Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24154
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby SSridhar » 21 Sep 2011 11:25

ToI reports PRC building a fast-attack craft for PN.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 21 Sep 2011 12:04

could be those catamaran craft with inclined missile tubes.
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/littoral/type022.asp

they have built a lot of these ships and could hand over some immediately for training use.
its a innovative design fitting 8 YJ83 supersonic ASMs on a ship just 40m in size
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/littora ... 3large.jpg

suits the PN perfectly - relatively cheap to buy and operate, small footprint, less RCS , less crew, low draft, 36 knot top speed packs a good punch for sneak hit and run missile attacks and can be purchased in quantity to act as a coastal defence deterrent against much bigger ships emerging from even small creeks and harbours.

I guess the PN has realized its funding situation will not permit it to remotely match the INs deep water ships and long range strike power. so they are focussing resources on coastal defence now with only SSKs moving forward for sea denial and counterstrike...kind of like a bigger and uglier north korea.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 21 Sep 2011 18:29

Singha wrote:could be those catamaran craft with inclined missile tubes.
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/littoral/type022.asp

they have built a lot of these ships and could hand over some immediately for training use.
its a innovative design fitting 8 YJ83 supersonic ASMs on a ship just 40m in size
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/littora ... 3large.jpg


What would the range of these 220 ton ships be? 1500 km? That would put their offshore patrol radius as about 500 km from say Karachi. Technically - to cover every inch of coast with 200 km range antiship missiles the Pakis would need about 6 of them on 24x7 patrol. At 20 knots, 30 kmph and a range of 1500 km they each boat would take could perhaps stay on patrol for 12 to 18 hours before needing to turn back be refuelled. Just a guess - I am not very knowledgeable about these things.

These are littoral brown water boats that pack a punch. They need to be taken out by air assets or by a Brahmos if they get within 250 km of an Indian ship. Better still - take out Karachi so they can't refuel there after the first 24 hours.

Yogi_G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2400
Joined: 21 Nov 2008 04:10
Location: Punya Bhoomi -- Jambu Dweepam

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Yogi_G » 21 Sep 2011 19:01

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:could be those catamaran craft with inclined missile tubes.
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/littoral/type022.asp

they have built a lot of these ships and could hand over some immediately for training use.
its a innovative design fitting 8 YJ83 supersonic ASMs on a ship just 40m in size
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/littora ... 3large.jpg


What would the range of these 220 ton ships be? 1500 km? That would put their offshore patrol radius as about 500 km from say Karachi. Technically - to cover every inch of coast with 200 km range antiship missiles the Pakis would need about 6 of them on 24x7 patrol. At 20 knots, 30 kmph and a range of 1500 km they each boat would take could perhaps stay on patrol for 12 to 18 hours before needing to turn back be refuelled. Just a guess - I am not very knowledgeable about these things.

These are littoral brown water boats that pack a punch. They need to be taken out by air assets or by a Brahmos if they get within 250 km of an Indian ship. Better still - take out Karachi so they can't refuel there after the first 24 hours.


Replenishment tankers are a good option for them.

They recently received tanker replenishment ships and have on order larger ships of this kind. That way port visits to Karachi will be lessened.

arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 21 Sep 2011 21:35

X Posted excerpts from the September 20, 2011 US Department of Defense (DOD) News Briefing with Secretary Panetta and Adm. Mullen from the Pentagon dealing with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s links, particularly those of the ISI / ISID, to Islamic Terrorists:

Q: After the series of attacks in Kabul, is there any greater U.S. willingness to take unilateral action against the Haqqanis across the border in Pakistan? And if not, what can you do about it?

SEC. PANETTA: Well, I made the point, and I think Mike Mullen has made the same point, that, look, we are going to take whatever steps are necessary to protect our forces. With -- and I’m not going to talk about, you know, particular strategies to, in fact, implement that commitment.

But our biggest concern right now is to put as much pressure as possible on the Pakistanis to exercise control from their side of the border. We’ve continued to state that this cannot happen. We cannot have the Haqqanis coming across the border, attacking our forces, attacking Afghanistan -- Afghanistanis and then disappearing back into a safe haven. That is not tolerable.

