Chinese hide what is insulting to themselves and reveal what they feel will earn them admiration. There is no need to let my attitude be your problem any more than I allow your objections to cloud my viewpoint on this.

My earlier point stands. I may be forced to change my view if the information changes - but until that happens my view is under no obligation to change.

For example. Look at the Pakistan helicopter force. Pakistan uses Cobra helicopters, Alouette II. Fennec, Lama, and Mi-8/Mi-17. Where is the Chinese input other than spares for Mi-8? How come China is unable to supply Pakistan with its long line of indigenous (?) helicopters? Pakistan is using 2nd gen and 3rd gen Western helicopters. Check what the Myanmarese helicopter force is.

Now we have a problem. Here are some Chinese who proudly highlight a "Fifth generation fighter". China is now only making its third generation of fighters. The A-8, J-8 or F-7 knockoffs were "First generation China tech" based on second or third gen Soviet tech (MiG 19/MiG 21). J-10 is China second generation - in service (based on Lavi/F-16 - 4th gen US tech). J-20 is China third gen - yet to enter service. But I will ignore this fallacy and ask how come a country that has not reached world standards in rotary wing aircraft is now claiming state of the art in fixed wing aircraft? And that too before it enters service. There is a credibility gap here. In other words there is a bluff lurking there somewhere. I will stop calling it a bluff when the stuff appears and performs. Until that time I will watch and question. if this defies your logic, that's tough. You do not have to try and explain my logic to yourself if it bothers you. I am allowed to question anything and will continue to be a skeptic.

That does defy my logic, especially when there are ample evidence saying otherwise. The Russians didn't need to make great cars to make great tanks, the Indians didn't have to be world-class rocket artillery makers before becoming good space rocket makers, and the Chinese didn't have to make great bombs before detonating nukes. Major weapons systems acquisition, like war, is as much about intentions as it is about capabilities. The Europeans and the Japanese have the capability to design 5th gen aircrafts by themselves, but neither has intentions strong enough to gather the necessary political will and funding. Did India really have to take this long to design the LCA? Or did non-technologically related distractions slow down its design process all along its way? A strong, unified vision goes a long way with these major weapons systems.

[wong]

I don't want this to be a pissing contest, but you realize the IAF lost its 1,001 plane today??

Or that Indian trainers stall when flying upside down?? Pot calling the kettle black, friend.

An arms race though is another matter and I'm all for it, especially since China is clearly winning.

In fact the only reason a Chinese would post this is because it makes China, and by association all Chinese proud to say "We are winning". I would look out for the areas where the Chinese are not showing off - areas where they know they are not winning or perhaps losing.

It is information that China does not release or admit, information that would cause shame or loss of face that China hides. for example the attrition rate of the PLAAF is atrocious and China is too ashamed to admit that. And the hours of flying that PLAAF pilots put in on the remaining F-7/A-8 and other knockoffs is laughably low. That is why there is no information. Only a cheery "we are winning".

Like I said - anything that comes from China could be true or it could be a bluff, but nothing that causes China embarassment will be made public. So it is up to people like me to question Chinese claims and rubbish them unti proof is provided.

[Boreas]

^^^^
The border issue between China and India is hardly this black and white. I am personally against China accepting the MacMahon line. Democratic Taiwan doesn't even recognize the MacMahon line. That being said, war with India over it is economically impratical. It would just provide an excuse for western sanctions and reprisals. An arms race though is another matter and I'm all for it, especially since China is clearly winning.

Wong,

Being a common Indian I some time get worried of slow pace of my government to build its capability, decades it take to make critical decisions and how it hesitate to stand up strongly against foreign propaganda.

But I also know that we are ready this time. No matter with how slow pace we are inching forward and how corrupt our system is, at any day of the year and any year of this century whenever a war will come, it will be China who will lose more than India. The more this war gets delayed the more China is going to lose. Till a point where China will no longer be able to play its hoax war beagle. And after that point with each day that will pass its power will fall. You simply can't sustain at any place near top. This is what I have figured out from your history. It’s not in the nature of your people. You people are thugs by default. You don't have wisdom of a leader, you are meagre opportunists.

An arms race though is another matter and I'm all for it, especially since China is clearly winning.

If by arms race, you mean a count of pair of hands available in your country then may be you are. In terms of weapons you stand at third place in the world. India at present may be at a place below. But unlike you we can buy from both of the top two guys. And plus european people come and promote arms sale to our country. Last time i checked there is some kind embargo there which prohibits you from touching there wespons.. i dun exactly remember the name of the treaty. I wonder why such a great race as urs is being treated like thives by three fourth of the world. May be sometime you can shed some light on that.


One last thing, I am too personally against India accepting Tibet as a part of china. (And unlike yours, at my place it counts what people think.)

