Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Y I Patel wrote: For that, Indian Islam has to be empowered to become post-independence India's sword. It is not to say that Indians are not trying - but if we keep trying to get to it in Indic terms it is simply not going to work. For it to work, India will need credible Muslims in leadership positions. It will work for non-political institutions, but that is not sufficient. It has to work at the level of politics, because everyone knows and understands that's where India's power is weilded.
Well, the (Fai-sponsored) Sachar committee report agrees with you. Actually, there is a section titled "Enhancing Participation in Governance" (page 240). Congratulations! I am sure the ghost of Jinnah is nodding approvingly.

Some members of this forum start jumping up and down when RSS and VHP are mentioned. And now ("old" :roll: ) members of this forum are recommending a "green PM". Maybe these are the properties of a "centrist" forum. I guess the ideas of democracy and equality are only important when the caste system is discussed. As the discussion moves beyond Hinduism, the defenders of "social democracy" are always ready to "walk an extra mile".

America has its problems with Islam. Maybe Y I Patel should push for 10% senate seats for Muslims in America. Since America is a "land of immigrants", I guess Americans should invite Muslims from countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. I am sure this gesture will reduce the probability of a terrorist attack on America.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Pranav »

shiv wrote:
Y I Patel wrote: Many Indians (and looks like most on BRF!) want nothing to do with Islam. And others, who fight for the Idea of a Secular India, really do so by cacooning Indian Islam as if it were a source of vulnerability that dare not be exposed. How about treating it as a sword for a change? How about India being the True Defender of Islam? If USA tries to pull a stunt like this, they will be a laughing stock. But India? Islam is India's heritage. Indian Islam is the fourth and biggest ethnic leg of Islam - numerically much larger than Arabic, Turkic and Persian Islam. Maybe inadvertantly, but in creating Pakistan the biggest casualty was Indian Islam, because it got broken first into two, and then three.
YIP. You are, as you always were in your earlier avatar, a brave man who is able to broach difficult subjects. BRF has decided long ago to people itself with members who contest this sort of idea. My observation of India the country is that your views have a greater following outside of BRF. To that extent the "forum" has developed a personality that has decided to wear blinkers with regard to Islam in India. Nothing wrong in representing a valid opinion - but BRF often fails to read the writing on the wall with regard to Islam in India simply because we are, on average happier and more comfortable pointing out that all Muslims are violent murderous and traitorous aliens and are less enthusiastic about admitting any sort of Islamic influence in India. To that extent we are doing a mirror image of Pakistaniyat where all Hindus/Indians are traitorous cowardly deceitful people whose influence on Islam/Muslims needs to be rejected outright.

I had said these things long ago on BRF and it never caused any happiness and always ended up with reactions of anger, disgust, rancor. As a fun experiment I discovered that i was able to say anything I felt like about Islam and Muslims on BRF with no opposition whatsoever, as long as I stuck to that. :D
Another strawman, Shiv ji. What is actually needed is free and frank appraisal of doctrines and founding prophets by civil society (not govt), without any kind of self-censorship. But we are too cowardly too do that.
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Y I Patel wrote: Hindu India will never be able to convince Pakistan that it is secular India. Only Muslim India can do that; only Muslim India can destroy the Idea that Pakistan is the Defender of Islam.
This is basically an example of appeasement strategy:

From brihaspati:
If one extreme goes even more extreme, we have to adjust and move more towards that extreme to remain strictly neutral. After all, equidistance is the onlee objective.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by ramana »

Some people excel in being for both sides of the argument.

They are like modern day Ashwatthamas!
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by shiv »

I am not sure how many people who studied law in India are left on BRF. But every time I have legal work to be done in India I am surprised at the words that crop up. One signs a "waqalat nama", and if you are getting property in your name you get a "transfer of Khata".

This is not Islam. It is the influence Islamic jurisprudence that actually still exists in the the lives of hundreds of millions of Indians. One viewpoint could be that this should be "Hinduized" and that all these references should be removed. Of course there is much Latin as well in Indian legal terminology and perhaps that can be removed too.

Nothing wrong in having ideas but implementing those ideas requires widespread support, or they have to be implemented by a dictatorial authority. In Pakistan changes have been sought to be imposed by dictatorial authority. Even so certain terms and influences have not gone away after decades.

I believe that by attempting a "equal and opposite", mirror image of what Pakistan has done, Indians are equating themselves with Pakistan and accepting that Pakistan has the right method. I understand that this is my personal viewpoint and I also understand that many Indians disagree and really do want to do a mirror image against Pakistan. I just think that the numbers of Indians who want to do that are limited and that such changes will not come to India without the use of force, coercion and indoctrination such as that which has been used by Pakistan.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by shiv »

Pranav wrote: Another strawman, Shiv ji. What is actually needed is free and frank appraisal of doctrines and founding prophets by civil society (not govt), without any kind of self-censorship. But we are too cowardly too do that.
And because of this continuous caterwaul "we are too cowardly" it is very very easy on BRF to behave non cowardly and say anything one wants - because we are showing such boldness, with freedom and frankness. But more often than not I think people are losing the plot by this ability to be bold, free and frank within the confines of a forum with people who are comfortable with those views. If a person says "Muslims are violent" there is little opposition on BRF as long as a series of yes men agree. And by doing that we consider ourselves bold, free and frank.

Actually it requires boldness to say something different. But the view we take on here is that Pakistan and Indian secularists are doing the job of appeasing Muslims, so we need "boldness" to oppose that. We are neither Pakistanis, nor are we secularists nor are we WKKs. As a group these are the views that are opposed on BRF. Please tell me if you believe I am wrong and that people on BRF feel that they are "secularists" or WKKs or that BRF actually wants to listen to what those groups have to say.

