Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

[Sanku]

Non-Western cultures have this drawback of putting a lot of premium on double speak and cleverness, and I would like our system of governance to adapt this one thing from the West, ie., the Western governance system's or culture's straight forwardness and premium on integrity, at least when it comes to internal governance within Western nations. .

West is straightforward and does not doublespeak and non-west (meaning in oblique double speak Indians here, based on context no doubt) do?

I think you are truly more aligned with the west in every way than Indian, quite frankly, and no unlike what ever pretensions you may have, this is not a good thing.

Clearly you have a evident loathing for all things India and Indian, and essentially want India to be "like America" while clothing that in verbose sense of vicitimhood. (a very notable trait of RoP btw)

You do not understand the difference between

I say this with full knowledge that any talk of borrowing anything from the West leaves one open to the charge of being a "dhimmi" or a slave mentality person from people who have no qualms about using cars, airplanes, cell phones, televisions, radios, computers, software, telecommunications, clothes, and many many more things that have become completely a part of Indian culture, all of which are borrowed from the West, most after independence and a lot of these after the 1992 awakening.

technology and value systems and talk about 1992 awakening?

It would make a lot of sense to develop some "depth" and not be so shallow in perception as to think that use of technology is equivalent to value systems.

Meanwhile why all this talk of west and non-west? Two nice categories? I thought you had trouble with

owever, again wishing for things to be and for things to be a reality are two different things. In the present context in reality, you wouldnt say that a Pakjabi is the same as us, would you ? If you do, please speak for yourself. I wouldnt want to be equated with a Pakjabi muslim,

So while trying hard to distance yourself from fellow Indians in your misplaced sense of superiority, you have no trouble dividing the world in west and non-west and making it clear where your grovelling obsequious sense of what is "good" is.


You know it does remind me quite of JLN; exactly the same sort of nationalism, closer to west ideologically, deep loathing of Indians (in his case with added dimension of distancing himself from majority religion)

The more things change, the more things remain the same.

[shivajisisodia]

^^^^^ Mr. Sanku,

You are an obnoxious person. I dont with to have any further conversation with you. Thanks.

[Sanku]

^^^^^ Mr. Sanku,

You are an obnoxious person. I dont with to have any further conversation with you. Thanks.

Well some one had to say it. So I did, and if there is more of same, I will say it again and again, and so on.

[Atri]

The revolution of America was preceded by genocide of grassroots (the native americans) for 3 centuries. It continued after the middle-class/elite revolution of 1770s (in form of civil war 90 years later).

Any system not based on the aspirations of majority, is an adharmik system. Aspirations of minority have to be addressed in the framework provided by majority's way of life (Sanskriti).

India has tried top-down models. Since the beginning of anglo-Indian wars (1775), till date, the system has been top-down.. Somehow, the Indian pyramid started getting inverted after death of madhavrao-1 in 1772. The importance of elite (brahmins in this case) started increasing, thereby creating wedge between other forces of society. And these guys were only brahmins by birth, not much living up to the meticulous demands of Varna. Just one example.

in 1857 too, the nature of revolution was Kshatriya in nature. it did not have brahmin head, vaishya money and shudra technology. The freedom struggle was mostly brahmin and vaishya aspects of samaaj-purusha. No Kshatriya and no Shudra. Post independence, one aspect of Shudra (technology) was selectively given patronage by JLN. He neglected Brahmin and Kshatriya aspect totally, the result we saw in India's defeat in 1962. Other dimension of shudra (masses, aam janta, numbers) was neglected and only mollified.

Post 1990, in MMS's era, only vaishya aspect is promoted, while brahmin-Kshatriya-Shudra aspect is totally suppressed.

The general populace has to be firmly entrenched in the soil, well fed, well watered. Only such population throws up the brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas of high caliber coming from various "jaatis". It is the Shudras (the grassroots, Aam abdul, Janta, whatever) who nourish and give birth to the trivarga (three categories) of societal forces. never vice-versa.

The trivarga can only steer the wagon of society. India, after 1000 years, is a broken wagon which needs complete refit. To have a more gory mental image, she is like a brutally raped woman whom the rapists could not kill off. When a car needs to be rebuilt, it has to be bottom's up process. The process which ensures emergence of brahmins-Kshatriyas-vaishyas and Saadhus has to be carefully woven. and it is happening slowly. getting impatient while such actions, thinking this is the last life one is having, isn't very @indic@ thing to do. Time is cyclical, Shivaji raje. let it take the course and meanwhile strengthen the foundations. You will be surprised to see how quickly our tree will grow, once it has firmly taken root..

[brihaspati]

^^^But Vivekananda, when writing about "uprisings" and revolutionary changes - talked of the future belonging to the "shudra", and the "shudra" rising to state power. He meant "shudra" typically as "labour" or sometimes in the sense of "underclass".

Bpati Sab,

This one is a real doozie and you know it. I think you may decide yourself to take this one back. And I say this with complete empathy, as we all have done what you did here, in our moment of weakness, ie., quoting something totally out of context to twist the original meaning to something that it was never intended to mean.

Swamiji did say that, no question. But he did not mean that the rest of us should hand over everything we own to the Shudra, give up educating ourselves in favor of reservations for the Shudra in our eduational institutions and make the Shudra the Lord of everything, while the rest of us become Babajis and head for the Himalayas.

Swamiji simply meant that Shudra will step up, get full due for his labor and fully participate in the society, all of which we all believe he should. He did not say that the Shudra or anyone else should be given what is not rightfully his (and I am not one those who argues against some just compensation for historic injustices).

I am indeed intrigued! Here is a quote from Vivekananda himself:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Compl ... /CXII_Mary

Human society is in turn governed by the four castes — the priests, the soldiers, the traders, and the labourers. Each state has its glories as well as its defects. When the priest (Brahmin) rules, there is a tremendous exclusiveness on hereditary grounds; the persons of the priests and their descendants are hemmed in with all sorts of safeguards — none but they have any knowledge — none but they have the right to impart that knowledge. Its glory is that at this period is laid the foundation of sciences. The priests cultivate the mind, for through the mind they govern.

The military (Kshatriya) rule is tyrannical and cruel, but they are not exclusive; and during that period arts and social culture attain their height.

The commercial (Vaishya) rule comes next. It is awful in its silent crushing and blood-sucking power. Its advantage is, as the trader himself goes everywhere, he is a good disseminator of ideas collected during the two previous states. They are still less exclusive than the military, but culture begins to decay.

Last will come the labourer (Shudra) rule. Its advantages will be the distribution of physical comforts — its disadvantages, (perhaps) the lowering of culture. There will be a great distribution of ordinary education, but extraordinary geniuses will be less and less.

