J&K News and Discussion-2011

[eklavya]

Rony,

I hold no brief for the UPA, and frankly would like to see the Government attack terrorism more directly, instead of preparing dossiers and installing dysfunctional secuity cameras at the High Court. I only got engaged in this exchange because of RamaY's suggestion that the Centre under the UPA is weak (even though the resolutions in question are being passed by elected state assemblies and the Centre has no role to play), which is just petty party political point scoring; and I wanted to examine that proposition, and therefore the references to Major. Jaswant Singh's (in)famous journey to Kandahar. I advocate that the Indian Air Force bombs to dust ISI HQ and GHQ in Islamabad in response to Pakistan sponsored terrorism. Sadly, no party seems to be on my wavelength.

[SBajwa]

What i was objecting was the way some people always bring up kandhahar episode whenever some one critiques UPA's terrorism using torn shirt vs open fly type arguments.

Before these Hijackings/kidnappings there were

1. Jan 30th 1971 Indian Airlines Fokker F27 on scheduled Srinagar-Jammu flight is hijacked to Lahore by two self-proclaimed Kashmir Separatists. All passengers were released by February 2 and repatriated to India, but the aircraft was blown-up—leading to an India-Pakistan air-travel ban, and suspension of overflight rights until 1976.

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_kidna ... iya_Sayeed

It is not as if the whole saga started with Kandhar.

[ramana]

Sum< So the terrorist is doing a failure analysis on why the car boamb dint go off as he was assured!

Did he consider effects of moisture accumulating overnight in cold December weather in Delhi?

And also every rascal claims to be Brahmin in his earlier unconverted life!

[RamaY]

I only got engaged in this exchange because of RamaY's suggestion that the Centre under the UPA is weak (even though the resolutions in question are being passed by elected state assemblies and the Centre has no role to play), which is just petty party political point scoring;

I already criticized NDA and even APJ Kalam for not hanging these terrorists when they were in power.

What we are seeing now is a different phase, two elected state assemblies pass (or in the process) resolutions to release terrorists who were involved in (1) a PMs assassination and (2) An attack on Parliament.

My statement was not about NDA or UPA but the weakened center in our federal structure.

[abhishek_sharma]

and therefore the references to Major. Jaswant Singh's (in)famous journey to Kandahar.

You forgot to mention that relatives of IC-814 passengers were saying In Delhi "jo maangte hain de do, kashmir de do, mera beta laa do". Maybe self-introspection will provide better explanations for Jaswant Singh's trip.

And as far as I can see, citizens of India are not clamoring for joint sovereignty in J&K.

even though the resolutions in question are being passed by elected state assemblies and the Centre has no role to play), which is just petty party political point scoring; and I wanted to examine that proposition,

And the BJP govt rejected the demand for more autonomy in 2000. So you are welcome to examine that proposition. Just make sure that you are not suffering from selective amnesia.

[abhishek_sharma]

Only one party did not allow citizens of India to hoist the national flag in Srinagar. Syama Prasad Mukherjee was ideologically closer to another party. And what was his contribution to the history of J&K?

[wig]

Pak wants China rail link through PoK - this appears to be chinese playing psychological games from PTI in Beijing, September 19

Pakistan wants China to construct a rail link through Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir (PoK) and a network of oil and gas pipelines, which will help cut costs for Beijing's burgeoning energy needs and ensure mutual benefit.

Pakistan has also offered to be part of a Chinese plan to build a new Silk Road to connect the oil-rich Xinjiang region with Euro-Asian countries, including Russia. Xinjiang borders Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110920/main7.htm

[ManishH]

Good if cheeni energy supply lines remain in striking distance.

[vishvak]

Pak wants China rail link through PoK - this appears to be chinese playing psychological games from PTI in Beijing, September 19

Pakistan wants China to construct a rail link through Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir (PoK) and a network of oil and gas pipelines, which will help cut costs for Beijing's burgeoning energy needs and ensure mutual benefit.

Pakistan has also offered to be part of a Chinese plan to build a new Silk Road to connect the oil-rich Xinjiang region with Euro-Asian countries, including Russia. Xinjiang borders Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110920/main7.htm

Trust pakis to have such behaviors.

I though wonder why the wise men from China fall for baitbaaji of this kind. See how confidently pakis deal with Chinese too like paki always have others, and say that pakis got balls.