All I am doing is pointing out that since we are "not this" and "not that" we are going to find ourselves in a minority.
Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 800
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Y I Patel »

Airavat wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:Hindu India will never be able to convince Pakistan that it is secular India. Only Muslim India can do that; only Muslim India can destroy the Idea that Pakistan is the Defender of Islam. For that, Indian Islam has to be empowered to become post-independence India's sword. It is not to say that Indians are not trying - but if we keep trying to get to it in Indic terms it is simply not going to work. For it to work, India will need credible Muslims in leadership positions.
The above conditions already exist in the Kashmir region of J&K state. Muslim majority and Muslims in prominent positions. In fact the GOI under Nehru manipulated them into a ruling position over the rest of the J&K state.......now lets see how that affected Pakistan.

The tiny minority of Kashmiri Pandits was terrorized and driven out of the Kashmir region into the Jammu region by the Pakistanis and their agents. They even tried to engineer Hindu-Muslim clashes in the Hindu-majority Jammu region. After cleansing the Kashmir region of infidels, the pukes (punjabis and pashtuns) are now finding excuses to slaughter the Kashmiri Muslims on ethnic grounds.

So nothing we do in India will alter the pakistani mindset. The mere existence of multicultural India is a threat to these rogues. In fact, the idea that what India does in its internal matters has any effect on pukistan is quite naive. They have no interest in Indian Muslims except as tools to engineer further breakups of India. Remember that Pakistan closed its borders to Indian Muslims way back in 1953.

Let the multiple battles of purity, tanzeems, biradaris, provinces, languages, continue till this worthless land bleeds into oblivion.

I am sorry, but I would contest this on several points. Firstly, Nehru denied Kashmir's Indianness and made it Sheikh Abdullah's jagir. I will not accept that Kashmir is like the rest of India but with a Muslim majority - I do not speak anywhere of institutionalizing a mechnism to give muslims "reservations" in politics or elsewhere. I merely talk about instituting a voluntary practice of preferentially grooming able muslim leaders.

The way I look at it, Kashmir is, at best, what Pakistan would look like had it not driven out all Hindus and Shikhs. India already looks like what it is supposed to, Indian muslims included.
Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 800
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Y I Patel »

shiv,

Thanks for your kind words! While I am obstinate enough to dig in deeper when challenged, a kind word does give me a lot of encouragement to keep going :)
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by harbans »

Ironically the Indian Govt also has been behaving like the Paki's since independence. Here's how:

Core Paki thinking says " We are not like Indians/ Hindu's..so we do XYZ this way". So Paki's give a damn to Democracy, secular principles, pluralism, preach open hatred and disrespect towards other faiths etc..

Core Indian thinking wrt to Paki's speaks for itself: "We are not like the Paki's.. so we do XYZ this way"..so Indians believe in Democracy, secular principles (with all it's follies ok), pluralism, preach respect to other faiths etc..and irritatingly but quite innocently pisss off the average aam Ghazi in Paki Khaki's..

So wrt what we think about each other and how we believe we are..there's a remarkable similarity really. :mrgreen:

The differences thus always will lie in the core doctrines of each nation. They cannot be curtailed either by India making way and being some 'Bulwark of Islam' as opposed to the Paki state. We simply cannot be that. We couldn't even be the Bulwark of Buddhism for that matter..something so close to the Dharmic tradition of this country..and that has our Northern 'Neighbor' falling all over itself to claim the Buddhist heritage all for itself including by usurping Tibet and now eying Arunachal.

Yes we created the Buddhist heritage, we didn't do anything recently to preserve it as in it's traditional boundaries in Tibet and Myanmar and left them exposed. If we did want to be a bulwark for something then we have to be it's creator, preserver and also be capable of it's destruction. That's also as what some understand how God runs the universe...inherently one cannot be the bulwark of something one has not created..neither thus can Pakistan be the bulwark of Islam..as we see. Think about it.
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Y I Patel wrote: I merely talk about instituting a voluntary practice of preferentially grooming able muslim leaders .
I thought the policies of a "secular" country should not target any religious group for any positive/negative action. But maybe this definition is not "centrist" enough. In that case, I guess Americans should implement this policy.
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by harbans »

I thought the policies of a "secular" country should not target any religious group for any positive/negative action. But maybe this definition is not "centrist" enough. In that case, I guess Americans should implement this policy.
You are absolutely right to point that out. We will be unraveling our core pluralist approach if we groom specific religious groups for the purpose. We want able leaders irrespective of religious denomination. Once we identify a religious denomination we no longer should apply the 'able' word to it. Kalam got his respect and dues for what he was and not his religious denomination. I don't think the 'Able' Muslims will agree with that statement. I am certain if they focus on the opportunities that India has to offer, they don't need the push Sacchar recommends. And i think that applies to all communities in India as of today. JMT/
pgbhat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4172
Joined: 16 Dec 2008 21:47
Location: Hayden's Ferry

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by pgbhat »

Bombing at funeral kills at least 25 in northwestern Pakistan
The blast, the latest in a recent string of militant strikes against anti-Taliban forces and leaders, occurred minutes after the funeral prayer for Bakht Sultan began, an eyewitness said. At least 50 people were reported wounded.

