Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

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Dhiman
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Dhiman »

Marten wrote: So can Gold be transferred into other assets, at will! Not sure what your point is here.
I am not sure what I am trying to answer here, but pretty much the only points I am making is that: 1) gold is non-productive asset, and 2) gold is not wealth, it is an effective mechanism for exchanging wealth over time and geographical space. Rest everything that I say or can say is pretty much derived from those two points.
When gold hits a certain price point (e.g. $10k/oz), people in India will exchange it for assets by the millions
Has that ever happened in the history of India? (i.e people going out and exchanging gold for assets by the millions). As far as I know it hasn't, so not sure on what basis one can expect it to happen in future.

I can certainly understand people who have small reserves of gold will feel financially comfortable and spend more of their earnings, but hording gold is not "differed consumption" it is more of a mechanism for reducing both the consumption and producing power of the population.

In any case, if people start exchanging gold for assets by the millions, it will lead to extremely high inflation, i.e one would have to pay more and more gold for less and less assets.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Arjun »

India is Going in the Wrong Direction: Jim Walker
The famed economist tells Firstpost the Indian government is overspending on entitlement programmes, not on economic growth
Arjun
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Arjun »

The UPA continuing on its jihad to bring down the Indian economy......

Are NDA's pension reforms about to be reversed?
Neshant
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Neshant »

Dhiman wrote:I am not sure what I am trying to answer here, but pretty much the only points I am making is that: 1) gold is non-productive asset,
To claim that spending savings is productive and not spending savings is not productive makes no sense.

People are storing away & protecting their surplus for a time when they feel it is worth exchanging it for other assets. If they don't want to exchange it now, its because they don't feel they are getting value for their savings. What has that got to do with productive or non-productive?

Going on a spending spree by itself says nothing about whether the money is being spent productively or non-productively. A lot of the "productive" spending that went into the real estate bubble has been destroyed and plunged countries into bankruptcy. If anything, that has destroyed a lot of productive industries & people in those countries who had nothing to do with the foolish speculation & spending.
2) gold is not wealth, it is an effective mechanism for exchanging wealth over time
If you can exchange something for wealth, it is wealth.
Has that ever happened in the history of India? (i.e people going out and exchanging gold for assets by the millions).
Million already do exchange gold for other assets every year in India. But it will really flow out of their hands by the hundreds of tons when they get to exchange those savings for something vastly more substantial. That you don't see this now is only because the psychological price point for gold has not been hit. There is however a price for everything. $10K/oz? $50k/oz? $100k/oz? You bet it will start flowing.
In any case, if people start exchanging gold for assets by the millions, it will lead to extremely high inflation, i.e one would have to pay more and more gold for less and less assets.
..which is a good thing for people who put their savings in gold as they will pay less & less for other assets. Inflation is a measure of the increasing worthlessness of paper money. Ultimately it is the market that should decide what something is worth, not some paper printing & micro-managing banking fools at the top - who in recent times have led entire economies off the cliff destoying both productive & non-productive alike.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by sumishi »

Neshant, is weakening of the rupee against the dollar an indication of devaluation of rupee to approximate parity with devaluing dollar? Shouldn't rupee be strengthening actually, considering the mess the West is in? :-?
Singha
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Singha »

upa is hoping more handouts wukl buy it 2014 election. a new rule says 20% of govt purchases must be from dalit run business. soon i expect similar quotas for muslims, christians, sikhs, jains wherever the upa hopes to fracture opposition votes.
meantime economic growth will be choked down to 5% from whole tail effects will take another decade to recover. this is what happens when courtiers and nac decide policy not the finance ministryi
gakakkad
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by gakakkad »

UPA succeeding in its Jihad against the Indian economy...Industrial production growth down to 3.3 % for July...alaaaaaah hu akbar...

http://www.livemint.com/2011/09/1211164 ... month.html


meanwhile marshallah a jeeehaaaaaard against Indian unity , economy and everything we cherish.......
alaaaaaaaaaaaaah hu akbar...

4% OF ALL gov't contracts awarder to delete run companies

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 953395.cms
gakakkad
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by gakakkad »

singha saar beat me by a minute...

all wise men thunk alike...
Dhiman
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Dhiman »

Neshant wrote: To claim that spending savings is productive and not spending savings is not productive makes no sense.
I agree with you, because that is not what I claimed in the first place :-) All I said was that if millions suddenly go out and start spending their gold, it will lead to massive inflation.

Besides that not much for me to add right now other than what I have already said in last few posts.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Theo_Fidel »

This is not a big deal. Affirmative action is run by several countries. TATA, Godrej, Unilever, etc will sit a couple of Dalit board members or spin off a Dalit run wholly owned subsidiary and make off with the loot as usual.

I was crying myself hoarse 6 months back that all these UPA policies are triggering inflation which in turn will require the growth rate to be collapsed and several no longer posting worthies called me a fool and much much worse. As long as the NREGA type programs run and pump in money without increasing supply inflation will keep showing up and growth will have to be sacrificed. This is Congress SOP. Does not bother them at all. To be honest at the ground level 80% of rural India is not invested in economic growth. They will not vote for it.

This is the essential problem the right wing type parties are ignoring. The vote base at the bottom wants social financial help. The right should have programs to market to them else you will be in a situation where the only ones trying to throw money at the poor is the Congress.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Vipul »

Black money: govt plans voluntary disclosure scheme soon.

A special voluntary disclosure scheme for bringing back black money stashed away in tax havens abroad may be in the offing.
The Central Board of Direct Taxes (CBDT) is understood to be "seriously considering" recommending to the government a scheme on the lines of the Voluntary Disclosure of Income Scheme (VDIS) announced in 1996 to tap funds lying abroad for productive use in India.

Sources said the issue gained momentum recently when captains of industry and business met Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee and impressed on him the need for encouraging the disclosure of unaccounted money kept in tax havens that could be used to fund infrastructure projects in the country.

