India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 12 Sep 2011 16:26

between 18 and 24 if ever the decision is officially confirmed and the go ahead is eventually given. The process was postponed for budgetary reasons but with the Swiss Franc being currently very strong vs the Euro they see an opportunity to soften the price.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Sep 2011 12:32

TIME TO TAKE OFF - India must take a long, hard look at its aeronautical policies

Calcutta Telegraph - by Brijesh D. Jayal - Retired air marshal of the Indian Air Force

The following lessons emerge from the unending saga of the MMRCA. Firstly, because we suffer from a lack of confidence in the integrity of our own decision-making processes and people, we have externalized factors like impartiality and transparency, which, though vital, should have remained internal to the system. In the process, we have deprived the operational user of the freedom to make optimum operational and technical choices. The cure may well be worse than the disease.

Secondly, no operational requirement can be absolute. It must be tempered with the practical budgetary and industrial environment within which the entire national security edifice operates, including strategic benefits expected to flow into defence research, development and industry. Shortlisting based on just operational evaluation without other factors runs counter to this philosophy. Hence affordability must begin to form a significant input for the defining of service operational requirements.

Ashley J. Tellis, a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, who specializes in international security, defence and Asian strategic issues — and had written a research paper titled, “Dogfight!: India’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Decision” after the IAF had submitted its evaluation report to the defence ministry — had this to say, once the shortlisting was known: “the deeper problem with the current two-step approach is... that it potentially permits a costly misallocation of defence resources that could over time subvert India’s larger national security. Simply put, a procurement process that does not include shadow prices in the first step of its evaluation is fundamentally flawed.... There is no such thing as ‘best’ technology in the abstract, especially where defence procurement is concerned. The pre-eminence of any war-fighting technology in the real world can be judged only against the constraints of price and, particularly in regards to India, against additional variables of consequence... what economists call, ‘constrained maximization’.” These are sound words.

Recognizing that aeronautics is one of the most significant technological influences of modern times, empowering the nation with strength for international partnership and economic development, The Aeronautical Society of India had submitted, in 2004, a proposal for an overarching national aeronautics policy, along with a supporting organization, with a view to according national aeronautics the status of a national mission. The mission was expected to encompass civil and military needs as well as those of research, development and the aeronautical industry. It would strive to bring Indian aeronautics on to the international stage as an equal partner, rather than as a perennial buyer. If there is one lesson that emerges from the MMRCA process, it is that this dormant proposal needs a long, hard look.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Sep 2011 17:19

On the issue of the MMRCA tender for which the Eurofighter Typhoon, built by four nations, including Germany, has been short-listed he avoided a direct response saying, "It has been kept confidential and kept in the right channels. I will refrain from making any public announcements," he said.

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general ... itted.html

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Sep 2011 07:45

arthuro wrote:Fantastic new rafale video display at RIAT with cockpit view in HD.
A good advice : watch it in HD and full screen, the quality and feeling is excellent. Enjoy !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKfeSYFZSsM

thanks Arthuro..exquisite maneuverability ! turns on a dime and it seems like it hardly breaks into a sweat, thrust wise.

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Sep 2011 10:19

Ha ha note the rear view mirrors akin to Russian AC.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 14 Sep 2011 12:08

Japan Proceeding with F-X Competition
Aviation International News

Eurofighter has stepped up its campaign, despite Japan’s long history of buying only U.S. defense equipment. Dassault cited this reason in its decision not to bid the Rafale to meet the F-X requirement. “We are ready to offer Japan’s defense industry considerable participation in the [Eurofighter] program, which will offer significant technology transfer opportunities, including the source code,” said Chris Boardman, managing director military air and information, BAE Systems.

Have they offered source codes to India?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 14 Sep 2011 12:15

SUPPORTING THE EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON MISSION CHALLENGES

The Eurofighter Typhoon is regarded as the most advanced multi-role/swing role combat aircraft on the world market. Eurofighter is currently Europe’s biggest programme in military aviation. The leading-edge combat aircraft impresses its customers with innovative technologies which are a key feature of this fighter aircraft. Next generation encryption technology developed by Cassidian is fitted into the Eurofighter. Encryption is a critical cyber security technique to ensure mission data is securely exchanged between friendly forces.