Tariq Ali, a government official in the region, said Sultan’s tribe, the Mashwani, spans the border, and its militia patrols in both Lower Dir and the neighboring Afghan province of Konar.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Pranav »

shiv wrote:
Pranav wrote: Another strawman, Shiv ji. What is actually needed is free and frank appraisal of doctrines and founding prophets by civil society (not govt), without any kind of self-censorship. But we are too cowardly too do that.
If a person says "Muslims are violent" there is little opposition on BRF as long as a series of yes men agree. And by doing that we consider ourselves bold, free and frank.
Again the strawman ... it is not that there is a binary choice between being enthusiastic about Islam and declaring that every individual Muslim is a traitor.
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Y I Patel wrote: Firstly, Nehru denied Kashmir's Indianness and made it Sheikh Abdullah's jagir.
At that time, Sheikh Abdullah was the most popular leader in J&K. theek hai?
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Pranav »

abhishek_sharma wrote:
Y I Patel wrote: Firstly, Nehru denied Kashmir's Indianness and made it Sheikh Abdullah's jagir.
At that time, Sheikh Abdullah was the most popular leader in J&K. theek hai?
But was also a British asset. Popularity is something that can be manufactured by conferring importance etc. On this point one agrees with Patel.
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Airavat »

Y I Patel wrote:The way I look at it, Kashmir is, at best, what Pakistan would look like had it not driven out all Hindus and Shikhs.
Not at all. After cleansing the Kashmir region of infidels, the pukes (punjabis and pashtuns) are now finding excuses to slaughter the Kashmiri Muslims on ethnic grounds.

So nothing we do in India will alter the pakistani mindset. The mere existence of multicultural India is a threat to these rogues. In fact, the idea that what India does in its internal matters has any effect on pukistan is quite naive. They have no interest in Indian Muslims except as tools to engineer further breakups of India. Remember that Pakistan closed its borders to Indian Muslims way back in 1953.

Let the multiple battles of purity, tanzeems, biradaris, provinces, languages, continue till the worthless land of pukistan bleeds into oblivion.

Kindly remember that Congress leader Salman Khurshid was called a "rented Muslim" by the b@stards in the Pakistani government.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25382
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by SSridhar »

harbans wrote:So wrt what we think about each other and how we believe we are..there's a remarkable similarity really.
I knew this particular strain of discussion would be heated and hilarious too. But, never expected this hilarity. :D Thanks for injecting humour and reality too.
chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by chaanakya »

Y I Patel wrote:
Hindu India will never be able to convince Pakistan that it is secular India. Only Muslim India can do that; only Muslim India can destroy the Idea that Pakistan is the Defender of Islam. For that, Indian Islam has to be empowered to become post-independence India's sword. It is not to say that Indians are not trying - but if we keep trying to get to it in Indic terms it is simply not going to work. For it to work, India will need credible Muslims in leadership positions. It will work for non-political institutions, but that is not sufficient. It has to work at the level of politics, because everyone knows and understands that's where India's power is weilded. But unlike the Supreme Court or DRDO or the military, muslim politicians will not have an unimpeded path to highest levels of leadership. The reasons are understandable - why should a naturally and predominantly Hindu India preferentially and deliberately cede leadership to a Muslim? Why can't India let Pakistan self-destruct, as it is doing so effectively? Because the Country of Pakistan is no longer the Ravana India is fighting, and the defeat of the State of Pakistan may not be the end of the Idea that propels it to power. The Idea of some entity being the True Defender of Islam will survive and seek another body. And there are plenty of other corrupted bodies to nurture that soul. Any such avatar of the Idea will return to haunt India, unless India steps up as (sorry for mixing metaphors) Nilkanth to swallow Indian Islam and use it's potence as a vajra.
By terming India as "Hindu" or "Muslim" you are perhaps defeating your argument.

India has no need to convince others about its "secular" credentials, least of all to Pakistanis. India has other interest in destiny of Pakistan, least of all is its religion . Being a neighbor, the interest is genuine and India needs to act according to its self interest not taking into account the religious factor irrespective of what others may say. And if you read Ramayana , it was ravan who was seeking the fight and not the other way around. That is fight is forced by "Ravana" so be it. India can not become "Ravana" India as you intend to imply. I may be wrong about perceiving your argument.

If you mean to destroy terrorism then think of Raktabeeja and Bhsmasur as appropriate metaphor.

Just like you said, there is nothing like Indianness or Pakistani about Islam. It is a religion practices by millions in many countries just like Christianity or Buddhism etc. It will or won't survive the dialogue, inter-exchange and conflict of ideas and various factors would determine the direction. Also to expect some sort of finality is futile.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4270
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Rudradev »

Since we're talking in terms of broad, blue-sky visions now... and of course this is OT for this thread, but so is most of what's been said on this page... let me add to the speculation.

I think a real problem with our strategic thinking, as Indians, is that we persist in seeing the Ummah as some profound and eternal presence... one that will always be monolithic for all intents and purposes when confronting any and all non-Muslim entities.

We insist on seeing India, Israel and Thailand/Laos/Vietnam/Cambodia as the last non-Ummah holdouts against a threatening swath of Islam that already has the upper hand, and is poised to sweep our civilizations away the first chance it gets. This is a siege mentality, and in terms of strategic thinking, it ultimately leads to the same brick wall that we on BRF find ourselves hammered against every time one of these discussions crops up on one thread or the other.

I understand what Y I Patel ji is saying with his Ravan analogy. However, I do not agree with him that it can be effected by something as superficial as nominating (even if such a thing were practically possible) a Muslim to lead India.

But imagine this. I know there are a hundred million objections to be made in terms of practicality, in terms of how we get from point A to point B; but let's for a moment leave the road aside and look at point B. IMHO, Point B is the one and only circumstance in which I think a vision like Y I Patel ji's can be realized.