A proposal for ushering in a similar scheme was proposed earlier by an expert group on black money to the government.

The thinking in the government comes in the midst of a raging debate over unearthing black money and illegal funds parked abroad.

The ministry is considering the formulation of a such a scheme against the backdrop of India receiving fresh information under Tax Information Exchange Treaties (TIEAs), DTAA and the OECD automatic exchange route.

According to sources, under the scheme in the making, the source of money will not have to be disclosed but criminal action would be taken if the assets or money stashed pertain to proceeds of crime.

Official sources said the committee on black money, headed by the CBDT chairman, was expected to discuss and decide on the proposal in its proposed meeting later this month.

Incidentally, an expert group on black money had earlier suggested that an offshore voluntary scheme might be considered by the government to collect tax on undisclosed bank accounts and assets held by resident Indians abroad.

Experts on the subject said that such a scheme was prevalent and had been implemented in many European countries, the US, UK, Germany, France, Greece, Italy and Portugal among others.

Sources said that now that the country's efforts to revive and implement the various tax treaties had started giving results, such a scheme could be operationalised as compared to the earlier practice where it was very difficult to obtain bank accounts and assets data of such a taxpayer.

The nitty-gritty of a such a scheme and the amount of penalty etc on the disclosure of such funds stashed abroad could be worked at a later stage, the sources said.

The CBDT through the Income Tax department has taken several measures in the recent past to update the article concerning exchange of information in existing DTAAs to specifically allow for exchange of banking information and information without domestic interest.

India has also decided to negotiate TIEAs with priority countries and jurisdictions.

In the last two years, India has concluded negotiation of 16 TIEAs, 18 new DTAAs and renegotiation of 21 existing DTAAs.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by devesh »

the notion that India is "hoarding" wealth in the form of Gold is untrue. it is Western propaganda to inflate our egos...or spin some other "policy proposal" to loot our wealth.

the article is extensive and rich in info....enjoy!

look at Anurag Sanghi's analysis of Gold in India:

http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2007/11/10 ... t-economy/
Quiet Progress
For the last 20 years, World Gold Council has shown India’s annual gold consumption fluctuating from 400 tons to 800 tons. Estimated Indian gold reserves at 25,000-30,000 are double of the next largest country – the USA with 14,000 tons. India has 20% of the world population and also 20% of the world’s above-the-ground gold.

Which is quite unlike China!

India and the World
For much of the last 2000 years of recorded history, India has been the largest buyer of gold. Roman historian, Pliny, lamented some 1800 years ago, how India, the sink of precious metals, was draining Rome of gold – an appellation that resonates even today.

In the Indian North West (modern Afghanistan), Greco-Bactrian coins were made (seemingly) from the “Roman gold coins, which poured into India.” To “manage” this drain of gold, Romans reduced the gold content in coins. Septimuis Severus, (193 AD-211) further debased the currency. Roman coins after Septimius Severus are rarely found in India leading to the belief that Indians just stopped accepting the debased coin – and Roman coins were melted to make payments in pure gold.

In mid 17th century, a Superior of the Capuchin Mission at Isfahan, friar Raphael du Mans wrote (in 1660), an authoritative paper, Estat de la Perse, which was used by the French Minister Jean Baptiste Colbert, to form the French East India company (1664) – and in modern times, as a source book for tobacco habits in medieval Iran. This Christian missionary in Iran, Raphael du Mans thought that India is “where all the money in the Universe is unloaded as if into an abyss.” Central Asian invaders, looking for slaves and gold, aimed at सोने कि चिडिया (loosely, the ‘golden goose’). Their partly successful raids, were deemed as invasions by colonial historians.

The Byzantine Empire, successor to the Assyrian-Achmaenid-Macedonian-Roman lineage, similarly found that their reserves of precious metals were ‘again, leaked away to India.’ A significant part of Indian royal treasuries, when these hoards “fell a prey to European invaders, it was found that the gold coins of the Byzantine emperors formed no small part of their treasures”

In 1748, Baron de Montesquieu, warned Europeans that …

"Every nation, that ever traded to the Indies, has constantly carried bullion, and brought merchandises in return. … commerce of the Romans to the Indies was very considerable … this commerce was carried on entirely with bullion … They want, therefore, nothing but our bullion, to serve as the medium of value, and for this they give us merchandises in return … that bullion was always carried to the Indies, and never any brought from thence. "

The Ottomans put restrictions of export gold to Iran, from where gold exports to India were made. Safavid Iran, in turn, put restrictions on gold exports from Iran to India. No help at all.

Even modern writers resent the fact that despite the “absence of indigenous sources of gold and silver” the “very favourable export-import balance” resulted in “inherent strenghth of the Indian economy”.

Further, it has been correctly observed that in “our period the subcontinent drew vast amounts of gold and silver, exceeding previous periods and exceeding all other parts of the contemporary world so far.”

A French visitor to India Francois Bernier enviously wrote how

"It should not escape notice that gold and silver, after circulating in every other quarter of the globe, come at length to be absorbed in Hindostan. (from Travels in the Mogul Empire By François Bernier, Irving Brock)"

Another current day writer describes how

“in exchange for textiles, spices and other Indian agricultural and industrial products, merchants from across Europe and Asia flooded India’s bazaar’s with dinars, tangas, ducats, guilders, reals, francs, rixdollars (reichthalers) and countless other varieties of coins, all of which were minted into rupees. (from The Indian diaspora in Central Asia and its trade, 1550-1900 By Scott Cameron Levi)"

Moving away from Central Asia, the general European economy, was simple -

"Europe had a net balance in the difference between the arrivals of precious metals (mostly from the New World after the sixteenth century) and export of the same (mostly to the Far East for the purchase of luxury commodities).(from Economic systems and state finance By Richard Bonney, European Science Foundation)"

It was not surprising to find that Ian Fleming, pitted Western fiction’s best secret agent, James Bond against Auric Goldfinger – who was smuggling gold out of a declining, post-war Britain to India.