[eklavya]

Only one party did not allow citizens of India to hoist the national flag in Srinagar. Syama Prasad Mukherjee was ideologically closer to another party. And what was his contribution to the history of J&K?

Please do not confuse "citizens of India" with the BJP leadership. The BJP leadership was invited to the official flag raising ceremony in Bakshi Stadium in Srinagar, with adequate security bandobast, but chose not to attend. Unless you have been hiding in a cave for the last 22 years, you would have noticed that there is big problem with terrorism in Kashmir. Why should the Government spend money and deploy security resources to protect the BJP leadership (a very high profile target) from these terrorists when they are wilfully putting themselves in the way of harm? There are thousands of people (military and civilian) who are doing their duty in J&K and serving the national interest, sometimes at great risk to their lives, including marking Independence Day and Republic Day with full pomp and ceremony. The BJP leadership only highlighted on an important national day that we still have a major security problem in Srinagar; it did not bring any glory to India or for that matter the BJP. A sensible person does not organise a children's birthday party in a tiger's enclosure, or organise a swimming competition in water full of sharks; it is possible with enough manpower, technology and expense, but what is the point if there is already a safe alternative venue available? This was nothing but an ill thought through bogus publicity stunt by the BJP.

[CRamS]

eklavya:

Please, spare us your self righteous nonsense. Free speech, or right to peacefully demonstrate is most effective only when it is provocative. Otherwise, what the hell is the use for free speech? You are left with useless US media then. So, yes, BJP's tiranga yarta would have provoked a violent reaction from Paki proxies, but thats where its the job of MMS to provide security and boldy declare that as Indian citizens, BJP have a right to assert their national identity in J&K. Why does MMS allow Yasin mallik, Geelani etc to raise the green flag and insult India? Why does MMS allow that b%^&*h Adhoti to commit sedition right under his nose making provacative speeches calling for J&K's secession? By caving in to Pakis, MMS has shown that Kashmir valley is only nominally Indian territory, and is not willing to defend it from Paki aggression. By shying away from addressing a problem, it won't go away.

And its not as if MMS has no b@lls. He showed them in abundance when he used his state power (Delhi police) to bulldoze Baba Ramdev, including men, women, and children gathered at Lal Maidan singing bhajans into submission. But he is running scared of using state power against Pakis and their proxies in J&K for fear of escalation.

[vishvak]

Only one party did not allow citizens of India to hoist the national flag in Srinagar. Syama Prasad Mukherjee was ideologically closer to another party. And what was his contribution to the history of J&K?

Please do not confuse "citizens of India" with the BJP leadership. The BJP leadership was invited to the official flag raising ceremony in Bakshi Stadium in Srinagar, with adequate security bandobast, but chose not to attend. Unless you have been hiding in a cave for the last 22 years, you would have noticed that there is big problem with terrorism in Kashmir. Why should the Government spend money and deploy security resources to protect the BJP leadership (a very high profile target) from these terrorists when they are wilfully putting themselves in the way of harm? There are thousands of people (military and civilian) who are doing their duty in J&K and serving the national interest, sometimes at great risk to their lives, including marking Independence Day and Republic Day with full pomp and ceremony. The BJP leadership only highlighted on an important national day that we still have a major security problem in Srinagar; it did not bring any glory to India or for that matter the BJP. A sensible person does not organise a children's birthday party in a tiger's enclosure, or organise a swimming competition in water full of sharks; it is possible with enough manpower, technology and expense, but what is the point if there is already a safe alternative venue available? This was nothing but an ill thought through bogus publicity stunt by the BJP.

Correct that hoisting national flag in Lal Chowk is not prerogative of only BJP. But why are separatists running wild still and want to hoist their own flags in Lal Chawk?
It was not considered as a terrorism threat problem, but as a law and order problem!!!!!! The assertions above are factually incorrect.

From
http://www.hindustantimes.com/BJP-s-fla ... 54864.aspx

"We got a farcical invitation from the chief minister to take part in the official function in Srinagar," said Swaraj.

"Was he not aware that we were under arrest?"
...
The Lal Chowk flag hoisting - distinct from the official one - was a tradition that began with BJP leader Murli Manohar Joshi's Ekta Yatra from Kanyakumari to Srinagar in 1992, which culminated with Joshi raising the tricolour at that spot on Republic Day amid enormous security and controversy as well.

