Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 2011

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2011 06:15



This is an extremely interesting interview. Clearly India is in the background when it comes to the US making "progress" in Pakistan. Pakistan WILL NOT wind up assets that they see as needed against India and is angry with the US for never helping them directly against India. And there's not a lot the US can do about it.

But a sudden thought struck me. As long as India is strong enough to pulverise the Paki army, Pakhanis will never "feel safe". And as long as they claim they never "feel safe" they will continue to maintain proxies like the LeT which Mullen says is "spreading to the west".

In fact there is a circular argument concerning India over here. India is required to appear "less threatening" to Pakistan. But Pakistanis say that its not Indian intentions that count, it's Indian capability. Let me point out a curious factoid. Even if "India" decides two minutes after I post this message that we will wind down the Indian armed forces an convert our tanks into tractors an soldiers into farmers - it will be a decade - i.e 2021 before the Indian armed forces lose the capability to be a threat to Pakistan.

That means that no matter what the US wants India to do, and no matter how much a traitorous GoI might savor licking American ass (as is often alleged here) and unilaterally decide to roll over, it is physically not possible for India to reduce its capability enough to reduce Pakistani fears for at least 10 years from now. In other words there can be no major progress in getting India out of the way of Pakistan's US sponsored "rise" in the next 2 US Presidential terms (at the very least). So Pakistan is NOT going to wind up the LeT or Hackany and other proxies for the nest 2 US Presidential terms. So what can the US do?

1. The US can arm Pakistan further. More F-16s. Give F-22s and F-35s this time. Submarines etc. But will this make them wind up Hackany and LeT. Unlikely because India still exists.

2. The US can get directly involved in a war to defeat India. That is, the US can request Pakistan for bases in Pakistan to build up force levels in Pakistan that are strong enough to defeat India in a land war in exchange for Pakistan agreeing to wind up Lashkar e Poobah and Hackany. :D I mention this only for fun, because the force levels that the US needs in Pakistan for that is huge and it means "boots on the ground" in Pakistan and the Poobah and Hackany groups can be cleared up right there in Pakistan, or else those groups will have to tolerate US troops on the ground to fight a war with Kafi India. I am hoping that someone on BRF will take the bait and try and argue about how this is possible. I look forward to a good "discussion" on this matter. Truth and accuracy are useless things for good forum arguments.

The long and short of it is that the US cannot make the Pakistani army take down its proxies for at least a decade - and if you ask me, India is not going to wind down her armed forced two minutes after this post from shiv - so Pakistan will never take down its proxies.

3. So we have option 3 for the US: Cop out and get out. Give it up as a bad job and downhill ski, accepting defeat, but calling it victory.

4. Chankian option: There are some Chankian options for the US. I won't bother talking about that. The US has been too dumb all these years and still sounds as dumb as ever - so these options are like "India winding down its armed forces two minutes after I click submit for this post"

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53934
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby ramana » 29 Sep 2011 06:23

5. Can destabilize the political system so there is action paralysis.

Wait they don't need that as India is capable of doing it without any external prodding.

Seriously try to map scandals/skeletons rattling with when TSP felt unsafe since last 40 years

ranjbe
BRFite
Posts: 264
Joined: 12 Apr 2011 21:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby ranjbe » 29 Sep 2011 06:42

shiv wrote:


...... I mention this only for fun, because the force levels that the US needs in Pakistan for that is huge and it means "boots on the ground" in Pakistan and the Poobah and Hackany groups can be cleared up right there in Pakistan, or else those groups will have to tolerate US troops on the ground to fight a war with Kafi India. I am hoping that someone on BRF will take the bait and try and argue about how this is possible. I look forward to a good "discussion" on this matter. Truth and accuracy are useless things for good forum arguments.
:D
[/i]"

Jaspreet
BRFite
Posts: 206
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 02:22
Location: Left of centre

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Jaspreet » 29 Sep 2011 06:51

The US can get directly involved in a war to defeat India...Truth and accuracy are useless things for good forum arguments.