Eurofighter Typhoon will be the first aircraft in the world to be equipped with next generation encryption technology developed by Cassidian with support from Raytheon Systems Ltd. The full electronic key management system will be delivered shortly for integration into the platform and will be a major step forward for the management of multi-crypto platforms, potentially reducing the key loading process from one hour to less than one minute on a daily basis.

http://www.defpro.com/news/details/2769 ... 5d57c90c88

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 15 Sep 2011 01:15

Again a new article about the rafale leading the Swiss competition versus the Typhoon and the gripen :

http://ing.dk/artikel/122131-fransk-kam ... -i-schweiz

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 15 Sep 2011 16:10

arthuro wrote:Again a new article about the rafale leading the Swiss competition versus the Typhoon and the gripen :

http://ing.dk/artikel/122131-fransk-kam ... -i-schweiz

I believe I need to point out that it was the Gripen C/D that was evaluated in the Swiss competition.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 15 Sep 2011 17:51

arthuro wrote:Again a new article about the rafale leading the Swiss competition versus the Typhoon and the gripen :

http://ing.dk/artikel/122131-fransk-kam ... -i-schweiz

The same article says the Eurofighter is the favourite in the Indian MMRCA race. Ahh... sweet irony.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 15 Sep 2011 20:39

More precision about rafale in switzerland :

Rafale, the favorite

avia news, sept 15

The National Council voted today the credit necessary to purchase 22 new fighter jets , which boosts the purchasing program! I propose here a little reminder of the three competitors and their offers! The information dates back a year and it is clear that each manufacturer will be able to update them, particularly in terms of technology offered and will have the opportunity to come back. However, the 2008 assessment remains valid and one can easily rely on it.

Reminder:

The process of bidding in two phases began in January 2008 with the first tender sent by Armasuisse to four aircraft manufacturers Boeing, Dassault, EADS and Saab. In April 2008, Boeing decided not to tender (unable to respond in matter of transfer of technology). Flight tests and ground the three remaining candidates began in July 2008.

The tests included a thirty flights with each candidate. For this purpose, each manufacturer offers a two-seaters in the desired Armasuisse configuration. These aircraft were flown by test pilots of Armasuisse and Air Force, in the presence of a test pilot from the manufacturer. The aircrafts have generally taken off from the Emmen airbase. The aircrafts have also landed on military airfields in Meiringen, Sion and Payerne. The test scenarios were identical for the three candidates with the aim to test these mode air-air, air-ground and "recce". The integration of infrastructure and the field of maintenance have been tested.

About the offsets process:

In the evaluation phase of the offers of competitors for the sale of fighter planes, each supplier must make concrete offers on offsets. These portfolios offsets are then transmitted to Swiss companies, supplemented by Armasuisse in safety requirements and acquisition policy.

In the decision phase, procurement contracts and contracts for offsets are prepared to analyze the value of different offers. This affects the overall assessment of the acquisition. The flow of direct and indirect offsets are fixed during this phase.

A program of offsets can generate over $ 2 billion of work for 2,500 people for many years. As for the Rafale, the offsets amounted to nearly 6 billion a, F 5.5 billion for Gripen E/F and nearly 8 billion for Eurofighter, so in the three cases a return well above the bill of the new fighter.

Evaluation results:

According to official results sent by Armasuisse, test results are as follows:
1 Rafale
2 Eurofighter
3 Gripen C / D (Gripen NG is proposed now, but could not participate in the evaluation).

The Rafale as favorite:

The industrial partnership:

The industrial consortium Rafale International - composed of Dassault Aviation, Snecma (Safra Group) and Thales, MBDA and its subcontractors are able to offer a Swiss industrial and scientific cooperation for the benefit of all its cantons. This offer affects the whole range of suppliers ie: the military with the Rafale, but also the civilian sector, which includes programs for Falcon business jets, the calendar type CFM56 engines and avionics for aircraft and helicopters. Some elements of the Rafale already occurred in Switzerland (glass cockpit, fuel tank and more recently additional elements of the radar Thales RBE2).

The offer provides the outsourcing of many structural components, final assembly and maintenance in Switzerland for the entire program Rafale as well as research and development. The manufacture of weapons (missiles MICA) is also proposed and the development of helmet-mounted sight GERFAUT are also concerned systems such as the system of self-protection spectrum and the second generation of OSF.

According to Dassault, the Rafale aircraft would be the best for our country, because a close collaboration with both military and industry are encouraged. In addition, the latest version (F3 +) tested in Switzerland responded to 95% in the specifications and offers the following possibilities:

-ability to flight mode "Supercruise."
-Short take-off.
-Range and capacity for prolonged flight long surveillance missions.
-Fast implementation including soldiers of the militia.
-Easy integration of the works already constructed.