So here goes.

*****

What if, some day, ALL Indians got together and said: "we are Muslims."

What if they said: "We accept that Muhammad was a prophet of the almighty. We do not necessarily accept that he was the only prophet. To some of us he was an avatar of Vishnu/ a boddhisatva/a tirthankara. We do not place him in front of all our other deities or deny all other Gods. But we accept that Muhammad was a prophet of the almighty and we revere him as divine. We practice many of the principles he taught, of equality, justice, and charity. So we are Muslims."

Of course the instant, outraged response of the Establishment Mullahs and other Conventional Muslim states will be: "What nonsense! La-illaha-ill-Allah, Mohammed rasoolullah! No God but Allah and Mohammed was his only Prophet! You are speaking blasphemy!"

But what if, at this point, ALL Indians said: "Who are you to decide? You may have 1.6 billion Muslims in the world who will stand by your interpretation of Islam. But there are 1.2 billion of us. In fact (assuming a majority of Indian Muslims join a majority of Indian Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Christians, and Jains in taking this stance)... there are only 1.4 billion of you now. You say what you like. By our Indian understanding of Islam we are Muslims."

The Mullahs will say "Never! See, it is written in the Quran! It is written in Arabic! No God but Allah and Mohammed is his only Prophet! Haraam!"

But the reply comes: "What Arabic? We don't even speak Arabic. We speak Indian languages. We follow Indian customs. We are Indians. This is our Islam and by our definition we are Muslims. There are nearly as many of us as there are of you, so FO."

Since we are only looking at Point B let me continue with this fanciful and whimsical vision.

What if, next, the Indonesians also say the same thing? "Yes we are Muslims. Yes, we revere Mohammed. But we revere all the ways in which Allah manifested himself on the Earth. As Rama of Ayodhya, who destroyed evil in the form of Ravan. As Krishna who spoke wisdom to Arjun before the Great War. These stories may not be in your Arabic Quran but they are our stories, handed down by our ancestors who built our civilization. We revere our ancestors. We treasure these stories as the spiritual wealth of our people. We pray to Mohammed and Rama and Krishna. This is our Islam, now FO."

And then the Nigerians: "Truly Mohammed was an embodiment of spirit, an Orixa such as our ancestors have known. We revere him alongisde Yemanja, Shango, Olorun and many others who have always been the heart of our people's spirituality. We are Muslims. Don't dare tell us otherwise because some book written by some desert tribe forbids it."

The Iranians by this time are already chomping at the bit for an exploration and affirmation of Mithraic/Zoroastrian spirituality. They too will find some way to incorporate Mohammed, remain "Muslim" and tell the Quran-thumping Mullahs to FO.

In some nations it will be easier, in some far more difficult. But this is how the salvation of Islam will unfold. This is how the Reformation will visit Islam, when it does. It will also be the salvation of a world that finds itself (today) threatened by an Islamic Ummah which seems invincible and united in lock-step spiritual discipline.

*****
Ok, "Point B" Vision over.

When we look at the Ummah today we mix it up with all kinds of other things. We mix it up with our own experiences of idol-breaking Khiljis and Direct Action Days. We mix it up with our own myths about how Muslims will always side together against non-Muslims no matter how viciously they might fight each other when there aren't any non-Muslims around. And we come to the conclusion that the Islamic Ummah is this cancerous, indefatigable, unconquerable entity.

As Y I Patel ji says, we think of the Ummah as a Ravan that grows more heads the more you fight it... a monster that is strengthened by the very force of the attack against it.

In this one matter, I think Y I Patel ji is absolutely right.

The monstrous trans-national Islamic Ummah as we know it today is a creation of many things. Many of those things are accidents of fate which have favoured the rise of power brokers playing on pan-Islamist sentiment.

For example, it is a creation of colonialism: Muslims of many newly-independent countries in the mid-20th century did not see any reason to take pride in their national identities, with their nations having been so humiliated and enslaved by foreign masters for centuries; so they sought solace in a pan-Islamic Ummah identity instead.

It is a side-effect of a world economy based on oil, and the discovery of oil in Arab lands, which skewed geopolitical equations towards Arabia as a center of gravity. This created, at a mass level, some sort of consciousness that there was something special about Arabia... which again favoured the centralization impulse of the Pan-Islamists by casting a light of exceptionalism on the Quran.

It is the result of divisive politics practiced within countries that had both Muslim and Non-Muslim populations. Lebanon was one such. India is another; the Indian Muslims of today have been *deliberately incentivised* by the players of electoral politics, to renounce an Indian identity in favour of a Muslim one. This is exacerbated, again, by the Mullah power brokers of pan-Islamist identity... who thus become brokers of electoral contests in India as well.

And of course, it is a child of the geopolitical contests of the 20th century, from WWI through the Cold War, when powerful non-Muslim countries sought to consolidate various transnational Ummah formations as proxy effectors of power projection.

All this has left huge, immense power in the hands of Mullahs all over the world today. The Bin Ladenist/ Hizb-ut-Tahrir movements further aggravated this essentially centripetal tendency as a means to amass further power. With all these events, the deep underlying layers of pre-Islamic national cultures were completely swamped by the Pan-Islamic identity, at least at a political level. This happened over the last several decades, in a diverse array of countries with Muslim majority populations.