And Indian exports were not only textiles, spices and indigo. Students came from all over the world – and paid large sums of money to Indian teachers for education!

The Pre-WW2 Currency Crisis
During various collapses of temporary gold standards in history, Indian gold reserves (usually unwillingly) stabilised world economies. In recent history, Indian gold reserves went out to stabilise the American currency during the Great Depression and the German currency during the post-Wiemar drift. Indian silver reserves broke the Hunt Brothers’ back and their silver gambit in the 1980′s.

After (colonial) India’s accession to the world gold standard in 1898, India, especially during WWI, rapidly built up a export surplus. British reserves of gold started drying up – in spite of gold export restrictions to India by the USA, Britain and much of the Western world. There was hysteria in popular press and politicians on the subject of India and its appetite for gold.

Crash in silver prices
Between 1800-1900, new mines and increased silver production saw a crash in silver prices. Abundant silver discoveries and mining had flooded the world with silver, depressing prices. Germany’s move to the gold standard in 1873, released even more silver in the world markets. The Opium trade further released vast amounts of silver from China – which was opened to ‘free trade’, giving rise to some of the biggest Western fortunes (of the Roosevelts, for instance).

With increased silver supplies, US silver coinage was depreciating.

On the other side, Britain had a large debt due to WWI – principally to the US of A and India. Groaning under the weight of WWI debt, Britain took the easy way out to assuage the impatient creditor – US of A. Britain and America stuck a deal at the cost of the Indian subjects of the British Raj. They paid the US in gold – sourced from South Africa, Ghana, Australia and Canada – and instead bought silver from the US at inflated prices, to settle Indian debts.

Britain decided to settle Indian debts with silver. Large US silver reserves were released when the US passed the Pittman Act which mandated silver sales at more than a dollar per ounce – double the 50c per ounce prevailing price of silver. The resulting payment crisis was averted, and it was decided to pay India in silver released by the Pittman Act. Silver prices which were ruling at o.50p an ounce in the London market, was sold to the Indian colonial Government for more than US$1.0 under the Pittman Act.

Gold prices were deflated. Interest rates in India were increased. Restrictions on gold (and even silver) imports on were placed and gold demand in India was ‘normalized’. Subsequently, even payments in silver became difficult. India then started getting paid by Bank Of England credit notes.

So, finally, it was the Indian native, who was forced to finance the WWI!

But of course, the Indian native was ungrateful to the Congress of the US of A who, “by passing the Pittman Act, … gave India an opportunity to obtain silver” (from Our silver saved India from crisis - New York Times, Published, August 23, 1918; ellipsis mine).

Modern restrictions on gold exports to India
Between WWI end and the start of the WWII, it was clear that India would not stay a colony for long. Indian independence would happen sooner than later. Between 1920-40, in a series of measures, policy decisions were taken, which made Indian interests subsidiary and inferior to Western interests. Central bankers from the USA, Britain, France and Germany had many meetings to “coordinate monetary policy.” The agenda – gold flow management between themselves and an obvious understanding - don’t let Indians get the gold.

Indians were paid, with inflated and abundant silver stock, instead of gold. This silver was the same silver released by the Pittman Act – a “buffer to protect Western gold reserves against the Indian drain …” Of course, later the British Raj decided to settle Indian debts with promissory notes – and not even silver. It was this Indian ‘sacrifice’ which enabled the recovery of the West.

They (Hjalmar Schacht, Governor, Reichsbank, Charles Rist, Deputy Governor, Banque de France, Benjamin Strong, USA Federal Reserve, Montagu Norman, Bank Of England) agreed that Indian demand for gold had a “…deflationary effect on global liquidity,” therefore Indian demand for gold had to be regulated.”

in the spring of 1926, when Norman induced Strong to support him in fiercely opposing a plan of Sir Basil Blackett’s to establish a full gold-coin standard in India. Strong went to the length of traveling to England to testify against the measure, and was backed up by Andrew Mellon and aided by economists Professor Oliver M.W. Sprague of Harvard, Jacob Hollander of Johns Hopkins, and W. Randolph Burgess and Robert Warren of the New York Reserve Bank. The American experts warned that the ensuing gold drain to India would cause deflation in other countries (i.e., reveal their existing over-inflation) (from America’s Great Depression By Murray N. Rothbard, Chapter 5, The Development of the Inflation; Ludwig von Mises Institute)

The New York Times wrote how “it was most important for the Allies to agree on a policy that would prevent the Huns from capturing the very valuable raw materials which can be obtained in India, and sometimes in India alone.” Further, The New York Times went on and stated “how without Indian products there would be greater difficulty in winning the war.”

So, as the West traded, profited and consumed Indian production and goods, when it came to paying for the goods, they caviled – and ‘regulated’ Indian demand for gold – and even silver!!

How millions of Indians died
Like much of Western history, the British Colonial administration (Lord Willingdon, Montagu Norman, Neville Chamberlain, Winston Churchill, the Chancellor of the Exchequer) executed a scorched earth policy in India. (After all what is brown life worth?)

They implemented a series of economic and administrative measures, (significantly, under Churchill’s baleful influence) that killed millions in the Bengal Famine, would impoverish India – and sustain the empire. The result – Bengal Famine of 1943 which killed 40 lakh Indians. The Bengal Famine of 1943, of course had may other layers to it – but nett, nett, as Gideon Polya has pointed out, Australian sheep have lower mortality rates.

The Bengal-Burma link of the ages was broken. After being demonized, the Chettiar money lenders were thrown out of Burma, the role of Chettiars (for e.g. in Singapore) was wiped clean. From being a granary of Asia, Burma started declining – and there was no rice for exports. Result – The Bengal Famine of 1943. Tally – 40-50 lakh deaths.