[wong]

Huge portion of whatever fabricated GDP figures you have cooked up has gone into making empty cities and empty malls and so is unusable. The tin cans that you used are completely useless.

Libyan's were you ally's were not they? Did any of your pork dung surface to air missiles not down any american jet over libya? Why does not piggistan your fav munna not use Chinese Helo's ?Why were your state of the FART chinese radar's not able to detect American Helo's over Porkiland?Why is it that you don't launch commercial satellites of so many different countries that India does?

Chinese GDP is actually underestimated. By electricity consumption, car sales and other measures, it is actually already bigger than the US.

Libya doesn't have any Chinese MANPADS.

Pakistan main arm supplier is the US. They get it essentially free. Free beats soft loans any day. Does Pakistan have the S-400 (HQ-19)?

China is banned from launching American satellites or sats with American components for fear of tech transfer. Before that, China had a booming business launching western satellites.

Does that answer all your questions??

[Boreas]

I don't want this to be a pissing contest, but you realize the IAF lost its 1,001 plane today??

ohhh i love the pissing contest (specially when I am taller then the person in front )

Do your government provide such information to its citizens?

If Yes, Can you give me an official figure of how many planes PLAAF have lost in total? If No, do you people have anything called "Right To Information" using which you can "take information" from your government?

If yes, get this information and then we will proceed with the discussion. If No then probably you should think again whether all you want is few long range rockets or something more to be a great nation in this world.

Or that Indian trainers stall when flying upside down?? Pot calling the kettle black, friend.

may be.. but there "nose" doesnt looks stolen from americans and "tail" from russians.

[wong]

I doubt you are taller than the person in front. And this spread is only increasing due to rapidly improving nutrition in China

Go to the height by country section:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

[prithvi]

I doubt you are taller than the person in front. And this spread is only increasing due to rapidly improving nutrition in China

Go to the height by country section:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

yeaaaaa... Yo Ming rocked

[Gaur]

Come on guys! Can we please start showing some maturity and stop derailing this thread?

[Boreas]

I doubt you are taller than the person in front. And this spread is only increasing due to rapidly improving nutrition in China

Go to the height by country section:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

See this is what you guys are all about. You people are still living in some kind of World War II Propagandist mindset. Where the sole objective of state is "self admiration". And to do so you simply hide every fact where you are lagging behind.

From everything written in my previous posts all you got to reply is some chart which "somehow" claims to provide avg national height. (Which in itself is utter nonsense coz it is not possible to get any such data to a respectable level of accuracy. Out of billion plus people in India and China what do you think how many have they measured to get this avg height!!)

But leave it, POINT IS you and every chinese who can speak, will not speak of anything in which he/she realizes China is not up to the mark. Talk about RTI, talk about why nobody wants to sell there weapons to you, talk about why each of the plane you develop looks strikingly similar to something already flying from past 5-10 years in US or Russia. Talk about these things.. and make me accept if you can that you have done even slightest of "real" progress.

[prithvi]

I doubt you are taller than the person in front. And this spread is only increasing due to rapidly improving nutrition in China

Go to the height by country section:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height

See this is what you guys are all about. You people are still living in some kind of World War II Propagandist mindset. Where the sole objective of state is "self admiration". And to do so you simply hide every fact where you are lagging behind.

From everything written in my previous posts all you got to reply is some chart which "somehow" claims to provide avg national height. (Which in itself is utter nonsense coz it is not possible to get any such data to a respectable level of accuracy. Out of billion plus people in India and China what do you think how many have they measured to get this avg height!!)

But leave it, POINT IS you and every chinese who can speak, will not speak of anything in which he/she realizes China is not up to the mark. Talk about RTI, talk about why nobody wants to sell there weapons to you, talk about why each of the plane you develop looks strikingly similar to something already flying from past 5-10 years in US or Russia. Talk about these things.. and make me accept if you can that you have done even slightest of "real" progress.

I wont be surprised if PRC employing paid folks trolling the forum of other nations... Wong what was the reason Chinese govt. overnight dig a hole and buried the bullet train on the spot so that it cant be filmed...? by god.. your govt sensitivity to bad press beats aging Charlie Sheen...

[Virupaksha]

I wont be surprised if PRC employing paid folks trolling the forum of other nations... Wong what was the reason Chinese govt. overnight dig a hole and buried the bullet train on the spot so that it cant be filmed...? by god.. your govt sensitivity to bad press beats aging Charlie Sheen...

Prithvi,

The chinese from mainland are certified paid trolls from the red book. The great chinese internet firewall blocks BR and how many coming out would know english? Have some fun while the mods enjoy a good brawl from above.

[Don]

Lets show some maturity people...

[RajSingh]

BTW I don't know if you guys know or not but Chine Govt. employes thousands of online activists to "guide internet discussion" and to comment on news sections , social media etc. They are paid per Post they make and hence referred to as " 50 cent people" by chinese Internet freedom activists. So just ignore these people also china has tons of brainwashed people who stay hooked to lots of forums all day ( china as 500 million internet users). There is no point in arguing with them , they know zilch about outside world and their source of information is highly limited !!