Today, with the "War on Terror" raging, the impetus towards still further pan-Islamist consolidation of a transnational Ummah continues to be strong. "Islam Khatrey mein hain" is the rallying cry of Mullahs everywhere... but what is the *subtext* of that cry? It is... "Islam khatrey mein hain, THEREFORE, renounce your nations, your cultures, your ancestors, your narratives, your ethnicity, your traditions, your individual beliefs... throw those things in the garbage and unite under our banner of Pan-Islamic Ummah."

But somewhere buried beneath all this are the seeds of counterpoise. A centrifugal reaction of peoples and nations and cultures, to the monochromatic Ummah-ization of Islam. The kind of reaction which, after the Reformation and the Thirty Years War, transformed Europe from a mass of warring fiefdoms owing primary political allegiance to some Church, into modern Westphalian nation states.

What will happen when this reaction materializes? The Mullahs will fight for their Conventional/Establishment vision of Islam, the Arabic Quran vision which gives them transnational Ummah-mandated social and political power. They will have to be confronted and killed en masse. It will be bloody. But if enough of the Muslim polity (as opposed to the Muslim religious hierarchy) are involved in this reaction, it will succeed.

Some day that reaction will take shape. But who will first germinate that seed? Who will crystallize it? Who has the Dharmic fortitude to first defy Conventional/Establishment Islam en masse and say: "we are Muslims, but we will pick and choose what to follow in Islam in consonance with the civilized principles of our ancestors; we will not take dictation from you Mullahs and your Arabic book?"

Could it be India?

Ok, running for cover now :mrgreen:
Last edited by Rudradev on 17 Sep 2011 12:02, edited 2 times in total.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by RajeshA »

Rudradev ji,

better would be to say, poobah was the Prophet of Vishnu, a 'somewhat misguided and quirky', if prophet, than a Prophet of Vishnu. Allah is just Vishnu's Arabic name. Of course the views of the avatars precede those of a mere prophet.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4270
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Rudradev »

Rajesh A ji, I think you see what I am getting at :mrgreen: Details can be worked out later, but I just wanted to put the general vision across for now: how India can be THE agent that begins the process of reforming all Islam.

The tricky part will be to create an "Indian Islam" that is as acceptable to Indian Muslims, as it is to Indians of all other religions to incorporate into their individual religions. Indian Muslims can put Muhammad first if they want, and that is OK by the rest of us. Indians of other religions can relegate Muhammad to whatever stature they are comfortable with, and that is OK by Indian Muslims.

Point is (dont ask me how to get there) all Indians accept Mohammed as divine. The "Only God/Only Prophet" idea of the Arabic Quran, is what is rejected with all necessary force. And the Establishment/Conventional Mullahs, who preach transnational Pan-Ummah sovereignty, must also be rejected with all necessary force.

"Allah" is just an Arab word for a concept that all civilized people have known about for much longer than Arabs.
Last edited by Rudradev on 17 Sep 2011 12:31, edited 2 times in total.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Pranav »

Rudradev wrote: What if, some day, ALL Indians got together and said: "we are Muslims."

What if they said: "We accept that Muhammad was a prophet of the almighty. We do not necessarily accept that he was the only prophet. To some of us he was an avatar of Vishnu/ a boddhisatva/a tirthankara.
If you try that you will only be treated with contempt.

Better to highlight the truth about the prophet as it comes out through the Sahih Hadiths, let people decide, and strictly enforce freedom of speech, freedom of choice.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by jamwal »

I used to follow this thread regularly. But many senior members high on some potent herbs are doing their best to rid me of this addiction. More power to old wise men who keep saying profound things just for the sake of it.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4270
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Rudradev »

Pranav wrote:
Rudradev wrote: What if, some day, ALL Indians got together and said: "we are Muslims."

What if they said: "We accept that Muhammad was a prophet of the almighty. We do not necessarily accept that he was the only prophet. To some of us he was an avatar of Vishnu/ a boddhisatva/a tirthankara.
If you try that you will only be treated with contempt.

Better to highlight the truth about the prophet as it comes out through the Sahih Hadiths, let people decide, and strictly enforce freedom of speech, freedom of choice.
Treated with contempt by whom? By the Conventional/Establishment Mullahs and the Pan-Ummahists, no?

If you care for their contempt you have already lost the battle. You have already bought so deeply into the Siege Mentality, that you have accepted the Ummah as not only eternal and invincible but as having the authority to treat you with contempt.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25382
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by SSridhar »

RajeshA wrote:better would be to say, poobah was the Prophet of Vishnu, a 'somewhat misguided and quirky', if prophet, than a Prophet of Vishnu. Allah is just Vishnu's Arabic name. Of course the views of the avatars precede those of a mere prophet.
A la 'reverse strategic depth' ?
Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3671
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Kashi »

Airavat wrote:So nothing we do in India will alter the pakistani mindset. The mere existence of multicultural India is a threat to these rogues. In fact, the idea that what India does in its internal matters has any effect on pukistan is quite naive. They have no interest in Indian Muslims except as tools to engineer further breakups of India. Remember that Pakistan closed its borders to Indian Muslims way back in 1953.

Let the multiple battles of purity, tanzeems, biradaris, provinces, languages, continue till the worthless land of pukistan bleeds into oblivion.

Kindly remember that Congress leader Salman Khurshid was called a "rented Muslim" by the b@stards in the Pakistani government.
Spot on. There's a saying in Hindi "Pake hue ghaDe par miTTi naHin chaDHti". Indian muslims for Pakistan are only useful if they can be used to justify the existence of Pakistan, to shed crocodile tears for, Babri, Godhra. Indian muslims that do not conform to this layout are either cowards, non-muslims with muslim names, atheists, munafiq, traitors or at best ignorant and unaware.

