Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

[Klaus]

(3) the early known association and importance of the pig in modern human migration
(4) a medical knowledge of organ and other physiological compatibilities [I know the nrisimha will be a ugly thorn in this argument!] (in fact pig flesh is used in unmentionable forensic experiments to determine effects on human tissue)

From a Darwinian angle, ungulates and felids evolved earlier to primates, so was the shaardula (leogryph) one of the "original beings"? One could also look at it from a Saivite angle, the Matsya-mermaid-Manu connection has already been reinforced in global folklore, the Unicorn and Centaur and another being with dog-like ears are somewhat ubiquitous in global folklore and noticeable in Shaivism. The cheetah is also sometimes considered an indirect descendant of the last common ancestor before felids and canids split away.

A common thread which could unite all the pearls could be Ungulate (including cetaceans)-Felid-Primate-Canid grand evolution through the Cenozoic, i.e Matsya-Shardula-Varaha-Narasimha-Centaur-Inuyasha and other combinations. Bji's point about amphibial life-forms, i.e Matsya-Manu evolving into mammalian life-forms, bypassing the stage of reptiles and avians (the reptilian mind being the symbol of depravity, lack of empathy and evil).

PS: With regard to Cetaceans, they were originally land dwellers who took to the sea, their hind-legs became redundant and the fore-legs evolved into flippers. Some part of the Bhagavatam struck me as deja-vu, dont seem to remember now.

[Manish_Sharma]

Under the lineage of Sankhya & Ashtavakra this Immortality or soul or whatever we actually are is very deeply explored by J Krishnamurti here:



[youtube]MfagSnzTcr8&feature=related[/youtube]

[Klaus]

Klaus, Please elaborate on the above two rishis in your post.

Thanks, ramana

A band of daityas(demons) called Kaleyas used to live in the sea bed and they would come out of it at night, enter ashrams of holy men, destroy everything they find there and run back and hide under the sea. Every morning one could see a number of tapasvis lying dead in their destroyed ashrams. No one would even guess who caused those terrible killings. A number of great sages were put to suffering on account of the Kaleyas. They did not even spare the ashrams of sages such as Vasishta, Bharadwaja, Chyavan and many others. Hundereds of brahmins were killed in their ashrams. In a few years brahmins as a group gradually became rare. As a result of all these all good acts such as performing poojas, yajnas and yagas came to a stand still. All the devas were very much worried. They did not know what to do. They went to Vaikunta and told Lord Vishnu the sad tale of the earth and asked him,"Who is the cause of this unnecessary destruction? We cannot imagine who could of this unnecessary destruction? We cannot imagine who could these be?" In reply Lord Vishnu said,"My dear devas, a gang of demons by name Kaleyas live under the sea. They come out at night and destroy ashrams of sages and kill brahmins, when they finish their evil deeds they disappear into the bottom of the sea. If you have to destroy them you have to drain that sea and then kill them. There is only one who can do that job and that is Maharishi Agastya. He can drink the entire volume of water of that sea in one gulp. No one else can do this work. Therefore go him and request him to do the task for the good of the world. When the sea is drained it is easy to kill the rakshasas".

Immediately the devas went to Lord Brahma, sought his permission and made for the ashram of sage Agastya. He was in an assembly of great sages. The devas prayed hard and long to please Agastya. They told Agastya about the havoc caused by the Kaleyas. They told him what Lord Vishnu had suggested. The only way left for the world to save itself was to drain the sea and only great Agastya could do it. They begged Maharishi Agastya to drink the water of the sea so that they could catch and kill the demons. Agastya promised to do what they had asked him to do. Then he went to the sea along with them and with the help of the strength of his tapas he drank the water of the sea in one gulp. When the sea bed became dry, the demons who were hiding at the bottom came out with their weapons and attacked the devas. There was a bloody battle between the devas and danavas.The devas fought bravely and killed a large number of Kaleyas. Those who remained escaped to the nether world and saved themselves. Then the devas came back to Agastya and thanked him profusely by singing his praise. They expressed their gratefulness to him for having helped them to spot out the kaleyas by draining the water of the sea. They also begged himto restore the water to the dried out sea bed. Agastya addressed the devas thus "Dear devas I am sorry, the water I drank is already digested. Think of some other means to fill the sea."The devas felt helpless. They went to Lord Vishnu along with Bhagvan Brahma and posed their problem and asked theLord to help them by showing the way to fill the sea. Lord Vishnu told them that King Bhagiratha, born in the familyof Sagara would do the job. The devas had no other way out except to wait till Bhagiratha appeared on the scene. Emperor Sagara had sixty thousand sons and all of them were reduced to ashes by the fire of sage Kapila's anger. In order to help them attain mukti Bhagiratha, grandson of Sagara brought the Ganga to the Earth by the power of his tapas. The divine Ganga filled and dried up sea bed with water. On the way she flowed over the ashes of Sagar's sixty thousand sons who were reduced to ashes by sage Kapila and thus helped them reach heaven. In this way the sea dried by sage Agastya came to be filled with water.

Kaleyas could have been a water snake species which went extinct due to climate change and onset of ice sheets.

Agastya, Narada and Durvasa are the three deities of the Drknna varga, the concept introduced by Parashara. More about this here.

There is a possibility that Agastya's son was the ancestor of the bloodline which became the Ikshvaku dynasty, hence a possibility that Rama could be an indirect descendant of Agastya himself. Agastya, Lopamudra and Durvasa are also Shakta worshippers, however due to the Shiva-Shakti dualism they could be Saivites too.

The above quote could also refer to a timeline of the landlocked Tethys sea, the cessation of the old-fold mountains and the commencement of new fold mountains with the expansion of small river systems.

With regard to Agastya's wife Lopamudra, it is possible that she could be a personification of Shakti/Sati itself. Thus Agastya-Lopamudra are Shiva-Sati or the famous Ardhanarishwara:

Sri Durvasa is the author of Saubhagya Chintamani Kalpa, also known as Durvasa Samhita, composed specially for the worship of Sri Kamakshi. It is a lesser known fact that Sri Chidanandanatha of Guhananda Mandali received explicit instructions from the great sage on restoring the nitya kainkarya to Sri Kamakshi as per Srividya Tantra. For the previous cycle of Devimana Guru varsha, Sri Durvasa was the Guru, whereas currently, the infinitely compassionate mother Bhagavati Lopamudramba is in charge. It is a Sampradayika Rahasya that those who recite Para Prasada vidya in the shrine of Durvasa receive his blessings and guidance. In Kamakshi's temple, not a single blade of grass can move without his permission and nothing escapes his sharp vision.

Another specialty of this peetha is Lopamudramba's presence as Yuganatha and Yuganathambaa swarUpiNi (whose names have to be learnt from Swaguru through mahA pAdukA), blessing upAsakas not only as shrImAtA, but also as Gurunatha swarupini. Thus, Amba blessed the deaf boy with nectarine speech and he burst into a set of five hundred verses known as AryA Shatakam. This incarnation of durvasa is called Muka Shankara. Among the various modes of Dikshas imparted like shAktI, shAmbhavI, mAntrI, kriyAvatI, ganDuShI etc., Anugraha is the highest form of Diksha, as described in Sanatkumara Samhita of the Shubhagama Panchaka. Lopamudramba herself granted Anugraha Diksha to Sri Durvasa, freeing him from the curse.

Sri Durvasa has appeared to many sincere devotees in Kamakshi temple at Kanchipuram. Sri Amrit, a great scholar and a Srividya Upasaka from Kashmir was guided by Sri Durvasa to write a commentary on Lalita Stavaratna. He was later instructed to undertake a pilgrimage to Kanchi where he was blessed with a vision of the great Guru. To this day, when the Chandana Abhisheka is performed to Sri Kamakshi, those with earnest devotion can see Durvasa right in the Srivigraha of Sri Kamakshi, when chandana kaappu is applied to Lopamudramba.

Agastya's prominence in the Ramayana is rivaled by Durvasa in the Mahabharata. Agastya is generally full of praise on the fine qualities of Rama, Durvasa has the following to say about Krishna (taken from Aitareya Upanishad)

"In his eating habits Durvasa Muni completely fasted from everything except he ate only Durva grass. Once he was asked by Srimati Radharani (Gandharvi): 'How is it that you eat only sacred Durva grass?'
"Durvasa Muni replied: "As sound is contained in the element of ether, and although sound and ether are different, this ether does not know I am spirit; How can I be a materialistic sense enjoyer? Touch is contained within the element of air, although touch and air are different. Touch is contained within the air. This air does not know I am spirit. How can I be a materialistic sense enjoyer? Form is contained within the element of fire. Although form and fire are different, form is contained in fire. This fire does not know I am spirit. How can I be a materialistic sense enjoyer? Taste is contained within the element of water, although taste and water are different. Taste is contained within water. This water does not know I am spirit. How can I be a materialistic sense enjoyer? Aroma is contained within the element of earth, although aroma and earth are different. Aroma is contained within earth. This earth does not know I am spirit. How can I be a materialistic sense enjoyer? It is the mind that remains among the senses and accepts them. When spirit is everything, how does one think? Where does one go? I am spirit. How can I be a materialistic sense enjoyer?
"Your beloved Krsna is the original creator of the two kinds of bodies. On the tree of the body are two birds. One is an expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is a witness. The other is an enjoyer. They are an enjoyer and a non-enjoyer. The first enjoys and the second is Krsna (Paramatma), the witness in the heart. In Him we do not find material so-called knowledge and ignorance. This ignorance and real knowledge are different. How can Krsna who is full of real knowledge, become a material enjoyer. He who lusts after pleasure is lusty. He who does not lust after pleasures is not lusty. Krsna, Who is free from birth and death, Who is unchanging, Who cannot be cut, Who stays by the Yamuna, Who stays among the surabhi cows, Who stays among the cowherd boys, Who stays in all the Vedas, Who is glorified by all the Vedas, Who has entered all living entities and Who controls all living entities, is Your consort."
"Gandharvi (Sri Radha) said: "Why has the Supreme Personality of Godhead taken birth among us as a cowherd boy? O sage, how do you know this about Krsna? What is His mantra? What is His abode? Why has He taken birth in Devaki's womb. Who is His elder brother Balarama? How is He worshipped? Why has the Supreme Personality of Godhead Who is far above this world of matter descended to this earth?" etc, etc.
"Durvasa said: "In the beginning only Lord Narayana existed. In Him the material worlds are woven as thread on a loom. From His lotus navel the demigod Brahma was born. When Brahma performed severe austerities, Lord Narayana granted him a boon. Brahma chose a question. Lord Narayana granted his request. Brahma asked about incarnations and why Krsna, Govinda was best. Lord Narayana then describes His creation and His holy dhamas, etc."