And we have urged them to take steps. Mike Mullen met with General Kayani recently to urge that same point. And we’ll continue to do that. I think they’re -- I think they’ve heard the message, but we’ll see.


Q: To go back to -- on the Haqqani, you know, Mr. Secretary, you said that think that the Pakistanis have heard your pleas about what needs to be done inside their borders, and that, Mr. Chairman, you met with Kayani. We’ve heard that for several years now, that we think they’ve heard us, but we want them to do more, and you’ve kept meeting with the general over and over again. Have you been wrong in this strategy of not having a harder fist with them, taking a tougher stand? Is there something else that could have been done that would have made -- have changed this narrative, after all this time?

ADM. MULLEN: I think the substance of the meeting just the other day, as well as the vast majority of meetings that I’ve had with General Kayani, have been to work towards a way that we can sustain the relationship. It’s going to go up and down. We’ve had a very tough patch here over the last several months.

I just -- I would want to reassure you that I addressed this issue very strongly with General Kayani the other night, last Friday night, when I met with him. It was the heart of the discussion, that the Haqqani -- the proxy connection to the ISI, the Haqqanis working across border, killing our people, killing Afghans, has to stop.

That’s not a new message, but it’s one that he clearly understands, and I think it’s one we have to keep reiterating.

All of that said, I think the strength of having met with him so many times is that we have sustained a relationship, you know, when things are going better as well as when things are not going well. And recently they haven’t gone well, but we’ve been able to sustain that and start to move it again in a more positive direction. But the clarity with which I addressed this issue, there just -- there can be no question and no doubt.

SEC. PANETTA: The approach has to be for Pakistan to continue to put pressure on them -- continue to put pressure on them. That’s what we’ve been doing over the last few years. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t work. But the fact is that the most important thing we can do is keep the pressure on. Obviously, they cooperate with us in some areas. There are other areas where we have disagreements.

Very frankly, terrorism is as much a threat for them as it is for us. And we keep telling them, you can’t choose among terrorists. If you’re -- if you’re against terrorism, you have to be against all forms of terrorism. And that’s something we just have to continue to stress.


Read it all:

US DOD Transcript

anand_sankar
BRFite
Posts: 162
Joined: 09 Jan 2009 19:24

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby anand_sankar » 22 Sep 2011 20:02

A sweet little nugget from a BBC news report -

"On a lighter note, the preoccupation with American activities in Pakistan has meant that Indians - traditionally the most watched nationals - are having an easier time of it.

An Indian posted in Islamabad recently joked that the intelligence agencies do not follow them nearly as rigorously as they used to."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14790457

eklavya
BRFite
Posts: 1869
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby eklavya » 22 Sep 2011 22:43

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15026909
US Admiral: 'Haqqani is veritable arm of Pakistan's ISI'

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shrinivasan » 22 Sep 2011 23:31

eklavya wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15026909
US Admiral: 'Haqqani is veritable arm of Pakistan's ISI'
Admiral Mullen was the best friend of the Pukes till recently, even he seems to be turning over a new leaf... or is it his last hurrah before hanging up his boots.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3222
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 22 Sep 2011 23:33

shiv wrote:What would the range of these 220 ton ships be? 1500 km?
Less. a 480 ton Type 1241 has a range of 1650, so this baby would have approx 800-900 km.
shiv wrote:These are littoral brown water boats that pack a punch. They need to be taken out by air assets or by a Brahmos
These are fast boats, so engines generate heat that can be picked by IR sensors. HeliNag and Hellfire missiles outranging shoulder fired SAMs are the best and cheapest bet. Navalized Rudra or Hellfire armed MH-60R. Brahmos is overkill.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19684
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Karan M » 23 Sep 2011 01:47

I have always found the Pakistani military's policy to be exactly equal to their Kargil misadventure. Short term tactical gains, while compounding and adding to strategic idiocy of the highest order.