If it is possible to form a state in which the knowledge of the priest period, the culture of the military, the distributive spirit of the commercial, and the ideal of equality of the last can all be kept intact, minus their evils, it will be an deal state. But is it possible?

Yet the first three have had their day. Now is the time for the last — they must have it — none can resist it. I do not know all the difficulties about the gold or silver standards (nobody seems to know much as to that), but this much I see that the gold standard has been making the poor poorer, and the rich richer. Bryan was right when he said, "We refuse to be crucified on a cross of gold." The silver standard will give the poor a better chance in this unequal fight. I am a socialist not because I think it is a perfect system, but half a loaf is better than no bread.

The other systems have been tried and found wanting. Let this one be tried — if for nothing else, for the novelty of the thing. A redistribution of pain and pleasure is better than always the same persons having pains and pleasures. The sum total of good and evil in the world remains ever the same. The yoke will be lifted from shoulder to shoulder by new systems, that is all.

Let every dog have his day in this miserable world, so that after this experience of so-called happiness they may all come to the Lord and give up this vanity of a world and governments and all other botherations.

Vivekananda clearly mentions the (1) sequential nature in time of the respective "rules" (2) he mentions "rule" clearly (3) he does not even talk of resisting shudra "rule".

I have clearly mentioned before that I do not look upon persona like that of Vivekananda as infallible, or super human, and I have also clearly mentioned that I feel that what Vivekananda wrote was limited by his experiences, and his knowledge of history as represented or reconstructed up to his time. By using quotes from him, or people like him - with all due respects for their contributions - is like to impose a snapshot of understanding of their period and experience - forever into the future.

For me this is a deviation from the Indic principle of charaibeti - or nonstationarity. I just quoted the actual piece to show that my interpretation was straightforward and not a doozle - and onloy quoted it again only because you referred to him in the context.

[shivajisisodia]

^^^^ I understand the context in which you said it.

However, despite what Swamiji said in that particular passage, which I agree he did say, if you look at the totality of his teachings, I am sure, even in this passage, he did not literally mean that "let the Shudra rule, if for nothing else than for the novelty of the whole thing". I think he meant that now it is the Shudra's turn to come out of their backward state in the society and rise to take their rightful place. I prefer to take that interpretation, although, if you or anybody else thinks that is a reach, I can well understand it.

If there is a literal interpretation of this passage, then clearly, I like you, would respectfully not concur with Swamiji on this particular issue.

[brihaspati]

^^^^ I understand the context in which you said it.

However, despite what Swamiji said in that particular passage, which I agree he did say, if you look at the totality of his teachings, I am sure, even in this passage, he did not literally mean that "let the Shudra rule, if for nothing else than for the novelty of the whole thing". I think he meant that now it is the Shudra's turn to come out of their backward state in the society and rise to take their rightful place. I prefer to take that interpretation, although, if you or anybody else thinks that is a reach, I can well understand it.

If there is a literal interpretation of this passage, then clearly, I like you, would respectfully not concur with Swamiji on this particular issue.

As in my "previous" previous posts about Vivekananda, I meant that I do not support using his quotes or his statements/positions as justifications for something "now" or to be done now. The limitations I imposed on accepting his "historical" claims extends to all such writings by him. In this particular case, that of "shudra rule", I am neither disputing it nor accepting it. It is his particular view of stages of history - which shows an obvious belief in the so-called unilinear schema of historical development, which in his period was predominantly based on an European reconstruction of European history [shared by enlightenment, all the way through to Marxism - but is not unique to the west - the same old golden "brahmin-rule" beginning to the supposedly base, degraded and "evil" underclass rule by the "undeserving" at the end].

[shivajisisodia]

Bpati Sab,

On our way to defining the ideal system of governance for India going forward, I am as a first step, listing out the national priorities of a desirable Indian dispensation, in the current context. Others are free to suggest more, suggest changes, suggest deletions, discuss each priority. I only ask that this list be kept small and we only expect the government to do a few necessary things which will allow them to focus more and do them well. The rest of the functions should be privatized and performed by the private sector.

Please keep in mind that I am not segregating these priorities by what is currently a Central subject or a State subject, as these priorities are for a desired ideal dispensation, with or without our current constitution.

Also, I think this list will be more significant in what it doesnt include rather than what it does include, with a few exceptions.

1. National Defense to protect Indian territorial integrity and vital interests, consistent with our current threat scenario and perception and also future threat scenarios. This would include weapon systems, strategic systems, armed forces, intelligence agencies and other institutions and functions required to provide this function, optimally.

2. Raise revenues for any and all governance, a revenue generation regime which is fair and least burdensome

3. Effective and Efficient Law and Order regime, which includes police and the judiciary and a seperate and decentralized anti-corruption cell. The system should be such that criminal cases with all its appeals have to be mandatorily adjudicated within one year and civil cases with all its appeals to be mandatorily adjudicated within two years. Criminal cases will have a maximum of three appeals and civil cases will have a maximum of two appeals. A mix of Western and native Indian system of judiciary and trial will be followed, which will do away with the causes of delays within the justice system.

4. Regulation of Currency

5. Foreign Policy

6. Protection of the rights of adherents of native religions such as Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism and other native aboriginie and animist religions without infringing on the rights of adherents of other religions such as Islam and Christianity. In those instances where there is a doctrinal difference between native religions and "externally originated" religions, native religious doctrine will prevail, in the social arena, law and order arena and law of the land arena. Conversion out of any native religion to any "external religion" will be highly regulated and will only be permitted if the religious leaders of the native religion which a person is leaving issue a certificate that this person is leaving out of his own free will without coersion or being bribed.

7. Vital infra-structure projects, which absolutely cannot be performed by the private sector. These have to be rare and should generally be avoided to be taken up by the government, even if the private sector passes on the full, true cost of the infra-structure to its users. But there has to be provision for some, just in case.

8. Excellent primary education till grade 6, via vouchers of equal value provided by the government to all children (regardless of any financial, social or any other status of the parents), to be used in a private school of choice of the parents (India in 2011 can afford this, if corruption doesnt come into play and a voucher system will just about remove corruption from education and transfer the reponsibility of using the vouchers wisely with parents).

9. Citizens will be free to undertake any other public project that they choose through organizing grass roots bodies at the village, city and state levels. These grass roots bodies will be free to raise their own revenues through local taxation, either on a project by project basis or on an ongoing basis for long term maintenanace.

10. Protection of vital national resources including the environment, regulation of public airwaves for broadcasting, water(lakes rivers and oceans), forests, vital minerals and metals only and wildlife

Your thoughts, Bpati Sab ?