With regard to Durvasa and the Manthan, it is probable that Durvasa had already discovered fragrance and perfume, prior to the Manthan due to the strength of his austerities. However, it was ordained that this would be discarded and later regained through the hard labour of the Manthan.

[brihaspati]

The Kaleyas could also have been offshore island chain based pirates - or such maritime societies. Living below the sea - could also mean that they would some out in ships or boats across the horizon. Drying up of sea - or lowering of sea-level would make their islands accessible from dry land on foot, and the landlubbers could then finish them off. The survivors would retreat to islands further out in the sea - the "nether" world.

The dying up of sea - would coincide with the arid conditions of the late ice-age, and then this aridity could have given rise to drought like conditions where even the delta region could not support large populations - hence the "burning" of 60,000. Bhagirath introduced dredging of feasible channels to better harvest the much reduced Ganges flow - and hence brought "Ganga" back. This would revitalize agriculture and "release" the souls - new life.

Subsequent increasing rains would increase the marshy lands in previous arable lands where saline water would be encroaching. This would push the Sagarites up the GV towards UP - as also the plains would become more fertile with increasing rains. This is the possibility that Rama's ancestors would look at lower GV and coastal eastern India down towards Andhra as their ancestral lands and try to recover their presence.

They might even have an ancestral/clan feud memory of those survivors of their once-enemies - who had gone "down" to netherlands - the south. Again the maritime connection could be a clue, as with Kaleyas - as with Ravana and the rakshasa clan.

[sanjeevpunj]

Param Dhaam is Eternal and in a region that will not be destroyed. It is said that all regions upto Dhruva Loka -Pole star (but excluding it) will be destroyed.

What do you mean by destroyed?. Is it that all the matter existing in these lokas will be destroyed, leaving the space in which they exist intact?. or space too will be destroyed? if yes, how space can be destroyed?.

Space exists only relatively, its existence can also come to an end,when everything relative to it is gone. The Bhagvatam says about Dhruva Loka, that it was blessed to be included in the permanent abodes,and thus would not face destruction when the universe we know, including the Solar system,is destroyed.Yet the eternal abodes that exist beyond the Dhruva Loka, are not destroyed.

Verses 1-22 of Chapter 4,Canto 12.Srimad Bhagvatam.

(1) S'rî S'uka said: 'Time beginning with the smallest of the atom and culminating in the two halves [or parârdhas] of the life of Brahmâ, o King has been described together with the duration of the yugas; now listen to the annihilation of the kalpa. (2) A thousand cycles of four yugas is said to be a kalpa, a day of Brahmâ, in which there are fourteen original progenitors of mankind [Manus]. (3) When they are done there is the dissolution described as the night of Brahmâ that is of the same duration; the three worlds remain dissolved till the end of that time. (4) This is said to be the occasional annihilation [or naimittika pralaya] in which [Nârâyana] the creator of the universe lies down upon His bed Ananta, to absorb the universe including Lord Brahmâ. (5) After the completion of two parârdhas [viz. the two half life times] of the highest situated living being, Lord Brahmâ, are the seven elements [mahat, ahamkâra and the tanmâtras], subject to destruction. (6) This, o King, constitutes the elemental annihilation. Therafter this universal egg, this aggregate [of these seven universal principles] reaching the time of its disruption, will dissolve. (7) For a hundred years the clouds, o King, will not shower rain upon the earth. The people confounded by the time will, with the famine that follows, in the distress of their hunger [even] consume each other and gradually find themselves destroyed. (8) The sun with its terrible rays not giving the slightest [precipitation] in return, will drink up all the juice of the earth, the ocean and the living bodies. (9) Then from the mouth of Lord Sankarshana will issue the fire of destruction that raised by the force of the wind will burn the empty regions of the planets . (10) The universal egg burning on all sides with the flames of the fire from below and the sun above, will glow like a ball of cow-dung. (11) Next a terrible wind will blow for more than a hundred years and bring annihilation covering the sky gray with dust. (12) Clusters of multicolored clouds, my dearest, then will pour down rain for a hundred years with tremendous claps of thunder. (13) The shell of the universe will, filling up, thereupon be one single [cosmic] body of water. (14) When the water at the time of the flooding drives away the quality of fragrance, the element earth, being deprived of its fragrance, will dissolve.


(15-19) Fire then takes away the taste of water, after which it, deprived of its unique quality, dissolves. Next follows fire that by air is deprived of its form. With the fire merged with the wind the ether takes from the air away its quality [of touch] and then follows the quality of the ether, sound, that is taken away by the original elemental of nature [or false ego in ignorance]. With the ether subsequently merging, the vital power [false ego in passion] takes hold of the senses, my best, and are the gods subject to modification seized [by the false ego of goodness]. Cosmic intelligence seizes that [vaikârika] again along with its qualities [or manifest functions] and that mahat is then absorbed by the gunas of sattva and such. These three modes o King, are then, under the pressure of Time, overtaken by the inexhaustible doer [the original unmanifest form of nature] from whom there is not the transformation and such in divisions of time [shath-ûrmi]; unmanifest without a beginning and an end it is the infallible eternal cause. (20-21) Therein is speech, mind, nor the mode of goodness, passion or ignorance found; the elements of the greater reality - the vital air, the intelligence, the senses and so on - there are not, nor the gods or the arrangement of the different planetary orders. There is no sleeping, waking or deep sleep, nor water, air, ether, fire, earth or sun. That, being like a void or like someone fast asleep, is the substance which defying all logical explanation serves as the root [the pradhâna], so say the authorities. (22) This is the [prâkritika pralaya] dissolution wherein all the material elements of nature and energies of the unseen Original Person are completely dismantled by Time and helplessly merge.

[sanjeevpunj]

The Kaleyas could also have been offshore island chain based pirates - or such maritime societies. Living below the sea - could also mean that they would some out in ships or boats across the horizon. ----------They might even have an ancestral/clan feud memory of those survivors of their once-enemies - who had gone "down" to netherlands - the south. Again the maritime connection could be a clue, as with Kaleyas - as with Ravana and the rakshasa clan.

Kaleyas are mentioned in Srimad Bhagvatam.

Canto 5,Chapter 24, verse 30.Srimad Bhagvatam.
Situated below that world there is Rasâtala that is of the daityas and dânavas [the evil minded sons of Diti and Danu] named the Panis, the Nivâta-kavacas, the Kâleyas and the Hiranya-puravâsîs; they are from birth so said the very cruel and greatly powerful enemies of the demigods and are inevitably defeated by the might of the Supreme Lord Hari so favorable to all the worlds. Living like the snakes are they in truth afraid of the King of Heaven through the words of a mantra of Saramayâ, a female votary of Indra.

[RajeshA]

They might even have an ancestral/clan feud memory of those survivors of their once-enemies - who had gone "down" to netherlands - the south. Again the maritime connection could be a clue, as with Kaleyas - as with Ravana and the rakshasa clan.

I've been to Amsterdam, does that count?

[ramana]

. Not really!

[brihaspati]

RajeshA ji,
I know you are having fun! Yes that city will be a "nether" region "land" in many senses.

But that actually leads to an intersting old problem in interpreting ancient texts. The "up-low" paradigm, is much clearer in the sense of height - as a mountain is "up" while the plains or a depression in the land is "low/down/nether". But then how did it extend to north=up, and south=down? Is it so that our ancestors at one stage lived in the highlands from which they looked down upon distant lands? This would fit in with the Kenyan highlands origin theory, or perhaps a second or parallel highlands origin - central Asia, or foothills and valleys of Himalayas, or the Deccan plateau for example. If humankind or earliest civilization originated in mountainous or plateau region - then all subsequent expansion would be towards "lowlands" or "downwards".

Equating south with "down" would imply an origin north of the equator and to start with on a highland.

[brihaspati]

Gurujan, is tere any textual ref to what appears as a "dvaita" experience, with communication, accompanied by diminished daylight, and temporary loss of apparent control over the body, where one disputes with that communication and is met with all encompassing laughter?

[Manish_Sharma]

Brihaspati ji, remember I had asked you about "Rigved" being 90 thousand years old some time back, here Osho Rajneesh provides data of "Rigved" being more than 90,000 years old:

http://oshotube.com/jyotish-adwait-ka-vigyan.html

He quotes Tilak's research on it!

A must must must watch video.

[ManishH]

Chariots in the pleistocene 90kbp !? By all means an overly optimistic date for antiquity of RV. Even Talageri's analysis points to 3000BC or so. I didn't watch the whole vid - it seemed mostly about Jyotish. Can you please summarize his reasoning for that date ?

[Klaus]

Chariots in the pleistocene 90kbp !? By all means an overly optimistic date for antiquity of RV. Even Talageri's analysis points to 3000BC or so. I didn't watch the whole vid - it seemed mostly about Jyotish. Can you please summarize his reasoning for that date ?

Pleistocene is a term used for climatic/faunal/floral evolution. Most studies prefer to extend the Paleolithic to overlap a distinct period called the Epipaleolithic, possibly because deposit model studies in earthquake burial sites tentatively dated to the Epipaleolithic-Mesolithic era are not usually conclusive in nature. By no means is Osho's reasoning factually entirely right but it cannot be proved otherwise until we have a better technique to evaluate the effect of archaeology on ground water levels, taking known geological disturbances into account. With underwater areas like Cambay, the task becomes even more cumbersome. However, it is quite certain with past ground water fluctuations and Natufian culture records that "final draft" RV is atleast late-middle paleolithic.

[Manish_Sharma]

^^ Klausji, he also takes the example of a "certain constellation of stars" which occured 95,000 years ago being mentioned in "Rigveda", this was basis of Tilak's idea of "Rigveda" being at least that old.

Though little bit of discussion we had here last year:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... rs#p889479

[ManishH]

Klausji:

The oldest hymns might certainly have been handed down from the paleolithic. But hymns that use technology in a symbolic or literal manner really must have been composed much later. Eg I'm not aware of evidence for a horse-driven chariot in the paleolithic ?

It is entirely possible that the hymn that today mentions chariot and horse as symbols pre-existed in the paleolithic with different contemporary symbols. But during the neolithic, the same hymn was edited and revised with symbols of new technology as and when it became widespread. At least I'm ok with the idea that hymns evolved and took different verbal forms depending on the yuga or rishi.