Shiv,
But there can be a defeat other than military. Why should the US have to try to defeat India militarily? US knows pretty well what Pakistan wants, and that is to be accepted as one of "them" - them meaning the westerners. If US were to declare two minutes after I click submit on this post that Pakistanis are in fact their close cousins and will be liberally granted visas to US you can bet Pakistanis will heave such a huge sigh of relief and superiority that it'll cause a tsunami in the Pakistan Ocean, previously called Indian ocean two minutes ago.

Once that is done, aid or no aid, LeT and Hackaney will start winding down.


Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Cosmo_R » 29 Sep 2011 07:09

@Ramana ^^^: Bourbon Wallah told me that the problem is US troops in Afghanistan are effectively hostages. Getting in was easy. Getting out is harder. The NDN does not allow military wares to EXIT only 'supplies' to come in leaving a helicopter from the roof scenario.

That said, Hillary is actually on record as saying a successful Faisal Shazad 2.0 will trigger a massive response. That is the US redline IMHO.

So, ISI being ISI, probably activated non-Pakis to do FS for example, Rezwan Ferdaus. Hey go bomb BD, besides he's an American! Plausible deniability.

IMHO, it's a race to declaw TSP before they decentralize the nukes.

Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Airavat » 29 Sep 2011 07:24

Pakistan releases Osama's bodyguard

Amin al-Haq escaped from Afghanistan with the al-Qaeda leader in 2001 and went on to become a key financial aide. Al-Haq, who is thought to be 51, has a long history with armed groups. He fought Soviet forces during the 1980s and was part of the Afghan delegation which travelled to Sudan in the 1996 to bring bin Laden to Afghanistan The US froze al-Haq's assets after the 9-11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

In 2007, The Daily Telegraph picked up his trail close to Tora Bora, where international forces were once again battling al-Qaeda. Local tribal leaders said he was injured in a bombing raid and smuggled back across the border to Pakistan, where he was arrested little more than four months later.

Rahimullah Yusufzai, an analyst who has interviewed senior al-Qaeda figures including bin Laden, said his release was a puzzle. "They could only have released him with the say so of America or if maybe there really was no evidence or he was not that important," he said. It raises fresh questions about the country's commitment to tackling terrorism.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2011 07:26

ramana wrote:5. Can destabilize the political system so there is action paralysis.

Wait they don't need that as India is capable of doing it without any external prodding.

Seriously try to map scandals/skeletons rattling with when TSP felt unsafe since last 40 years


It makes sense for a destabilized political system to clamp down on internal problems by declaring an external threat. In fact all this talk of "A-monkey-tamasha" and "Appear less threatening" to Pakistan seems to indicate great confidence within India despite all the sundry scams and fights. Yesterday we had power for two hours on and 1 hour off in silly-con plateau Bangalore because there is no coal coming to KA from AP due to Telengana stir. And the Home minister is being targeted for resignation. Fun stuff.

I think Pakistan seems less threatening and I am certain Pakistan's spat with the US is being seen with as much amusement in India as I feel. The US has consistently misread Pakistan. I believe the US is now caught in a cleft. After the tongue lahing rant that Mullen gave te US can hardly sell the idea of filling Pakistan with deadly weapons. But becaus they stand to "los an allly" as Mr Khar's tongue lashing indicated the US can't pull away. After blaming Pakistan publicly the US can't actually say "OK we need to fight India", Oh I agree that the paralysis caused by laughter may make India keel over.

CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6636
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby CRamS » 29 Sep 2011 07:28



Looks like SaranJi pulled this last bit off from his musharaff


There is no market anymore for Pakistan’s perennial lament: “We are like this only. Blame India.” The international community can no longer deflect the responsibility for dealing with the threat Pakistan poses to international peace and security on to India. India-Pakistan hyphenation is truly dead and buried. Amen.