[brihaspati]

shivajisisodia ji,
you are giving a governance list and what cyclically repeating tasks should remain with the government. Thats fine. But all of them will depend on certain pre-existing internal and external factors. These factors must be identified. What do we want in foreign policy? What do we see as our existential threats and obstacles? What do you think we will need as basic goals internally and externally - in stages, in 10 years, in 20 years, in 30 years, in 50 years. No harm if they will change from what you imagine them to be now. But in trying to project into the future, lots of things and issues get clarified.

Think of it. Infrastructure decisions might be crucially dependent on foreseeable conflict situations. Investments might have to be decided on the basic of possibility of war, need to neutralize and buy "friendship" of selected neighbouring powers. Preexisting internal political alignements might need tactical governmental investments into sectors/regions/enterprises or infrastructure to neutralize factional oppositions - something the private sector will not be interested in.

Also the "religion" (6) aspect will be problematic. You cannot ensure certain rights of certain religions without "infringing" on "others" rights. Perhaps a common civil code, that supersedes individual religious claims is needed? For example the issue of public slaughter of animals. There can be debates about these issues, but once proposed - should be legalized through referendums or any other public approval process appropriate for that period and form of polity.

[shivajisisodia]

shivajisisodia ji,
you are giving a governance list and what cyclically repeating tasks should remain with the government. Thats fine. But all of them will depend on certain pre-existing internal and external factors. These factors must be identified. What do we want in foreign policy? What do we see as our existential threats and obstacles? What do you think we will need as basic goals internally and externally - in stages, in 10 years, in 20 years, in 30 years, in 50 years. No harm if they will change from what you imagine them to be now. But in trying to project into the future, lots of things and issues get clarified.

Think of it. Infrastructure decisions might be crucially dependent on foreseeable conflict situations. Investments might have to be decided on the basic of possibility of war, need to neutralize and buy "friendship" of selected neighbouring powers. Preexisting internal political alignements might need tactical governmental investments into sectors/regions/enterprises or infrastructure to neutralize factional oppositions - something the private sector will not be interested in.

Also the "religion" (6) aspect will be problematic. You cannot ensure certain rights of certain religions without "infringing" on "others" rights. Perhaps a common civil code, that supersedes individual religious claims is needed? For example the issue of public slaughter of animals. There can be debates about these issues, but once proposed - should be legalized through referendums or any other public approval process appropriate for that period and form of polity.

1. You are right, we need to get into more details such as what you correctly point out, what sort of foreign policy we need and what sort of infra-structure we may need, and I would be happy to do that next. But dont you think, that we need an agreement on the legitimate function of the government for all normal situations (as opposed to an "emergency" situation). You yourself had mentioned in one of your posts that we can talk about having a system of governance while simultaneosly defining our priorities, as the system of governance ought to take care of any and all situations, just about. I would much prefer to get to the next level of detail after we agree on the legitimate high level functions first, so that we keep building on top of agreements at lower level. I would appreciate it if you commit to some ideas of your own if you dont agree, so that we can work on bridging the gap to have a meeting of the mind on every step, before building upon agreement as we move forward. Please try not to leave everything open ended and all your options open or things ambiguous or steer around the issues.

2. Why is openly proclaiming a higher status for native religions, "problematic" ? All the Islamic countries do that and most European countries and even the US are "Christian" in everything but name. The Europeans have a culture which ensures full protection and preferences for Christianity without brazenly stating it in their constitutions, primarily because none of those countries with the possible exception of the erstwhile Yugoslavia had more than 6 or 7 % of their populations or thereabouts that belong to minority religions (non-Christian) and also because they can manage the dichotomy between what their constitutions state and the practice on the ground quite well. We dont have to follow their model of having secular constitutions and actual non secularism on the ground. We can have much truer secularism than practiced on the ground anywhere in the world, by openly having our Hindu or Jain or Buddhist or Sikh ethos protected by law even to the point of preference, which inherently would ensure more minority rights than anyone else.
My problem is not so much with Islamic countries providing preference to Islam, but with Islam itself, which does not have any notion of plurality and inherent, built in secularism that our native religions, for example, do. That is the reason, most of us, will find Christianity a little less problematic in relation to Islam, because Christianity has undergone reformation which has made it far more tolerant that it was in the dark ages, certainly far more so today than Islam.

[brihaspati]

Running short of time now - so briefly :
(1) governance - I meant - not in objectives [which is usually well-defined in modern states, and in common, that is regulation of socio-economic interactions among citizens, towards commonly agreed upon targets of development, well-being, and security of life and basic needs] but in the form and structure. You had a problem with "democracy", so need to discuss alternatives.
(2) I agree to most of your underlying objectives. But going into discussions about certain aspects - like your stress on privatization of education - will probably belong better to such threads which exist. I would rather go for a mix of private and state/public educational system, with a rather totalitarian approach to uniform-atize all of education and make it compulsory. This has ulterior motives of ideological undermining of exclusivity claims which becomes much more difficult if private sector is allowed to dominate. We can have such privatization in the future - after the basic cleaning up operation is complete.
(3) the common civil code and constitutionally defined preference orderings are the way to achieve what you elaborate in religious aspects. Think carefully about this - this is how the "western" nations do it - they basically have taken a reconstruction of imagined early Christian values packaged within pre-Christian classical pagan systemic manifestation [republicanism/democracy] as the basis of their "value-system" on which all else -including rival religious claims are vetted. They have cleverly taken off the Christian label from their underlying value-system and thereby has made it the supreme arbiter.

[brihaspati]

Shivajisisodia ji,
to achieve all your stated underlying targets, you actually need more of totalitarian state control initially - and not the decentralization into private enterprise in not just economic sense but also social sense. To achieve that totalitarian control, you need to win over support of the major forces as a tactical route. To do this smoothly, you need to keep the existing legitimization processes undamaged - which means democracy. Just a supposed quote from one of the gurus of totalitarian control for state transitions - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov - when someone complained about the difficulty of getting consensus to achieve supreme power through elections, he supposedly replied that one has to know how to get elected to supreme power.

[devesh]

X-posted from TIRP thread:

Developments on the LAC, PLA's increasing presence along LoC and even IB, frequent and aggressive incursions into Indian territory, inimical actions such as stapled visas, arrogant slighting of Lt. Gen. Jaswal, challenging IN in international waters, objecting to our PM visiting Arunachal Pradesh, objecting to ADB funding to projects in Arunachal, stalling the declaration of LeT, JeM as terror organizations in the UNSC, transfer of nukes and technology to Pakistan, state-sponsored hacking of official Indian websites and a cyber warfare on us, diverting the waters of Brahmaputra, China's open interference in Nepal to have a government inimical to India installed there, China's refusal to support India for UNSC or even other organizations such as Wassenaar, NSG etc, demarche not to attend Nobel Peace Prize ceremony, positioning of CSS-5 targetting India in the Tibet etc. point in only one direction, at least to me. And, that is a relentless march to war.