I think the "final" RV draft represents evolutionary corpus stretching from late paleolithic right up to chalcolithic.

[RamaY]

Friends,

Came across a beautiful website called ancientindians at http://ancientindians.wordpress.com

Please check it out.

Ramanaji, there is a Telugu manuscript on Geopolitical aspects of Ramayana. People are trying to make a e-book out of it. klaus garu, this can be a good project for our book project. Will write a mail to you.

In this the author echoes my thoughts. "Dakshinapatha" is older than "uttarapatha" as the uttarapatha is formed when dakshinapatha collided with euracian continent about 30 million years ago and has been evolving since then. So there is a possibility that the Indic civilization is originated in dakshinapatha and moved northwards.

Will write a summery after I finish the book.

[Pranav]

A discussion of Caste and Varna (from http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RajivMalh ... ssage/1351).


Purusha Sukta (Hymns to Purusha) of Vedas Misunderstood

Literal translation of Vedas and particularly Purusha Sukta or Hymns to Purusha has created lot of myth , misgivings and misunderstanding. The word 'God' in this sukta should be interpreted as 'Purusha' or 'Brahman'(the Supreme Being or Supreme reality which pervades the entire universe). Pt.Nardev Vedalankar, Editor of Shastra Navanitam(A concise study of Hindu Scriptures), pub.by Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, South Africa describes it as "The word 'Purusha' is derived from the Sanskrit verb, 'priyn' which means to fill. The word Purusha thus means one who exists and pervades the entire universe. It could also mean one who lives in a 'pur' or a fortified city. This universe is likened to a 'pur' in which the Supreme Being or the Supreme Entity dwells. This analogy is extended further to describe the human body as a pur or city with the soul or Jiva(atma) residing within it and also referred to as Purusha. So Purusha is the Supreme Being or Supreme reality which resides in the heart of all beings."

Brahmanoasya mukhamasida bahu rajanyakriah
Uru tadasya yadvaishya padabhyam shudro ajayat.
(Rigveda 10.90.12, Yajurveda.31.11).

Vedic Language Highly Symbolic

The above hymn of the Purush Sukta relating to Purusha(supreme reality) is entirely an imaginative piece of writing and it is not to be literally translated to mean that the Brahmin originated from the mouth of the Purusha(all pervasive Supreme Entity and obviously implying here formless), the Kshatriyas from the arms, the Vaishyas from the abdomen and the Shudras from the feet. The unique characteristic of Vedic language(different from classical Sanskrit) is that it is highly metaphorical and symbolic and capable of multiple interpretation. However, for a proper understanding of the sense of the Vedas, we have to bear in mind the established standpoint of etymologists like Yaska that all the Vedic words are derived from verbal roots and their meanings are based on their derivation from verbal roots. Purusha Sukta is an analogy between four limbs of the body(head, arms, thighs & feet identified symbolically with society) and the four varnas, i.e., Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra who as providers of knowledge, protection, wealth and service are respectively required to eliminate ignorance, injustice, inadequacy and indolence, the four social ills of the society and serve mankind as per their functional values and natural propensities. Dr.Dilip Vedalankar writes in his book 'Vedic Humanism'(pub.by Vijay Kumar Govind Ram Hasanand, Delhi) "The Rigveda uses the metaphor of "person like society". The organic view of society was explained by comparing the Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras with the head, the hands, the legs and feet respectively. The health of the body society required the health of all the organs. Conversely the pain in one limb was the pain of the social body which represented the life spirit of the oganism." Thus, through mutual cooperation and co-existence, the aim of Vedic social stratification (based on worth and not birth) is to make the entire society happy, complete and perfect. Dr.S.P.Singh in 'VEDIC SYMBOLISM' points out "This classification of society is not to be taken as epoch specific, as it is generally misunderstood. Since the seers canvass of thinking in this hymn(Purusha Sukta) is cosmic, his ideas can by no means be confined to any specific period of human history and that also as applicable to a specific group of people of that age."

Confusion between Varna and Jati - Impact on Recommendations of Mandal Commission Report - Job Reservation

Some scholars as well as the authors of the Report of the Backward Classes Commission(Mandal Commission Report)of the Govt.of India, treat the above hymn of the Purusha Sukta as the source of Janmana jati vyavastha(hereditory caste system). Linking the allegorical Sukta to watertight hereditory caste system is baseless and absurd. As a part of intellectual subversion, a section of western scholars and in particular their Indian camp followers have confused the two words of Sanskrit literature, i.e., varna and jati as same which has led to several misconceptions about the Indian social system. Both Varna and Jati are at poles asunder while the former is spiritual, based on worth of a person and pre-vedic, the later is purely social, a post-vedic concept based on birth.

Maharishi Manu proclaims flexibility of Varnas and their growth

Vedas proclaim that all human beings should move forward in unison and there cannot be any distinction on the basis of birth. Atharva Veda says "All the four Varnas should live in harmony and with love" Priyam ma krnu devesu priyam rajasu ma krnu, priyam sarvasya pasyata uta sudra utarye.(Atharva Veda 19-62-1). As per true Vedic concept, the duty of each Varna is to serve the society and every individual irrespective of his varna has to discover his soul (self-realization). Soceity will not obstruct the growth and progress of even Shudra to awaken his soul. That is why Manusmriti ( WITHOUT INTERPOLATIONS) says:

"Shudro brahmanatameti brahmanashchaiti shudratam.
Kshatriyanjalamevamtu vidyadvaishyattathaiva cha."(Manusmriti 10/65)

i.e. a Shudra can become a brahmin by acquiring learning, merit, virtuous life, etc.and a brahmin lacking in above traits becomes a Shudra. The above principle of merit, action and personality traits (Guna-karma-Swabhava) also holds good for Kshatriya and Vaishya for their upward or downward mobility.

SPURIOUS INTERPOLATIONS /ADULTERATIONS IN MANUSMRITI

A perusal of complete Manusmriti will reveal that it is a carrier of paradoxes. We have noble commandments and profound philosophy in some of the verses and at the same time there are objectionable verses totally opposed to the original and real ideas of Maharishi Manu. Manu who considers Vedas as the final authority and said "Vedo khilo dharma mulam"i.e., 'Vedas are the main source of all Law' while in the presently available Manusmriti we find many verses which are not in accordance with the Vedic precepts. Further we find that there are verses supporting meat eating and some verses against it. In certain verses women & shudras have been highly eulogised while in some they have been looked down upon. An important question arises here that when ordinary writers avoid self contradictory statements in their works, is it possible that a person of Maharishi Manu's stature shall ever allow for paradoxical views in his own Dharma Sastra which has a universal significance? According to Dr.Kewal Motwani teachings of Manu have not only influenced India but also several other countries of Far East, South Asia, West Asia and Europe.Source: Manu Dharma Sastra by Dr.Kewal Motwani, pub.by Ganesh & Co.(Madras) Pvt.Ltd.,1958 Ed.

In the present day available complete Manusmriti contradictions and interpolations are of course there which have led to mis-conceptions. Dr.Surendra Kumar, former Principal, Govt.College Gurgaon in his book "Opposition to Manu Why?" pub.by Arsh Sahitya Prachar Trust, Khari Baoli, Delhi observes on scientific examination of Manusmriti that there are interpolations which have been added to it from time to time designed to suit the vested interests of interpolators. "The original verses are contextually relevant and written in a sober style which matches with the principle of due consideration for an individual's merits, actions and potentialities so dearly upheld by Manu. The interpolated verses are written in a different style and are not only irrelevant and out of context but also thematically discordant." To carry out social reform programmes, Swami Dayananda Saraswati extensively quoted only original verses of Manu in his works since he accepted interpolations in Manusmriti. Taking cue from Swamiji, a
number of Arya Samaj scholars in the last over hundred years have come out with several editions of Manusmriti by purging interpolations from complete manusmriti. However, the latest edition of Vishudh Manusmriti(sans interpolations) by Dr.Surendra Kumar is considered to be most authoritative, scientific and exhaustive. In his above publication, out of 2685 verses in the complete Manusmriti, Dr.Kumar has pin pointed 1471 shlokas as interpolations while 1214 verses are original. The criteria adopted by Dr.Surendra Kumar for identification of interpolated verses is based on logical yardsticks,namely, 1. Vishay-Virodh(Contradiction in subject matter), 2.Prasang-Virodh(Contextual contradiction), 3.Anter Virodh (Internal Contradiction), 4.Puneraktiyan(Repetition), 5.Shailey- Virodh (Contradiction in style), 6.Avanter Virodh(Accretion in interpolated verses),7.Ved-Virudh(Contradiction to the Vedas) Note:Since Manu believes in the final authority of the Vedas, obviously the verses contradicting Vedas in present day complete Manusmriti are interpolated.

Writing about interpolations in Manusmriti, Dr.K.V. Paliwal states "A reference in Narad Smriti also says that Manu wrote a dharma shastra, comprising 24 sections, 1080 chapters, and 1,00,000 verses and read it over to Narad who abridged it into 12000 verses and read it over to Markandeya. Markandeya abridged the verses to 8,000 and passed on to Sumati Bhargava who, in turn himself abridged them to 4,000 verses." "Revisions and changes continued to be affected in it between the period of its writing and the commentary by Medhatithi in the 9th century". Medhatithi during his time cried from house tops regarding interpolations in Manusmriti. Readers interested in deeper study of original Manusmriti who would like to know about additions, adulterations and later accretions shall find the research work of Dr.Surendra Kumar in both his Sampurna Manusmriti and Vishudh Manusmriti(pub.by Arsh Sahitya Prachar Trust, Khari Baoli, Delhi) very useful. Note: These days Sanskar Channel is showing a discourse on Manusmriti daily from 4 to 5.30am by Acharya Pradyumnji, Shiksha Guru of Swami Ram Devji. As a matter of fact, entire Dalitodhar programme undertaken for upliftment of downtrodden classes by Arya Samaj since 1875 has been greatly influenced and motivated by original verses of Manusmriti quoted by Swami Dayananda Saraswati and other Arya Samaj scholars in their works. As a result, a large number of Gurukul students hailing from the so called low classes after completing their studies became Pandits/Purohits of Arya Samaj and some of them even had the distinction of becoming eminent Vedic scholars.

King and Brahamanas liable for maximum punishment while Shudra for minimum punishment for the same crime as per Manu's Penal Code.