Over the past decade, the Pakistani military geniuses, being the strategic imbeciles that they are squandered huge inflows of US funds to add all sorts of tactical capability to their armed forces. They added fighters, A2A WVR and BVR missiles, PG munitions, Harris radios, APCs, M109 SPHs, Phalanx CIWS, radars - basically retooled their entire military. At the same time, they did everything possible to attack the US and ISAF in Afghanistan, without even considering the US may finally wise upto their antics. Rest of money went into "strategic forces".

Not only did they spend US funds, but even their own. While their economy kept going downhill.

Now, the US may even impose sanctions on spares or tie them to hard targets, impacting serviceability. All those huge weapons acquisitions are a trojan horse. To sustain them, the Pakistanis have to kill their own networks and own people.

If these bunch of clowns, had actually taken that money and invested in their economy, held off on terror for a while, they would have had an economy able to buy their own weapons and even sustain a strategic force. Today, they face disaster and may have to rob rehman to pay abdul.

The idiocy of the Pakistanis never fails to impress.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 23 Sep 2011 06:30

imo not all these ships need to be on patrol. P3 Orions when they detect a potential hostile could alert the nearest boats which would rush to the scene at top speed, unleash ASMs based on cue from the P3 search radar and head back to safety. the ASMs terminal guidance and high transit speed would be expected to acquire some target. perhaps to improve the Pk they might even fire the missiles into a grid box rather than all onto the current contact. that way even if the ships change course on suspecting a missile attack, some or all might still be picked up by the ASMs.

in calm seas these might even be able to stop engines and sit silently with no emissions say 300km out and thus shorten the transit time to any hostile target. their diesel engines at low throttle would be ok for slow cruising, leaving the waterjets for combat use.

PLAN is building a lot of these boats and no doubt if the Pakis get a good number they will get the idea of refitting them as Babur carriers or other land attack missiles and launch sneak attacks on coastal targets in the Gujarat and MH coasts - things like refineries and power plants present easy high-RCS targets.

unless someone has comprehensive surveillance its hard to detect such boats because their RCS would likely be same as the 100s of small fishing vessels and coastal trading vessels in the region and having gunship helicopters on call means a chain of coastal bases or a couple of LPHs patrolling the area with P8I support. they could even hide among fishing fleets to escape detection until too late.

arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 23 Sep 2011 07:11

eklavya wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15026909
US Admiral: 'Haqqani is veritable arm of Pakistan's ISI'


X Posting more from ISI History and Discussions thread on the Chairman of the US Military’s Joint Chiefs of Staff, on the topic of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s intelligence agency supporting Islamic Terrorists in testimony before the US Senate Armed Forces Committtee:

Pakistan’s Spy Agency Is Tied to Attack on U.S. Embassy

By ELISABETH BUMILLER and JANE PERLEZ ……………………..

Published: September 22, 2011 “With ISI support, Haqqani operatives planned and conducted that truck bomb attack, as well as the assault on our embassy,” Admiral Mullen said in a hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee. “We also have credible evidence that they were behind the June 28th attack against the Intercontinental Hotel in Kabul and a host of other smaller but effective operations.”

In short, he said, “the Haqqani network acts as a veritable arm of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence agency.”


Despite the angst ridden comment by Admiral Mullen, expect yet more of the same with regard to relations between the US and the Islamic Republic of Pakistan with the US dhimmifully continuing liberally paying Jaziya to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan :lol: :

“Some may argue I’ve wasted my time, that Pakistan is no closer to us than before, and may now have drifted even further away. I disagree. Military cooperation again is warming.”


Read it all :

Hew York Times

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 672
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Y I Patel » 23 Sep 2011 09:10

How heavily does PA use Pak Rail to transport troops and equipment?

Presumably trains are easier targets - there were reports of bombs planted on trains moving IA divs from NE to Kargil. How come one never reads of such incidents with PA movements?

As far as Cold Start goes, please note that the current crisis in PR is another important datum. If PR is in such a sorry state, how will PA troops heavily engaged in the west be able to swing back east? It used to be that PA was already Cold Start compliant. No longer!