[eklavya]

^^^^
The border issue between China and India is hardly this black and white. I am personally against China accepting the MacMahon line. Democratic Taiwan doesn't even recognize the MacMahon line. That being said, war with India over it is economically impratical. It would just provide an excuse for western sanctions and reprisals. An arms race though is another matter and I'm all for it, especially since China is clearly winning.

wong:

1) How does a country "win" an "arms race" against a given country? What are the metrics / qualitative / political / geographical factors for victory?

2) Which countries is China "racing" against, in addition to India? Some or all of Japan, US, Vietnam, Australia, Indonesia, Russia, Taiwan, etc?

3) In yor mind, is China "winning" all these races (a) Individually, and (b) collectively (say a mutual defence pact between India, Japan and the US)?

[shiv]

I don't want this to be a pissing contest, but you realize the IAF lost its 1,001 plane today??

Or that Indian trainers stall when flying upside down?? Pot calling the kettle black, friend.

Pot calling kettle black only as a reminder to kettle that kettle claims to be white while being black like pot. Kettle shows off its white bits while pot tends to be honest. The Chinese are generous with their criticism of others faults and generous with self praise. A does of the same medicine brings protests but new new information.

[shiv]

That does defy my logic, especially when there are ample evidence saying otherwise. The Russians didn't need to make great cars to make great tanks, the Indians didn't have to be world-class rocket artillery makers before becoming good space rocket makers, and the Chinese didn't have to make great bombs before detonating nukes. Major weapons systems acquisition, like war, is as much about intentions as it is about capabilities. The Europeans and the Japanese have the capability to design 5th gen aircrafts by themselves, but neither has intentions strong enough to gather the necessary political will and funding. Did India really have to take this long to design the LCA? Or did non-technologically related distractions slow down its design process all along its way? A strong, unified vision goes a long way with these major weapons systems.

Absolutely correct but completely off topic. The Chinese are merely posturing with the J-20. They have released no information other than what is required to give the impression that it is an F-22 class stealth fighter. When the Russian made their lousy cars and aircraft they did not highlight that in the world media of the day. They tried to keep it secret until MiG 17s and MiG 19s proved themselves to be deadly over Korea. The entire world has known for 25 years that the LCA is to be India's MiG 21 replacement with composites, fly by wire and multirole capabilityesigned to give India a firm grip on those technologies.

Nothing much has been released about the origins and role of the J-10. The J-20 is getting strange and undue publicity and to me it looks like a Chinese attempt to boost Chinese pride rather than any new openness. Nothing illogical here.

[shiv]

India is importing 70%+ of her weapons, with a economy size around 1/4 of China's. I don't think it is wise to do so.

Interesting.

This is how I view the issue. India is copying foreign technology, but that copying is done openly and under licence. That means India pays more for copying, and remains sanctions prone, but India gets a little bit more value in terms of picking up the best available stuff without reinventing the wheel. When India buys (to copy under licence) any failure reflect on the supplier who has to use his tech to improve the product reliability against intense competition.

The Chinese copy foreign technology without paying for it. That is certainly cheaper and requires that the Chinese copy even minute items like washers and pins. The Chinese can then claim that their copies are original like the J-11 which is a laughable claim. These are the plus points of China style copying. The downside is that most of the "small items" like pins/washers/turbine blade have been through a process of quality control in the original country to which China does not have access. So failures occur and reliability suffers. And the Chinese have to hide this. The Chinese will never admit failure. It is an unbearable "loss of face" for the Chinese.

[saip]

In arms races there is no clear victory except claiming mine is bigger than yours, but who will decide unless there is a show down? Only USSR lost to USA when it drove itself broke. That is not going to happen with India/China because India is not going to exceed 3% of its GDP if that. But China on the other hand is racing against several like USA,Russia,Vietnam,Taiwan et al and all of them can easily outspend it. May be China will break up just like USSR (fond hope!)

[saip]

I don't want this to be a pissing contest, but you realize the IAF lost its 1,001 plane today??
Or that Indian trainers stall when flying upside down?? Pot calling the kettle black, friend.

In an open societies like India or USA we know exactly how many aircraft were lost but in closed society like yours do you know how many aircraft were lost 10,000, 20,000? No one knows.

[shiv]

Here is a Chinese original

[milanforever]

India is importing 70%+ of her weapons, with a economy size around 1/4 of China's. I don't think it is wise to do so.

Interesting.

This is how I view the issue. India is copying foreign technology, but that copying is done openly and under licence. That means India pays more for copying, and remains sanctions prone, but India gets a little bit more value in terms of picking up the best available stuff without reinventing the wheel. When India buys (to copy under licence) any failure reflect on the supplier who has to use his tech to improve the product reliability against intense competition.