[shivajisisodia]

Running short of time now - so briefly :
(1) governance - I meant - not in objectives [which is usually well-defined in modern states, and in common, that is regulation of socio-economic interactions among citizens, towards commonly agreed upon targets of development, well-being, and security of life and basic needs] but in the form and structure. You had a problem with "democracy", so need to discuss alternatives..

Ah, so you think that "objectives" are "usually well-defined in modern states and in common....". I think this is true, with maybe one or two exceptions. Just about every modern state or even a traditional state at least agrees on those basics that I had mentioned in my objectives. It is so basic that it is very obvious, isnt it ? Crystal clear, because which people will not intuitively put national security, law and order, protection of their natural resources, education for their children as their priorities in terms of their national objectives ? These are fundamentally very basic objectives without achieving which you cannot even survive, right ? Even you must be wondering, why Shivaji is wasting my time, talking about something so basic. The objectives are a given, "why dont we move on to the next step, the form and structure", you are thinking. But please pay particular attention to what I am saying now. The objectives that I listed out, which you instinctively agreed to (with the exception of private education), which you would think everyone would agree to, are actually not the priorities of a majority of Indians today. Most Indians may pay lip service to these objectives, but in their heart they are not invested in these objectives. Because in their hearts, most Indians do not feel that way, they act on the ground, day in and day out, as if they have an entirely different set of objectives. Those are as follows:

1. To live out our lives within the narrow sphere of our castes, regions, sectarian groups, religions and to define even more sharply our differences based on these factors as opposed to coming together to form a larger community, which is called a nation

2. To live in an endless struggle with each other for economic resources and political power, based again on castes, regions, religions and sectarianism. In other words be in a continuous state of caste and sectarian civil war, albeit, a cold civil war, which sometimes turns into a hot civil war.

3. For groups within India that have larger numbers to constantly seek to exact revenge against other smaller groups, using past grievences as a justification, using tools for this retribution, such as job reservations, education reservations and causing consciously as a strategy to totally collapsing law and order (both police and judiciary)

4. To pursue massive transfer payments from one narrow group to another, in the forms of massive subsidies, again using past grievences as justification

5. To deliberately keep the center weak and all its institutions such as the governments and other community institutions toothless to pursue goals such as law and order and national defense, so that caste and sectarian groups can continue their internecine warfare without any check

6. To deliberately weaken the native religions so that even religious authority cannot fill the vaccum to check this internecine struggle, again using the argument that these religions did nothing to prevent past exploitation of large groups of people by the elite of the past

7. To deliberately weaken the traditional culture, so that no order is imposed on the society even by healthy cultural traditions, again so that groups can continue their civil wars with impunity

All our ills, such as lack of national will to pursue robust national defence and foreign policy, enforce fair and stringent law and order, corruption, and all other ills that plague us, are a result of these "actual" objectives of the majority of our population.

So, Bpati Sab, where do you find a consensus in India on the objective list that I had laid out and that you instinctively agreed with, even getting a little irritated at me for perhaps wasting your time by getting you to even think about them. Arent the objectives you and I agree on, diametrically opposed to the objectives that the majority in India have, as I listed out above ? I would hope you would not provide complicated arguments to prove that the objectives are indeed the same, but something else is missing. No, the objectives themselves are different. Therefore, I dont mind saying this, whether someone likes it or not, in that sense, I do separate myself from the majority of the Indians. I dont share their objectives, as listed above by me. But that doesnt make me any less of an Indian or any less entitled to fight for what I believe in, despite being in a minority, as far as numbers go. What choice do I have, but to fight for the objectives that I believe in ? Should I just lay down and die, because the majority is against me ? And precisely because of this disconnect in objectives between the majority and mine, and because I feel that my objectives are indeed morally right and necessary for all of our survival, I have no hesitation in moving away from the style of "democracy" practiced today.

(2) I agree to most of your underlying objectives. But going into discussions about certain aspects - like your stress on privatization of education - will probably belong better to such threads which exist. I would rather go for a mix of private and state/public educational system, with a rather totalitarian approach to uniform-atize all of education and make it compulsory. This has ulterior motives of ideological undermining of exclusivity claims which becomes much more difficult if private sector is allowed to dominate. We can have such privatization in the future - after the basic cleaning up operation is complete..

On primary education, I would much rather stay with privatization, but address your concern of uniformizing the education by advocating totalitarianism in point number 3 below, ie., in enforcing a basically nativist religious state, for lack of a better term, let us call it a Hindu nation. The character of the Indian majority is such that once they realize that the Hindu nation is sanctioned by the state and enforced by the state with vigor and strength, the "private sector" will automatically stop resisting and come around to teaching the curriculum you and I wish for. We should here, use our people's inherent attraction to "power" and let them coalesce voluntarily around the "new power center", which is the Hindu State.
However, this is a discussion on strategy, not on objectives and I could be pursuaded to go your way on this, after further discussion. Important thing is that we have exactly the same objective in mind on this.

(3) the common civil code and constitutionally defined preference orderings are the way to achieve what you elaborate in religious aspects. Think carefully about this - this is how the "western" nations do it - they basically have taken a reconstruction of imagined early Christian values packaged within pre-Christian classical pagan systemic manifestation [republicanism/democracy] as the basis of their "value-system" on which all else -including rival religious claims are vetted. They have cleverly taken off the Christian label from their underlying value-system and thereby has made it the supreme arbiter.

On this, I have stated in my previous post, that we need not follow the Western lead on this, although I am not one of those who advocates not taking anything from the West. But on this one, to restore the self confidence and self esteem of our people, it is a necessary step to declare ourselves a Hindu Nation, so that we start healing ourselves psychologically and stand up again as a proud people. It is also a message we should send to the world, that we are a proud people, and our brand of secularism within the ambit of Hinduism is superior to the Western brand of secularism, because our tolerance level towards minorities will always be much higher than theirs.

Your thoughts ?

[shivajisisodia]

Shivajisisodia ji,
to achieve all your stated underlying targets, you actually need more of totalitarian state control initially - and not the decentralization into private enterprise in not just economic sense but also social sense. To achieve that totalitarian control, you need to win over support of the major forces as a tactical route. To do this smoothly, you need to keep the existing legitimization processes undamaged - which means democracy. Just a supposed quote from one of the gurus of totalitarian control for state transitions - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov - when someone complained about the difficulty of getting consensus to achieve supreme power through elections, he supposedly replied that one has to know how to get elected to supreme power.