We must stop viewing Indian muslims from the prism of a Paki lens. For traitors such as Bhatkal and some valley Kashmiris, all bets are off though
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4270
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Rudradev »

No no Jamwal ji. You are right onlee. Let us continue to fear the all-powerful invincible Ummah and play the eternal victim instead. They are big and bad and growing bigger and badder every day; we are the last tragic inheritors of a proud but dying civilization.
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Arjun »

Rudradev wrote:The tricky part will be to create an "Indian Islam" that is as acceptable to Indian Muslims, as it is to Indians of all other religions to incorporate into their individual religions. Indian Muslims can put Muhammad first if they want, and that has to be OK by the rest of us. Indian Christians can put Jesus first before Muhammad, but they have to accept Muhammad. Hindus will put Brahma Visnhu Mahesh first and revere Mohammad at whatever position in the pantheon we feel comfortable, Sikhs/Buddhists/Jains likewise find some way to accommodate Mohammed, etc.
Am with Rudradev on the suggestion.....conceptually, this plays very well with India's civilizational attributes.

The larger issue is whether the Indian Muslim and Christian communities have the capacity to throw up quality leadership that is in synch with the worldview expressed. The bottleneck is really the lack of visionary leadership at those ends - but then again, India is a land of surprises - and I would not rule it out either.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Pranav »

Rudradev wrote:
Pranav wrote: If you try that you will only be treated with contempt.

Better to highlight the truth about the prophet as it comes out through the Sahih Hadiths, let people decide, and strictly enforce freedom of speech, freedom of choice.
Treated with contempt by whom? By the Conventional/Establishment Mullahs and the Pan-Ummahists, no?

If you care for their contempt you have already lost the battle. You have already bought so deeply into the Siege Mentality, that you have accepted the Ummah as not only eternal and invincible but as having the authority to treat you with contempt.
Treated with contempt by both the Ummahists and by the Indics who know the truth about the prophet.

It is not at all that the Ummah is invincible. However, the rock on which the ship of the Ummah will founder is truth, free speech and freedom of choice.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4270
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Rudradev »

Arjun, I think if the right economic/social/political incentives (and disincentives) exist, Indian Muslims and Christians will themselves throw up that quality of leadership which is required for this. The prevailing political conditions create the opposite social and economic incentives... vote bank politicking, pandering speeches about "first right" on resources, perversions of the term "secularism" etc. create conditions where exactly the wrong kind of leadership emerges to dominate Indian Christian and Muslim communities. THAT is where the bottleneck is.

Shorn of those incentives and the Bukhari/Shahabuddin/John Dayal type leaders they spawn... Indian Muslims and Indian Christians will finally be free to have a political identity that is first and foremost, Indian. Let us see what they throw up then of their own accord.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4270
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Rudradev »

Pranav wrote:
Rudradev wrote: Treated with contempt by whom? By the Conventional/Establishment Mullahs and the Pan-Ummahists, no?

If you care for their contempt you have already lost the battle. You have already bought so deeply into the Siege Mentality, that you have accepted the Ummah as not only eternal and invincible but as having the authority to treat you with contempt.
Treated with contempt by both the Ummahists and by the Indics who know the truth about the prophet.

It is not at all that the Ummah is invincible. However, the rock on which the ship of the Ummah will founder is truth, free speech and freedom of choice.
You are making the mistake of assuming that "truth" in terms of rationalisation and reason will make one whit of difference to the motivation of humans to seek religion... which is faith.

There are people who believe that they know the truth about Jesus. That he was in fact
1) A disciple of Kashmiri Shaiva rishis.
2) A contender to the throne of Judaea, of noble blood; that he died not from crucifixion but at the Masada in CE 76.
3) A drug addict who munched on ergot-laden wheat that fueled his visions of godliness.
4) All the above.

These people believe that documentary evidence of all this exists, and if only the Illuminati/Rothschilds/Freemasons could be persuaded to stop suppressing it, Christians of the world would suddenly stop being Christians.

They are wrong.

They are as wrong as Karunanidhi who says Rama Setu was a natural phenomenon, and thinks that this statement will stop Hindus from believing that Ram Setu was constructed by Lord Rama and his Vanara sena. Karunanidhi is wrong because he thinks that his allegation, which he claims is founded on "reason", will have any impact on the faith of Hindus. They have nothing to do with each other. Truly enough, his allegation simply irritated Hindus... it did not shake their belief.

Similarly, no amount of exposing "truth about Mohammed" is going to make one dent in the faith of Muslims. If anything it will make the Ummah stronger, because it reinforces the Establishment/Conventional Mullah's line of "Islam Khatre Mein Hai."

Indics understand the difference between faith and rationalisation, and the need for both as separate entities in ones life, better than perhaps any other civilised people on earth. That is why we have people who can design fast breeder reactors and also arrange their children's marriages based on astrological matches. There is NOTHING wrong, or contradictory about this. If we believe there is something wrong with it, we are only buying into Western supremacist (and Christian missionary) propaganda.
chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by chaanakya »

Rudradev wrote:
Treated with contempt by whom? By the Conventional/Establishment Mullahs and the Pan-Ummahists, no?

If you care for their contempt you have already lost the battle. You have already bought so deeply into the Siege Mentality, that you have accepted the Ummah as not only eternal and invincible but as having the authority to treat you with contempt.
Rudradevji, if you don't care about umma or their ideas and battles. why this compulsion to declare ourself biggest Umma in the town. Why this idea that my shirt is whiter than thou, that I am better muslim than you? Would anyone accept the pretention if there is no conversion. Surely , you know what ritualistic /conceptualistic procedure one needs to follow before actually embracing Islam and be counted as one of their own? Your idea might relegate 1.4 Bn Indians to a fate worse than Ahmadiyas. Do Indians have no selfrespect that they need to run and camouflage themselves?