The para-military forces in Kashmir kept up the tradition in subsequent years, but Omar Abdullah, after he became chief minister, had it discontinued in 2008.

Another gem:

The Jammu and Kashmir government has expressed deep reservations about the BJP's flag hoisting plan, terming it a bid to inflame communal passions in the valley, and separatist leaders have also voiced their strong opposition to it.

How is flag hoisting in Lal Chowk an problem for anyone? BJP didn't goto PoK for this.
From http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 340682.cms

"They are providing a safe place for the activities of separatists and legally bringing terrorists to the valley. They are the biggest threat to Kashmir. If Kashmir is not safe, then it would be a threat to the whole country."

[eklavya]

eklavya:

Please, spare us your self righteous nonsense. Free speech, or right to peacefully demonstrate is most effective only when it is provocative. Otherwise, what the hell is the use for free speech? You are left with useless US media then. So, yes, BJP's tiranga yarta would have provoked a violent reaction from Paki proxies, but thats where its the job of MMS to provide security and boldy declare that as Indian citizens, BJP have a right to assert their national identity in J&K. Why does MMS allow Yasin mallik, Geelani etc to raise the green flag and insult India? Why does MMS allow that b%^&*h Adhoti to commit sedition right under his nose making provacative speeches calling for J&K's secession? By caving in to Pakis, MMS has shown that Kashmir valley is only nominally Indian territory, and is not willing to defend it from Paki aggression. By shying away from addressing a problem, it won't go away.

And its not as if MMS has no b@lls. He showed them in abundance when he used his state power (Delhi police) to bulldoze Baba Ramdev, including men, women, and children gathered at Lal Maidan singing bhajans into submission. But he is running scared of using state power against Pakis and their proxies in J&K for fear of escalation.

The BJP leadership fully expected to be not allowed to disrupt Republic Day celebrations in Srinagar. Who do they think they are fooling. Like I said before, only brought shame upon themselves.

Please send Baba Ramdev to sign bhajans in Lal Chowk. You should go with him. I will watch the video afterwards

[eklavya]

Why does MMS allow Yasin mallik, Geelani etc to raise the green flag and insult India? Why does MMS allow that b%^&*h Adhoti to commit sedition right under his nose making provacative speeches calling for J&K's secession?

CRamS, if MMS had to put everyone in Kashmir who is prepared to raise the green flag and call for secession in jail, then we will need a jail with room for a few hundred thousand / million people.

J&K is an integral part of India. But please do not fool yourself, there are a large number of people in Kashmir that are anti-India, pro-Pakistan, and pro-Azaadi. It breaks my heart that many Kashmiris are anti India, but they are. We cannot break the country, but we also cannot put all of these people (our citizens) in jail if they call for secession and/or raise the enemy's flag; nor can democratic India beat them into submission the way China does in Tibet or Pakistan in Baluchistan.

We need to find a democratic humane solution within the four walls of the Constitution of India. This is not an easy problem to solve ... and cheap political stunts will not help.

[vishvak]

The BJP leadership fully expected to be not allowed to disrupt Republic Day celebrations in Srinagar. Who do they think they are fooling. Like I said before, only brought shame upon themselves.

Please send Baba Ramdev to sign bhajans in Lal Chowk. You should go with him. I will watch the video afterwards

Very easy to say so though BJP used to do that all these years since 1992. The problem here was that the separatists wanted to raise their flags exactly where BJP hoist Tiranga every year. The bigger problem was that BJP was not allowed to hoist the national flag because separatists wanted to hoist their own flags. The local authorities of Abdulla clan made that connection as a law and order problem and Congress did not even say a word.

[eklavya]

The BJP leadership fully expected to be not allowed to disrupt Republic Day celebrations in Srinagar. Who do they think they are fooling. Like I said before, only brought shame upon themselves.

Please send Baba Ramdev to sign bhajans in Lal Chowk. You should go with him. I will watch the video afterwards

Very easy to say so though BJP used to do that all these years since 1992. The problem here was that the separatists wanted to raise their flags exactly where BJP hoist Tiranga every year. The bigger problem was that BJP was not allowed to hoist the national flag because separatists wanted to hoist their own flags. The local authorities of Abdulla clan made that connection as a law and order problem and Congress did not even say a word.

vishvak, Tiranga and BJP-Congress sparring is great and everything, but even more important is that Kashmiri Pandits can live in Kashmir without fear for their lives and property.