Multisensor system proposed:

The proposed version of the Rafale for our country is the most recent available is the standard 04T with the wiring for the METEOR missile, the Damocles pod XF and the new architecture IDM. The unit will have:

-AESA radar Thales RBE-2AA.
-SPECTRA autopotection system.
-OSF (Front Sector optics) next generation.
-In connection 16 (Link16) next generation (MIDS).
-Data fusion system NCW (Net Centric Warfare).

Also, it is not excluded that a more powerful version of SNECMA M-88 will be available (to be confirmed in relation to the contract in the UAE).

The Eurofighter offer:
[...]
The Gripen offer:
[...]
Comments:

To date, the Rafale is the favorite not only because of its excellent test scores but also because of its industrial offer. The plane corresponds to the budget and offers excellent prospects for modernization. Eurofighter on its side improves technically, but suffers in terms of cost! It is indeed the most expensive to buy and its obviously exceed (according to list price) the Switzerland budget, its maintenance is also the most expensive! Gripen seemed well placed, but the version C / D tested is outdated and the "NG" is suffering delay in its development and may therefore be too late, moreover it seems the industrial offer lacks guarantees.

One should nevertheless expect updated offers, but it is true that Dassault Aviation could win the bid and offer to our country a new era in aviation cooperation!
To be continued ...

THE THREE CANDIDATES WILL MADE A DEMONSTRATION AT ZION MEETING THIS WEEKEND:
Eurofighter: Saturday, September 17th at 16:30 and Sunday 18 at 15:05.
The Dassault Rafale: Friday, September 16th at 14:35 and Saturday 17 to 15:00.
Gripen: Friday, September 16th at 16:45 and Sunday 18 at 13:30.

As for previous article yes it is inaccurate as far as the indian competition is concerned, not the swiss one.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 16 Sep 2011 05:44

arthuro wrote:a lot of text

The Gripen NG is not suffering from "delays", it's actually progressing right on schedule. And that the C/D is "outdated"? That is just wrong. It might not be as new, but using the term "outdated" is a bit over the top.

koti · Post by **koti** » 16 Sep 2011 10:00

I have read it that the location of fore plane closer to the air inlets in Rafale assists it during low velocity low altitude scenario when compared to EF. However the MKI's low velocity performance is assisted by the location if the inlets under the aircraft, by which the aircrafts' body helps in pushing the air vortex into the air inlets.

Now since EF also has a similar configuration, it must also enjoy similar low velocity advantages. But why is this point ignored while discussing EF's low velocity performance in comparison with Rafale?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 16 Sep 2011 21:20

^ My guess is that both the MKI and Rafale (to some degree) have lifting body design / LERX and this is what helps. The EF otoh, does not. Perhaps this is born out of the need for carrier ops on the Rafale. As we v.well know, most such a/c have a super low/slow performance - Su-30/33, MiG-29K, F-18, Rafale. Not surprisingly all of them have carrier duties.

But super high/super fast, and acceleration, the EF probly has most cards. Although the latest incarnations of the others are no slouchs either. This probably the reason why the mention of TVC keeps coming up in EF2K further development.

The F-16 is an interesting combo - has the lerx, but not as prominent as the Shornet, and the high wing sweep means it has superb performance high and fast as well. My guess, when it comes to STR at high alt and fast speeds, the best will be (not countin 5gen): EF, Rafale/Su-35, F-16A/b, MiG-29 (although the 35 might be ahead of the F-16), Shornet.

JMT (aero gurus probly have better explanatory powers at their disposal)

CM

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 19 Sep 2011 13:47

A truly unique shot.
http://www.consolegames.ro/forum/attach ... 11x518.jpg

This "maybe" a little touched, but spectacular nonetheless.

koti · Post by **koti** » 19 Sep 2011 14:40

@CM,
Noted.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 20 Sep 2011 18:21

Gaur wrote:A truly unique shot.
http://www.consolegames.ro/forum/attach ... 11x518.jpg

This "maybe" a little touched, but spectacular nonetheless.

Look at the canopy. That's a Gripen D. But great shot none the less...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Sep 2011 19:54

Question on Rafale's versions.. why have they not thought about relaxing their nose a little bit (size), so that it can accommodate more t/rs? or is it that those lerxie blended extended nose where they can put more t/r panels ?

Why have they tightened themselves on the airframe design?

They have also not thought about retractable refuelers.. another negative on the drag for fixed pods.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Sep 2011 23:30

SaiK wrote:Question on Rafale's versions.. why have they not thought about relaxing their nose a little bit (size), so that it can accommodate more t/rs? or is it that those lerxie blended extended nose where they can put more t/r panels ?