Ok let us put image of prophet mohamad in our temples and start worshipping HIM as avatar of Vishnu and say that Islma is nothing but Arabic word for Hindusim. How about that? Same could be done for Christ and other religion. I thin Hinduas would not have much problem. We can divine some Sanskrit text to worship them as well. Shankar's advaita would copme to our rescue.
chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by chaanakya »

Rudradev wrote: Similarly, no amount of exposing "truth about Mohammed" is going to make one dent in the faith of Muslims.
No body has right to question what a Mislim or Hindu or Christian faith except from within.
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10205
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by sum »

saip wrote:Look at the lecherous Kianahi eyeing the Spanish defense minister!

Link
Uncovered meat ready for a Canadian visa?
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25382
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by SSridhar »

Amidst all this, let me post a real Pakistan news.

There is a demand for many provinces now, not only Seraiki. Let a thousand flowers bloom. From Nuggets of TFT.
New province Panjnad demanded

Daily Nawa-e-Waqt quoted PMLN leader Javed Hashmi as saying that one of the four provinces created in Punjab should be called Panjnad instead of Seraiki or Bahawalpur as that would include a larger territory. Aitzaz Ahsan said Punjab alone should not be divided but other provinces too should be divided into more provinces.

Give me province Neelab!

Daily Jinnah reported that one of the wives of politician Ghulam Mustafa Khar, Ms Neelofar Khar demanded that a new province located in the south of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa (DI Khan, Karak, Tank, Laki Marwat) and Punjab's north-western districts (Mianwali, Bhakkar, Khushab) should be established as a new province with the name Neelab. It was not known if the new province would be named after her.

A Potohar province, please!

Chief Editor Khushnood Ali Khan wrote in Jinnah that he had a Potohar province in mind for Punjab which would contain the following areas: Murree, Kahuta, Dhan Kihun, Jhelum, Attock, and Mianwali. In fact Kalabagh too should be included in Potohar.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Pranav »

Rudradev wrote: You are making the mistake of assuming that "truth" in terms of rationalisation and reason will make one whit of difference to the motivation of humans to seek religion... which is faith.

There are people who believe that they know the truth about Jesus. That he was in fact
1) A disciple of Kashmiri Shaiva rishis.
2) A contender to the throne of Judaea, of noble blood; that he died not from crucifixion but at the Masada in CE 76.
3) A drug addict who munched on ergot-laden wheat that fueled his visions of godliness.
4) All the above.

These people believe that documentary evidence of all this exists, and if only the Illuminati/Rothschilds/Freemasons could be persuaded to stop suppressing it, Christians of the world would suddenly stop being Christians.
The difference is that we would be relying on authentic sources from within the tradition.

Also, you underestimate the power of free speech and free thought. Today, in Europe, Churches are empty and only some 8% of the population of Europe take the Bible seriously. I am saying that Islamism is much more brittle than Christianity.
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by harbans »

Indian Muslims can put Muhammad first if they want, and that has to be OK by the rest of us. Indian Christians can put Jesus first before Muhammad, but they have to accept Muhammad. Hindus will put Brahma Visnhu Mahesh first and revere Mohammad at whatever position in the pantheon we feel comfortable, Sikhs/Buddhists/Jains likewise find some way to accommodate Mohammed, etc.
The suggestion is not a panacea. It's starkly similar to how a large part of Arabia got Islamized. This has been attempted before by none other than Mohammed himself in the 7th Century. Muhammed came with now banned verses accepting prayers of intercession on behalf of 2 other Goddesses. A lot of people who escaped from Arabia to Abyssinia were appeased by Mohammed's gesture and said Islam is then exactly like us as it accepts prayers on intercession. They accepted 'Islam'. The doctrine of excluvism and fear associated with apostasy remained in place. After a few months all Mohamed did was pass a decree that the verses were false and given by the Devil himself. Those who tried to get back faced Islam's wrath on the apostates. In effect in converted a large number of people who wouldn't otherwise have joined Islam to begin with.

I agree with Pranav ji's take on this. Truth works. It relates directly and deeply inside a person at some level, irrespective of his conditioning. It keeps peeling off the mental fog that brainwashing brings about (and this is applicable IMHO to any religious denomination to some extent)..till clarity comes in. The Islamists' biggest fear is the Freedom of Speech. That's why every attempt will be made to prevent doctrinal debate.
Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Pranav »

chaanakya wrote:
Rudradev wrote: Similarly, no amount of exposing "truth about Mohammed" is going to make one dent in the faith of Muslims.
No body has right to question what a Mislim or Hindu or Christian faith except from within.
Society has a responsibility to protect those who want to question, from within or without. But yes, within is preferable.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4270
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by Rudradev »

chaanakya wrote:
Rudradev wrote:
Treated with contempt by whom? By the Conventional/Establishment Mullahs and the Pan-Ummahists, no?

If you care for their contempt you have already lost the battle. You have already bought so deeply into the Siege Mentality, that you have accepted the Ummah as not only eternal and invincible but as having the authority to treat you with contempt.
Rudradevji, if you don't care about umma or their ideas and battles. why this compulsion to declare ourself biggest Umma in the town. Why this idea that my shirt is whiter than thou, that I am better muslim than you? Would anyone accept the pretention if there is no conversion. Surely , you know what ritualistic /conceptualistic procedure one needs to follow before actually embracing Islam and be counted as one of their own? Your idea might relegate 1.4 Bn Indians to a fate worse than Ahmadiyas. Do Indians have no selfrespect that they need to run and camouflage themselves?