The Chinese copy foreign technology without paying for it. That is certainly cheaper and requires that the Chinese copy even minute items like washers and pins. The Chinese can then claim that their copies are original like the J-11 which is a laughable claim. These are the plus points of China style copying. The downside is that most of the "small items" like pins/washers/turbine blade have been through a process of quality control in the original country to which China does not have access. So failures occur and reliability suffers. And the Chinese have to hide this. The Chinese will never admit failure. It is an unbearable "loss of face" for the Chinese.

Actually you make sense in that Chinese government care a lot about "loss of face", therefore rarely openly admit failure. Sometimes the official news or stories are so ridiculous that it's not even funny :D:D

But overall the CCP has done well in the last 30 years. The current challenge for the government is to control corruption ( I don't think one party state can eliminate it), the inflation and improve the life quality of average Chinese, reduce the disparity between the rich and the poor. As for the political system change, I don't know how long it will take to have a real and efficient democracy system in China. Nobody knows.

Talking about "copy", even Chinese military fans often make fun of SAC, whose work has almost always been replicating Russian jets in the last 30 years or so, mostly the flanker series., except J-8, an indigenous design. However, I still respect them for the work they've done because they contributed to the country, and reverse-engineering can't be that simple. I remember that when I was a kid, I disassembled a clock but failed to put it back!!! CAC , which has come up with J-10 and J-20 , are rated higher among CHinese military fans, which isn't a surprise at all.

Even though the Chinese government hasn't exposed any offical data aobut J-20, actually the fact it allowed normal people to take pictures of the airplane is an improvement compared to before, lol. In contrast, at SAC where the J-15, a replicate of Su-33, is developed, the security is strictly enforced so that nobody can take a picture of it! Now that's ridiculous , seriously, why the heck they wanna do that. We all know it's a Su-33 replicate for god's sake!!! :D:D

[milanforever]

You people are thugs by default.

If you travel to different countries in the world, you'll be really surprised that regardless of the skin color, language, religion, essentially we human beings are the same. For the majority of average people like you and me, life is about making good money, support the family, ,living a good life, things like that. There are good, honest, trustworthy people, also bad people in every country. That's what I found, having travelled in different continents and worked with people from different countries.

To accuse an entire nation thugs, that's just plainly wrong. My English isn't good, but I guess you get what I mean.

BTW, this pissing contest about arm race kinda reminds me of rush hour, when Christ Tucker and Jackie Chan boasted about how great cops their fathers are. One line was like "my dad can catch a bullet with his bare hand" by Jackie, something like that. Hilarious movie :D:D

[wong]

Here is a Chinese original

You realize that the J-11A flanker is a 100% fully licensed product from
Sukhoi right??? In fact the earliest models came out of the same Russian factory as your earliest Su-30MKI. The dispute with Sukhoi is over the J-11B and China's refusal to pay licensing on it and potentially export it. To say somehow the J-11 is a fake copy is ridiculous. China has the full original blueprints purchased from Sukhoi.

[eklavya]

So, what's your point wong? That even when China purchases licence production rights, it would rather not pay any licence fee? We all know that. Doesn't make J-10 or J-11 (a, b, c or d) a Chinese original product. Shiv's point is correct.

Also, you haven't told me how China is winning the arms race. I can only see evidence of $ flushed down the drain producing 3rd rate products. That's the real reason China can't afford to fight India, Taiwan or anyone else. Because the PLA a*ss will get kicked, and that will be the end of the Communist Party.

[shiv]

To say somehow the J-11 is a fake copy is ridiculous. China has the full original blueprints purchased from Sukhoi.

Nonsense. You are bluffing about the "full original blueprints". It's not as if you own the factory and know all that happens in there. You are just trying to bluff your way out. Full original blueprints do not have the materials, manufacture and specs for every single washer, spring, connector and valve. Those have to be imported. China is cloning them. if they fail China won't admit it. The Russians were hoping to do business with China. China shafted them. That's all. Theer you go - that is a Chinese victory for you.

The J-11 is not a fake copy. It is a pretty authentic looking copy. But it is a copy. So what was the point about India "importing 70% of its hardware" again?. India copies under licence. China copies without licence.

[wong]

India currently has a solicitation for small arms with colt, fnh, hk. Small arms. Enough said. Doesn't Indian import cartridges too?

That the PLAAF with its huge budget doesn't need Sukhoi anymore is a good indicator to me. And they did shop PAK-FA to China and China passed. Figure it out.

[Gaur]

Am I the only one who thing this is becoming too childish and pointless? The is starting to look like a videogame thread where hormone charged teenagers feel the need to ridicule each other because they are too insecure and unsure of their own abilities. I am highly surprised that the mods are allowing this to go on.