Bpati Sab,

What you are asking for is the approval from the majority to pursue objectives that the majority does not hold as priority objectives. How on earth will we ever be able to do that ? It is like asking the politicians in this current context to come up with a really and truly effective law against corruption ? How on earth will you ever get them to do that, except by putting them under pressure ? It may be possible to put the political class under some pressure from the general population, temporarily for corruption, because the political class after all is a small minority. How on earth are you going to pressure the majority into doing something that they consider profoundly against their interest ? Are you thinking of somehow tricking them? Forget it. They are much much smarter than me and even you (and I say that with all due respect). They will trick us ten times, before we can trick them, as they have been doing for the past 60 years.

The only way to put pressure on the majority is the "sword" and that by definition is outside the ambit of what we call "democracy".

[Sanku]

Yes India is doomed, all Indians are hopeless, only Shivaji Sisodia with his flaming sword will cause the low life Indias to run about in fear and bring save India from Indians.

Dearest ShivajiSisodia!! Considering that India is such a mess that no Indian speaks for India but you, why do you care? I mean clearly no one identifies a India other than you, thus by your definition there is no India. At least not the one that you think is India.

So given for you India == "India which lives only in ShivajiSisodias mind" why don't you invent any other country to bless with your love in your mind and spare the rest of us please?

We will get along fine without you trying to create a new India for us, thank you very much.

[shivajisisodia]

Xposted from another thread - shiv ji,
in several posts on other threads I have said that the Indian rashtra is weakening. I have also said it to some circles in the corridors of power. It is a thoroughly disliked viewpoint. If you seriously meant what you said - you may need to be careful depending on the strength of your networks and say it at your own peril.

You are absolutely right. And the reason Indian rashtra is weak is because of my analysis in my last but one post, where I analyze the reasons for its weakness (namely the "suicidal objectives of a large number of Indians").

You are also right about this being a "highly disliked" viewpoint.

Just the threat of being exposed, as my analysis in the previously refered post did, brings out all kinds of vitriol and animousity from certain people, including some posters here. It is one thing to disagree and disagree vehemently, it is quite another to personally attack someone in a low class manner, particularly a person who they have never met before or know from Adam. What could be the reason for such an "ad hominem" attack ? Such poison is only spewed when one's deeply entrenched vested interests are at risk of being exposed. I dont take these attacks personally, nor will I respond to them in kind, but I am simply making a point that these vitriolic attacks further validate the truthfulness of what I have said in my posts about the skewed "objectives" of certain people in India, which in turn weakens the entire Rashtra.

[RajeshA]

brihaspati garu,

just wanted to know your views about Dharmic "dawas" or "care/charity" organizations? Would you be knowing of some links directory to them?

TIA

[RajeshA]

shivajisisodia ji,

the way to move forward is the

1. learning of Sanskrit
2. re-dissemination of the Dharmic thought in the grassroots,
3. education of Indic history to the masses,
4. strengthening of Hindu community and Hindu identity, by making the varna system as a means of organizing mental faculties and economy, and not birth-based caste- varna equation
5. build Hindu networks based on humanitarian help, ecology, virtual Indic libraries, summer schools, physical fitness, sports, festival organization
6. networking of all Indic organizations
7. progressive control over the media

[shivajisisodia]

^^^^^ No disagreements with your Mr. RajeshA, Sir.

You are correctly talking about re-orienting and re-focusing our national effort in a positive direction.

The problem is, Sir, that none of these things can be achieved without the right minded people like you and many on the forum, acquiring some political power first. If you go out and try to do these things without political power, you will be laughed off, worst, perhaps killed off. The large majority of Indians are too vested in their narrow short term view of what their interests are, to have any kind of incentive to listen to volunteers without political power preaching what you say should be preached.

[brihaspati]

Bpati Sab,

What you are asking for is the approval from the majority to pursue objectives that the majority does not hold as priority objectives. How on earth will we ever be able to do that ? It is like asking the politicians in this current context to come up with a really and truly effective law against corruption ? How on earth will you ever get them to do that, except by putting them under pressure ? It may be possible to put the political class under some pressure from the general population, temporarily for corruption, because the political class after all is a small minority. How on earth are you going to pressure the majority into doing something that they consider profoundly against their interest ? Are you thinking of somehow tricking them? Forget it. They are much much smarter than me and even you (and I say that with all due respect). They will trick us ten times, before we can trick them, as they have been doing for the past 60 years.

The only way to put pressure on the majority is the "sword" and that by definition is outside the ambit of what we call "democracy".

I think it will not be easy to convince you about the necessity and inevitability of mass mobilization or significant portion of "mass" mobilization. You remind me of my teenage years when most of us dreamt of ushering in "revolutions". More than two decades and mainstream "peaceful" and secular orgs after that, and a lot of individual roaming about, I do see things a lot differently! Hopefully, in the future I can entice you into traveling incognito with me into certain regions and social segments I feel you have not really gone "into".

Elections are a process of two-way bargaining and a game. Here the candidates play a game with voters by which one set of issues are negotiated between them, and the elected candidates play among themselves in the other second-stage game for other issues. So far what you see is that the payoff in the second game is personal wealth and power required to maintain such wealth. This percolates down to the other primary game, where therefore gradually the same personal-wealth criteria is adopted.

As you point out, the primary game is also now about "wealth", and you cannot change that easily - and if I may add, even with the "sword". In fact it is quite likely that they will take up the sword against you, and will prove a vastly superior force. What if you play that primary game as it is, partly compromising partly not compromising, but using the second game to change the issues and rewards? Partly "give in" in the primary game to the voters, but use the resulting support to carry out longer term objectives - instead of the congrez style enrichment endgame.

The way this discussion is going, perhaps you should take this to the GDF version of this thread - which I started to deal with such situations. Is that alright?

[RajeshA]

shivajisisodia ji,

even in the present political arrangement, there are ways and means of achieving more influence.

• One builds small groups of dedicated youth, who can show some street presence.
• One shows politicians, that one's group can provide security, campaigning, etc.
• One proves to politicians that one has a captive vote-bank. For example you will find Punjabi politicians going and asking various Deras for support.
• Then you negotiate with those politicians, what support they can give you in terms of resources, to increase your group, to put up your own 'dera' or temple, to open your Dharmic schools, ityadi, ityadi.
• Same way one can go and ask Hindu businessmen to show some philanthropy. In return you can do a Jagratan, a Chowki, a Pooja, or something for them, or provide security for the street in which they have their jewelry, ityadi shops.
• If Hindu businessmen are convinced that you have an honest group and you are doing humanitarian and religious work, they too may help. Just imagine what a big group the Hindu businessmen are and how much yearly chanda one could collect from them, to finance one's own Dharmik NGO.
• Consider such Dharmic groups working all across India increasing their presence and working in their communities, giving vocational training, imparting education, including Dharmic education, building Dharmic schools, providing care to the needy, managing orphanages, etc. All the funds and cooperation from politicians they get would help them expand.
• Within a decade and a half, you will be having a very charged groundswell of support from the grassroots, and you will be able to change the course of any government at the center.