Now, what has the UPA government or the NDA government done to provide security for Kashmiri Pandits, should they choose to return to their homes in Kashmir?

I will pay attention and respect if any political party says that they will deploy the security forces (in as many numbers as required) to protect every single Kashmiri Pandit that returns to live in Kashmir.

[Sanku]

The pacification of Kashmir was primarily a NDA effort -- post Parakram.

BJP does not have a wand to fix a 1000 years of misdeeds of Dynasts in the mold of Nehru and the recent poor photocopies of him.

Measuring folks against a impossible standard is meaningless, all is only relative.

Give BJP 3/4 majority, let them implement their agenda of removal of article 370. I guarantee, we will not even need security men in Kashmir any longer.

It is the active effort of Indian state which is keeping Kashmir issue alive, not Pakistan, not the handful of stone pelting eunuchs (with due respect to the eunuchs) who think they have a big deal.

That is the tragedy, the Kashmir issue is first and foremost and ONLY -- directly a mess of Nehru's making and kept alive by his mindchilds.

Kashmir issue is for our to solve in blink of an eye -- since it starts from the dark spots (of personal power and ambition, of playing to gallery over national interest, of vote bank politics, of deracination and loathing of fellow countrymen) -- of OUR mind.

Kashmir is irrelevant by itself -- its only relevance is to remind what Nehruvian politics does.

Remember and learn.

[abhishek_sharma]

Wow. It appears that you have a Ph. D. in Lahori logic from Salman Taseer University. Let us see what you have said here ...

Please do not confuse "citizens of India" with the BJP leadership.

I was thinking that BJP leaders were citizens of India. I guess I was wrong. Only non-BJP citizens have the right to hoist the flag.

The BJP leadership was invited to the official flag raising ceremony in Bakshi Stadium in Srinagar, with adequate security bandobast, but chose not to attend.

So? Don't they have the right to organize their own flag-hoisting ceremony? Maybe only one section of the community has the right to hoist the flag in J&K?

Why should the Government spend money and deploy security resources to protect the BJP leadership (a very high profile target) from these terrorists when they are wilfully putting themselves in the way of harm?

Wow.. Another gem. So BJP leadership should not go to J&K because they would be "wilfully putting themselves in the way of harm". Can we have similar rules to ensure that people of another community stay in well-defined geographical locations? I am sure that would cause great takleef to your "secular" soul?

By the way, why aren't Congress leaders "high profile targets"? It appears that terrorists don't have any problems with their ceremonies. Have you tried to explain this great pyar-ishq-mohabbat? Maybe because terrorists love their appeasement policies and joint sovereignty proposal?

There are thousands of people (military and civilian) who are doing their duty in J&K and serving the national interest, sometimes at great risk to their lives, including marking Independence Day and Republic Day with full pomp and ceremony.

But these thousands of soldiers were not enough for securing one more ceremony. And the Independence Day and Republic Day with "full pomp and show" can only happen as long as BJP is a peripheral observer.

The BJP leadership only highlighted on an important national day that we still have a major security problem in Srinagar; it did not bring any glory to India or for that matter the BJP.

BJP's yatra highlighted the bigotry in J&K politics. UPA's policies did not bring any glory to India.

A sensible person does not organise a children's birthday party in a tiger's enclosure, or organise a swimming competition in water full of sharks;

So BJP: Yasin Malik = Children: Tiger ?

Good Analogy. Write a Ph. D. thesis titled "Dhimmi policies for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice."

[BijuShet]

Rony,

I hold no brief for the UPA, ..

But sirjee all your venom is reserved for BJP opposition party's actions and the 1999-2004 NDA sarkari term only. But when it comes to UPA sarkar and its leader, the PM of Indian here is what you wrote in the Indian Army thread.

I have a huge amount of respect for Dr. Manmohan Singh, but in this case his government has got it very very wrong. The stupid article in India Today by that 2-penny journalist has undermined whatever little credibility the Government had on this issue. The Government needs to find itself a face saving solution (like appointing an independent commission or such like), otherwise more indignity will be heaped on the Government on this issue. An honourable person like Dr. Manmohan Singh should be a natural ally of Gen. VKS, establish the truth, and move on to respectively govern and protect the country. This controversy should not be happening.