After the fall of Singapore, and the rapid Japanese advance, with Subhash Chandra Bose in the vicinity, a revolt by Bengal would have had catastrophic effect on the colonial administration. Howard Fast, in his novel ‘The Pledge’ believes that the Bengal Famine was a deliberate creation – possibly to weaken the local population and deter support for Subhash Chandra Bose.

Crisis in Britain
Britain in the meantime, returned to the gold standard under Montagu Norman and Winston Churchill (then the Chancellor of the Exchequer) – with the famous prediction by Keynes that this action would result in a world-wide recession – of which, much came to pass. Churchill confessed “I’m lost and reduced to groping” but went along with Montagu Norman, united by their racism.

On October 27th, 1931, the Ramsey Macdonald led “National” Government (Conservatives and Liberals coalition, fearful of the rising Labour Party) in Britain won a huge majority of 554 MPs of 615. The economic crisis of September (misnamed as the Indian Currency Crisis), ensuing Depression era problems in the US, the Weimar Republic problems – and other issues pushed this ‘National’ government to ram through a series of measures (page 130-131) that depressed silver and gold prices and raised interest rates in India.

Done over the protests by Gandhiji, trade bodies and merchants and threats of resignation by the Viceroy and his Executive Council, the resulting ‘money famine’ (page 155) had the Lord Willingdon ecstatically say ‘Indians are disgorging gold.’ Indians have a different reason to revile Neville Chamberlain, who with great satisfaction said “…The astonishing gold mine that we have discovered in India’s hordes has put us in clover …” after impoverishment of the Indian serf.

The Nixon Chop
On August 15th, 1971, President Nixon after a two-day huddle with 15 advisers at Camp David, delivered the Nixon Chop to the world.

The Nixon chop (my name for this event), one month after his China breakthrough, cut the convertibility peg of US$35 to gold as US gold reserves were severely depleted. The French had been regularly redeeming gold for their dollar earnings – and for this ‘perfidy’ the US had not forgiven France. This was much like the pre-WWII French methodology of devaluation, new peg, old debt for new gold routine which got the US hackles up. Many decades have passed since these redemptions by France, and the new French President, Sarkozy believes it is now possible to renew US-French relations again.

On the opposite side of the world, a beleaguered Indian Prime Minister was celebrating 24 years of Independence with a “ship-to-mouth” economy, dependent on PL-480 grain. Private gold reserves in the Indian economy after nearly 25 years of post-colonial rule, were steadily rising. Over the next 10 years, the Western world (and most of the rest) blamed OPEC for post-1971 inflation, gold scaled US$800 an ounce; the Hunt Brothers launched their bid to corner the silver market; stagflation made an entry and Soviet power grew. Nixon Chop, itself the result of many years of gold reserves erosion, was one in many steps that brought the US$ to its knees – only to be saved by the Oil-dollar tango.

The Greatest Crime Wave … Ever?
From the 1960-1990, the Big Issue for people across large parts of the world was Big Crime. The 1960-1990 peak in organized crime, globally, is interesting due to the synchronized time frames – across USA, Europe and India.

In India, the rise of the underworld was delayed by a decade – as was its decline. India’s underworld, centred in Mumbai, at its peak, intruded into trade unions, films and entertainment, gambling, real estate, extortion and smuggling. The specter of Dawood Ibrahim haunts India-Pakistan Governmental relations – even today.

Roosevelt had earlier in 1933, during his New Deal years, nationalized all American gold. This restriction was finally eased only on December 31st, 1974, with Executive Order 11825 by Gerald Ford. It was Roosevelt’s gold nationalization which allowed the US to wage WWII and create the Bretton Woods system.

From 1939, (the start of WWII), gold imports into India, the world’s largest market and also the largest private reserve of gold, were controlled or banned. Not only the largest, but Indian reserves of gold, are also the only significant reserve in the world without a history of war, genocide, slavery or loot, (unlike US, UK, Canada, Australia) or due to nature’s bounty (unlike South Africa, China, Peru, Ghana, etc.).

The first effect of restrictions on gold imports in India was on prices. Indian gold prices, on an average, were 30%-40% higher than international prices. The other thing that happened was that gold imports went underground. Gold imports (illegal), called smuggling, spawned the biggest criminals that India has seen.

The common threads in this were, of course, America, drugs, underworld, war, corruption, warlords – but what made all this possible was Indian appetite for gold.

All this was made possible by the Indian hawala system of money exchange. Hawala made money transfers safe, instantaneous, at a low-cost. Traditional Indian ships from a thousand ports in Goa, Maharashtra and Gujarat sailed with this contraband and brought back gold.

The countries comprising these Golden Triangle /Crescent are India’s neighbours. The Indian underworld transported drugs through India. These drug shipments originated, were acquired, grown and traded from the Golden Crescent and the Golden Triangle.

The US eliminated gold ownership restrictions in 1975. India followed. In 1992, India started its first hesitant steps towards legalizing gold imports. By 1995, these import control laws had been diluted to near non-existence. With the dilution of restrictions on gold imports came the abatement in the biggest crime wave in modern history.

Today, the abatement in organized crime is ascribed to vigourous efforts by the police and legal systems. The earlier lack of success is conveniently forgotten. Many ‘encounter’ specialists claimed credit for the reduction in the power of the India’s underworld. Much like the fading away of the mafia in the US and Italy, in India too, after the gold trade was legalized, the mafia’s source of power, liquidity, earnings, profit were taken away. With it came the underworld’s loss of power and influence. And that coincided with the reduction and control of organized crime from the US and Europe and India. And an end to the greatest crime wave in the modern history.


So, why this desperate poverty
With global monetary system in a flux and the decline of the dollar (especially after the Plaza Accord), the perceived utility of gold and the price outlook of gold has been positive. After the Nixon chop, at an estimated 15,000-18,000 tons, India was in a position to create instruments, obtain leverage and create wealth from the world’s largest gold reserves.