The thing is, without grassroots on your side, any true regime change will not be possible. With democracy however it is all possible.

[brihaspati]

brihaspati garu,

just wanted to know your views about Dharmic "dawas" or "care/charity" organizations? Would you be knowing of some links directory to them?

TIA

The "Dawa" is openly and clearly stated to be a means of "conversion" of non-Muslims at peace time or when no jihad exists, as well as maintaining Islamic structural bonds for Muslims. Dawa is not pure "care" or "charity" - it takes up from Christian "care" which also is openly acknowledged to be meaningless if it is also not done from "submission to belief in salvation by belief in Jesus" in the receiver and the giver. This essential political requirement of allegiance - does not exist in such an open and tangible form in any "Hindu" org I know of, except perhaps of course only two - and one of which is the only religious villain of course in India, and the other under the constant shadow of suspicion even if not that much a public villain- both accused of playing the proselytizing role which apparently is acceptable onlee from the non-Hindu. I am personally not associated with either of them - although I have many friends in the second one. There is one man who started a programme of training "priests" from children at an ashram near Hardwar- giving them upaveetam and starting them on a rigorous course- from all socially claimed by-birth hierarchies. That could be a starting point.

Is Dawa the way to go? I am not so sure! we need a transitional period when all pre-existing religious authority have to be undermined to a certain extent, since most of them would have already been penetrated by the underhand wings of the rashtra and various material interest networks. The prominent leadership of such religious authorities would have most likely been already "compromised" and subject to manipulation by the existing regimes. Therefore they may serve more as obstacles. Why would we want to strengthen them further by promoting "dawa" even if it is "hindu"?

[RajeshA]

brihaspati garu,

I am very much in favor of Dharmics using the "Dawa" model to reach out to downtrodden. Let's not call it "Dawa", let's call it "Seva"! It is a model that, IMHO, puts the elite in touch with the grassroots pretty quickly, and breaks the social barriers.

One can also use the 'Dera' model.

As for pre-existing religious authority, I can only say we need to examine everybody on a case-by-case basis, and decide which hierarchy to overthrow. One can have a very stringent criteria along which every religious figure is observed. Those who fail the test are overthrown or rather eased out.

[brihaspati]

First need to bring all the "great kings" to meet regularly in open public enclaves. But I still have deep misgivings. All are surrounded by the eyes and ears of the entrenched interests behind existing rashtryia regimes. Why waste the effort? If you are really keen - better start a new movement with explicit "seva" component, decentralized is better. However, then issues of rejecting those who get "corrupted" in the process needs centralization. I don't know - whether we should invest in that effort, or whether it should go to more politically conscious efforts!

[RajeshA]

brihaspati garu,

When I speak of existing Hindu organizations networking with each other, I speak of generating an national Hindu consciousness - philosophical, spiritual, historical, social values, community and identity consciousness.

However I do not consider it as the core of an organized effort to regain control over the rashtra. The above is more like the background ambience, but a vital contribution to the environment.

I too consider building the new organization from the ground up as necessary. The organization needs a new thought out strategy and vision. Something one cannot produce, if one is forced to compromise with other outsiders, other Hindu groups.

I also think, that 95% of the effort should go in a positive direction, in pursuing an agenda, and not in petty politics, conspiracy theories, and being prisoners of suspicions. All that is okay, but it is a burden on one's resources, so it is best to try to reduce that.

I think religion needs to brought back to the community level. If some pilgrim stands for several hours to get one minute darshan of the deity in some temple, then it shows some dedication but does not enhance his ties to the community. Community and Bhakti need to be brought much closer together. Except for politics and finance, I think the Dharmic Orgs should be much more involved with the spiritual, mental, familial and social well-being of the Hindu. They should become community centers, and the hub of the community. Bhakti, Dharma, Sanskriti should again find space in the community.

[devesh]

^^^
I like Brihaspati ji's interpretation of the Purusha Sukta. IMVHO, the first step should be to form societal bonds which can form large "self-sustaining" groups from various castes and financial backgrounds. this can be achieved by the "there is a Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra in everybody" model. this concept, if grilled in from an early age will go a long way in erasing the apathy that has become common after 1000 years of cynicism.

I personally think that is the way to go forward. there must be focus on developing the qualities of all four Varnas in everybody. of course, later on in life, people will specialize in things that they like. but they must be "in touch" with all qualities and ready to take up any duty based on the needs.

[vishvak]

^^^
I like Brihaspati ji's interpretation of the Purusha Sukta. IMVHO, the first step should be to form societal bonds which can form large "self-sustaining" groups from various castes and financial backgrounds. this can be achieved by the "there is a Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra in everybody" model. this concept, if grilled in from an early age will go a long way in erasing the apathy that has become common after 1000 years of cynicism.

I personally think that is the way to go forward. there must be focus on developing the qualities of all four Varnas in everybody. of course, later on in life, people will specialize in things that they like. but they must be "in touch" with all qualities and ready to take up any duty based on the needs.

Just my 2 paise as a side note. Considering Failures (more like weakness) of Swami Nithyananda’s Organization
Just suggesting that dharmic organizations need to take a lot of people on the side too. For example, a maze of lawyers (very necessary as per me, an official line can be that Dharmic religions are a minority in the global village & Desh being birth place of all Dharmic religions), etc.

Plus, considering the past experience, once Dharma is protected, Dharma will protect other religions too.

Plus a definite way to project image in a manner on media perhaps by 100% share control that can not be over-taken by forming trusts, etc. What I have observed is that media is keen to take up a story not from the cause but from an intermediate step and then hide this. Such shortcomings must be exposed so that cheat-media lose their credit. Reputation is not something that is stable. Either earn it or lose it.

[Samudragupta]

MB seemed to have skipped NIC meet and celebrated death anniversary of "Bagha Jatin" in the Writer's Building.....Why this sudden glorifying of this personality? We all know what he stood and fought for?

Jitendranath Mukhopadhyay, the 78-year-old grandson of Bengali revolutionary philosopher Bagha Jatin, will visit Writers' Buildings on Saturday to pay respect to his grandfather on his death anniversary. Chief minister Mamata Banerjee is flying Jitendranath down to Kolkata from abroad to observe the day.