From the Jan LokPal Bill thread

Only the naive would believe that MMS is only worth 5 crore. 500 or 5000 crore sounds more plausible .

I believe MMS. Either you should show evidence or you should not accuse a person of wrongdoing. That would be the fair and decent way to approach this.

and further

^^^ I technically did not accuse him . I just said that it is more plausible for him to be several folds richer than his stated wealth of 1.1 million USD . I said that it is implausible for him (different from directly accusing him) for him to be not corrupt.

You are accusing MMS of lying about his assets, and therefore you are also accusing him of being corrupt. You should offer some proof if you wish to make such a serious accusation. Otherwise, you are writing in an indecent and dishonest fashion.

I have never seen any evidence of anything but total integrity in Dr. Manmohan Singh's personal financial affairs.

Sirjee no comment from you on the Cash for votes scandal to save the UPA I sarkar under the current PM by buying opposition MPs with bags of cash. So much integrity in the UPA sarkar and its PM for all to see but you.

Some of us here see that kind of behaviour as UPA ki chamchagiri while being disguised as a non-partisan Indian nationalist poster.

[eklavya]

By the way, why aren't Congress leaders "high profile targets"? It appears that terrorists don't have any problems with their ceremonies. Have you tried to explain this great pyar-ishq-mohabbat? Maybe because terrorists love their appeasement policies and joint sovereignty proposal?

What makes you think Congress leaders are not high profile targets? Seems like you are suffering from a persecution complex.

And what joint sovereignity proposal? How does that fit with the Constitution of India?

[abhishek_sharma]

What makes you think Congress leaders are not high profile targets? Seems like you are suffering from a persecution complex.

I am not suffering from any problem saar. There would be no problem if Congress leaders organize their ceremonies in J&K. It is a fact. It was mentioned by J&K reporters that Kashmiris were opposing the yatra because BJP is seen as a Hindu party.

And what joint sovereignity proposal? How does that fit with the Constitution of India?

Maybe you should ask MMS about it? It is, after all, his dream.

As far as constitution is concerned, I am sure Amar Singh and his bags (full of money) can solve that problem.

[eklavya]

Some of us here see that kind of behaviour as UPA ki chamchagiri while being disguised as a non-partisan Indian nationalist poster.

BijuShet, I don't need a certificate from you on anything and I have never disguised my utmost admiration for Dr. Manmohan Singh. Please address my arguments, if you can.

And if I recall correctly (you can search my posts), I specifically said on the Anna Hazare thread that as leader of the Government, Dr. Singh bears ultimate responsibility for the 2G and Commonwealth Game scams (even if he did not benefit personally). Even in the Army thread I have criticised his Government's handling of the Gen. VKS DOB issue. In the thread above, I have criticised his Government for not tackling terrorism more directly and for not providing protection to Kashmiri Pandits.

[BijuShet]

Some of us here see that kind of behaviour as UPA ki chamchagiri while being disguised as a non-partisan Indian nationalist poster.

BijuShet, I don't need a certificate from you on anything and I have never disguised my utmost admiration for Dr. Manmohan Singh. Please address my arguments, if you can.

OT Alert disclaimer.
Sirjee I did not issue you any certificate but I did bestow upon you the "UPA ka Chamcha" as a honorific title to be used just like the Dr. you use in front of PM Manmohan Singh's name. just clarifying incase you misunderstood.

I see no need to address any of your arguments when you are clearly arguing based on your admiration of an individual and also based on your despise for a particular political party and its leaders. Aap apna bhajan gaao aur hum apna bhajan gayenge. This is prajatantra after all and it helps, other people who argue against you, to know if you are pushing an agenda while pretending to be impartial well wisher of India. Lately there have been a few like yourself who got called out. Some of those no longer post here.

[eklavya]

you are pushing an agenda while pretending to be impartial well wisher of India. Lately there have been a few like yourself who got called out. Some of those no longer post here.

BijuShet, I know you don't like my arguments, but since you are not capable of arguing against them, you are resorting to personal attacks, and attacking the messenger, hoping to undermine the message. You see I learned about this tactic of yours from studying Islamic fundamentalism and other forms of extremist ideologies. If you are hoping to shut me up, you will be waiting for a long time.