It is the failure of the Indian economic minds – that they have not found any instruments and means. Some 35 years after the Nixon Chop, and with Indian gold reserves approaching 30,000 tons mark. Some other countries tried feebly, and failed. Japan and ASEAN tried setting up the Asian Monetary Fund – after 1997, currency crisis – and were arm twisted by the US to drop the idea.

Is the US likely to give up the central role?
Unlikely! Let me correct myself! Pretty damn unlikely!!

Will the Western world share its pre-eminence with Japan, China and India. Bet your bottom yuan, yen, rupee or gold – they wont. Especially since the Anglo Saxon Bloc control nearly 80% of world gold production.

What are they likely to do! Some of the older measures by which gold was transferred from the old (and the new) world to Western world are no longer possible.

But if any central bank (or monetary authority) were to: -

Mask purchases
Build up gold positions
Take physical possession of gold (Avoid Czech Gold, Montagu Norman & BIS Scam)
Look at a positive outcome to a war scenario
then that country will be able to bolster their gold reserves position by: -

About 10,000-15,000 tons
Limit the cost of purchase
Make it economically unviable for anyone else to match them
The only country that can (currently) match these criteria is the USA – and China.

The US GATA Committee has been running a low profile campaign on gold price manipulation. This attempt, if successful, at increasing gold prices will possibly make it difficult for Indians to buy gold in larger quantities. The Indian Central Bank, preoccupied with a developmental agenda, is in no position to take up this challenge.

From an Indian standpoint
While the silver lining is private reserves, we have a blinkered RBI & GOI response. India has one of the lowest monetary reserves of gold in the world. Against a global average of 10.5% RBI holds only 3.4% of its reserves as gold. The EU holds 40% of its reserves in gold and USA – 70%.

And while the RBI and GOI gently sleep, the Chinese have grown their gold purchases. China has become world’s 3rd largest consumer of gold – up from a 100 tons to 350 tons. Shanghai Gold Exchange has made it easier for individuals to invest in gold by reducing the transaction size from 1 kg to 100 gm.

Importantly: -

Is India in a position to militarily defend these reserves
Does the GOI and the RBI have any strategic intent vis-a-vis gold
Making the job easier for the GOI and the RBI are Indian economic habits of the centuries that have allowed this build up of gold reserves. India stands at a historical cross-road. Are Indian economic and political minds at work to exploit this window of opportunity. Or will it be a wasted chance.


Gold and War
Alexander’s campaign started with the gold reserves that his father had built from the mining operations at Mount Pangeus. The Macedonians were the first in the Hellenistic world to keep standing army – a luxury and a big expense, in Greece, at that time. The Roman empire was similarly funded by gold mining and loot. Julius Caesar’s European conquests were funded by Gaellic loot. The Punic Wars with Carthage were fought over Spanish Gold. Roman conquest and love affair with Egypt was motivated by grain and Nubian gold.

Carolus Magnus, Karel de Grote, Karl der Grosse, Carlomagno, Charles the Great – or more commonly known as Charlemagne (ruled between 768-814) waged war for 30 years, spread over more than 50 battles. Charlemagne’s conquests were funded by gold and silver from the Saxony mines, the Haartz mountains, etc. During Charlemagne’s rule, gold and silver mines (S-Chemnitz, Kremnitz etc.), were also re-opened for mining. His victory over Avars, (modern Hungary) gave him treasures which needed 15 carts, pulled by grey steppe oxen for transport.

The British loot from Canada, Australia, South Africa – and India, gave the world, numerous wars and brought humanity “under the heel by means that will not bear scrutiny.” It is these very same Gold reserves which gave birth to the Bretton Woods – and we know what happened after that! Roosevelt gave a New Deal to the Americans. He took away all their gold. WWII followed soon after.

This short look at Western history makes the linkage plain. The main cause is the pattern of gold ownership by Governments and war becomes a fait accompli.

What Should We Do With Gold
Just sell it to people. From all the countries of the world.

The world financial organization should limit control of global gold output by any mining organization to 10% or a single mine – which ever is lower. Gold holding should be widely dispersed, as widely as possible, among individuals – like the Indian gold possession model. No national government, in the new financial architecture should be allowed to have more than 250 tons of gold – to progressively reduce to 50 tons.

What this will do, is disperse gold holdings among the citizens of the world – and dilute the ability of nations to wage war! National Governments (like the US), have used gold looted from their own citizens (and others) to deprive other peoples of the world of gold – and wage war.

What we should not do?

Good Ole’ Gold Standard
In the last few decades between the Nixon Chop and the Bush Whack, the Western academic world, has floated another ‘hot air’ balloon. It is the revival of the ‘pure,’ Gold Standard. The story goes that in the ‘olden’ days of 19th century, in the golden age of Western civilization, there once reigned the Gold Standard.

The simplistic logic of this theory is that the world should ‘go back’ to the Gold Standard - or as some put it, improve the ‘corrupted Gold Standard’ of the 19th century, and then everything will be fine. All currencies of the World, should be indexed to gold, currency can be redeemed against gold – and gold reserves equal to currency should be kept as reserves. This will kill inflation, stop war, make politicians honest, make tax payers honest, citizens hard-working and business efficient.

In short a magic bullet.

The last time, we saw this, it was called the Bretton Woods. The US and the Anglo-Saxon Bloc came together and said we will administer the new world currency system. The world agreed – once again. And we know what happened.

Two years ago …
This post had estimated that the Chinese could possibly (and they have) increase their monetary gold reserves. On April 24th, 2009, Bloomberg reported that China had increased

its (gold) reserves by 454 tons to 1,054 tons through domestic purchases and refining scrap metal, Hu Xiaolian, head of the State Administration of Foreign Exchange, said in an interview with the Xinhua News Agency today. China, the world’s biggest gold producer, has increased its holdings before, Hu said in the interview carried on the administration Web Site. They rose from 394 tons to 500 tons in 2001 and to 600 tons in 2003. The U.S. has the world’s biggest gold holdings at 8,134 tons, followed by Germany with 3,413 tons, World Gold Council data show. France has 2,487 tons and Italy 2,452 tons, while the IMF has 3,217 tons, according to the council.