Even the king could lose his position if he dared to deviate from the legal code. Where an ordinary person should be fined a small amount, for the same offence king should be fined a thousand times more(Manusmriti 8-336). As per Manu's penal code, while determining the quantum of punishment, a brahmin is liable for most rigorous punishment for a similar offence as compared to the other three vernas because being more knowledgeable he is expected to be the role model for the entire society. Manusmriti (8-337,338) says "A convict in similar crimes like theft etc. has to be punished keeping in mind the principle that higher the status of an individual and higher the knowledge level, the greater he should realise his responsibility. Thus, a Shudra is to be punished 8 times more, the Vaishya 16 times more, a Kashatriya 32 times more, a Brahmin 64 times more or 128 more rigorous for a similar crime of theft.


Justifying backward classes reservation in jobs by Mandal Commission Report are based on exaggerated and preposterous notions of upper caste oppression

Due to the endless repetition of the Upper Caste Oppression Theory which is based on half baked knowledge and one sided view of our vast literature, it has not only established firmly into the minds of a common man but also that of intelligentsia. The impact of this can be seen on the 'Report of the Backward Classes Commission'(Mandal Commission Report). In Chapter IV(Vol.I&II) the report states "One important outcome of this ritual ranking of castes has been to create deep - rooted vested interests in this system and to enable the higher castes to exploit the lower ones through the institutional framework of social organisation." The above Report also states "Like the limbs of the body, they cannot properly exchange their place or function".

The above statements are contrary to the Vedic ethos since Vedic Soceity in general did not stop the progress or self development of any individual. For ascending the social order complete flexibility has been shown by various scriptures. Mahabharta says "A man cannot be a brahmin on account of his family. Even a Chandal who exercises restraint and has a good conduct is a brahmin"(Mahabharata Van Parva 226.14). There are numerous instances of children of non-Brahmana parents becoming Brahmana by virtue of their merit, action, learning and temperament. Swami Dayananda Saraswati in Chapter IV of his magnum opus Satyartha Prakasha says "Jabali of the Chhandogya Upanishad whose birth and lineage were unknown became a Brahmana. Sage Vishwamitra was born in a Kshatriya family but became Brahmarshi. Sage Matunga belonged to a very low Chandala family but became Brahmana and called a Rishi". Apart from the popular verse 10/65, Manusmriti has dozen of other verses downgrading Brahamanas to Shudra,such as, 2/37,2/40, 2/103, 4/245,etc for neglecting their prescribed duties and upgrading shudras(9/335) in accordance with the merit, action and abilities of a particular varna.

OTHER HISTORICAL EXAMPLES REGARDING CHANGE OF VARNA

1. Kavash Ailush, a son of a slave-woman, and Vatsa, a son of a Shudra-woman became Rigvedic Rishis for their having become seers of Mantras(exponents of Vedic hymns).

2.Valmiki who (according to some legends) was lowly-born acquired the fame which goes with the name of Maharishi Valmiki.

3.Slave woman's son, Vidur, became the Prime Minister of Raja Dhritarashra and came to be known as Mahatma.

4. Shri Ram, a son of King Dashratha, and Shri Krishna, born in a Yadav family, came to be regarded as God. They became venerable even for the Brahmanas, their birth in a Kshatriya family notwithstanding.

5.On the other hand, Ravana who was born in a clan of Pulastya Rishi came to be called a Rakshasha 'demon' for indulging in evil deeds and for his mis-conduct.

6. Raghu, the ancestor of Rama had a son named Pravridha. He was outcast from the Kshatriya clan due to his misdeeds and misdemeanour and became a demon.

7. Trishanku, originally a king became a Chandal.

8. Many of the Vishwamitra's sons came to be called Shudras.

(Source: 1.Opposition to Manu Why? by Dr.Surendra Kumar, pub.by Arsh Sahitya Prachar Trust, Delhi and 2.Untouchability Alien to Hindu Dharma, by Dr.K.V. Paliwal(pub by Hindu Writers Forum, New Delhi, 2005 Ed.)

Varna System Cycles - sometimes by birth and sometimes by worth - Periods of degeneration followed by periods of regeneration

The eminent Vedic scholar, Mr.Kireet Joshi in a seminar organised by WAVES at New Delhi remarked "Even when there have been failures and periods of decline, there have been sudden revivals and creations of new institutions and forms which have not hurt the fundamental continuity." Opposition to Caste system based on birth has been there since ancient times. Manu Smriti, Mahabharata, Bhagwat Gita and various other scriptures clearly record Varna determination as per ones personality traits, i.e. Guna, Karma and Swabhava. The world is governed by three gunas, i.e., Sattva(quality of purity and goodness), Rajas (passion and activity) and Tamas (ignorance and inertia). It is the combination and domination of one of these three gunas which make a person a brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya and shudra. Swami Vidya Nand Vidhey elaborates this in his book on Gitayog(4.13) that a brahmana has sattvik, kshatriya has rajsik, vaishya has a mix of sattvik and rajsik while a shudra has a combination of rajsik and tamsik gunas. Later Jain Tirthankars, Mahatma Budha, Sidhas from 9th to 12th century, Gorakh Nath and other Naths from 12th to 15th century exploded the birth based cast rigidies. One full chapter of Dhampada is devoted to the description of a true Brahmin. A large number of disciples of Mahatma Budha were Brahmins who preached budhism both within and outside India. Budha says "Not by birth is one a Brahmana, nor is one by birth a non Brahmana. It is by ones actions a person becomes a brahmin"Dhampada. As per Skand Purana"Every body is born as a Shudra, however, by education he becomes a Dwija(twice born) . Meghatheeth who wrote a commentry on Manu Smriti in 9th century, remarked that Varna was determined by ones actions(karmas) and not by birth(janma).

The core message of Bhakti movement which originated in the south in 8th century spread subsequently all over the country was also the same. Its main exponent in North was Ramananda - a brahmin who had a formative influence on number of medieval age saints. Ramananda is regarded as Guru of not only Kabir but of several low caste saints, such as Ravidas(even brahmins of Banaras used to touch his feet), Pipa, Sain and Dhana. The works of Ramananda's disciples are included in the Guru Granth Sahib(Adi Granth) while the highest representation has been given to Kabir with 541 hymns. Guru Nanak and other Sikh Gurus continued their crusade against hereditary caste system and gave a verdict that it is only the karma which decides ones varna(caste). It can therefore be inferred that at different points of time, caste system in India has been either by Karma or by Janma and cycles of caste rigidies and flexibilities have been there since ancient times.

Period of decadence - Vedic Studies falling into oblivion

The saints of the sant tradition started with a spirit of social criticism and protest directed against the caste ridden and ritualistic brahminism and barren scholasticism of the Vedas but did not practice their teachings. Actual Vedic Studies had fallen into oblivion and even Brahmanas were unable to comprehend various shades of meanings of the Vedas. That is why Kabir had to point out "Do not say the Vedas are untrue, Untrue person is one who does not delve deep into their study" (Adi Granth page 1330). The period of decadence continued till 19th century and this is evident from the autobiography of Maharishi Devendra Nath Tagore who remarked"The Vedas had become virtually extinctint in Bengal. Nyaya and Smriti shastras merely studied in every tol(Sanskrit School) and many Pandits versed in these Shastras came forth thence, but the Vedas were totally ignored. The business of the Brahmanas, that of learning and teaching the Vedas, had altogether disappeared from the country, there remained Brahmanas only in name, bereft of all Vedic knowledge, bearing the sacred thread only, with the exception of one or two learned Brahman Pandits they did not even know the meaning of their daily prayers." Disturbed by the declining state of true Vedic tradition which was getting extinct, Swami Dayananda had to give a clarion call "Back to the Vedas."

MAHARISHI DAYANANDA SARASWATI OPENED DOORS FOR STUDY OF VEDAS FOR ALL INCLUDING WOMEN

Swami Dayananda opened the doors for the study of Vedas for the downtrodden classes and women and quoted Yajurveda in this regard:

"Yathemam vacham kalyanimavadani janebhyah. Brahma rajanyabhyam shudraya charyay swaya charnaya."(Yajurveda 26.2). "Just as God reveals and tells the Veda-vani(divine knowledge) to the Brahmanas, the Kshatriyas, the Vaishyas, the Shudras, women, servants and men of the best quality born elsewhere, so should all men teach and spread it to one and all. No one is unauthorised in this regard".(Eng.translation from Dr.K.V. Paliwal's book - Manu Ambedkar and Caste System pub.by Hindu Writers'Forum, New Delhi). Taking cue from Swami Dayananda Saraswati, Arya Samaj took up various programmes for the upliftment of depressed classes and established number of Dalitodhar Sabhas, namely:

VARIOUS DALITODHAR SABHAS SET UP BY ARYA SAMAJ FOR UPLIFTMENT OF DOWNTRODDEN CLASSES:

1.Megodhar Sabha, Sialkot, 1903
2.Dayanand Dalitodhar Sabha, Lahore, 1930
3.Arya Dalitsabha, Dinanagar(Punjab)
4.Amritsar Achutodhar Sabha
5.Achutodhar Sabha, Lakimpur
6.Lahore Megh Sabha
7.Ashprishyata Nivarak Samriti, Allahabad
8.Achutodhar Sabha, Meerut
9.Ashprishyata Nivaran Sangh, Bihar
11.Depressed Classes Mission of India
12.Bengal and Assam Depressed Classes Mission
13.ALL INDIA SHRADHANAND DALITODHAR SABHA, DELHI 1921
(Source: Contribution of Arya Samaj in the Making of Modern India 1875-1947 by Radhey Shyam Pareek, pub.by Sarvadeshik Arya Pratinidhi Sabha, New Delhi,1973 Ed.)

However, despite the efforts of Arya Samaj towards upliftment of depressed classes and to revive our ancient literature in its true perspective, the misinterpretation of Vedas mainly by Imperialist scholars of 19th century continued due to their meagre knowledge of Vedic Sanskrit and as a part of their policy of divide and rule which led to several misconceptions about Vedic studies including the distorted Varna social system (caste system). Therefore, it is only an intelligent approach to the symbolic poetic expressions of the Vedas and other Arsha literature (composed by rishis) which would reveal the true nature of Varna System - the four divisions of social and occupational castes based on worth of a person rather than his birth.

Some moot points demanding reconsideration and indepth study to explode myths:

1.As to whether is it really justified to dub Vedic civilization as rigid and uncompromising which is established on the principles of Vedic socialism with provisions made by Arsha literature, Lord Krishna, Maharishi Manu and other rishis for change of varna as per ones personality traits and characteristics?

2. Barring the period of decline, is it really true that all low as well as intermediate castes (OBCs) are victims of oppression of a society whose major doctrine of religion has been non-violence, compassion and benevolence?