[brihaspati]

^^^I am curious! Which "extremist" and "Islamic fundamentalism" -ideologies shoot the messenger and not the message - as a method?

Can we start with the issue of shooting the "BJP" - party/leadership - about the flag-hoisting issue rather than shooting their obvious "message" that J&K under current dispensation behaves like a sovereign independent nation that reserves the final right to decide which Indians can go there to raise the foreign tri-colour and which explicitly also thinks the "Hindu" identity as supposedly represented by the "BJP" as incompatible with its sovereignty?

[CRamS]

CRamS, if MMS had to put everyone in Kashmir who is prepared to raise the green flag and call for secession in jail, then we will need a jail with room for a few hundred thousand / million people.

Let them do it and no need to arrest the scum. But let BJP host the tri color too. And an assertive state should show who is the boss, if the anti-India scum commit any violence and not run like a bunch of strangled chickens and hide behind secularism.

J&K is an integral part of India.

This is hot air. Its like a handosme guy like you proclaiming that Angelina Jolie is yours. Just by saying so, doesn't cut it. You have to show Angelian is yours. Likewise, under MMS, J&K is only notionally India's. And as his love-making sessions with war criminal Mush revealed, he is willing to gift it away to TSP.

But please do not fool yourself, there are a large number of people in Kashmir that are anti-India, pro-Pakistan, and pro-Azaadi. It breaks my heart that many Kashmiris are anti India, but they are. We cannot break the country, but we also cannot put all of these people (our citizens) in jail if they call for secession and/or raise the enemy's flag; nor can democratic India beat them into submission the way China does in Tibet or Pakistan in Baluchistan.

Sometimes, hard brutal measures are needed. You have them by their b@lls, hearts and minds follow. All these years of appeasement, and the separatist scum and their followers are thumbing their nose and insulting and humiliating India.

[Airavat]

Addressing the gathering, Capt Yudh Veer Singh, President, PoK Refugee Front, demanded 24 seats for PoK refugees and that too reserved, reservation for their children in education and employment policies. He said that the Government should make a policy for the unemployed PoK refugees’ children for their adjustment in the Government departments and also Backward Class status to them.

Singh further added that the refugees from Chhamb, Deva, Watala, Manawar, Bhimber, Mirpur, Kotli, Baag, Palandari, Poonch and Muzzafarabad were totally neglected in the comprehensive settlement package by the Government. He said that the hapless people were displaced in 1947, 1965 and 1971 wars and their entire property was gifted by the Government of India to Pakistan under Shimla Agreement in 1972.

POJK refugees protest

[ManishH]

Kashmiris were opposing the yatra because BJP is seen as a Hindu party.

BJP is hardly a "hindu" party now. Sure, it may like to call itself so. It was repeatedly invited to join the official cermony in Srinagar, but declined. For all it's tantrum throwing, it won 6 out of 800 seats it contested in 2011 assembly bypolls. That's what the nation thinks of BJP.

BJP itself learnt the lessons and the wiser leaders, remembering the legacy of ABVji, have adopted a bipartisan approach since. Result is no "summer of discontent" this year.

[abhishek_sharma]

BJP is hardly a "hindu" party now. Sure, it may like to call itself so.

I said it is "seen as a Hindu party". Otherwise why don't Muslims vote for it?

It was repeatedly invited to join the official cermony in Srinagar, but declined.

So? I have already mentioned that all groups have the right to organize their own ceremonies in all states. Isn't that good enough?

For all it's tantrum throwing, it won 6 out of 800 seats it contested in 2011 assembly bypolls. That's what the nation thinks of BJP.

In this country, people like Laloo and commies have ruled some states for 15-25 years. "That is what the nation thinks". Congratulations!

BJP itself learnt the lessons and the wiser leaders, ...

I don't think you have psychic powers, so let us not guess what others have learnt and not learnt.

[SSridhar]

Folks, let us remember that Kashmir is far bigger than BJP and INC put together. Partisanship doesn't help.

[Sanku]

Folks, let us remember that Kashmir is far bigger than BJP and INC put together. Partisanship doesn't help.

What if the "root cause" Kashmir is partisanship?

The solution then is to take sides and decide which party are you a part of.

Just a thought.

[SSridhar]

Oh yes. There can be many 'thoughts'. In the end, I shall decide.

