Indian Military Aviation

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 18 Sep 2011 11:40

shiv wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:"Soon, Rs 2,900cr deal for trainer jets for rookies" ^^^

I am sure there is perfectly good reason but it boggles my mind that after so many years, we can't or won't even produce a basic turboprop trainer.
No Actually I think HAL can produce one - but it gets too much business. It is a single company tasked with producing everything and has no spare capacity. Because it is a PSU it cannot wind down if orders are low and does not maintain spare capacity to rapidly ramp up production or put up a new assembly line. Even the USSR and China at their height of commieness did not produce such behemoths. HAL is a huge monster and we need at least 2 or 3 competing companies to do this work. Unfortunately experise in this line takes decades and I see no near term hope other than the moves made by Mahindra to buy up foreign expertise and maintain offshore production lines.

One particularly bad thing that is how HAL is spending its precious R&D resources on developing aircraft of types that have already ordered(or in the process of being ordered) from foreign manufacturers like the turboprop trainers or the light helos.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 18 Sep 2011 11:47

Ivanev wrote:One question in this regard! Isn't the NAL Hansa supposed to be a basic trainer for flying clubs and IAF possibly. Wiki says the following:

The NAL Hansa is an Indian all-composite low wing tricycle gear two-seater general aviation airplane for flight training as well as personal flying.
It is in production too, so could it be used as a basic trainer for IAF? What are the pros and cons?

The Pilatus PC-7 which was chosen by the IAF for this role is a ~700 hp aircraft compared to the Hansa's 113 hp (from Wiki), so I guess you can imagine how different these aircraft are.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 18 Sep 2011 14:38

Thank you abhik. That answers my question. Actually, the other day, I was going through some articles where the media men had raised a lot of hue and cry over how India was going backwards on innovation and how they aspired to become a superpower without expertise in building a basic trainer and all. The arguments were outright foolish and many people seemed to have bought the argument. But judging by the economic viability, IAF only needs that many number of aircrafts to train personnel and the production line would die down! The flying clubs would want a scaled down one, not sure about the ones to train future fighter pilots. With so limited resources, I am sure it was a sensible decision, criticisms nothwithstanding!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Sep 2011 14:43

to add to Shiv's comment - I am not even talking about costly low volume stuff like PET scanners, but high volume stuff that surely could be made here cheaper if someone wanted to. but we continue to see the labels made in usa or made in germany or japan for such kit.
it took GE India to come up with a portable ultrasonic machine that was cheaper and could be moved around to village health centers than the big table type monolithic unit seen in maternity hospitals.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Sep 2011 16:13

abhik wrote: One particularly bad thing that is how HAL is spending its precious R&D resources on developing aircraft of types that have already ordered(or in the process of being ordered) from foreign manufacturers like the turboprop trainers or the light helos.

There is one more factor that is at play or perhaps two. I had earlier said what Air Marshal Rajkumar told me about his visit to Australia to check out the NM-5 shortly before it flew.

The airworthiness directorate of Australia does not even enter the picture until the plane is ready. In India that body enters the fray early it appears. That is how the Saras was held up for over a year after the crash report was out.

But that apart - even in Australia with a population of 20 million they have small companies that can produce and fly an aircraft double quick. Some of those people live aviation. They way I see Indians devouring books I don't believe we are going to get there anytime soon. The way we train our engineers - Gurucharan Das was perfectly right in saying that Indian engineers prefer to solve conceptual problems rather than working with their hands. And we have the monster PSUs for perpetuating the culture of thinking and pondering upon weighty issues for decades rather than getting on with it and making something.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 18 Sep 2011 16:31

Last Friday evening, I saw two green painted and one grey painted flights. One of the green paint one was Hawk, the other grey painted one being Jaguar. I have a doubt on the other green painted one. Was it a LCA?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Sep 2011 18:11

^^^ yes could be.

Was it this kind of green?