3. Is it appropriate to describe forward castes as undemocratic and oppressive while the entire nation remained under foreign yoke for more than 1000 years?

4. Is it also justified to describe the so called upper castes as biased who even today respects gifted personalities and their scholarship irrespective of their birth and lineage like Maharishi Valmiki, Rishi Matunga, Rishi Jabali, Sant Ravi Das, Sant Kabir, etc.?

5. Is it reasonable to brand a social order as closed and restrictive which allowed spread of its knowledge (especially that of epics) beyond the frontiers of the country and opened the doors of Universities of Nalanda and Taxila for foreign students?

6. Is it relevant on the part of some scholars influenced by western thinking of the 19th century to ridicule a civilization as primitive which gave knowledge of zero to the world apart from various other achievements/contributions of Vedic Sciences?

7. Is it valid to describe Vedic Culture as pro-upper caste which right from the epic age has been condemning upper caste persons like Ravana, Duryodhana, Kans, etc. for their wicked character?

8. Is it reasonable to characterize forwards as racial with a prejudiced mind who since time immemorial have been worshippping Lord Hanumana - popularly called as a Vanara clan king and by some people - a tribal hero?

9. Is it justified to condemn Maharishi Manu - the first law giver as pro-brahminical who for committing the same crime prescribes maximum punishment for a brahmin and least punishment to a shudra?

10. Is it worthwhile on the part of some politicians to stigmatise Maharishi Manu whose statue is installed in the Senate Chamber of the Philippine Republic, and whose law book references were found in a manuscript below the wall of China when a Japanese bomb blew off a part of the wall in Mangolia in 1932.(Note: Pl.see Manu Dharma Sastra by Dr.Kewal Motwani).

11. Is it fair to criticize Manu whose legacy and dharma sastra are of universal significance having influenced the cultures of countries of far east, Asia and even Europe? (Note: Pl.see Manu Dharma Sastra by Dr.Kewal Motwani).

12. Contrary to the Rig Vedic view(9.112.3) which talks of members of the same family following different vocations(father a doctor, son a skilled workman, mother operating a grinder) and living happily - is it proper to generalise that Vedic Varna System is like a water tight compartment with no freedom to choose or change ones profession?

13. Is it valid to accept officially a particular caste as backward and some of the artisan classes as low castes who being promoters of art, craft, agriculture and technology have been saluted in the Vedic hymns(Yajurveda Chap.16)?

14. As per pauranic stories, generally Brahmins were poor and historically some of the so called backwards like yadavas have not been a deprived class. Lord Krishna who hails from the Yadava community and Sudama a brahmin studied together in the same Gurukul while the former became a king and later remained a poor brahmin. So in today's context, if caste is the criterion, who is more eligible for reservation?

15. If as per the interpretation of Purusha Sukta of Veda by some of the western scholars and their Indian camp followers, the position of feet in the body is inferior and head superior, then why pain in the feet is felt by the head? In the Indian tradition while greeting a senior, do we touch the head or feet?

The authors of the Report of the Backward Classes Commission chaired by Mr.B.P. Mandal perhaps would not have made some of the allegations pertaining to the so called age-old upper caste oppression, if they had taken a view of Indian tradition in totality. Any one looking at our vast ancient literature with an Isolated, subjective,selective and peripharal approach without any consideration of interpolations shall not be able to explode the myths and find the gems of deeper Vedic truths.

( Y.K. Wadhwa )

[ramana]

Some links:

http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/ebooks/

and

http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/ebooks/ ... index.html

[Klaus]

Klausji:

The oldest hymns might certainly have been handed down from the paleolithic. But hymns that use technology in a symbolic or literal manner really must have been composed much later. Eg I'm not aware of evidence for a horse-driven chariot in the paleolithic ?

It is entirely possible that the hymn that today mentions chariot and horse as symbols pre-existed in the paleolithic with different contemporary symbols. But during the neolithic, the same hymn was edited and revised with symbols of new technology as and when it became widespread. At least I'm ok with the idea that hymns evolved and took different verbal forms depending on the yuga or rishi.

I think the "final" RV draft represents evolutionary corpus stretching from late paleolithic right up to chalcolithic.

One way is to think of chariots being manufactured and imported into India over lengthy land routes. The Bir-Hama site in Saudi Arabia could be one such site during the younger dryas. Since India was always a net importer of horses, I would hazard a guess that it would have made some economic sense to import the package (horse+chariot) from our near-west. Also, the Persian gulf had Mediterranean climates during the ice age due to differing ocean current configurations. I also suspect that pre-Chalcolithic copper metallurgy specialists were in abundance in a contiguous land-mass from Western Punjab to Yemen/Ethiopia. Also need to note the fact that knowledge of zinc distillation was only known to people who might have directly contributed to RV too. So there could be transfer of know-how, technical details and trade between pre-sunken west coast settlements and the ice age copper arc of Arabia.

So was RV a testimony of a "brass age" preceding a bronze age? Brass fabrication constraints would not have allowed for vehicle measurements to approach true blue chariot sizes as we know it. The Khiamian culture also talks about brass plough heads being used around 17500 BCE.

PS: Just using "brass age" for convenience. Brass was definitely not the only copper-zinc alloy in use.

[Klaus]

Friends,

Came across a beautiful website called ancientindians at http://ancientindians.wordpress.com

Please check it out.

Ramanaji, there is a Telugu manuscript on Geopolitical aspects of Ramayana. People are trying to make a e-book out of it. klaus garu, this can be a good project for our book project. Will write a mail to you.

In this the author echoes my thoughts. "Dakshinapatha" is older than "uttarapatha" as the uttarapatha is formed when dakshinapatha collided with euracian continent about 30 million years ago and has been evolving since then. So there is a possibility that the Indic civilization is originated in dakshinapatha and moved northwards.

Will write a summery after I finish the book.

So Dakshinapatha ~= Indian Gondwanaland. Any parellels between animists/nature worshipper cults in Rwenzori mountain range and Western ghats? Will wait for you.

[ManishH]

One way is to think of chariots being manufactured and imported into India over lengthy land routes.

Actually Klausji, Indics were definitely making their own chariots and very likely even pioneers in chariot making. RV.1.130 verses 4 and 6 describes the takshaka hewing trees and crafting the chariot. It's used as a similie for how the poet crafts the hymns. There are more references to "rathakara" in RV.

Even liguistically, sanskrit has a largest preserved superset for wagon-parts vocabulary compared to any sister indo-european language.

The late Harappan Daimabad oxen drawn chariot is another example of how chariots can be invented by cultures that don't have a surfeit of horses.

Since India was always a net importer of horses, I would hazard a guess that it would have made some economic sense to import the package (horse+chariot) from our near-west.

Agree entirely on horse import from eurasian steppes. But oldest references to wagon making has been found in Mesopotamia (city of Ur). I think invention of locomotive technology needed leisure and sedentary lifestyle, so probably were developed in Asian city states (wagon in Babylon, chariot in the greater Indic region). But demand for them was very much in the steppes, therefore the oldest preserved chariots are found in steppes.

One thing that could explain it is a quid-pro-quo trade of horses southwards and craftsmen northwards. It's hard to imagine chariots with such robust construction as to be usable after long distance transport (unless you implied the sea route ?). Easier to imagine a craftsman exchange.

So was RV a testimony of a "brass age" preceding a bronze age? Brass fabrication constraints would not have allowed for vehicle measurements to approach true blue chariot sizes as we know it.

Very interesting comment on brass. Could you please pass me any references to ancient zinc mines ? I know of tin and copper but hadn't heard of zinc mining during antiquity in Greater Indic regions.

What are the brass fabrication constraints ? I thought RV chariot is mostly wood (takshaka, the word for carpenter, is frequently used for chariot maker and is derived from verb root taksha - to carve). Metal is probably needed at the hub ? Use of metal on rim and spokes is a later development.

[RamaY]

In his manuscript Sri Ka.Va.Na Sarma at http://ancientindians.wordpress.com

The author says Sage Valmiki tells Sri Rama (when Rama reaches his ashram from Bharadwaja ashram) that he (Valmiki) was heard Sri Rama's story from Narada starting from his ancestors Ikshwakus, who migrated from Godavari area to Ayodhya, till Rama's birth.

[RamaY]

Here is the interesting part from Sri Kandula V.N Sarma's manuscript at http://ancientindians.wordpress.com

This is very close to what Bji used to say

3rd Kanda

Valmiki offered his homage to Vasistha that came with Bharata to his hermitage. Vasishta is very old by that time but he is very healthy. His mind is as sharp as ever. The loss of memory that comes with old age did not affect Vashista.

Valmiki sat next to sage Vashista and enquired him. "Mahatma! Ocean is mentioned in the veda mantras that are going under your name, in Rigveda. When and where did you see the Ocean?"

Vashista was happy to hear this question and responded - "I will tell you the story of Vaivaswata Manu, originator of Ikshwaku lineage. Listen carefully".

"There used to be a king called Satyavrata, ruling the dravida kingdom. Since he is son of Vivaswata, he got the name Vaivaswata. (Ref: Vyasa Bhagavatam 9th Skada, 1st Adhyaya)

Vaivaswata had two sons, Ikshwaku and Saryati, and one daughter Ila. This Ila is married to Budha, son of Chandra. She had four sons - Suhotri, Hasti, Nahusha and Kusa. That Kusa's grandson is Viswamitra (Kausika). The arrogant Nahusha was kicked out of his throne. The city Hastina, built by Hasti, is on the way to Kekaya kingdom (Bharata's maternal grandparents house - Kaika is his mother). Saryati married to Sukanya and had a daughter Suvarna. This Suvarna married Suhotri and got a son Yayati.

Yayati had two wives Devayani and Sharmistha. Yadu (Yadavas) is born to Yayati and Devayani. Yayati and Sharmistha had two sons Puru and Kuru. Puru's grandson is Bharata, who adopted your (Valmiki's) disciple Bharadvaja. Since Bharadvaja denounced kingdom, Kuru became the king and extended his kingdom. His lineage became Kauravas. His son is Santana and grandson is Bhishma.

Ikshwaka had two sons Kakutsa and Dandaka. Raghu is son of Kakutsa. Raghu's grandson is Dasaratha.

The story I am going to tell now happened when that Raghu was a baby. By that time itself Dakshinapatha got warm and forests started growing in that region (from the previous ice age). Ikshwaka had a strong desire to establish a kingdom. He found the region between Ganga and Yamuna to be ideal for his kingdom. So he started his journey towards north. Vaivaswata gave his permission to Ikshwaka's plan.Ganga-Yamuna region became populated since then."