Coming from a former diplomat, this is pitiful. Clearly, he has not been following US down hill sking post Mullen speak, and policy maker, commentators brazenly justifying TSP's use of Hakkani and pigLeTs to counter Indian "threat". Equal equal is far from dead, its alive and kicking with additional doses of v1agra.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21109
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Prem » 29 Sep 2011 07:36

US tightens the noose around LeT; sanctions two of its leaders
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/us-ti ... 110928.htm
The Obama [ Images ] administration continued to tighten the noose around the Pakistan-based, Inter Services Intelligence-supported terrorist organisation, the Lashkar-e-Tayiba [ Images ] -- responsible for the horrific 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks [ Images ] -- by sanctioning two of its leaders and founding members Zafar Iqbal and Hafiz Abdul Salam Bhuttavi. The US State Department in December 2001 designated the LeT as a Foreign Terrorist Organisation, but on Wednesday, the US Department of Treasury threw the book at Iqbal and Bhuttavi saying they are "two of LeT's most significant leaders."David S Cohen, under secretary for terrorism and financial intelligence, said, "Over the past 20 years, Iqbal and Bhuttavi have been responsible for fundraising, recruitment, and indoctrination of operatives. By targeting the core of LeT's leadership, today's action aims to degrade its ability to facilitate its terrorist activities."The treasury described the LeT as "a Pakistan-based terrorist group with links to the Al Qaeda [ Images ] network and its former leader Osama bin Laden [ Images ] that is responsible for the November 2008 Mumbai attacks and July 2006 Mumbai train bombings."In May 2005, LeT was also added on to the UN's list of international terrorist organisations, and in April 2006, the State Department designated Jamaat-ud-Daawa -- an alias of LET -- also as an FTO and the JuD was added on to the UN list as an alias of the LeT in December 2008.As a result of the treasury department's action, Americans are now prohibited from engaging in transactions with Iqbal and Bhuttavi and any assets they may have in the US are frozen.The US said that Iqbal, has served in various LeT/JuD senior leadership positions and was once considered LeT/JuD's second-in-command. As of late 2010, it said, Iqbal was in charge of LeT/JuD's finance department.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2011 07:39

Jaspreet wrote:
The US can get directly involved in a war to defeat India...Truth and accuracy are useless things for good forum arguments.


Shiv,
But there can be a defeat other than military. Why should the US have to try to defeat India militarily? US knows pretty well what Pakistan wants, and that is to be accepted as one of "them" - them meaning the westerners. If US were to declare two minutes after I click submit on this post that Pakistanis are in fact their close cousins and will be liberally granted visas to US you can bet Pakistanis will heave such a huge sigh of relief and superiority that it'll cause a tsunami in the Pakistan Ocean, previously called Indian ocean two minutes ago.

Once that is done, aid or no aid, LeT and Hackaney will start winding down.


Well Jaspreet the wisdom of your words could not have come more poignantly through. The US's "victory without war" is clearly visible for all to see and n the 30 odd minutes since my post and the 15 minutes since yours, neither has India declared an intent to disarm to help the US with Pakistan, nor has the US declared is ability to love Pakistan again.

The US actually has very few options as long as it continues with its desire to prop up the Pakistani military and prevent that military from becoming less powerful. The US is on very weak ground here. The big sea change from a mere 5 years ago is that the negative role and greed of the Paki military are openly being refererd to in the media and in Pakistan itself. Note that even when I was writing my e book - the greed of the Paki military was a closely guarded "hush hush" secret and I had to dig up references from Ayesha Sidiqa Agha and a few others as "evidence" to show that the Paki military is greedy and hogging a40-60% of Paki resources. It's no secret now. It is no secret also that the US's main ally is not "Pakistan" or its 180 million people but the Army, which is admired to an extent, but where Pakis resent the army they can do nothing, as the assassination of Saleem Shezad and the subsequent shutting up of other journalists shows.