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 18 Sep 2011 19:26

Singha wrote:to add to Shiv's comment - I am not even talking about costly low volume stuff like PET scanners, but high volume stuff that surely could be made here cheaper if someone wanted to. but we continue to see the labels made in usa or made in germany or japan for such kit.
it took GE India to come up with a portable ultrasonic machine that was cheaper and could be moved around to village health centers than the big table type monolithic unit seen in maternity hospitals.

I worked in that GE Project... it is called Vscan...

... and it was not designed in GE India.. India market was the inspiration for that product design...

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 18 Sep 2011 20:30

Sanjay wrote:Jagan, how many MiG-21MF are left ? We see some Ms around but we had 2 sqn of MFs - are they still around ?

Havent really followed the MFs - I know only 34 or so were inducted.. not many would have survived over the years. I would nt be surprised if all have been retired.

No warbirds around either..

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 18 Sep 2011 20:36

Sree wrote:
Jagan wrote: ...

there is no Type 88, only Type 77s (Which is the MiG-21FL) ...
Jagan Garu, as always I hesitate several times before contradicting you on such matters, and apologize in advance; but iirc there was a MiG-21 variant in IAF service which bore the designation Type 88. May have been the first HAL-built MiG-21M (or MF) variant, before standardizing on the Type 96. Not able to check on-line sources now, but I have some vague personal memories of hearing references to the designation; and again iirc it is referred to in Pushpindar Singh's "Aircraft of the Indian Air Force" book.

Regards, and apologies in advance again!!

Duh - Bala wase right. There WAS a Type 88 as per Pushpindar's book - MiG-21 M(F) - sorry for getting it wrong!

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 18 Sep 2011 21:04

Jagan, thanks for that. There was a proposal a decade+ ago to re-engine some of the Ms with the MF engine. Doubt it went anywhere. What would be really interesting is whether the Ms were also compatible with the X-66 missile that equipped the MFs from the 1970s.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 19 Sep 2011 07:20

For first time, IAF deploys its ‘special operations’ aircraft

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 19 Sep 2011 08:02

indranilroy wrote:^^^ yes could be.

Was it this kind of green?
[url=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/T ... 0039_2.JPG[/url]

Yes but it was more bright

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Sep 2011 08:16

symontk wrote:
indranilroy wrote:^^^ yes could be.

Was it this kind of green?
[url=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/T ... 0039_2.JPG[/url]
Yes but it was more bright

Symontk - please state whether it was

1. Jet or prop
2. Delta winged or non delta
3. Swept wings or non swept.

These features aid identification more than the color.

I have seen some Kirans taking of from HAL painted neither in Suryakiran Orange nor the usual silver. I cannot recall if they were green.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 19 Sep 2011 12:40

1. Jet or prop
2. Delta winged or non delta
3. Swept wings or non swept.

These features aid identification more than the color.

It was jet with delta winged, seemed like LCA trainer or could be the navy one. It was not Kirans anyway

koti · Post by **koti** » 19 Sep 2011 14:51

shiv wrote:I have seen some Kirans taking of from HAL painted neither in Suryakiran Orange nor the usual silver. I cannot recall if they were green.

I remember seeing a few painted in Navy blue too.

Anyway if it is green(or cream) it only means a newly built AC. And it can only be an LCA variant(Since also a delta).
I am however am more interested in the Kiran. He could me mistaken about that. It could very well be a Sitara...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Sep 2011 15:55

symontk wrote:
1. Jet or prop
2. Delta winged or non delta
3. Swept wings or non swept.