Why have they tightened themselves on the airframe design?

They have also not thought about retractable refuelers.. another negative on the drag for fixed pods.

My guess about the reason why the Rafale's radome diameter isn't increased is because it involves too much work to redesign such a part. It will require a lot of aerodynamic testing in CFD and wind tunnels, since any change in the Rafale's radome will likely interfere with the airflow to its intakes..this is possibly more prominent an issue with the Rafale than it is with fighters where the intakes are not so close to the radome and not seemingly taking in air that is directly being channeled by the radome itself (for e.g. the Gripen, Typhoon, LCA, MiG-29 or Su-30MKI). On the Rafale, changing the diameter of the radome will necessarily mean that in order to not create a negative angle on the inner side of the canard mount (or cheek as someone called it) it will need to be re-designed a bit as well. And, that will need to be done all the way upto the intake splitter.

All in all, IMO, a lot of work that will mean a widening of the Rafale's front profile by the same amount as the diameter is increased. And if you want to increase the size of the radar array then you need a wider diameter radome, a simple plug that extends the nose won't do.

Regarding fixed probe, it was simply to reduce maintenance costs- a retractable probe being a mechanical object with hydraulics requires more maintenance, and this was a trade-off that Dassault considered as being worth it, inspite of the slight increase in RCS.

manum · Post by **manum** » 21 Sep 2011 00:03

I think the answer to this question of nose cone and tight cockpit....lies in design and air frame of Yugoslav Air Force Novi Avion model design data, which I guess Rafale designers depended heavily upon...while trying to incorporate some of their own learnt ideas of adding and reducing mass in a cigar shape for best aerodynamics performance.

but I second that nose cone diameter increase will cause redesign of air intake and new set of testings to establish things...

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 22 Sep 2011 00:28

two new great rafale videos from Switzerland to watch in HD and full screen :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQBUDhNF ... r_embedded

http://www.vimeo.com/29220726

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 Sep 2011 02:59

manum wrote:I think the answer to this question of nose cone and tight cockpit....lies in design and air frame of Yugoslav Air Force Novi Avion model design data, which I guess Rafale designers depended heavily upon...while trying to incorporate some of their own learnt ideas of adding and reducing mass in a cigar shape for best aerodynamics performance.

but I second that nose cone diameter increase will cause redesign of air intake and new set of testings to establish things...

boss, you got it the other way around- the Novi Avion was nothing more than a scaled down Rafale with a single engine, that was being designed with the help of Dassault engineers..Yugoslav engineers didn't help in the Rafale's design, it was already up and flying in prototype form when the design concept of the Novi Avion was floated.

manum · Post by **manum** » 22 Sep 2011 10:16

Thanks for correction...

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 22 Sep 2011 15:59

IAF hopes to finalise combat aircraft deal by year-end
The Hindu

Hoping to finalise the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal by the year-end, Indian Air Force on Thursday said the commercial bids of two short-listed vendors in the MMRCA tender would be opened by middle of next month.

“We have a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council on October 7 where some of the issues are going to be discussed. Once those issued are cleared, hopefully by the middle of month, we should be in a position to open the bids,” Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne said in New Delhi.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 22 Sep 2011 20:02

Brazilian President Rousseff said that the preference of his country was to the French military aircraft Rafale, but he could not afford them yet.

Brazilian President Rousseff recalled in an interview she and French President Nicolas Sarkozy on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly in New York, that Brazil was at present unable to make the purchase of military aircraft.

During this interview, she reiterated that his country was "not able to commit to the purchase of war planes whatsoever." However, the Brazilian leader has confirmed that if the situation changes and that "if there should be choice, it would be in favor of the Rafale" fighter aircraft from Dassault Aviation, rather than for the F-18 Boeing. The French manufacturer has yet managed to sell its Rafale export. The French-Brazilian soap opera is not over ...

http://www.letelegramme.com/ig/generale ... 439443.php

other sources about the same news :

http://www.lepoint.fr/bourse/le-bresil- ... 351_81.php

http://lci.tf1.fr/filnews/economie/le-b ... 25592.html

http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualit ... afale.html

http://www.20minutes.fr/ledirect/792320 ... re-acheter

nash · Post by **nash** » 22 Sep 2011 22:03

shukla wrote:IAF hopes to finalise combat aircraft deal by year-end
The Hindu

Hoping to finalise the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal by the year-end, Indian Air Force on Thursday said the commercial bids of two short-listed vendors in the MMRCA tender would be opened by middle of next month.