Ok let us put image of prophet mohamad in our temples and start worshipping HIM as avatar of Vishnu and say that Islma is nothing but Arabic word for Hindusim. How about that? Same could be done for Christ and other religion. I thin Hinduas would not have much problem. We can divine some Sanskrit text to worship them as well. Shankar's advaita would copme to our rescue.
Chaanakya ji, I think you're confusing some of what I have said.

Who said we have to be the biggest Umma in the world, our shirt is whiter etc? No. As Muslims we are the biggest Ummah in India. As followers of Dharmic faiths, most Indians can be Muslims *by OUR definition of Islam* without sacrificing even one iota of our Dharmic religious identity.

The question now is, WHO decides which definition of Islam is the correct one? 1.2 billion of us or 1.4 billion of them (and similar, culture-based fissures can appear among "them" in other nations at any time?) Does it have to be based on historical precedence i.e. Arabic Quran was written in CE 80x, therefore the Mullahs who point to it are the final arbiter? B@lls. We say no. We say, we understood God (i.e. Ishwar, i.e. Brahman, i.e. Allah) when Arabs were scratching their hairy hides, living in caves and throwing feces at each other. So who are they to define Islam for us? They cannot even define it for the 12-er Shias of Iran.
Would anyone accept the pretention if there is no conversion
What "pretension"? By whose definition is it a "pretension"? Not by the definition of 1.2 billion Indians. We have self-converted to our understanding of Islam which is fully consonant with our Dharmic roots. All 1.2 billion of us. That's all.

Of course the Establishment/Conventional Mullahs will try everything to fight us on this. We will fight them back, in the name of our Islam! We will shout Allah Hu Akbar and use full-scale Jihadi reprisal against them... two eyes for an eye, twenty lives for a life etc. We will replace them with our own clergy.
Surely , you know what ritualistic /conceptualistic procedure one needs to follow before actually embracing Islam and be counted as one of their own?
By whose prescription, ours or theirs?

Let us say I am sitting here at my keyboard and I have embraced Islam. I have Ganesha at home as well, and worship Him as well. I read the Gita. Let us say I believe Muhammad came to earth to restore Dharma. If there are enough others like me what will the Mullahs do? If I count me as "one of our own"... Muslim by my definition... and 1.2 billion others count me that way... and I count them all as Muslims by our Indian definition. Then what will the Mullahs do? Who are they to count or not count?
Your idea might relegate 1.4 Bn Indians to a fate worse than Ahmadiyas. Do Indians have no selfrespect that they need to run and camouflage themselves?
I don't think you understand at all. There is no question of camouflage. It is a matter of taking Islam and making it our own, with our own hands and our own mindset, in FULL VIEW of ALL the other nations of the Ummah... from Indonesia to Nigeria. And thus giving them an example to do the same, in their own national and cultural contexts. What "Ummah" will be left after we all succeed?

And really, boss, who is going to treat 1.4 Billion Indians like Ahmadiyas are treated in Pakistan today? The remaining 1.4 billion "Establishment" Muslims of the world? Let them try. They can't convert us to Islam by force even now, what are they going to do when we all embrace Islam by our own definition? Let's first and foremost, discard the siege mentality that Muslims can do anything of the kind.

Also, you have answered your own question:
Q:
Surely , you know what ritualistic /conceptualistic procedure one needs to follow before actually embracing Islam and be counted as one of their own?
A:
No body has right to question what a Mislim or Hindu or Christian faith except from within
.

EXACTLY. That's why it is important to say... we, ALL of us Indians ARE MUSLIMS. Then we are WITHIN (by our own definition) Islam. We have broadened it by the sheer force of our presence. Then if anyone starts talking to us about ritualistic/conceptualistic procedure we question them from within... "we don't think that's necessary, why should we do it? After all there are as many of us as there are of you! Who are you to teach us procedures?"
Ok let us put image of prophet mohamad in our temples and start worshipping HIM as avatar of Vishnu and say that Islma is nothing but Arabic word for Hindusim. How about that? Same could be done for Christ and other religion. I thin Hinduas would not have much problem. We can divine some Sanskrit text to worship them as well. Shankar's advaita would copme to our rescue.
Now you are talking about modalities. Maybe, what you suggest here can be one way to get there. But for the moment, I was only concerned with articulating an end vision as a possible goal. Getting there presents many many problems; but if the goal is desirable, Indians of all people can achieve it without losing anything of their own Dharm in the process.
harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Post by harbans »

we, ALL of us Indians ARE MUSLIMS. Then we are WITHIN (by our own definition) Islam.
Rudradev ji, Islam has never allowed any majority to define itself. Islams way will be dictated by those pious who are powerful. The pious know they are nearer the literal versions as mandated by the founder of Islam. There is a whole jamboree of texts to justify that piety even when expressed through violent means. The incentives against the 'hypocrites' are just too big to ignore both for the pious with violent means and the 'Hypocrite'. Thus the truth on Islam will be won by those who are more pious. Those worshipping the doctored version..will face violence or will slowly over generations have to submit to the more literal and pious versions. This has been tried before as i mentioned..and failed miserably. The Arabians who worshiped different Gods and were willing to consider Mohammed as just another messenger failed. Now it would be good if one looked up what defines a Muslim. This strand of thinking is nothing but simplistic harakiri IMHO.
Post Reply