[Sanku]

Oh yes. There can be many 'thoughts'. In the end, I shall decide.

Of course.

[eklavya]

This is hot air. Its like a handosme guy like you proclaiming that Angelina Jolie is yours. Just by saying so, doesn't cut it. You have to show Angelian is yours.

Wrong analogy. A person is not a possession that he or she can belong to any other person. A child "belongs" to its parents, but thats about it ...

Likewise, under MMS, J&K is only notionally India's. And as his love-making sessions with war criminal Mush revealed, he is willing to gift it away to TSP.

There you go again with your repeated and unsubstantiated claim about Dr. Manmohan Singh wanting to gift Kashmir to Pakistan.

Please understand that there is no support in India for gifting any territory to Pakistan. Not one square inch of Kargil, Siachen, or any other part of Jammu & Kashmir. India has lost tens of thousands of lives defending Kashmir from Pakistan and its terrorists, and no power on earth can separate J&K from India.

[eklavya]

^^^I am curious! Which "extremist" and "Islamic fundamentalism" -ideologies shoot the messenger and not the message - as a method?

If you try to debate a point with an Islamic fundamentalist (e.g. "Koran does not sanction muder in the name of Islam"), the fundamentalist will say "You are being un-Islamic and insulting the faith and god, and therefore you should be killed"! So, that shuts up the debate pretty fast.

Similarly here, BijuShet is saying "you are a UPA partisan, you are not an Indian patriot, and therefore anything you say about the BJP is irrelevant". BijuShet should address the argument, not attack the person making the argument i.e. not engage in Ad Hominem attacks.

Can we start with the issue of shooting the "BJP" - party/leadership - about the flag-hoisting issue rather than shooting their obvious "message" that J&K under current dispensation behaves like a sovereign independent nation that reserves the final right to decide which Indians can go there to raise the foreign tri-colour and which explicitly also thinks the "Hindu" identity as supposedly represented by the "BJP" as incompatible with its sovereignty?

All state governments in India, not just J&K, have responsibility for maintaining law & order. The Chief Minister of J&K raised the Indian flag on Republic Day, so why are you talking about "sovereign independent nation" and "foreign tri-colour".

Omar Abdullah tried to have the AFSPA repealed and he was told to go and stick it ... so that's that.

[CRamS]

There you go again with your repeated and unsubstantiated claim about Dr. Manmohan Singh wanting to gift Kashmir to Pakistan.

Have you read about the back channel agreement between the war criminal Mush and MMS?

Please understand that there is no support in India for gifting any territory to Pakistan. Not one square inch of Kargil, Siachen, or any other part of Jammu & Kashmir. India has lost tens of thousands of lives defending Kashmir from Pakistan and its terrorists, and no power on earth can separate J&K from India.

With the pathetic state India is, US/TSP is working on India's delusion as a "great power". So, while notionaly sticking to your proclomation above, the current strategy being impemented through MMS is to gift Kashmr valley to TSP in slow motion. Thats what this "borders are irrelevant", "joint soverignty" etc are meant to achieve. And thats why if you see, TSP has cut back on its pigLeT activities in the valley, and MMS has promised not to unilaterally assert Indian soverignty. And thats the reason for him showing his secular machismo against BJP when they wanted t fly the tri color in Srinagar.

[Vikas]

Why discussion on J&K has turned towards discussing BJP. BJP hardly had any role in Kashmir problem nor they have enough supporters in Jammu to force any solution..
I am sure Congress and BJP and NC wants J&K to remain with India,the only difference being extent of autonomy and rule of Kashmir based leadership over whole J&K. I will take a bow when some Non-Kashmiri Non-Muslim becomes CM of J&K.
As far tiranga in Kashmir, it may serve to score few brownie points to unfurl tiranga in deserted streets under the barrel of the gun but then when terrorists throw a challenge, it is for state to show its might and like Dr. Shive would say,"GoI needs to show who carries the biggest gun in India".

[brihaspati]

^^^I am curious! Which "extremist" and "Islamic fundamentalism" -ideologies shoot the messenger and not the message - as a method?

If you try to debate a point with an Islamic fundamentalist (e.g. "Koran does not sanction muder in the name of Islam"), the fundamentalist will say "You are being un-Islamic and insulting the faith and god, and therefore you should be killed"! So, that shuts up the debate pretty fast.