Eastern Gate is wide open. Taller friend needs to come in ASAP to retrieve the situation and protect investment!

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 23 Sep 2011 10:31

we have seen pix of paki tanks on trains moving during op parakram timeframe. its the cheapest and easiest way to move heavy armour and artillery over longish distances.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17036
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Rahul M » 23 Sep 2011 10:53

YIP, most of their forces are forward deployed anyway. the punjab area also has very good road infra.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 23 Sep 2011 19:38

I don't think Pakistan has deployed much by way of heavy armor in the west. I am sure its all sitting here in the east.

In any case Pakistan hardly has any rail lines in the west and most run north south in the east
Image

manum
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Location: still settling...
Contact:

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby manum » 23 Sep 2011 20:22

^^ Why they have kept Balochistan almost disconnected? as I understand through map :?:

manum
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Location: still settling...
Contact:

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby manum » 23 Sep 2011 21:32

Wow If Balochistan could break from Pakistan...the whole relevance of Pakistan would end, as all the supplies from Afghanistan and Iran to and fro could have been taken cared off through land route and then through Arabian sea...Its a great way to help Baloch's gain the independence, it'll open our old seamless trade route to Iran and Afghanistan...

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Sep 2011 21:59

look at the geography of baluchistan and you'll get a better feeling for rail and road links

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shrinivasan » 23 Sep 2011 22:14

^^^ Forget Balochistan, even's Sind's Rail infra is very poor. Also, if few railroads are taken out at strategic points (bridges and junctions) apart from jamming the signalling and switching infra, the whole rail network would become a sitting duck bottling up vital supplies and reinforcements on railcars and siding. These in-turn are juicy target for Brahmos and its siblings...

manum
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Location: still settling...
Contact:

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby manum » 23 Sep 2011 23:10

Lalmohan wrote:look at the geography of baluchistan and you'll get a better feeling for rail and road links


Yeah its a tough terrain.

Now I exactly understand the relevance of Pakistan...They present the most economical access to Afghanistan and common sense lies in keeping them in list of friends for USA...

Image

Image

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 24 Sep 2011 06:02

manum wrote:^^ Why they have kept Balochistan almost disconnected? as I understand through map :?:


Simple. The British built railways to suit their military campaigns and their lifestyles. Hence railways to hill stations. It was up to independent Pakistan and India to expand that network. Pakistan never did that and for at least 40 years have convinced themselves that they are an industrial/technological hyperpower. They are so good at lying to themselves and others that lots of people have actually believed the trash that was put out about Pakistan.

The average educated Pakistani really thinks that Pakistan is an industrial and technological giant. They don't even make railway engines.

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 672
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Y I Patel » 24 Sep 2011 08:43

Pakistani holding corps are deployed close to the border along short lines of communication, but there is no way they can hold back the power of massed IA strike corps. For that, they need their reserve formations. In fact, for Parakram, they even needed units from 11 corps which was the sole corps deployed on the west at that time. Parakram was a game changer - at that time, IA demonstrated that they could move as many as five full strength divs from the NE to Kashmir and Northern Punjab. This allowed IA 1 strike corps to move southwards from its traditional area of deployment, and IA showed a Rudra Swarup of three strike corps massed in unison. To face such a monster all reserves of PA would need to be thrown in to contain the breach, if that. What a fall from their heydays in the mid-90s, when there was grand theorizing about offensive defense and riposte!

That should give us a sense of just what kind of reserves they would need, even in optimum geopolitical conditions.

Currently, besides 11 corps being fully committed, vital units from their 2 corps and ARN formations are now heavily engaged. Even if predominantly infantry units have been moved, this is a big weakening of their defensive posture. In fact, as Egypt showed during 1973, properly equipped and protected infantry is a huge threat to armoured formations. Which is why IA armoured units will need heavy infantry support, especially to protect the lengthening shaft as the armoured corps charge towards the Sindhu. Now, PA cupboard is empty. Even if the westward deployed units are withdrawn at outbreak of hostilities, IAF is not going to be swatting flies. The strategically vital Pakjab-Sindh junction all the way to Sindhu is totally vulnerable to a Sherman like death march by the strike corps, should IA pivot corps break down the flimsy front door. Of course, to do so at this juncture would be an act of monumental stupidity on India's part, so I am not advocating any such action.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8286
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Pratyush » 24 Sep 2011 10:41