Another report, from Market Watch, a WSJ web publication added,

"The increase makes China the world’s fifth-largest holder of gold, just ahead of Switzerland, and among the six nations plus the International Monetary Fund that have reserves of more than 1,000 metric tons. Although Hu did not elaborate on where China had sourced the additional bullion, her comments were interpreted as meaning they came from domestic sources and may included refining of scrap metal. Traders also say the gold was accumulated systematically over a number of years. Last year China ranked as the world’s largest gold producer with 12.2% of world output, equivalent to 288 metric tons. The U.S. ranked second with a 9.9% share, or 234 metric tons."

What are the future plans of the Chinese? A report quotes an analyst

"China should increase its gold reserve from 600 tons to about 2,500 tons in a short term and to 3,000 tons in a long term to cope with the versatile exchange rate risks," said Teng Tai, an economist of China Galaxy Securities Company.

Of course, this really does not mean much – except that it may keep gold prices on boil. Whether a currency is backed by a 5% or a 10% gold reserve may not mean much, in this era of rampant use of (not just by the US of A) “a technology, called a printing press” as an economic tool. For long term economic stability, gold needs to be in the hands of individuals – and not Governments.

Gold is the great equalizer. the fact that India has 20% world population and owns 20% of "available" Gold should tell us that we own no more more that what is our share. and it is a result of our hard work.

I completely disagree with Dhiman's assessment that there should new taxes on Gold ownership. that is asuric thinking following the thought process of West....Indians don't need to be penalized by their own govt for owning Gold....
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Theo_Fidel »

WRT to gold lets keep in mind that we have been the gold sink for Millenia yet only 20% of the worlds gold is in India.

A major reason for this is that gold is not a permanent asset. It incredibly has a tendency to vanish into thin air. Recently my Mom had her 16 sovereign gold necklace she has worn for 30 years redone. When she went to the goldsmith incredibly it only weighed 14.7 Sovereigns. She was sure it was 16 Sovereigns as she had weighed it on a bank scale 30 years ago. The Goldsmith said this was very normal for used jewellery, as rubbing on skin/clothes causes a lot of gold to gradually wear away. Also in India we use the very very soft 22K Gold variety which contributes to the problem.

Not only that once she melted and recast she only got about 14.4 Sovereigns back as there is some losses in the melting and recasting process.

So just like that 10 Grams were lost from wear & tear and 3 grams were lost from recasting. Spread over hundreds of years her necklace will dwindle into nothing.

And we wonder why we are poor. All a conspiracy only. :P
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 15 Sep 2011 00:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by RamaY »

^ What happens to non-indian gold?
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by vishvak »

RamaY wrote:^ What happens to non-indian gold?
I can suggest a few things worth 2 naya paisa.

Ban gold imports from unfriendly countries. That will take care of world gold prices. Gold is not valued unless most of it could be sold back to Indians. So leverage it and see to it that more and more gold comes to India.

Do not EVER take off deities' gold. Gold is, as Dhiman said, 'unproductive' and if it comes to the economy it will mean not much. On the other hand if gold is offered to deities in temples, it would mean that wealthy are spending their wealth to buy gold. Encourage this and encourage the wealthy to buy gold from within Desh onlee, not foren.

If Arabs can have Islamic oil, Europe & America can have Christian technology, why can't we have Dharmic gold rightfully? Others may find gold not too productive, but Hindus have symbolic value for Gold.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by kmkraoind »

Amnesty scheme on cards for black money - TOI
Industry leaders, sources said, had argued that such money lying idle could be brought back to the country and invested in infrastructure sector where the government requires funding to the tune of $1 trillion over the next plan period. The government has, so far, received only $100 million through corporate infrastructure bonds from FIIs.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Abhijeet »

Theo_Fidel wrote:This is not a big deal. Affirmative action is run by several countries. TATA, Godrej, Unilever, etc will sit a couple of Dalit board members or spin off a Dalit run wholly owned subsidiary and make off with the loot as usual.
The burden of compliance with absurd government regulations always falls on small companies that don't have the ability to perform elaborate sleights of hand like the Tatas and the Godrejs. So I would consider this a big deal -- just one more thing that makes India one of the worst places in the world to start a business, in addition to all the well known whines like unreliable electricity, bad roads etc.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by niran »

Theo_Fidel wrote: Not only that once she melted and recast she only got about 14.4 Sovereigns back as there is some losses in the melting and recasting process.

So just like that 10 Grams were lost from wear & tear and 3 grams were lost from recasting. Spread over hundreds of years her necklace will dwindle into nothing.

And we wonder why we are poor. All a conspiracy only. :P
have you considered "con job" Goldsmithery beginners guide have at least 100 ways to
cheat on the Weight, composition, etc.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Neshant »

Theo_Fidel wrote:WRT to gold lets keep in mind that we have been the gold sink for Millenia yet only 20% of the worlds gold is in India.
3 times in Indian history India has built up a huge stockpile of gold.

Twice it has been taken from India. Once by the invading muslims from arabia and once again by the British.

The present time is the third time in history wherein the Indian population has built up a vast stockpile of gold. This time however, India has the means of defending it.

A major reason for this is that gold is not a permanent asset. It incredibly has a tendency to vanish into thin air. Also in India we use the very very soft 22K Gold variety which contributes to the problem.


Total nonsense from start to end. As per my calculations, you mom got cheated to the tune of US $684 at the very least.

Gold is practically inert and does not react with anything. It can lie on the sea floor in corrosive salt water for hundreds of years and it will not rust. It does not just rub off nor vanish into thin air... unless you are in the presence of a con artist like the goldsmith your mom visited.