Similarly here, BijuShet is saying "you are a UPA partisan, you are not an Indian patriot, and therefore anything you say about the BJP is irrelevant". BijuShet should address the argument, not attack the person making the argument i.e. not engage in Ad Hominem attacks.

If you look carefully at my question - it was not about what Bijushet does or says. It was about examples of "Islamic fundamentalism" and other "extremist ideologies". In your own stated example, you say that they first "deny" the "claim" of non-sanction for murder in the name of Islam - as being Islamic. This is about shooting the message. "Therefore you should be killed" - is an opinion, not necessarily immediately put into practice. But with your particular example, the problem is that - there is indeed solid quote from the core texts [and remember this religions claim to authenticity is all bout texts?], which requires such challenhes and criticisms to be met with execution. So in that sense they are not saying anything beyond the true version of the "message". That entire example of yours is about shooting the message and not the messenger.

Other "examples" please?

Can we start with the issue of shooting the "BJP" - party/leadership - about the flag-hoisting issue rather than shooting their obvious "message" that J&K under current dispensation behaves like a sovereign independent nation that reserves the final right to decide which Indians can go there to raise the foreign tri-colour and which explicitly also thinks the "Hindu" identity as supposedly represented by the "BJP" as incompatible with its sovereignty?

All state governments in India, not just J&K, have responsibility for maintaining law & order. The Chief Minister of J&K raised the Indian flag on Republic Day, so why are you talking about "sovereign independent nation" and "foreign tri-colour".

Omar Abdullah tried to have the AFSPA repealed and he was told to go and stick it ... so that's that.

Again, for some unknown reason, you miss the point I made. Because of the very nature of the issue - that of raising the flag of the sovereign nation by its citizens, this symbolic act is a crucial test of the reality of how Indian sovereignty is seen there. If a state gov decides which Indian citizens can and cannot raise the national flag on a nationally significant day in their state, it becomes an issue of separate sovereignty.

If further, this is made subject to "law and order" excuses, then it implies that either the rashtra is weak or if it si made subject to religious perceived identity - that the rashtra has deliberately chosen sides on the part of one subset of citizens against another - on an issue where individual citizens have the right to uphold a crucial symbolic aspect of the nation, regardless of whether any group likes it or not.

[ManishH]

vikasji: Even if they don't have a presence in J&K now, expectations are always high on every national issue from BJP - nation may trust national power to BJP in the future.

CramS: I'd give credit to our jawans and officers for reducing infilteration. Why should paki stop infilteration on whatever promises you allege our PM has made ? Why has India been objecting to cheeni activities in PoK if your alleged MMS sellout is in force ? This is pretty baseless scaremongering about our leadership.

[eklavya]

So, while notionaly sticking to your proclomation above, the current strategy being impemented through MMS is to gift Kashmr valley to TSP in slow motion. Thats what this "borders are irrelevant", "joint soverignty" etc are meant to achieve. And thats why if you see, TSP has cut back on its pigLeT activities in the valley, and MMS has promised not to unilaterally assert Indian soverignty. And thats the reason for him showing his secular machismo against BJP when they wanted t fly the tri color in Srinagar.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article572755.eceThe Prime Minister made it clear that India wanted peace and harmony with neighbours but emphasised that progress in dialogue with Islamabad would not go far if Pakistan continued to allow its territory to be used for acts of terrorism against India.Reiterating that Kashmir was an integral part of India, Dr. Singh said the government was ready for talks with every person or group which abjured violence. “Kashmir is an integral part of India. Within this framework, we are ready to move forward in any talks which would increase the partnership of the common man in governance and their welfare.”

He regretted the recent loss of lives in violent incidents in Jammu and Kashmir and said “the years of violence should now end.”

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Jammu-and ... 15533.aspxCongress president Sonia Gandhi on Wednesday said Jammu and Kashmir was an integral part of the country and hoped that the dialogue and policy initiatives announced by the government will end the present unrest in the state. "Jammu and Kashmir has a special place in our polity. It is an integral part of India and peace in this region is of paramount importance. While violence is not a solution and must be contained, the anger manifesting itself among the Kashmiri youth in particular must also be addressed. We must respect their legitimate aspirations," Gandhi said in her letter to the party members in the latest issue of party mouthpiece Sandesh.

Can we please stop the conspiracy theories now.