Nowadays Munis like you (Valmiki) are moving southward to establish hermitages to avoid that population, continued Vashista.

"I will start with explaining what constitutes a Yuga, even if you didn't ask that specific question.

In Paitamaha Jyothisha Sastra, Brahma took 5 solar years or 62 lunar months as one Yuga. That Yuga became 60 years after taking other planets.

But nowadays Markandeya further extended the span of Yuga, as he thinks a 60-yr Yuga is not sufficient to explain the long history of earth. So he proposed a longer Mahayuga with four parts. The first part is 4800 yrs, 2nd 3600 yrs, 3rd 2400 yrs, and 4th 1200 years. But this scale is too long to write human history.

Elders say Kritayuga started when Sun, Moon and Gurudu (Uranus?) were in Pushya star.

To balance the Yugas proposed by Markandeya to Rama's story, it will mean that the distance between Vaivaswata and Rama would have to be 3600 years.

But since I am alive in both their periods our Yuga must be limited to 60 year scale making it a 120 year span between Vaivaswata and Rama."

Listen to another story now

This story Sri Ka.Va.Na Sarma refers to a 2009 telugu magazine called "Chinuku" (I wrote to the editor to get back dated editions).

[RamaY]

This story Sri Ka.Va.Na Sarma refers to a 2009 telugu magazine called "Chinuku" (I wrote to the editor to get back dated editions).

Ikshwaka king wanted to check the status of ship building and set a date for his journey to the ocean thru Godavari river. He invited prince Kakuthsa too. Grandson 'Raghu' wanted to join them. Kakuthsa invited Vashista. Vashista was writing few mandalas for vedas and teaching them to his students so they can be passed to future generations. Vashista did not see the ocean till then and thought that it would be helpful to his Veda-writing. Arundhati wanted to accompany Vashista. Since they cannot leave their young boy Sakti, he too joined the entourage. No one could say NO to young Raghu as Sakti is coming too.

It took them three days and two nights to reach 'Antarvedi' (a shore town in Andhra).

Ikshwaku inspected the ship construction work with prince Kakuthsa and Vashista. Vashista was surprised to see that ship. Apparently Vaivaswata gave the design specifications of that ship to Ikshwaku who gave them to the engineers. It can comfortably accommodate 25 people. It also has space for 100 drums and 100 boxes for the journey. It should be ready in a month's time. Markandeya promised to accompany them as he knows the way.

Raghu loved seeing the ocean. He played in the beach sand and the waves. Sakti found the ocean surf to look like milk foam. Vashista contemplated few Ruks (mantras in Vedas) based on this experience.

The return date is approaching. Markandeya, the most notable in Bhrigu lineage, came there. The founder of Gautami river (Godavari) Gautama came with his wife Ahalya. Four more sages too came with their wives.

Some of Ikshwaku's people and some of Arundhati's relatives decided to stay back until the floods (from the raising oceans or godavari?) recede.

They filled the pots and boxes with food grains. They also took some cows and their calves on the boat along with grass for them. The entourage did not look like people leaving their ancestral lands, but looked like a marriage party.

Vaivaswata bid farewell to the people left behind. "You are being left here. Our kingdom will soon be flooded and destroyed (or forests will reclaim them). What can I or Ikshwaku give to you, other than our best wishes? I pray that one day you will build a kingdom here."

He told the brahmins (that were left behind) "Please do not feel sad for losing Vashista and Gautama. Please name the streams of Godavari on their name. They will be among you as long as Godavari exists. I also predict that you will master Vedas and no one can beat you at vedic knowledge".

Arundhati told her relatives that "You gave your daughter to our Vashista. From now onwards you will be called "Arundhateyas".

Vaivaswata got on to a small boat with his people and from there got into the large ship that was built in the ocean and started his northward journey.

In that ocean they found fish with horns. They are very friendly (dolphins?). They were making whistling sounds and were showing them the way in front of them as if they know where Vaivaswatas wanted to go.

"The almighty is helping me by showing the way as he promised in my dream" said Vaivaswata to Markandeya looking at those fish.

As the journey continued Vaivaswata approached Markandeya, who is of same age as Vashista but is more knowledgeable, seeking knowledge.

Vaivaswata asked Markendeya - "Dear sage! You attained explainable amount of knowledge at the age of 16 itself. Please tell us if the current floods will remain forever or will the increase of reduce?"

Markandeya answered to that question -

Dear king, I will tell you what I learned from my great grand father Bhrigu. These ice ages and warm ages repeat after one another. The ice age lasts for 100,000 years where as the warm age lasts for 12,000 years. As the warm-eon starts the snow melts and floods thru the earth raising sea levels. Once the snow melts the rate of sea-level raise will decrease. In the second half of warm-eon will see the dropping temperatures leading to next ice-age. So the first 4000 years of warm age sea raising sea-levels. It will be followed by slow-raise in sea-levels for 2000 years and another 2000 years of receding sea-levels. The last 4000 years will see snow-accumulation in Himalayas. Now we are seeing high rates of snow-melting and sea-level raise. So we must be ~3500 years in the current warm-eon.

Ikshwaku stopped Markandeya to ask a question - "Does it mean the human race was born about 4000 years ago?".

Markandeya smiled at that question and continued - "Not all parts of earth are covered with snow in a ice-age. Even though the overall temperature falls, during those times people moved down from hilly regions to plains and live there. From north to south meaning people move from Himalayas to Vindhya and from there to Dakshina patha. They lived there with whatever they found there and established kingdoms and cities. And when the warm-eon starts, they moved from Dakshinapatha to Uttarapatha".

"So we too came from North to South and moving back to North?" asked Ikshwaku.

This Dakshinapatha is extremely old. Human race might have originated from here or co-originated here. You must have been locals here (in Dakshinapatha). There are no indications of snow-capping in ice-ages in this region. We know that some parts of Uttaraptha is covered with snow during that time.

The Jambavanta and Vanara races here are very ancient. Lanka and Kishkinda kingdoms are very old. There have been many wars and compromises between Lanka and Kishkinda. After this snow melting, the regions between Lanka and Kishkinda are going under ocean, bringing peace here. I think your jati is someone who are accustomed to cold weather living north-east of Kishkinda.

Their ship reached Kovala region. Ikshwaku settled in that region as that region was not flooded and built Ayodhya fort city starting Ikshwaku lineage. At that time Kusa was ruling Kusa city.

By the time Raghu came to power in Ayodhya, Sukra's daughter Devayani married Hastina king Yayati. Visravasa's son Kubera became king of Lanka.

When Raghu's son Aju became king, Vashista remained the rajaguru as his son Sakti died (Viswamitra killed him).

Visravasa had a son Ravana with his other wife Kaikasi at his middle age. Ravana kicked his step brother Kubera out of Lanka and became king. Deviating from their duty to protect forests Rakshasas turned into cannibals and started destroying Dakshinapatha.

Chyavana married Sarvati's daughter Sukanya and had a son Aurya. Aurya's son Jamadagni married Renuka (their son is Parasurama).

Ruchika's father-in-law Gadhi is father of Viswamitra, grand-son of Kusa. Viswamitra got jealous of Vashista and wanted to prove his capability. He wanted to give Trisanku, a step-brother of Raghu and fellow Ikshwaku, the heavenly pleasures but did not achieve complete victory.

Yayati and Sharmistha had two sons Kuru and Puru; where as Yayati and Devayani had Yadu.

Aja's son Dasaradha married Kaikeya and Sumitra as he did not have children from his first wife Kausalya. Sakti's son, Vashista's grandson Parasara reached adulthood by then. Viswamitra's sister Satyavati married Ruchika and had a son Jamadagni. Jamadagni's son with Renuka is Parasurama.

Puru took the throne from Yayati and had a son Dushyanta who married Sakuntala.

Since Dushyanta's son Bharata did not have any children, his kingdom has gone to Santana whose son Bhishma ruling Hastina as a caretaker

This story mixed many things for me -

1. Vaivaswata manu's journey - Matsyavatara
2. Link between Ramayana and Bharata lineages

I am tired. Need to think about this in conjunction with other resources....

[ramana]

One way of looking a hings is to make a table pf four columns: Plus, Minus, Interesting and Comments. In the comments section you can collate what other information confirms or refutes the information.

[RamaY]

Finished Sri KVN Sarma's Ramakanda.

Very informative. He removes all the mythological mumbo-zumbo and tried to tell the story as a human story. Can be made into a good script for a modern movie.

Interesting points -

1. The armies mentioned in Ramayana are in the range of 10^62 where as today's population is below 10^10 range. Entire earth will not be sufficient to place that much army. This must be an exaggeration.

2. Sri Krishna could be great-grand-son of Sri Rama

3. Dharani mata (Sita's mother) must be queen of Naga race (north Andhra is Naga race. Andhra Universities emblem is Nagas). She took away Sita Devi when Rama wants Sita to do 2nd Agni test. The first Agni test was destroyed by Agni and Brahma when they come there and vow for Sitamaata.

We need to find who these Brahma, Agni etc were. Perhaps some UN elders

4. Next generation
Rama
-- Kusa - North Kosala
-- Lava - South Kosala
* These kingdoms can loyal to only the descendants of Kausalya = Rama's mother

Lakshmana
-- Angada - Karupati?
-- Chandraketu - Chandrakanta

Bharata
-- Takshaka > Takshasila
-- Pushkala > Pushkalavati (we heard this name in Chanakya book)
* Both these kingdoms are close to Kekaya (Bharata's maternal uncle's) kingdom

Satrughnu
-- Surasena - Madhura
* Surasena took his brother-in-law Ugrasena under his protection. He named his daughter after is mom (Satrughna's wife - Srutakirti?) and Son Vasudeva (grand father of Sri Krishna and Balarama). Later Kamsa occupied Madhura.

&&&&&

5. He calls Rakshasas as a race (Rakshasa = one that protects, forests) who are responsible for protecting forests. Some of them resorted to cannibalism.

6. Yakshas are interested only eating

7. Gandharvas interested only in arts and pleasures (we see this description in Mahabharata Rajasuyaga conquests by Pandavas. Refer that post that describes a kingdom in Dakshinapatha which is known for its hippy culture - ancestors of Khajuraho?)

8. He calls Vanaras as the people who are proficient in climbing trees and that carry long ropes along with them. They also wear tails to represent their races. They would remove their tail-costume whenever they want to interact with other human races.