Secondly 22K is not soft, it is in fact the opposite of soft. The reason some coins are made as 22K is because they have other metals mixed in to make the coin harder. 24K gold coins are considered soft i.e. if dropped onto a hard surface, they will dent and they can scratch. Needless to say, 22K coins do not dent nor scratch easily. Common 22K coins include American Eagles & South African Kuggerands. Common 24K coins include Canadian Maple Leafs, American Buffalos, Austrian Philharmonics, Australian Kangaroos, Chinese Pandas and Mexican Gold Pesos. One advantage of 24K coins is that they are very difficult to fake if you know how to test them using weight, diameter, thickness, mass & specific gravity.

Next time, weigh the coins yourself or take a small digital scale with you to these con artist goldsmiths along with a pair of calipers. And do some research before going there. The best way to get cheated in a transaction is to be ignorant.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Pratyush »

Violence at Maruti's Manesar plant, 5 injured

Some thing similar took place in the HMSI plant in the same area in the 2006.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by gakakkad »



The burden of compliance with absurd government regulations always falls on small companies that don't have the ability to perform elaborate sleights of hand like the Tatas and the Godrejs. So I would consider this a big deal -- just one more thing that makes India one of the worst places in the world to start a business, in addition to all the well known whines like unreliable electricity, bad roads etc.
That factor is even more deterrent than infrastructure problem... Technically even TSP with non -existent infra and frequent power cuts is easier to do business in than India ...No wonder India is the toughest major economy in the world to do business in ...

meanwhile the results of Jihad on the economy continue to show...

services fall by 5.3 %

http://www.livemint.com/2011/09/1514402 ... 58-in.html
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Theo_Fidel »

niran wrote:have you considered "con job" Goldsmithery beginners guide have at least 100 ways to
cheat on the Weight, composition, etc.
Not this one! He is our family jeweler for 80 years or more. The real lesson is don't wear gold Jewellery continuously for 30 years. Get biscuits and put them in a vault.

I'm going to ignore Neshants rant. He obviously is not feeling well today.

Abhijeet,

For a long time we have tried to promote small business with pretty disastrous results. Even this Dalit proposal is to try and send some money to the small business at the cost of the big business. I fail to see your problem with it. If small business can't be bothered to jump through GOI hoops they don't deserve to get the money, No.

I would say the exact opposite is true in India. While the paperwork takes time there is absolutely no standards on who can do what. A grocery can become a car mechanic tomorrow. A farmer can and does become a Pharmacist tomorrow. There is absolutely no barriers on who can do what in India. Today every other building in India runs one small business or the other. That in itself should falsify your claim.

No could things better, absolutely. Are things bad by world standards, yes. What small businesses really need is 24/7 power, easy water connection, cheap land, simplified paperwork, open bid process, etc. Only the government does these things. The private sector does absolutely no open bidding and only works within their contacts, usually/always nepotistic.

In the bidding for the Nehru Solar Mission were 300 companies, vast majority small businesses. Anything from computer store to shoe factory was in the bidding. They did not have a problem with the paperwork!!
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Aditya_V »

Abhijeet wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:This is not a big deal. Affirmative action is run by several countries. TATA, Godrej, Unilever, etc will sit a couple of Dalit board members or spin off a Dalit run wholly owned subsidiary and make off with the loot as usual.
The burden of compliance with absurd government regulations always falls on small companies that don't have the ability to perform elaborate sleights of hand like the Tatas and the Godrejs. So I would consider this a big deal -- just one more thing that makes India one of the worst places in the world to start a business, in addition to all the well known whines like unreliable electricity, bad roads etc.
Trust me being a Finance Manager in an ethical but relatively small group I know what this about. There is endless Harassment from Customs and Excise Department on Service tax, Customs or Excise. Not clearing goods from Ports. Then there is IT on normal IT and TDS. Companies with far less compliance than us whom I have audited in a former job were much better since they were able to grease the right hands

Experienced people have said things have gone really bad in the last 3 years.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Singha »

there is open korruption in blr customs for personal effects of r2i nowadays. if they see high value goods will come up with a inflated price based on their own pricelist and demand it. then offer to accept a smaller amt = X but provide a bill for only X/2 pocketing the other X/2.

this was not the case (or atleast too common) a few yrs back.

in this kind of scenario, everyone from top to bottom gets a share based on some formula worked out in the reporting chain.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Rahul M »

theo saar, there is something called polishing which extracts a lot of metal from gold pieces to give it a bit of glitter. unscrupulous jewelers use it often. I suspect the last reduction of weight you mentioned is due to this.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by paramu »

Common technique used to polish gold jewellery is to dip into a liquid. If that liquid is aqua regia, that simply dissolves gold and, depending on how long it is dipped, makes it appear shining new. But part of it would have already vanished into the thin liquid.

The inert nature of gold is one of the main reasons why that was used as money for thousands of years.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by sumishi »

Theo_Fidel wrote:...
Not this one! He is our family jeweler for 80 years or more. The real lesson is don't wear gold Jewellery continuously for 30 years. Get biscuits and put them in a vault.
...
Sir ji, in my father's younger days when he used frequent a known goldsmith to get his mother's ornaments redone from time to time, there were two things that chatty goldsmith once told my father: (1) "You come to us for redoing the jewellery time and again, and after X number of times (don't remember the exact number), the original gold valuation effectively belongs to me" (2) "In this business of goldsmithry , we do not even spare our fathers."
My 2 disappearing-gold cents.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Abhijeet »

Theo_Fidel wrote:For a long time we have tried to promote small business with pretty disastrous results. Even this Dalit proposal is to try and send some money to the small business at the cost of the big business. I fail to see your problem with it. If small business can't be bothered to jump through GOI hoops they don't deserve to get the money, No.
The problem is that the laws are arbitrarily enforced. So people can do what they want, but when the government inspector comes knocking, they will have to pay a bribe to be allowed to continue. It's this confusion about what exactly is allowed that the government derives its extortionary power from.