“We have a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council on October 7 where some of the issues are going to be discussed. Once those issued are cleared, hopefully by the middle of month, we should be in a position to open the bids,” Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne said in New Delhi.

Is opening of commercial tender means winner will be decide on mid of next month..?

Also MMRCA don't have supercruise and FGFA have and if i remember correctly Tiffy have supercruise and Raffy don't have...

To a query on comparison between Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and MMRCA, he said, “These are two different kinds of aeroplanes. MMRCA does not have stealth features and super cruise capability while FGFA has all that.”

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Sep 2011 22:41

arthuro wrote:[Brazilian President Rousseff said that the preference of his country was to the French military aircraft Rafale, but he could not afford them yet.

Yes Mr President if affordability was not a factor USAF would have purchased 750 F-22.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 22 Sep 2011 23:14

nash wrote: Is opening of commercial tender means winner will be decide on mid of next month..?

No, when the commercial bids are opened, the 2 competing vendors will submit their prices or bids and depending on the lowest bid, the winner will be selected. It will take some more time, exactly how much I can't say, but various factors will be taken into consideration like offsets, life cycle and support costs etc, etc.

Also MMRCA don't have supercruise and FGFA have and if i remember correctly Tiffy have supercruise and Raffy don't have...

As per reports, the eurofighter can supercruise with maximum speed at 1.5 mach. (that is without after burners though I doubt the max speed). Supercruise for Dassault Rafale is debatable and I am not exactly sure.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 23 Sep 2011 02:01

Defence ministry panel to consider combat jet deal next month

If the government fails to decide on the winner by December, the commercial bids submitted by the EADS Cassidian and Dassault will expire and hence, a decision is required by then.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Sep 2011 03:15

shukla wrote:Defence ministry panel to consider combat jet deal next month

If the government fails to decide on the winner by December, the commercial bids submitted by the EADS Cassidian and Dassault will expire and hence, a decision is required by then.

Oh no.

FMS anyone?

MarcH · Post by **MarcH** » 23 Sep 2011 03:36

In one of the links posted by Arthuro it was stated that Rafale could demonstrate SC in Switzerland. But not specific with which loadout. Tiffy has a SC speed of M1,5 clean and M1,3 with a2a loadout (6 missiles + 3 droptanks).

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 23 Sep 2011 04:22

A 'strategic partner', France is now pitching for even more robust military ties with India. Big numbers are involved. After the Rs 23,562-crore Scorpene submarine construction programme and aRs 10,947-crore upgrade of 51 Mirage-2000 fighters in the Indian Air Force, France is now eyeing India's Rs 42,000-crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project to acquire top-notch fighters - American, Russian and Swedish jets have been ejected from this race. French Air Force chief General Jean-Paul Palomeros spoke with Rajat Pandit on expanding ties:

How does the Rafale match up with the Eurofighter Typhoon, the two finalists of the Indian MMRCA race?

Rafale demonstrated its full capability during the Libya operations. We had 90 to 95% serviceability as well as reduced maintenance costs of both Rafales and Mirages. During the first three days, French air force was the only air force flying over Libya. We were able to enforce the no-fly zone as well as strike Gaddafi's forces with precision and minimum collateral damage. Rafale's digital reconnaissance pods provided a lot of intelligence in real-time for the strikes.

I do not want to compare fighters but Rafale was designed as a multi-role platform from the very beginning. It has been a real success, as shown in Afghanistan, Libya and elsewhere. I must also stress Rafale is nuclear-capable. It has real growth potential. France will be more than happy to develop it with India. It is, of course, up to India to now select the best platform it needs.

http://m.timesofindia.com/home/opinion/ ... 082718.cms

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 23 Sep 2011 06:49

with Rupee falling against other currencies.. the actual cost of the acquisition might swell up big time..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Sep 2011 07:20

France should give India complete rights to replace or modify LRUs. Ef2Ks have already accepted that by providing profit sharing partnership.

Texafr · Post by **Texafr** » 23 Sep 2011 15:09

Viv S wrote: The same article says the Eurofighter is the favourite in the Indian MMRCA race. Ahh... sweet irony.

The journalist himself qualifies this particular information as rumors and doesn't give a source.

Besides, India is going through an intense anti-corruption campaign whereas it has been revealed that Eurofighter Typhoon is involved in a huge corruption scandal in Austria (15 Eurofighter). This is not really a favorable element.