If we want to cut the crap and talk facts, a US victory would be survival of the Pakistan army with defeat of only those militias who are anti US. This ain't gonna happen even if the US does all the things you say. I think we on here admire the US a lot more for what it has given us bankrupt middle/third class Indians than the RAPE who are wealthy enough to flit between Pakistan, Europe, Gulf states, even India and the US only if need be. US power does not extend as far as we have pushed it to be on here,
Last edited by shiv on 29 Sep 2011 08:24, edited 1 time in total.


Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21109
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Prem » 29 Sep 2011 07:46

Abhe Gadhe Kiyani, Kidhar Hai Hackani? Yeh group mujhe de de Harami, Nahi tho milege na koi Chavani.Na Amriki,Na Uropee, na hi Japani

U.S. Reviewing Whether to Designate Haqqani Network as Terrorist
Adding the Haqqani group to the list of terrorist organizations might lead to demands that Pakistan be declared a state sponsor of terrorism. That would put at risk Pakistan’s cooperation as the U.S. tries to snuff out al-Qaeda’s core and other militants in the country’s tribal areas.
Clinton, speaking to reporters at the State Department, did not address the alleged connection between the Haqqani network and Pakistan’s intelligence service. She said the U.S. has had “a lot of tangible results” from anti-terrorism cooperation with Pakistan, including moves against al-Qaeda.State Sponsors
Designating Pakistan a state sponsor of terrorism would put it in the august company of only four other countries -- Cuba, Iran, Sudan and Syria -- and might trigger a nationalist backlash in Pakistan. It would require halting U.S. aid to Pakistan, force the U.S. to oppose World Bank loans to Pakistan, and end cooperation between the two countries in fighting terrorism and trying to stabilize Afghanistan.Naming Pakistan a sponsor of terrorism “would turn it into a pariah state,” Robert Lamb, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, said in a telephone interview. “That would complicate a lot of aspects of the relationship, which is complicated enough already. It’s ugly, but it’s not unsalvageable.”The administration is under new pressure to designate the Haqqanis a terrorist organization alongside 49 others, including al-Qaeda, Lebanon’s Hezbollah, and Hamas, the Palestinian Islamist group that controls the Gaza Strip.
Congressional Pressure
After Mullen testified to the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Dianne Feinstein, a California Democrat and chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, wrote Secretary of State Hillary Clinton that the Haqqani group “meets the standards for designation” as a terrorist organization. So far, said congressional officials, Clinton hasn’t responded.
“I think there’s going to be increasing congressional pressure on them to list the Haqqani network as a foreign terrorist organization,” said Lisa Curtis, a former CIA analyst and now a senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation policy group in Washington.
“If we know that the Haqqani network is behind these major attacks on U.S. interests and we fail to confront them, that is a signal of weakness and it simply invites more attacks,” she said.
Nuland and other administration and military officials signaled a reluctance to sanction Pakistan.
‘"Common Breast'’
Pentagon Press Secretary George Little said yesterday that the U.S. wants to “maintain a relationship with Pakistan that’s grounded in common breast to include going after terrorists that threaten both countries.”“There are differences from time to time,” Little told reporters at the Pentagon. “Those differences have been made public, and we continue to discuss those differences in private. We look forward to working with the Pakistanis to try to resolve them.”Today, Little took a harder line, telling reporters that Defense Secretary Leon Panetta agrees with Mullen’s testimony. “The Secretary and Chairman both agree” there are “links between elements of the Pakistan government and Haqqani network,” Little said.
“That includes the ISI,” Little said. “That must end.”Pakistani
military officials told reporters in Islamabad on Sept. 25 that they had decided not to take action against the Haqqani group because their forces are stretched

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21109
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Prem » 29 Sep 2011 07:53