YIP,

Great post as usual, but I disagree on one key aspect. The IAF will be indeed be busy swatting flies. But those flies will be the TSPA detachments on the ground.

aditya.agd
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 28 Apr 2010 00:37

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby aditya.agd » 27 Sep 2011 19:46

If Chi-Pak alliance fights together against India in Northern Kashmir then that is a game changer in Pakistan's favour. IA IMHO should focus on dis-emboweling them by cutting off Baluch and declaring it as an independent state.

Also we should recognize that Tibet is an independent country.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 27 Sep 2011 19:58

aditya.agd wrote:If Chi-Pak alliance fights together against India in Northern Kashmir then that is a game changer in Pakistan's favour.


Er could you go beyond empty statements of opinion and spend a little time on the force levels the Cheenis have to bring in and the logistics for that, as well as the logistic lines they must maintain? I think you are making the statement after putting exactly 0.2 seconds thought before typing it out.

You see if India has to get thrashed in the west we need the Chinese to increase Pakistani force levels by at least a factor of 50 to 100%. Now how about spending more than a few milliseconds on figuring out some details. Minus that I put it to you that what you have written is rubbish.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7734
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby rohitvats » 27 Sep 2011 20:38

Y I Patel wrote:Pakistani holding corps are deployed close to the border along short lines of communication, but there is no way they can hold back the power of massed IA strike corps. For that, they need their reserve formations. In fact, for Parakram, they even needed units from 11 corps which was the sole corps deployed on the west at that time. Parakram was a game changer - at that time, IA demonstrated that they could move as many as five full strength divs from the NE to Kashmir and Northern Punjab. This allowed IA 1 strike corps to move southwards from its traditional area of deployment, and IA showed a Rudra Swarup of three strike corps massed in unison. To face such a monster all reserves of PA would need to be thrown in to contain the breach, if that. What a fall from their heydays in the mid-90s, when there was grand theorizing about offensive defense and riposte!

That should give us a sense of just what kind of reserves they would need, even in optimum geopolitical conditions.

<SNIP>


Actually, PA did move forward their reserve - ARS to man the defenses along with V Corps and I think, XII Corps. But it seems, elements (one division) from XII Corps went North. So, the Rudra avatar had the intended consequence.

However, now what PA has done is that it has raised Corps Reserve (euphemism for armored division) for both, XXXI Corps and V Corps. These are referred to as 26th and 25th Mechanized Divisions, respectively. Now, the jury is out on the exact composition of the same as well as efficacy. There were two course of action - one, to amalgamate the (I) Mech/Armored Bdes under a Division HQ and another, to raise fresh formation.

If the path followed was former, then there is not net increase in number of tanks/APC but, there is going to be net increase in terms of capability. This is because getting hold of tanks/APCs is just one part, getting them organic support assets is another. PA could have used the funds from being "All-Lie" of Uncle to provide these assets - I distinctly remember the GoC of one of these "Mechanized Divisions" taking the delivery of fresh M109s (regiment worth) which had landed in Karachi.

Another route could have been to not retire old assets once new were inducted and raise these formation. For example, when PA got Al-Khalid, rather than retire old T-59/Upgraded version, these could have been used to raise new formations. Also, PA as shopping around for getting hold of second hand M113. These could be for these formations along with mechanization of running mates of Armored Divisions. This would represent net increment in numbers of Tanks and APC.