I don't get how the Dalit proposal sends money to small businesses. As you yourself said, the Tatas can hire a token Dalit member to fulfil this criterion. Your average small business cannot.

There are so many small businesses in India because of the lack of organized labor options, not because India is some kind of haven for small businesses.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Aditya_V »

Indian economy is going to go into major tailspin here.

RBI raises interest rates by 25 basis points, loans to become costlier

It is simply becoming too costly to do business.

We soon have a situation of High inflation with poor growth.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Arjun »

Abhijeet wrote:As you yourself said, the Tatas can hire a token Dalit member to fulfil this criterion.
It all depends on how the rule is framed...in the US, the 5% reservation in GOTUS contracts is for minority-owned businesses ie they have to be 51% owned by women or minorities.....If the Indian rules are similar, hiring a Dalit alone won't cut it, they have to make him 51% owner.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by vishvak »

Is it possible to store grains at various store houses in India without NEAR*/ON* such corridors?

If there is a wastage/overflow of granaries, may be the risk can be shared.

In fact dry climates of Rajasthan and humid climates of Maharashtra can offer good environment to store various kind of perishables, as per various requirements.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by kumarn »

The central govt has run many schemes in the past 4-5 years promoting cold storage. We will have a decent network of cold storage facilities in the near future. But this would be better in Gujrat, than elsewhere, because of obvious reasons. And it is more geared towirds fruits and veggies.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by Pratyush »

What is the point, Governor?
The Reserve Bank of India has done it again. The twelfth rate hike in 18 months, this time of 25 basis points. The markets seem to have already factored this in and did not display any major jitters after the hike was announced.

But what is important to note is the fact that the central bank continues to accord top priority to inflation management, and has firmly put growth second in its list.
It seems that the GOI will not take any initiative that will help the manufacturing sector. Some thing that may actually help in reducing the current account deficit. Yet they will continue to attack inflation through the blunt instrument of Interest rate hikes. Thereby reducing growth rates.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by kumarn »

What the crap is this? They are trying to reduce inflation, particularly food price inflation by interest rate hikes!

I checked with my folks back in my village in east UP, they get just 3 Rs/kg for selling potatoes grown at their farms! The same potato I buy for 20/kg at the local mandi. Same is the case with other items. The increase in the prices are not because of increase in prices at the farm, but prices are being added between the farmer and the end user. How is that going to get reduced by hiking interest rates I fail to understand!
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by vishvak »

kumarn wrote:What the crap is this? They are trying to reduce inflation, particularly food price inflation by interest rate hikes!

I checked with my folks back in my village in east UP, they get just 3 Rs/kg for selling potatoes grown at their farms! The same potato I buy for 20/kg at the local mandi. Same is the case with other items. The increase in the prices are not because of increase in prices at the farm, but prices are being added between the farmer and the end user. How is that going to get reduced by hiking interest rates I fail to understand!
What to do when out home minister says that corruption IS in the system? In fact if essential commodities are traded as non-essential with approval of minister of agriculture, what to do? We know this but what to do?
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by joshvajohn »

reasons for Petrol and other prices up
Congressi Petrol Minister get money from Private petrol sellers - check his Swiss Bank account
Failed foreign policies because no investment no friendship with oil countries so govt has to buy through other sources
Govt wants to keep the money in the form of tax income
to keep the prices par with international prices but when the prices go down in India it never goes down
Congress is looting India, there is also a competition in looting among the ministers (who loots the most)
MMS has become a vegetable pm who has no control usually has no knowledge about these even if he is informed, his advisors would suggest him to ignore for the sake of his position or that he will tell that he did not know about this when it is revealed and so on
Shares are given to maximum receivers within Congress ministers and mps and to all in congress.
There is no fear of looting Indian wealth.
No one is bothered about the Economic situation of the government nor of the people in the govt.
Even the opposition is in no mood to raise the issues in terms of growth, investment and so on. The ministers are looking at which one to sell next? where to get the money next? This is the worst time of Indian history where looting is at its maximum without any court or any opposition or anyone interfering or threatening them either.


The Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) are the ones that have huge oil reserves and are its main producers. So, petrol is cheapest in Venezuela at just Rs 1.14 per litre. In Iran it sells for Rs 4.8 per litre. The second group comprises of countries like the US, Iraq, Indonesia, etc, where minimal tax is levied on petroleum products. They also have lower prices than India. A litre of petrol costs Rs 42.82 in the US.

India tops the group of countries which have moderate to high tax regimes. Others in the group are the EU countries and others like Singapore, New Zealand, Thailand and Brazil. At Rs 69.90 -the average price of petrol in 24 Indian cities -Indian prices are now comparable to price of petrol in EU. Romania has EU's cheapest petrol at Rs 72.33 per litre.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 023345.cms
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by SBajwa »

by Kumarn
I checked with my folks back in my village in east UP, they get just 3 Rs/kg for selling potatoes grown at their farms! The same potato I buy for 20/kg at the local mandi. Same is the case with other items. The increase in the prices are not because of increase in prices at the farm, but prices are being added between the farmer and the end user. How is that going to get reduced by hiking interest rates I fail to understand!
It has always been like that in India. The middle brokers make all the money while producers and consumers suffer!! it is the main cause of poverty of India.
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Re: Indian Economy: News and Discussion (Apr 1 2011)

Post by gakakkad »



What the crap is this? They are trying to reduce inflation, particularly food price inflation by interest rate hikes!
IMHO ..THE RBI has no option...because the gobermint is not using any policy change for inflation rbi has no option...one advantage in increasing rates would be that it would make borrowing expensive even for gov't so NREGA would become all the more expensive...

only a 1991 type crisis (or mid term polls with clear NDA majority) can save us by gov't forced to change policy and initiate reforms...
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