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b11d7154 ... z1ZGwCB2L5
Intelligence adds to US-Pakistan strains
When militants from the anti-American Haqqani network attacked the US embassy in Kabul with rocket-propelled grenades this month, US intelligence services were listening in.
The insurgents were talking by phone with their handlers in Pakistan throughout and after the attack the mobile phones they used were recovered, leaving US intelligence analysts with “excellent information” about just who was involved, according to people with knowledge of the incident. The information reinforced suspicions that the Inter-Services Intelligence, Pakistan’s main spy agency, was supporting the network, and contributed to claims by Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, just two days later that at the group was a “veritable arm” of the ISI.Adm Mullen’s comments have prompted angry denials from Pakistan’s government and military. But the resulting furore has also exposed the shortcomings in Washington’s Pakistan policy, analysts say.The Obama administration was already doing some soul-searching following the sharp deterioration in relations precipitated by the US’s surprise raid on Osama bin Laden’s compound near Islamabad in May.But the attack on the Kabul embassy was “the straw that broke the camel’s back,” says Bruce Riedel, a former intelligence agent who chaired President Barack Obama’s first review on Afghanistan and Pakistan.High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. US officials who have met Adm Mullen in Pakistan and Afghanistan in recent months say he had increasingly felt he was getting “jerked around” by officials such as General Ashfaq Kayani, the powerful head of Pakistan’s military, and Lieutenant General Ahmed Shuja Pasha, head of the ISI.Even though Adm Mullen might have gone “a little off the reservation” with his comments, analysts say, he is not alone in having that view.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21109
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Prem » 29 Sep 2011 07:58

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/09 ... -clueless/
Breaking: Nobody Knows What to Do About Pakistan

Notice they’re not saying he’s wrong, because Pakistani sponsorship of the Haqqanis (and the Taliban) is one of those open secrets that everyone can discuss except for senior government officials. They’re just saying that it was inconvenient for Mullen to be, y’know, truthful.Why’s it inconvenient? Because the Obama administration has done everything it can think of to coax Pakistan out of its sponsorship of insurgents, and nothing’s worked. Massive military help to deal with last year’s floods? Nothing. A multi-billion dollar civilian aid package? Nothing. Military equipment running the gamut from night-vision goggles to C-130 cargo planes to anti-armor missiles? Nothing. Unilateral raids that kill Osama bin Laden? Worse than nothing.ou can’t blame U.S. politicians for feeling frustrated. But you can blame them for throwing temper tantrums in response. That’s what Sen. Lindsay Graham did. “If they continue to embrace terrorism as a part of their national strategy,” Graham said of the Pakistanis, “we’re going to have to put all options on the table, including defending our troops.”There is a strategy that might — might — result in a massive and positive payoff: defusing tensions between Pakistan and its arch-rival, India. (No, sporadic diplomatic engagement aimed at keeping the peace in Kashmir doesn’t count.) Pakistan maintains its ties to terrorist groups to supplement its relative weakness against arch-enemy India. So maybe Washington could try sponsoring peace talks between India and Pakistan. Not that it’s worked out well between, say, Israel and the Palestinians. But it’s a better strategy than constant feuding, mutual subterfuge and sub rosa military cooperation. And if it works, it’s a game-changer.More likely, nothing will change. Pakistan will continue to sponsor insurgents. The U.S. will continue drone strikes. And the aid will keep flowing between Washington and Islamabad. There will be the occasional violent accident. No one will be pleased and everyone will act like hypocrites. Mullen might be done playing the game. But in Washington and Islamabad, only the players change.

(No one knew what to do with Gordian Knot till Alex cut it in one blow.Do we get to see Obama The Alexander doing same to cut Poaqnot)

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53934
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby ramana » 29 Sep 2011 08:26

CRS, To me Shyam Saran is saying that India doesn't want to be the Paki excuse.