Never saw any agency to glorify this personality let alone Government.....

[brihaspati]

MB is in tune with the undercurrent of Bengali sentiment as it is turning. I had suggested that she will turn to revivalims of the regional identity - and the Bengali inherent radicalism is going in a certain direction, which is perhaps not yet apparent to our anal-ysts.

This is just an initial bubble, although a political step used to send a signal to the Congress in the current balance of forces in the state. MB herself perhaps does not realize entirely the political destiny of her party and her state, but future often casts a shadow on the present.

[shivajisisodia]

Folks,

Today being 9/11, there is a lot of stuff on TV and the media about it. I also had a day off, considering it is a Sunday and so I was browsing the web for 9/11 related stuff. I ran into several gruesome beheading videos which showed the Islamists in Afghanistan and Iraq and around the world beheading people. I have included a few links to those gruesome websites below at the end of the POST. ALLOW ME TO WARN EVERYONE. THESE VIDEOS ARE EXTREMELY GRAPHIC AND ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT SUITABLE FOR WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND EVEN MALES WHO ARE FAINT OF HEART. IF ANYONE HAS ANY APPREHENSIONS AT ALL, PLEASE DO NOT RISK WATCHING THESE VIDEOS. ALSO, DEPENDING ON THE COUNTRY THAT YOU ARE IN, YOU MAY JUST NOT HAVE ACCESS TO SOME OR ALL OF THE WEBSITES BELOW.

I had obviously known that Islamists have a very long history of beheading. I also have been following off and on, the beheadings going on in Afghan, Iraq, Saudi, Iran and other Islamic countries either by governments or by terrorists. I had even watched some videos before today, which were awful. I also remember watching a video on the web several years ago, of the Afghan Mujahadeen fighting the Soviets, using a technique called the "Shirting" where they would cut the skin around a Russian soldiers waist, and then using the skin like a shirt, pull it up, skinning the soldier alive. The Islamists such as the Taliban and others in PAk are also doing it to other muslims, who they think are not muslim enough or muslims at all. The Islamists have for centuries purging from amongst their ranks, those who had more liberal tendencies, more humane tendencies, or moderates or the more tolerant. So, now what is left among them is genetically the most extreme violent strains. They have killed off most of the people, who were genetically more human, leaving only the monsters now.

This got me to think about what our ancestors, even of the muslims of the subcontinent, who were Hindus in the past, before their conversion, what our ancestors must have gone through during innumerable muslim invasions and during the centuries of Islamic rule in India. Of course, some of the stories are well known. Prathvi Raj Chouhan, for instance, was blinded by Gauri and taken to Afghanistan as a prisoner who was then used as Gauri's slave for life. But in addition to these well known stories, I am sure there were untold ordinary people who were either tortured, beheaded, their women raped, their children killed in the worst and the most painful possible way. Unfortunately, a lot of the record of that graphic history is not available, although there is some isolated book or two that hints at these Islamic atrocities in India.

We Hindus, on the other hand, through internal divisions and warfare, have a history of treachery, where we never backed our bravest, most courageous and most defiant, all in the name of expediency, or timing or patience or a myriad of excuses, but basically all a result of cowardice. This resulted in repeated losses in wars and conflicts and our best and brightest who had the best genes, being killed off. So, what is now left among us Hindus are the most cowardly, most calculating, most "clever", as opposed to the most courageous.

So, now we have a combination of a predominently genetically cowardly Hindu population combined with a monstrously inhuman and brutal Muslim population, co-existing on the Indian subcontinent. No prizes for guessing, where we are heading and where our future lies.

This is a strategic scenrario for the future of the Indian subcontinent.







http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/cat ... s-graphic/

http://www.bestgore.com/beheading/worst ... lood-loss/

http://www.bloodshows.com/bloodhtml/Beh ... Clear.html

http://www.bestgore.com/beheading/nepal ... ers-nepal/

[Airavat]

This got me to think about what our ancestors, even of the muslims of the subcontinent, who were Hindus in the past, before their conversion, what our ancestors must have gone through during innumerable muslim invasions and during the centuries of Islamic rule in India. Of course, some of the stories are well known. Prathvi Raj Chouhan, for instance, was blinded by Gauri and taken to Afghanistan as a prisoner who was then used as Gauri's slave for life. But in addition to these well known stories, I am sure there were untold ordinary people who were either tortured, beheaded, their women raped, their children killed in the worst and the most painful possible way. Unfortunately, a lot of the record of that graphic history is not available, although there is some isolated book or two that hints at these Islamic atrocities in India.

There is not a single book that hides that graphic history! The Muslim chroniclers gloried in all the slaughtering and enslaving of infidels because it was a religious duty. For instance Ala-ud-din Khalji's conquest of Gujarat in 1299, they state:

With a view to holy war, and not for the lust of conquest, he enlisted under their banners about 14,000 cavalry and 20,000 infantry, ... They went by daily marches through the hills, from stage to stage, and when they arrived at their destination at early dawn they surrounded Kambáyat, and the idolaters were awakened from their sleepy state of carelessness and were taken by surprise, not knowing where to go, and mothers forgot their children and dropped them from their embrace. The Muhammadan forces began to “kill and slaughter on the right and on the left unmercifully, throughout the impure land, for the sake of Islám,” and blood flowed in torrents. They plundered gold and silver to an extent greater than can be conceived, and an immense number of brilliant precious stones, such as pearls, diamonds, rubies, and emeralds, etc., as well as a great variety of cloths, both silk and cotton, stamped, embroidered, and coloured.

They took captive a great number of handsome and elegant maidens, amounting to 20,000, and children of both sexes, “more than the pen can enumerate,” and thirteen enormous elephants, whose motions would put the earth in tremor.” In short, the Muhammadan army brought the country to utter ruin, and destroyed the lives of the inhabitants, and plundered the cities, and captured their offspring, so that many temples were deserted and the idols were broken and trodden under foot, the largest of which was one called Somnát, fixed upon stone, polished like a mirror, of charming shape and admirable workmanship.

You can read all these original texts here: Persian texts in translation

Prathvi Raj Chouhan, for instance, was blinded by Gauri and taken to Afghanistan as a prisoner who was then used as Gauri's slave for life.

Uhhh....what??

[shivajisisodia]

^^^ I stand corrected. I meant to say that Prithvi Raj was taken to Afghanistan as a prisoner and then executed as a slave.

[Airavat]

^^^Even that may be a myth. But it's off topic and was discussed in detail in the Historical Battles thread.

[shivajisisodia]

^^^Even that may be a myth. But it's off topic and was discussed in detail in the Historical Battles thread.

Would certainly like to get rid of false notions. Please let me know where the Historical Battles thread is. I looked but could not find it.