9. Ravana wears 9 fake heads when he sits on the throne and during conquests only. Perhaps an indication of his victory over ashta-dikpalakas + Indra (My thoughts )

[RamaY]

[RamaY]

[RamaY]

Location of Sumeru : Kavana Sarma, Satya Sarada

Authorship and Copyright Notice : All Rights Reserved : Kavana Sarma, Satya Sarada Kandula

Meru Beliefs :

Nowadays many people who wish for good things to happen to them keep a small image of the Meru Mountain, made of 5 different kinds of metal and painted gold in colour, in their puja room and worship it everyday. It is believed that Sri or Devi or Adi Sakthi is present on this mountain. Since that mountain is of a beautiful colour – Su Varna and since suvarna has come to mean gold over time because of its good colour, many people believe that SuMeru is a mountain of gold.

Possible Meru Locations outside India:

There are two mountains named Meru in Africa and one named Meru in Sumeria, Iran-Iraq.
There is a Meru mountain in Africa, in the middle of Kenya, 37.65 E longitude and 0.05N deg latitude. It is very near the equator also called bhu madhya rekha in sanskrit.
There is another Meru mountain near Kilimanjaro mountain range. It is in the ‘Arusha’ (aRSa? RSa?) forest of Tanzania. It is approximately on the same longitude as the Kenyan Meru and slightly to the south of the equator. In our childhood the sound “R” was taught as “aru” in pronounciation. So aruSa could well be RSa. It is well knowm that RSis, Rshis, Rushis, Rishis, inhabit the Meru mountain amd meditate there.
In Sumeria (Mesopotamia, Iran – Iraq) there is a great mountain called Sumeru. This is to the north west of the Himalayas and on the other side of Himalayas with respect to Mithila. Therefore this is a strong candidate to be the Meru Parvatham that is indicated in the Devi Bhagavatham. There is so much similarity in the languages, customs and stories of the Hebrews, Persians and the Ancient Indians. (See the post : Halloween, Karthika Pouranami, Yama Deepam). The word Yehovah is like the sanskrit yah vah, It means He is who has expanded into the universe. Just as Vaivaswatha Manu went north to the Himalayas when the east coast of dravida – andhra was flooded, similarly it is said that several millenia later, Noah also saved his people in a boat. (See also the post on : Pralaya Katha Vinayaka and Mata: Kruta Yuga Flood Narrations).
There is an Asur town in Sumeria. The vedic word Asura originally meant strong. Even Indra has been described as Asura in 9 hymns. With time the word Asura took a negative meaning. There is an Arka and a RSanAbha in the stories of that region. They also have saptaRSis. Persians used to worship fire just as Brahmins do.
Searching For Meru in India :

We thought there must be a Meru Parvatham in India also and looked through our own ancient sanskrit texts. Knowledgeable people recognise that the more ancient texts have fewer data interpolations in them and preserve the data of that time more exactly.

Meru as the earth’s axis : Surya Siddhantam :

According to the SURYA SIDDHANTAM of Maya Danava, the father-in-law of Ravana, Meru is not a mountain at all. It is an axis of the earth that passes through the North and South Poles of the earth. The earth revolves around this axis and therefore it appears as if the sun and the moon revolve around this axis. (It is poetically said that the suna nd the moon do pradakshinams around Meru, since Devi is to be found there.) Our ancient astronomers connected the north and south poles of the earth along the surface of the earth through the Rohitaka peak, Kurukshetram and Lankapuri of Sri Lanka and called it the zer0 longitude. Everything to the east of this zero longitude was east and everything to the west of this line was west. It is believed that Meru is at the “centre of the earth”. This must have been the reason for that belief. Can you really think of a central point on the surface of a sphere? Any point can be defined as the centre.

Meru as a mountain to the North or North-West of Himalayas : Devi Bhagavatham, Mahabharatam

After Veda Vyasa completed his work of the compilation and division of the Vedas, he sat on the Meru mountain and meditated on Devi. (Vyasa’s meditation and Suka’s birth : Devi Bhagavatham : 10th and 14th Adhyaya of the First Skanda). When Vyasa’s son Suka, completed his education under Brihaspati, Suka was advised to visit Raja Janaka, Sita’s Father as per Devi Bhagavatham. Suka took 2 years to cross the Mount Meru and 1 year to cross the Himalayas to reach Mithila.

(Kisari Mohan Ganguli’s translation of the Mahabharatam, says he crossed 2 ‘varshas’ as in geographical areas and not ‘years’) Either way we can surmise that the Meru mountain is to the North or Northwest of the Himalayas.

The Mahabharatam tells us that there are 9 varshas in Jambudwipa of which Bharata Varsha is one and it is to the south of the Himalayas. The hiranmaya (golden) varsham is near the Himalayas. Nila, Sringa and Sveta Parvatas are there. In the centre of these parvatas is the Meru Parvatam., like the centre of a lotus. It was also considered the middle of mother earth. This means that Meru Mountain, was in the centre of Jambudwipa but not in India at all as per the Mahabharatam.

Meru as a mountain in South India : Valimiki Ramayanam , Bhavishya Puranam

The Valmiki Ramayanam tells us that there was a mountain on which gold could be found in Kishkinda. Kishkinda is to the south of the Vindhyas and today we believe it to be in the area of Karnataka-Andhra-Bellary (Hampi). Therefore the “golden mountain” must refer to Kolar. Kolar is very close to the ancient Indian zero longitude. (Interestingly Chanakya had said that gold and precious tones were to be found in the south and not in the north as some of his seniors had believed).

(The Sri Maha Vishnu Puranam tells us that the area to the south of the Himalayas and to the north of the seas is the Bharata Varsha.)

Of all the Puranas the Bhavishya Puranam is written in a unique style. Each new narrator of the Bhavishya Purana uses the voice of the original narrator and therefore some events are described as predictions. Thus the Bhavishya Puranam grew in size with time. Suka continues the narration after Vyasa and other narrators continue after Suka, in Suka’s voice.

This Bhavishya Puranam says that Meru Parvatam is in Tailanga Desam and that the Narmada River flows alon the Meru Parvatham and to the South of it. Thus the Bhavishya Puranam says that the Meru Parvatham is in the ‘middle’ of Bharata Varsha, India.

While the Europeans concluded that they came here, it is equally possible that we went there. This needs to be examined in a little greater detail.

The National geographic genographic project has given some maps of the routes which represent their conclusionthat humans first originated in Africa and then spread to other parts of the world, first via land and then by boat and then by land again. (Look at the interactive map for a quick and easy grasp of their concept. Click here for a photograph of the Adaltu Skull found in Ethiopia, which is estimated to be 160,000 years old.) The basis given for this Out-Of-Africa theory is a study of genetic markers. There are some differences and some commonalities between the people of Africa and India. The people in the middle regions have some features belonging to both groups. Since people have already assumed that the first people originated in Africa, the direction of migration was assumed to be from Africa to India.

A very old part of the world is the forest of the Gonds, called Gond-Vanam or G0ndwana. The Narmada Valley Excavations, have revealed a human skull in the volcanic ash layers between 750,000 years to 75000 years old. The skull was located closer to the 750,000 year layer, and is estimated to be 600,000 years old. It is possible that first humans spread to all parts of the world from Narmada Valley in Gondwana (the forest of the Gonds). (In this context you may find this data also interesting : Myanmar fossil primate, Ganlea megacanina).

The Bhavishya Purana tells us that Adama was banished from a garden of 64 square yojanas, by his father Kardama along with his wife Havyavati (Eve). Their descendants are the ‘mlecchas’ of our puranas. It is recorded that after some years, their descendants Kasyapa and Aryavati returned to India and that their descendants and kinsmen came to be known as/ became Aryans (as their ancestors?) by learning the Vedas. The biblical flood occurred about a 100 years before the date given for Aryans arriving in Kashmir, as per the Bhavishya Purana., about a 1000 years after the Mahabharata war.

A researcher by name John Sassoon has written a book called, “From Sumeru to Jerusalem the forbidden Hypothesis”. This book tells us that initially the bible was preserved word for word and in later times, the percieved meaning was given more importance than the words. The original texts say that the Hebrews came into Sumer from the East. The later texts were altered to say that the Hebrews came into Sumer from the west.

“Ancient Traditions that have been preserved unaltered for thousands of years have an uncomfortable habit of turning out to be based on a core of truth” – John Sassoon.

If the Jews came to Sumer from the east and Adam was banished from Kardama Asrama in India to the west, the data fits pretty well.

Therefore, it is necessary to look for the Meru Parvatham in the Narmada Region, in what was once Gondwana. I also recommend interested readers to read : Link to: Indian History – A New Construct {Someone started this project already }

[Klaus]

RamaY ji, another mountain which is equally mysterious as Meru is Gandhamadana, where Hanuman is supposed to have meditated. Gandhamadana also sounds similar to Gonda-vana or the "forest sorrounding the Gonda-Madana (Gonda in short) peak".

Ramana ji, I was also thinking if the varaha avatara was a symbol of animal bodies being used as a form of primitive organ harvester to extend the lives of rishis and tapasvis whose bodily systems would rapidly decay due to the harsh environment during tapas and rituals. Life-spans of 150 years could be achieved in this way. Looks like medical systems (ventilator, dialysis system etc) were already in place then and we are just rediscovering them now.

ManishH ji, will reply to you shortly.

[Sushupti]

Response to Indian dancer upset at my critique of Christian Bharatnatyam

After the recent highly successful book event in Houston, the organizers received an email from a dancer in Houston about an upcoming performance by Leela Samson's students. When someone sent the Breaking India excerpt about Leela Samson to this dancer, she replied that Breaking India had "resurrected the scandal" against Leela Sampson 4 years after Sampson's supporters had declared it "a dead issue or a non issue". Since it was a private letter forwarded to me for a response, I will not name the person. The letter claimed that the "attacks against Leela Sampson" in 2007 were the work of one man based on "some internal 'politics' and innuendos" within the dance academy. It went on to say that "the dance community of India strongly supported Leela Samson and discredited Nadar's accusations as scurrilous religion-based comments." The protestor proudly asserts: "I am a dancer, from Chennai, and to me, the Kalakshetra is a 'shrine' to art built by Rukmini Devi..."

I agree with her on the prestigious dance academy being a shrine. I disagree with her on what that entails. To understand the syndrome we are dealing with, it is important to first understand the strategy known as inculturation and its colonizing influences upon a growing number of Indian dancers, such as this protestor. What this dancer feels is precisely the result of inculturation - namely, to de-Hinduize the tradition in such a manner that it is welcomed by the practitioners who begin to see this shift as a kind of modernization and globalization program. The first stage is to diminish the dharmic metaphysical context by emptying the symbols of their deeper meanings, and this gets gradually secularized and eventually Christianized.