These features aid identification more than the color.
It was jet with delta winged, seemed like LCA trainer or could be the navy one. It was not Kirans anyway

Delta wing could only have been LCA. Are you sure you were not viewing a yellow LCA via some tinted glass? The navy one has not flown yet. At least no flight has been announced and I doubt if they will fail to announce. The board outside the city railway station says "Bangalore" , not "Chengdu"

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 19 Sep 2011 18:25

Delta wing could only have been LCA. Are you sure you were not viewing a yellow LCA via some tinted glass? The navy one has not flown yet. At least no flight has been announced and I doubt if they will fail to announce. The board outside the city railway station says "Bangalore" , not "Chengdu"

I distinctively saw enough canopy for two pilots, i was taking a U-turn near Marathahalli and this fellow quickly turned over the ORR and landed in HAL airport. It has to be LCA, but may be I was dreaming

member_19626 · Post by **member_19626** » 19 Sep 2011 18:51

C-130J to be a part of the North-east relief operation after the Sikkim quake..

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=15386

wig · Post by **wig** » 20 Sep 2011 09:19

Rs 3-cr flares for IAF jets turn useless ,Their shelf-life expires after delay in project to upgrade MiG-21

Infra-red flares worth over Rs 3 crore procured for IAF fighter aircraft were rendered useless as their shelf life expired while still in storage on account of slow pace of the project to upgrade MiG-21 Bison.

The issue has also revealed contradictory reasons forwarded by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and the Air Headquarters over the IAF’s inability to utilise the flares that were procured from overseas between 1997 and 2002.

In January this year, the IAF accepted that 19,450 flares were destroyed after expiry of their shelf life due to delays in the project. The Air HQs also suggested life-extension clearance on some of the flares still in its inventory.

The MoD stand, on the other hand was that the holding of the flares was necessary due to the prevailing security scenario. Further, the ministry maintained that flares were kept in stock and not released to combat units, as their operational requirement did not arise till 2009.

Of the 20,000 flares procured, only 390 were used during the design and development phase of the Bison and subsequent trials and testing. The remaining were rendered useless in 2009.

In March 1996, the MoD had concluded a contract for procurement of a Counter Measure Dispensing System (CMDS) that protects aircraft against radar-guided and heat-seeking missiles. The flares form a part of this system and are used to deflect heat-seeking missiles.

The requirement and procurement of the system was projected and undertaken in consonance with the upgrade of 125 Bison aircraft that was originally scheduled to begin in 1998 and conclude in 2001.

Additional requirement was projected for installing the CMDS on the MiG-23 as well as the MiG-27 aircraft.

It was initially planned to utilise the entire stock of the flares by 2002. The project, however, progressed slowly due to delay in the indigenous development of certain avionic systems and flight testing. The upgrade was finally complete in 2008.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110920/nation.htm#9

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Sep 2011 11:15

eqpt does have a shelf life and number of times it can fly. all the stock of 1000s of AA10, R60 and AA12 missiles we have for instance will at various points expire and need to be thrown away or max some parts used as spares. 1000s of crores of "loss" here for stuff that was never fired...but thats what deterrence and capability is all about.

there is no kit with indefinite shelf life, even n-weapons.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 20 Sep 2011 11:20

^^^ But we can spend it on training near the end of their shelf life. Albeit not the nuclear ones

.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Sep 2011 11:22

>> Albeit not the nuclear ones

not inside our borders you mean.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Sep 2011 12:20

things like flares that are approaching end of shelf life should be given out to squadrons for 'diwali' purposes
better than having them rot and be thrown away

vcsekhar · Post by **vcsekhar** » 20 Sep 2011 12:49

indranilroy wrote:^^^ But we can spend it on training near the end of their shelf life. Albeit not the nuclear ones .

In fact they are used for live fire testing by all the squadrons. For example at exercises like Vayu Shakti most of the missiles, GBU's, Rockets etc used were ones that were near their expiry dates.
But, the way this article is worded is completely stupid, flares are essential life saving equipment that is required in war time operations, but, they do have a shelf life and they will expire. So if they expire was it a waste of money to buy them? In a way it is good that they were not used as we did not have a war!!!

In fact this is the same for all fire extinguishers, they expire every 12 months and need to be refilled so was it a waste of money to buy them and not use them? In my company when we had a fire safety audit the auditor told us that every year when the extinguishers need to be refilled use them for training and let more operators have a feel of using them. What we found when we did this was that it was more difficult to use these things (than people thought) and a few of them did not work even though they were a week away from expiry.
So take these type of articles with a pinch of salt.