Eurofighter 84 million bribes to politicians:
http://www.oe24.at/oesterreich/politik/ ... r/39159368

So flowed the 120 million Eurofighter:
http://www.oe24.at/oesterreich/politik/ ... n/39225208

Eurofighter lobbyists intercepted:
http://www.kleinezeitung.at/nachrichten ... sten.story

Austria: EADS Desperately Sought Eurofighter Deal:
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =AIR&s=TOP

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 23 Sep 2011 16:30

Austin wrote:
arthuro wrote:[Brazilian President Rousseff said that the preference of his country was to the French military aircraft Rafale, but he could not afford them yet.
Yes Mr President if affordability was not a factor USAF would have purchased 750 F-22.

Dilma Rousseff is a she

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 24 Sep 2011 01:55

On the Indian Air Force's MMRCA deal, for which Eurofighter Typhoon, built by four nations including Germany has been short-listed, he described India as an "anchor of stability" in the region and said that was why Germany was giving it the best technology it possesses.

Asked whether the ties between India and Germany would be affected if the Eurofighter does not get shortlisted, he said, "We don't take this hypothesis. We will work very very hard to show that our product is a very good product. So we are not talking about Plan B. We are concentrating on Plan A."

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Germany-s ... 49284.aspx

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 25 Sep 2011 06:59

JAPAN WILLING TO DISCUSS EUROFIGHTER OPTION

Japan is ''willing'' to start talks on the European multirole jetfighter the Eurofighter, after depending on the USA for decades for its imports of sophisticated weapons systems. This was suggested by Japan's new Defence Minister, Yasuo Ichikawa, who was appointed early this month. A decision on the acquisition of 42 military aircrafts with a total value of more than six billion USD is expected by the end of December.

The Minister explained in an interview with the Financial Times that Japan's alliance with the United States is not the "guideline'' in the choice between the Eurofighter Typhoon and its American rivals, the Boeing FA-18 Super Hornet and the Lockheed F35 Joint Strike Fighter. Tokyo has postponed the decision for several years but seems now ready to choose. Its military alliance with Washington may no longer be crucial, particularly after the USA decided not to allow Japan to buy the F22 Lockheed, Japan's preferred option. The Japanese Minister has underlined that the choice will be based on technical criteria, in the interest of the nation. ''If they don't sell us the F22 and the F35 is not ready,'' it may take several years to complete, ''there are other aircrafts available that are good enough,'' said Ichikawa. A choice for the Eurofighter would have a serious political impact on ties between Japan and the USA, and would be welcomed in Europe. The Eurofighter is made by a consortium of companies: Eads (France-Germany), Bae Systems (UK) and Alenia Aeronautica of the Finmeccanica group (Italy). The Eurofighter was selected in April, together with the French Rafale, by India. India wants to buy 126 fighter planes and its choice is a serious blow for the U.S. defence industry after its pressing lobby.

US pissing off Japan by turning down requests for F-22 sales might just work out for EF..

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 25 Sep 2011 07:33

If IAF decides to buy EF or Rafaels which version it may opt for ?

as the delays continues both fighters were upgraded and new versions were rolled out and since IAF already submitted its requirements and both consortium have quoted price for the same, and by the time IAF signs they might have rolled out from Mk1 to Mk2 and we if negotiate for Mk1 then that will be of no use. As we will have to pay today's price for yesterdays technology

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 25 Sep 2011 19:48

Hello back all.

I would just like to point out to kmc_chacko that
there is no such thing as a Rafale version!

The standards of the Raffy are successsive iterations.
India could not buy a Rafale F2 if it wanted to.
The Rafale standards are upgrades in productions as
all new rafales are of the latest type and all previous
planes are then brought up to that level thanks to the
high modularity of its design.
Just to give you an idea, the old Aéronavale F1.1 ( M2
to M11 ) have waited in storage for a few years and now
back at Dassault on production line, stripped almost to
their cells and refurbished over the next 3 years to present
day standard.

So that the IAF will get the same Rafales as the French AdlA.
Of course, as discussed on a European forum, this would not
include ASMP-A nuclear missiles for example. But if the weapon
itself is not included in the deal, all Rafales can be equiped with
the proper electronic casings ( a one and a half hour job ).

Since there is no major reason to deny our Indian friends the
Vesta and ANL tehnologies that render such a use possible, it
would only remain for India to develop a nuclear missile of the
proper size to enable this capacity which the upcoming nuclear
version of the Brahmos shows to be feasible.

Good day all, Tay.