Also, thanks for the link to "translated Persian texts". I look forward to going over some of that material as I get time, and get more educated.

I am relieved to note that a lot of this Islamic atrocity in India is well recorded, at least in the Islamic texts, because in their perverse thinking, they actually think that what they did was a good thing, and then recorded it with pride, rather than in shame, as any other normal people would do. They still think it is a matter of pride, only one of the examples of which is the naming by PAki of their missiles after these genocidal monsters, and of course continuing the barbaric killings and torture and beheadings that I alluded to in my previous thread.

I am curious, however, why there are not many purely Hindu sources that we can go to to read about these atrocities. Is it simply because recordation of current events or history was not a very important part of our culture even as late as the middle ages ? Or was there another reason ? Or are there several good Hindu sources, where one can read about these atrocities in a comprehensive way ?

It is quite well known that the Islamic invaders in many instances, such as in case of Ghori and Ghaznavi and I presume, although I am not sure about Abdali and Nadir Shah, took thousands of Hindu women and children as slaves back to where they came from (Afghan and Iran, presumably). Do we have any record of what happened to them ? They presumably must have been converted. But were they integrated into those Islamic societies or were they segregated and treated as second class citizens ? Or is it the case that these people were mostly used for hard labor and slave labor and thus mostly died off, due to cruelty and extreme physical burden that they bore ? It would have been a true eye opener, if some of these Hindu slaves had kept a diary of sorts that may have survived, to give us a first hand account of exactly what they suffered and how they lived and the conditions that existed in Afghan and Iran then.

[vishvak]

It is quite well known that the Islamic invaders in many instances, such as in case of Ghori and Ghaznavi and I presume, although I am not sure about Abdali and Nadir Shah, took thousands of Hindu women and children as slaves back to where they came from (Afghan and Iran, presumably). Do we have any record of what happened to them ? They presumably must have been converted. But were they integrated into those Islamic societies or were they segregated and treated as second class citizens ? Or is it the case that these people were mostly used for hard labor and slave labor and thus mostly died off, due to cruelty and extreme physical burden that they bore ? It would have been a true eye opener, if some of these Hindu slaves had kept a diary of sorts that may have survived, to give us a first hand account of exactly what they suffered and how they lived and the conditions that existed in Afghan and Iran then.

Slaves have no human rights.

I don't think Hindu slaves in those times had caste on pure lands.

Getting Hindu slaves 'integrated' could have been very tricky I think and never heard as such.

"if some of these Hindu slaves had kept a diary of sorts that may have survived"
Another way to know the same could be interviewing those who were enslaved and later rescued by various means such as on the way back etc.

[shivajisisodia]

"if some of these Hindu slaves had kept a diary of sorts that may have survived"
Another way to know the same could be interviewing those who were enslaved and later rescued by various means such as on the way back etc.

Quite right. But alas, I dont know if any rescued Hindu slaves wrote anything either. It would be wonderful, if someone has access to some first hand accounts, if there exist any.

A Hindu in Pakistan in the present day, perhaps someone like who Pakis derogatively call, "Haris" , if he writes an autobiography or a book on his life and times, would come close to what a Hindu slave went through in an Islamic society like Afghan in those days. Perhaps, the Hari people should maintain a secret diary or sorts or some Western journalist/s, who normally are so bleeding heart when it comes to the plight of muslims in India or Kashmir, can infiltrate these Haris, and document their lives. Yeah, fat chance. However, in all seriousness, maybe an Indian nationalist media outlet or journalists can embark on such a misison.

I know that there have been groups of Hindus right since partition, but continuing into recent years, including last year, have been migrating out of Pakistan and coming to India, initially on tourist visas and then they settle in various Indian cities where their relatives live and can give them a new start. A lot of them are ethnically Sindhis and their cousins already in India do what they can for them. I have read newspaper articles about them, one as recent as a few months ago, about one group of Hindus who were so traumatized and fearful that they were even afraid to speak out about their lives in Pakistan to their relatives and the Indian press. All they kept repeating was, "we would rather die than go back, please ask the government to grant us permanent visas". Then slowly it came out that they were under tremendous pressure to convert in Pak and their lives and possessions were in constant danger there, as even the normally inept state internal security apparatus such as the police refused to accord them any protection and a few of their daughters had been kidnapped and forcibly converted and married off to Muslim men, never to be seen or hear from again.

[brihaspati]

A curious wording of a continuing (and increasingly loud not necessarily in numbers) theme :
http://blog.offstumped.in/2011/09/12/na ... on-part-2/

It is interesting to note that this "reconstruction" attempt is undertaken in the public domain only on "saffron" leadership at Delhi, but I don't find it being done for counterpart congrez leadership at Delhi.

Northern plains powers - historically - have always lost control over north, when they lose the gateways of the trade-resources-human flow across the GV-Saurashtra arc. Both Gujarat and Bengal - the two gateways, are now mostly out of control of the north politically.

Historically, this is the time when also northern factions have looked for support from further north-west - the other gateway into the resource arc - to re-establish control. Traditionally, the first target has been to try and take the western gateway.

What should be significant are the preparations and outcome for 2012 UP elections. It can be the key excuse for desperate parties.

[joshvajohn]

Though I agree with US Congress in terms of best governance of Modi, I think BJP should not revolve around some individuals if it has to come to power next term and if they ever dream of Advani being the pm. There is a lot of fear factor around Modi still in the mind of people as well as in the mind of political parties the events in Gujarat which many would assume that may be repeated at national level. The central governance is possible only with anti congress joining in the coalition with BJP. I appreciate Modi for the courage to bounce back in many ways in terms of development and administration but if BJP has to come to power it has to work with people with diverse views and accommodate wide range of people who may converge and sympthise with many of their concerns. They should not behave like missionaries in the sense of imposing their own version of Hinduism in India on all people as there are varieties of Hindu texts and versions that need to be accommodated besides the minorities and their views particularly that of Muslims. I do not wish to see India turning into another Pakistan style where everyday there will be a bomb here and there because the minorities are pushed to sides by the governments. This is purely a political critique and opinion about India's future leadership.
Narendra Modi's Gujarat best example of effective governance: US report
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 977258.cms

[Arjun]

They should not behave like missionaries in the sense of imposing their own version of Hinduism in India on all people as there are varieties of Hindu texts and versions that need to be accommodated besides the minorities and their views particularly that of Muslims.

Totally unnecessary fear. What version of Hinduism has Modi imposed on Gujarat over the last 10 years?

You make the common mistake of applying the Christian / Abrahamic template in evaluating Hindutva. Hinduism does not impose religious dogmas, unlike either Islam or Christianity....