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 20 Sep 2011 15:42

^^^^^^^^^^^
What the article is pointing out, is that as a result of the delay in upgrade programs, flares which were ordered as per the expected schedule (and probably arrived as per expected schedule), could not be used.

Learning- order flares later (Just In Time) so that they can be used as per the requirements (being stored for war use is also a valid usage). Its a scheduling issue.

vivekmehta · Post by **vivekmehta** » 20 Sep 2011 17:01

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=15413
Indian air force to buy 15 Saras twin turboprops as trainers

though this is a excellent news but i am bit Sceptical using it as a trainer . it may become a good replacement for AVROs or Dornier . which eventually it will become .

but don't trainers need to be specially designed to be more aero dynamically tolerant and also for a trainer its interface should be such that it can adapt it different type of aircraft. Like to mimic some characteristics of target aircraft.

to introduce first batch as trainers .don't you its too risky?

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 20 Sep 2011 18:08

Singha wrote:eqpt does have a shelf life and number of times it can fly. all the stock of 1000s of AA10, R60 and AA12 missiles we have for instance will at various points expire and need to be thrown away or max some parts used as spares. 1000s of crores of "loss" here for stuff that was never fired...but thats what deterrence and capability is all about.

there is no kit with indefinite shelf life, even n-weapons.

so true.. people forget peace and stability has price too...!!! in this case though I believe the issue is not having them in operation usage.. ready to be used.. its like buying 100's public buses without having roads to ply them

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 20 Sep 2011 20:22

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:OT - but if you are a doctor it would be visible there are many very basic medical eqpt things the country does not produce yet. even things like certain types of bandages are imported. as for medical diagnostic eqpt and machinery, again high import content or fully imported.
In fact I see this as a failure of Indian innovation and engineering. There are medical staplers which are supposedly disposable which cost 25000 single use. Hospitals and doctors cut corners and resterilize used staplers to get costs down to 5000 or so. But still - after 25 years no one in India has attempted to design one or even copy it. Or even promote and use a reuseable Russian one. This is a national issue that goes far beyond HAL.

Saar.. aren't you being a little harsh on engineers here... there are skin staplers manufactured by Indian companies... but the problem is acceptability ... For piles staplers the problem is procedural change..I mean for stapled haemorrhoidopexy by the "longo technique" we use the instrument manufactured by j & j . you are aware that "special training" is needed to use that product .. (which was initially imparted in exotic european destinations as you might remember).. Since MIPH technique is still patented a different manufacturer would need to change the procedure a bit.. No one wants to risk that..LIKE in everything else you do have cheap china rip-offs in this as well .. but using these is reserved onlee for pakee patients..

Similarly for suture's we do have Indian manufacturers of Polyglycolic acid or PDS sutures who manufacturer USP standard products... But most surgeons would never give up ethilon products..I mean its become so accepted that "vicryl" is even mentioned in textbooks even though it is a trademark ..
common saar...you your self must be using ethilon vicryl onlee and not the one manufactured by sutures India or other companies..

I mean give em a break .. India has been been independent only for 21 year ... (I mean economically)... And we have done well for that..

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Sep 2011 20:36

Rahul M wrote:>> Albeit not the nuclear ones

not inside our borders you mean.

Then why not outside our borders ?

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Sep 2011 20:44

vcsekhar wrote:
indranilroy wrote:^^^ But we can spend it on training near the end of their shelf life. Albeit not the nuclear ones .
In fact they are used for live fire testing by all the squadrons. For example at exercises like Vayu Shakti most of the missiles, GBU's, Rockets etc used were ones that were near their expiry dates.
But, the way this article is worded is completely stupid, flares are essential life saving equipment that is required in war time operations, but, they do have a shelf life and they will expire. So if they expire was it a waste of money to buy them? In a way it is good that they were not used as we did not have a war!!!