Boreas
BRFite
Posts: 315
Joined: 23 Jan 2011 11:24

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Boreas » 01 Oct 2011 22:58

http://tech.mit.edu/V131/N41/pakistan.html

Opinion: Turning to the Haqqanis, Pakistan has made its choice
By Keith Yost
...
...
In the long run, the U.S. playbook on Pakistan should grow to resemble that of India’s. The way to neuter an enemy is to carve them up into multiple states — such was Germany’s treatment by the allies after World War II, as well as the Soviet Union’s fate after its fall. India has already cut Pakistan in half, dividing it between modern Pakistan and Bangladesh. It seeks to do so again, exploiting the ethnic fault lines in Pakistani society to carve it up even further. With its parting shots in Afghanistan, the U.S. should use its military might to aid in this strategy. In its least extreme form, this strategy might merely ensure that Baloch-dominated provinces within Afghanistan retain a high degree of autonomy from the Afghan federal government. In its most extreme form, the U.S. could funnel arms to Baloch nationalists in southern Pakistan or take direct action in support of a free Balochistan. Where the U.S. should fall on this spectrum of policy choices is open to debate — what must be avoided is the naive optimism that Pakistan will have a Damascene moment and suddenly become the ally that the U.S. requires. Now is the time to restructure Afghanistan in the way that makes Pakistan weakest, not to dither in a nonexistent middle ground.

Any takers for that?

Fact is I hear more and more Indian analysts saying that unkil and porkis will eventually call a truce. That they need each other.

And I hear more and more unkil sponsred analysts saying that the time has come. Everbody seems to be suggesting some action. From cutting aid to bombing the porkiland.

May be nothing fancy is going to happen for now. But even the weakest of the thoughts have potential to develop into strongest of ideas. And the thought of porkis being no more there bestis is definitely in the unkils mind.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 02 Oct 2011 06:26

a strong coalition of presidential advisers like cia chief, nsa, secy of state, leading think tankers, vp, jt chief can swing the POTUS in any direction if they reach a consensus that a policy change is needed.
so any idea can happen but a majority of power players in GOTUS need to buy it.

Thomas Kolarek
BRFite
Posts: 179
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 08:10

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Thomas Kolarek » 02 Oct 2011 10:17

Pakistan never backed Haqqani network: spy chief
Looks like Pak is washing off hands with Haqqani network. US strategy worked. :rotfl:

ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby ArmenT » 02 Oct 2011 10:31

Thomas Kolarek wrote:Pakistan never backed Haqqani network: spy chief
Looks like Pak is washing off hands with Haqqani network. US strategy worked. :rotfl:

Not necessarily. It is SOP for the Pakis to say one thing and do the complete opposite in the background. They also claim that Osama Bin Laden and Dawood Ibrahim were never in Pakistan. This is just a lame attempt at saving H&D.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Oct 2011 11:56

Rahul_M, can you update us to what the Paki helicopter fleet strength is continuing the discussion from the Indian Miltary aviation thread. You said the Wiki numbers of 400 are unreliable.

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Vipul » 08 Oct 2011 21:53

All the figures in Wiki giving figure of 200-400 helicopters in pakistan are very much for protecting the non-existing H&D onlee.
Infact it faced shortage of Helicopters for carrying out rescue operations during the earthquake sometime back and had even begged for helis from India. :mrgreen:
Clicky

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17036
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Rahul M » 08 Oct 2011 22:12

Bala Vignesh wrote:RahulM da,
Most, if not all, of the helicopters operated by the IA are light helicopters, smostly chetaks and chetaks or thier variants, where as the PA operates medium heli's too.
Hence wouldn't they have an edge over the IA

boss, PA and IA are not going to fight a duel while others arms watch from the sidelines. in India's case the responsibility of helicopters lies primarily with the IAF, IA AAC is responsible for utility, air observation and cas-evac roles.
if you have to be compare then the whole gamut of capabilities on both sides will have to be taken into consideration. an IA vs PA comparison might be technically ok but means very little.

bhavani wrote:Rahul Sir,

Recently i was counting the number of choppers in PA and IA. PA operates quite a bit number of Mi-17, SA-330 Puma, Bell 412 and UH-1. The total is around 400

It also fielded the Mi-17 upgraded version before us. They were purchased by Unkle and given to Pakis in flowers.