---
Even now the US doesnt know if Hackany group is a terrorist organization! :eek: or :mrgreen:

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2011 08:35

Major U.S. Arms Sales and Grants to Pakistan Since 2001
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/pakarms.pdf
Major post-2001 defense supplies provided, or soon to be provided, under FMF include:
! eight P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft and their refurbishment (valued at $474 million, two
delivered);
! about 6,312 TOW anti-armor missiles ($186 million; at least 2,007 delivered);
! more than 5,600 military radio sets ($163 million);
! six AN/TPS-77 surveillance radars ($100 million);
! six C-130E transport aircraft and their refurbishment ($76 million);
! one ex-Oliver Hazard Perry class missile frigate via EDA ($65 million);
! 20 AH-1F Cobra attack helicopters via EDA ($48 million, 12 refurbished and delivered); and
! 121 refurbished TOW missile launchers ($25 million).
Supplies paid for with a mix of Pakistani national funds and FMF include:
! up to 60 Mid-Life Update kits for F-16A/B combat aircraft (valued at $891 million, with $477
million of this in FMF, Pakistan currently plans to purchase 35 such kits); and
! 115 M-109 self-propelled howitzers ($87 million, with $53 million in FMF).
Notable items paid or to be paid for entirely with Pakistani national funds include:
! 18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52 combat aircraft (valued at $1.43 billion; 17 delivered to date);
! F-16 armaments including 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles; 1,450 2,000-pound bombs; 500
JDAM Tail Kits for gravity bombs; and 1,600 Enhanced Paveway laser-guided kits, also for
gravity bombs ($629 million);
! 100 Harpoon anti-ship missiles ($298 million);
! 500 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles ($95 million); and
! six Phalanx Close-In Weapons System naval guns ($80 million).
Major articles transferred via EDA include:
! 14 F-16A/B combat aircraft;
! 59 T-37 military trainer jets’ and
! 550 M-113 armored personnel carriers.
The Pentagon has notified Congress on the possible transfer to Pakistan of three P-3B aircraft as EDA grants that
would be modified to carry the E-2C Hawkeye airborne early warning suite in a deal worth up to $855 million,
but this effort has not progressed beyond the notification stage. Under Coalition Support Funds (part of the
Pentagon budget), Pakistan has received 26 Bell 412 utility helicopters, along with related parts and maintenance,
valued at $235 million. Under 1206, Frontier Corps, and Pakistan Counterinsurgency Capability Fund
authorities, the United States has provided four Mi-17 multirole helicopters (another six were provided
temporarily at no cost), two King Air 350 surveillance aircraft, 450 vehicles for the Frontier Corps, 20 Buffalo
explosives detection and disposal vehicles, hundreds of M-141 Bunker Defeat Munitions, helicopter spare parts,
sophisticated explosives detectors, night vision devices, radios, body armor, helmets, first aid kits, litters, and
large amounts of other individual soldier equipment. The United States has also funded and provided training
for several hundred (at least 370) Pakistani military officers.
Source: U.S. Department of Defense

Venkarl
BRFite
Posts: 932
Joined: 27 Mar 2008 02:50
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Venkarl » 29 Sep 2011 08:37

Where is Kirikiristine Unfair?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53934
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby ramana » 29 Sep 2011 08:39

Still cant take away the Paki fear!

Note the supply of JDAM and LGB kits exceeds supply of dumb bombs. So most likely the Pakis will supply the excess to PRC for reverse engineering and US will be surprised again!

The training wont matter as those are all future spies.

Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3021
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dipanker » 29 Sep 2011 08:44

Prem wrote:http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/09/pakistan-clueless/
Breaking: Nobody Knows What to Do About Pakistan

(No one knew what to do with Gordian Knot till Alex cut it in one blow.Do we get to see Obama The Alexander doing same to cut Poaqnot)


Obama is proving that he is a closet Paki.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2011 08:51

A huge proportion of the arms transfers to Pakistan were clearly aimed at increasing the self-confidence of the Paki armed forces vis a vis their "genuine defence needs" against India. And, after all that, India still has to "look less threatening" to Pakistan. :roll:

Lookee how much it helped the US. Even in the last 2 days after Mullen's rant people in the US have been saying that Pakistan has been very helpful against Al Qaeda. Only goes to show that he US recognizes that there is a sucker born every minute and most of them seem to be born in the USA.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53934
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby ramana » 29 Sep 2011 08:52

Dipanker,
Not really. They didn't understand how shook up TSP will be after Abortabad raid. So they are makning amends to prevent state failure.

The same Congressmen screaming for Do Nothing's scalp will scream "who lost TSP?"

So Ombaba is stepping back from the abyss.

Welcome to the club.

Dilbu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6333
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 22:53
Location: Deep in the badlands of BRFATA

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 29 Sep 2011 09:01

TSP is like dog poo lying at the front door. India is hoping US will make it go away and US is hoping they will somehow get India to do the job. Neither wants to get their hands dirrty.

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 597
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Y I Patel » 29 Sep 2011 09:05

Johann wrote:Whether they like it or not, as I've said here for a number of years the US is heading for a relationship with Pakistan that looks more like what it has with countries like Syria, Iran and Sudan. Four years ago few here could imagine it, and every passing year it gets a little less hard to believe.


Maybe, if there were no time pressure. Right now US is pressing with one eye on the clock, while Pak is trying to run it down. So the dynamic is taking on a life of its own.

Only way to break out of this spiral is for one side to walk away - US by accepting a Vietnam without any face saving, or Pak by giving up on all of its best ROI in Afghanistan. In all likelihood US will feel pressure to show gains, and then Pak will need to keep demonstrating that it is still in control. It's like a train wreck in slow motion, has been since 2009.

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13099
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby negi » 29 Sep 2011 09:06

I am now confused as to which analogy is better GD's (stubborn poo in the toilet which refues to get flushed) or Mahdi's (pile in Unkil's Musharraf) or Dilbu's. :rotfl:

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 597
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Y I Patel » 29 Sep 2011 09:08

And meanwhile both sides are is secretly hoping for India to commit a technical foul to bail them out. Hence the chanting of Kashmir mantra. Best thing for India to do is to chant louder about peace than everyone else. Putting some heart into the chanting might even pay dividends as the game plays itself out!

Venkarl
BRFite
Posts: 932
Joined: 27 Mar 2008 02:50
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Venkarl » 29 Sep 2011 09:13

ramana wrote:Still cant take away the Paki fear!


The only way to get rid of that "Fear" is by "Submission" :mrgreen: what say Paklurks?

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8216
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Gus » 29 Sep 2011 09:15

One news report has ferdaus using the name 'bollywood'. May very well turn out to be paki or bd

Venkarl
BRFite
Posts: 932
Joined: 27 Mar 2008 02:50
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Venkarl » 29 Sep 2011 09:22

I don't think he is a paki, I'll be glad if I am disproved

Linky

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3512
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Rudradev » 29 Sep 2011 09:42

Y I Patel wrote:And meanwhile both sides are is secretly hoping for India to commit a technical foul to bail them out. Hence the chanting of Kashmir mantra. Best thing for India to do is to chant louder about peace than everyone else. Putting some heart into the chanting might even pay dividends as the game plays itself out!


You know YIP, I'm not really so sure about that anymore.

Yes, George Pervertovich has aggressively raised the K-word in one of his recent rants. Even Mullen has mumbled something about "Kashmir unlocks the whole region."

On the other hand. The US is certainly not doing as much as it once did regularly to pressure India on Kashmir. Yes, you have people from there meeting Hurry-Rats every now and then. However, clamping down on Ghulam Nabi Fai is something that would have been unthinkable in Robin Raphel's day... and can you imagine what a stink she would have raised about the "Unmarked Graves" allegation? This is a country that, as recently as 1999, was happy to blame the Chittisinghpora Massacre on "Indian Army" or "Hindu Militants." Yet, the "Unmarked Graves" sob-story has gone practically unnoticed, this time around.