In fact this is the same for all fire extinguishers, they expire every 12 months and need to be refilled so was it a waste of money to buy them and not use them? In my company when we had a fire safety audit the auditor told us that every year when the extinguishers need to be refilled use them for training and let more operators have a feel of using them. What we found when we did this was that it was more difficult to use these things (than people thought) and a few of them did not work even though they were a week away from expiry.
So take these type of articles with a pinch of salt.

By this logic all money spent on insurance premiums is a waste.

If you buy a train/bus ticket and there is no Ticket Collector to check then that money is also a waste

The GOI must stop this wastage; stop all insurance premiums for all MoD babus.

K

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 20 Sep 2011 20:53

Kersi D wrote:
By this logic all money spent on insurance premiums is a waste.

If you buy a train/bus ticket and there is no Ticket Collector to check then that money is also a waste

The GOI must stop this wastage; stop all insurance premiums for all MoD babus.

K

it is not the same logic.. unfortunately.. ..

how about you are paying insurance premium and your risk is not getting protected..?
The flares were not on board the aircraft.. they were in a warehouse... how is that going help in a situation?

as someone pointed out it is a scheduling issue..

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 20 Sep 2011 22:39

3004 SQUADRON, AF

3004 Sqn was formed on the 20 Sep 2004 at Nalia with the designated task of carrying out intelligence through surveillance and Reconnaissance within the Kutch sector. In the course of its duties the squadron has been a source of real time imagery and intelligence of incursions into the Indian Territory which has been instrumental in countering and checking infiltrations. The sqn has assisted the Indian Army, Navy, Coast Guard and BSF in various missions. The squadron has also successfully flown a single continuous mission of 34 hours duration, a record with no parallel till date.

For its sustained good performance along the Line of Control in checking and preventing infiltration and related enemy actions thereby bringing laurels to the IAF Number 3004 Squadron is awarded the citation by Chief of Air Staff.

For achievements in operational roles, 3004 Squadron is awarded the Citation by Chief of Air Staff.

Why does a Nalia based Squadron provide ISTAR support till LoC or does the article mean the IB? This is a citation so should not be wrong.

Anyways, the boys on the ground need all the help they can get.

Link: http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=66244

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Sep 2011 23:09

^^^Which UAV can fly for 34hrs?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Sep 2011 23:28

^^ Heron http://www.iai.co.il/18900-16382-en/Bus ... aspx?btl=1

Endurance:> 40 hr

Its length and wingspan is in the range of Tejas Mk2

@Vaibhav - It was formed at Naliya but that doesnt imply it is based there all the time. Detachments or the whole squadron may deploy to FB close to LOC.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 21 Sep 2011 02:48

Indian report slams military aerostat use

India's Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has criticised the nation's air force for failing to keep two Israeli-supplied aerostat-based radars in operational condition. The equipment was acquired for a combined total of Indian rupee (Rs) 676 million ($14 million).

One of the systems was damaged in 2009, while deployed on India's western border, after air force personnel failed to properly monitor forecast weather conditions. The damaged sensor is unlikely to be available for another two years.

Meanwhile, the fabric on the other aerostat has started decaying, leading to the leakage of excessive amounts of helium.

The CAG said the service's failure to sign a deal with Israel-based Rafael to fix the problem led to it spending an extra Rs10 million per year on gas supplies.

"The case shows improper planning and an unprofessional approach on the part of the Indian air force, for optimal utilisation of a system that was procured at a huge cost," the CAG said.

chandanus · Post by **chandanus** » 21 Sep 2011 20:59

Hi Vats ....i have posted smething for you in the recruitment thread ...as it seems more relevant there ..

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Sep 2011 12:50

US wants to honour Indian Air force Pilots for rescue of an American

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Sep 2011 14:32

Any idea which Helicopter that did the rescue

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 22 Sep 2011 15:07

Aditya_V wrote:Any idea which Helicopter that did the rescue

It was an IAF Cheetah (Alouette II) helicopter.