well the pakis can't afford to buy things in bulk and hence have to buy a couple from here, get half a dozen as alms from there and so on.
the number of Mi-17 is 24 in all, there was talk of US overhauling another 10 for its munna but that hasn't gone through yet AFAIK. they had a few Mi-8's, all very old and no more than 4-5 survive, if that.
the numbers of puma, bell 412, UH-1 are equally small.
the problem with estimating paki numbers is that true to their penchant for lahori logic and shanghai statistics, no one has bothered to put the numbers in one place, not even the numerous paki websites.

nevertheless, let's have a stab at the numbers
flightglobal :
Image
Total : 225 including 30 future acquisitions.
I have strong doubts about the UH-1 numbers, more reliable sources mention 5, not 30.
globalsecurity :
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... rcraft.htm
Total : 199

possibly the most reliable but slightly dated (from 2006) :
inventory of pakistani airlines and pakistani aviation.pdf
download from here, scribd is taking a million years to upload. :x
http://ifile.it/ae985vb
Image
Total : about 140 odd, including bell 47 G which are used only for training.

consider some of the recent types, whose numbers are hard to estimate
1. Bell 412 : 26-30
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007\10\23\story_23-10-2007_pg1_8
Tuesday, October 23, 2007
US hands over 30 military helicopters to Pakistan
* Transfer part of $235m project to build Army Aviation’s capacity

RAWALPINDI: The US formally handed over 26 Bell-412 helicopters and four completely refurbished Cobra helicopters to the Pakistan Army at a ceremony held here on Monday.


2. AH-1 cobra variants : 39-40

from 2007 paki forum
19 original operating out of 20 delivered in the mid-80s. AH-1S config now being upgraded to AH-1F 20 used AH-1F being delivered (12 arrived) 8 to follow by June-08. so total will be 39 by mid next year. {not sure if that has happened yet}
20 airframes are being stripped and delivered to be used as strategic spares.



3. Mi-17 : 24-30


US delivers four helicopters to Pakistan Army

Four Mi-17 helicopters were on Wednesday delivered back to the Pakistan Army by the US after being overhauled at an American facility. The overhaul programme provides critical support to the Pakistan Army by expediting maintenance and returning urgently needed aircraft for flight operations, the US embassy said in a statement. The US
has funded maintenance overhauls for 24 Pakistan Army Mi-17s, twelve of which were completed and returned to Pakistan last year.

The remaining eight helicopters are scheduled for delivery later this year.

The US is coordinating with the Pakistan Army to fund overhauls for another ten Mi-17s, and recently delivered to them two Bell 412 helicopters.

hindustan times via paki forum (July 2010)

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 11 Oct 2011 09:38

with small nos of so many types they will have a problem for sure in acting cohesively and keeping uptime.

the cobras have been flogged badly in COIN and in convoy escort roles in the pashtun/baloch lands.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Shrinivasan » 11 Oct 2011 13:04

Every helo gifted by uncle and in PA inventory is one helo too much, desh would have to face these and not the tellibunnies

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16816
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby NRao » 19 Oct 2011 20:47

Perhaps OT for this thread, but, there is ONE site/article that is claiming that the US is amassing troops along the Pak border. I did not take it very seriously until I read that our dear friend Kayani has warned the US to think 10 times before ......................

Do not know if it still means anything ...................

Exciting times to say the least.

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby rajanb » 19 Oct 2011 21:01

NRao wrote:Perhaps OT for this thread, but, there is ONE site/article that is claiming that the US is amassing troops along the Pak border. I did not take it very seriously until I read that our dear friend Kayani has warned the US to think 10 times before ......................

Do not know if it still means anything ...................

Exciting times to say the least.


Raoji,

It only means that kiyanahi is absolved if Unkil thinks 11 times and he attacks. :rotfl:

After all, thought is at the speed of light!

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3954
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby hnair » 20 Oct 2011 00:51

And when the thought came the tenth time for wise Admiral Mullen, retirement played spoil sport.... These Pentagon retirement rants must be like a comedy show for pakis, as they dig into Haagen-Daz from unburnt NATO trucks

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5341
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kartik » 20 Oct 2011 02:29

PAF Mirage crashes, pilot dead.

link


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 56 guests