The students learn to perform across a wide range of improvisations and stories depending on the given audience. From the most traditional to the most distant from tradition, there is a spectrum with the following stages:

1) very traditional Hindu

2) modern but still Hindu

3) use of Hindu symbols but without explaining their traditional meaning

4) symbols turned into decorations and generic spirituality, to be sprinkled in for exotic/ethnic beauty

5) total secularization

6) Christian stories, but still using the traditional dance grammar, dress, gestures

7) dancing stories of protest against the tradition's "oppression" against women, Dalits, etc.

Ever since Christian institutions across India and the West started taking over Indian dance academies, they have been increasingly producing such students in the name of modernity. The performer will do different things before different audiences. This is sort of equivalent to what is called "al taqiyah" in Islam, namely, to be respectful to the majority culture and traditions for the time being.

Inculturation is at a highly advanced stage of perfection in India. It was started by the church first in Latin America and Africa to gradually convert tribes by infiltrating them gently with appropriation of their culture. The western trend of Christian Yoga is a part of the same syndrome. There are many such appropriations that confuse Indians into thinking it is a complement to them. I deal with this partly in my forthcoming book "Being Different", and in greater detail in my subsequent "U-Turn Theory".

What I would greatly appreciate from Leela Sampson's academy is a clear statement of policy on inculturation and secularization of Bharatnatyam: Does she claim that this dance can be performed either as Hindu form or as non Hindu form? Does she believe that our postmodern era makes it easier (and hence desirable) to teach and learn dance that is "liberated" from Hinduism? Does she feel that Bharatnatyam is separable from its underlying metaphysics - a metaphysics that my book "Being Different" shows to be incompatible with the fundamental metaphysics of Abrahamic religions?

In other words, let us get Sampson's clear position on what is the relationship between (i) Hinduism and Natya Shastra and (ii) Natya Shastra and Bharatnatyam.

Until such questions are debated openly and dealt with, the protestor is making a meaningless and potentially insincere compliment to Rukmani Devi and "the dancers that she had helped train, and who still carry aloft the torch of Bharatanatyam." She must go deeper than a mere surface understanding of the syndrome.

But she is unlikely to do any such deep introspection. Her final sentence in the letter clarifies her escapist mindset: "It is a heavy book with disturbing writings. I'd rather spend time studying Vedanta..." This interpretation of Vedanta as an escape from whatever one finds "disturbing" and "heavy" is one of the symptoms of what I have called the Moron Smriti. But that is the topic of yet another book and I won't go further into it here.

Regards,

Rajiv Malhotra

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RajivMalh ... ssage/1357

[RamaY]

Atriji

Check this blog - http://ancientindians.wordpress.com

You might be interested in

http://ancientindians.wordpress.com/anc ... ent-india/
There were many river valley and lake civilizations in Ancient India.

Krishna Godavari
Aditi – Kasyapa
Asuras
Devas: Human or Divine?
Vasishtha
Indra
Ksheera Sagara Mathanam (Location)
Pratishthanapura: Capital of Satavahanas and of Sudyumna / Ila
Andhra historical evidence before the Satavahanas

Cauvery, Tungabhadra
Vanaras and Kishkinda
Vaivaswatha Manu
Karikala (Kalikala) Chola and the Ikshvakus: Tiruvalangadu Copper-Plates of Rajendra-Chola I

Saraswathi
Veda Vyasa वेद व्यास

Kosi
Viswamitra विश्वामित्र

Ganga
Bhishma
Rama श्री राम

[Atri]

спасибо RamaY garu...

[RamaY]

From the above site... This is ultimate

Rama was a Dravidian king whose ancestors were migrated to Ayodhya

yo ‘sau satyavrato nāma, rājarṣir draviḍeśvaraḥ

jñānaḿ yo ‘tīta-kalpānte, lebhe puruṣa-sevayā

sa vai vivasvataḥ putro, manur āsīd iti śrutam

tvattas tasya sutāḥ proktā, ikṣvāku-pramukhā

Translation

yaḥ asau — he who was known; satyavrataḥ — Satyavrata; nāma — by the name;

rāja-ṛṣiḥ — the saintly king; draviḍa-īśvaraḥ — the ruler (lord, master) of the Draviḍa countries;

jñānam — knowledge; yaḥ — one who; atīta-kalpa-ante — at the end of the last kalpa,  lebhe — received;

puruṣa-sevayā — by rendering service to the Purusha;  saḥ — he; vai — indeed; vivasvataḥ — of Vivasvān; putraḥ — son; manuḥ āsīt — was  the Vaivasvata Manu;

iti — thus; śrutam — I have already heard;

tvattaḥ — from you;

tasya — his; sutāḥ — sons; proktāḥ — have been explained;

ikṣvāku-pramukhāḥ — headed by Ikṣvāku; nṛpāḥ — many kings.

That saintly king and ruler (king) of the Dravida Countries who was known by the name of Satyavrata, at the end of the last kalpa (before the Pralaya) .. received knowledge by service to The Purusha, he indeed was Vaivaswata Manu, the son of Vivaswan, his sons have been proclaimed as the kings, famous as the Ikshvakus.



What this implies : The divine and dark Sri Rama, who was a descendant of Ikshvaku was the descendant of the Dravida King, Satyavrata Manu. This fits in with the time of Sri Rama, the Vedas and the late arrival of Aryans into India.

“vivasvataḥ — of Vivasvān; putraḥ — son; manuḥ āsīt was Manu”

The people who support the Aryan theory translate the words Manuh Asit differently. Instead of saying “Was Manu”, they interpret this as “became manu” or was ” reborn as manu” – this is a case of retrofitting translations on a pre-concieved theory).

Satyavrata Manu moved north with Vasishtha and the other Saptarishis as well as one of his sons Ikshvaku, who established Ayodhya after the flood waters had receded. He was also known as Vaiwasvatha Manu and Sraddha. His other sons stayed back and survived with the help of Ganesha and Uma. (Pralaya Katha Vinayaka and Mata: Kruta Yuga Flood Narrations)

[ramana]

Chew that DMK!

[RamaY]

Gentle Rakshaks!

A humble reminder to think about our deceased parents and ancestors.

Pitra Paksha or Shraadha – Ancestral Hindu Traditions

Pitra Paksha (पित्र पक्ष), also known as “Shraadh (श्राध)” or “Mahalaya (महालय)”, is a fortnight (fourteen days) dedicated to paying homage to our departed ancestors. It is observed during the dark fortnight of Ashwin or Aswayauja (September 12/13th to 26/27th 2011 in USA/UK-India) and usually occurs in September/October. The last day of the Pitra Paksha is known as “Mahalaya Amavasya” – the great night of the new moon or Amavasya. It is perhaps the most significant day of this fortnight as the ceremonies conducted on this day are considered to be the most beneficial to the “Pitra” or the ancestors.

According to Hindu tradition, the “Shraadh” (derived from the word “Shraddha”, which means “any action performed with utmost faith and devotion”) performed for our ancestors invokes great blessings for the one performing the recommended rituals. The rituals consist of performing pujas for our ancestors on the particular day(s) or tithi(s) of their death as mapped to the days of this fortnight. The puja is followed by a traditional feast for the pandits or priest performing the puja. In addition, one may choose to donate food, clothing and money to the pandits as charity or shraddha.

The least one can do is to leave tarpan (even at home) in their name.

Awahan: First invite (call) your ancestor’s spirit by praying (fold your hand) through this mantra:

“Om Aagachchantu Me Pitar Emam Grihanantu Jalaanjalim.”

Tarpan (offer Water)

Now offer Teel Mixed Water or Ganga Jal : 3 times for each one

For Father

“AmukGotrah AsmatPita AmukSharma Vasuroopastripyatamidam Teelodakam (GangaJalam Vaa) Tasmey Swadha Namah, Tasmey Swadha Namah, Tasmey Swadha Namah.”

Replace AmukGotrah with : Family Gotra

AsmatPita: Use for father

AmukSharma: Father’s Name

Teelodakam: Use if Teel is mixed with water otherwise use “GangaJalam Vaa”

Tasmey Swadha Namah 3 times while leaving (offering) water from hand

To Grand Father

Replace AsmatPita with Asmatpitamah

Replace Vasuroopastripyatamidam with Rudraroopastripyatamidam

Replace AmukSharma with Grand Father’s Name

Tarpan to Mother

“AmukGotraa Asmnamata AmukiDevi Vasuroopaa Tripyatamidam Teelodakam (GangaJalam Vaa) Tasmey Swadha Namah, Tasmey Swadha Namah, Tasmey Swadha Namah.”

It is true that mantra is a great medium for pray and offerings.

But love, attachment, feelings, sentiments, emotions, regards, Bhawana is a prime not mantras.

[paramu]

Ramayji,
Please post it in Nukkad and other threads also.

[SriKumar]

A questions to the gurujans, sajjans and mahajans....I was skimming through a translation of the Rig Veda and I find that the Gods praised there are Indra, Agni (bigtime), Maruts, Varun and then some lesser known gods like Mitra, Vasus etc. Vishnu is mentioned quite a bit though not as much as Indra. Used this link: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/index.htm

Question is: how come some major gods like Krishna not mentioned. I know Vishnu is mentioned, but there is no linkage to Krishna. Krishna who revealed the Gita perhaps should have found some mention/praise in the Rig Veda (being a philosophical commentary, in parts). Did the Mahabharata and the Dasa Avatara come after Rig Veda, then. (Vedas are placed around 3500 years ago). The other 'explanation' might be some/many hymns in the Rig Veda were lost, and hence we dont know what else was there. I haven't read the Rig Veda enough to know if Vishnu was described in a manner that we know Krishna today. There are several other 'major' Gods that are not covered, but I just picked Krishna as an example.

[ramana]

Sri, In the commentary on Gajendra Moksham, it is said that the Vedas are like a tree and difficult to comprehend. Vyasa seprated them hoping people will read atleast parts of it. However upon beinng told even that was unreachable, he composed the Srimad Bhagvatam.

If you know Telugu please download the three part mp3 that Narayana Rao garu linked a few pages before.

[Sushupti]

I find that the Gods praised there are Indra, Agni (bigtime), Maruts, Varun and then some lesser known gods like Mitra, Vasus etc.

As per conventional brahmanical understanding Indra of Rigveda is not the Indra of Puranas. Indra in Vedas is invariably stands for Brahmn.