This may be for one of four reasons:

1) The US is convinced (rightly or wrongly) that the GOI is indeed sincere about finding a "solution" to Kashmir (i.e. making compromises to Pakistan) and wants to be "encouraging" the process with positive inducements. They think India will eventually hand over Kashmir to Pakistan of our own accord, after which they will claim credit for their "diplomatic good offices" being involved in the process, and win brownie points with the Pakistanis.

2) The US really doesn't want Kashmir to become (inevitably) an extension of FATA/Chitral/Northern Areas, where Bin Laden once roamed free... or a Chinese outpost for that matter. Also, Washington has finally seen enough of Pakistan's behaviour to realize that this is inevitable should Pakistan gain any traction in the Indian state of J&K. Besides, 7,000,000,000 Indian soldiers along the LOC and IB are a useful pressure point for the US to use against Pakistan. Therefore, US is quite happy to have India keep Kashmir, as long as India makes chai-biskoot noises about talks that are convenient for the US.

3) The US doesn't want India to keep Kashmir... it wants an independent Kashmir to form eventually, one that becomes a US client state in a strategic location, replacing what Pakistan used to be. However, they don't want Kashmir to go to Pakistan either, so they are laying off for now.

4) The US has realized that it can't do a damn thing about the Kashmir situation except use people like GN Fai as leverage against Pakistan. They have essentially given up on "making India give up Kashmir" as too difficult a project, one that they can't realistically hope to fulfill.

I wonder what the truth is.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21109
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Prem » 29 Sep 2011 10:07

Europe has Poland, Indo Pacific region now have Pooland bordering India , China, Afghanland , Persia and Balochistan. Poobah's very own official Pooland .

menon s
BRFite
Posts: 713
Joined: 01 May 2010 09:51
Location: Bangalore

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby menon s » 29 Sep 2011 10:19

Musharaff, Frustrated!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... istan.html
“The United States doesn’t understand the sensitivities of Pakistan - that the United States is in league with India, that Indians are allowed to do whatever they are doing in Afghanistan.”


Wonder what in the hell our guys are doing in Kabul! So our intelligence agencies WORK? oh my god! :eek:

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3512
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Rudradev » 29 Sep 2011 10:25

By the way, re: George Pervertovich, who recently said the US must "recognize Pakistan's concerns about Kashmir and atrocities against Indian Muslims" or some such dung.

Pervertovich has a reputation of being biased against India, even within the State Dept. Here is a post I made several months ago, recounting my interaction with a Phoggy Bottom official. It seems to have been trashed on BRF, but I thought it was worth the re-post:


********

All,

I had the good fortune to interact with a mid-senior level Phoggy Bottom Babu in DC over the last weekend. He is at South Asia desk, quite heavily involved in negotiations with South Block, accompanied Obama to Delhi last year, etc.

Some random things to report, from his perspective, regarding US-India relations.

1) Roemer did not quit over the MRCA deal. He had been planning to quit for months, as his family did not like staying in India at all.

2) The State Dept impression of Roemer is that he is a very energetic guy but a little A.D.D.; could not focus enough to address any single issue with tenacity. South Block of course, is all about tenacity.

3) US Policy on Pakistan is likely to continue as is, for the most part. Nobody has any better ideas, at least that they're willing to talk about in public. Everything about Pakistani perfidy is known to the State Dept and has been known since 9/11. Various scenarios associated with Paki nukes are considered the biggest area of concern; in effect, my source said, the US is being blackmailed and does not have solutions with a reasonable cost-benefit ratio at present.

4) State Dept usually retains a "hangover" momentum from the previous administration's policies. During the Clinton administration, Clinton himself was generally pro-India, but State Dept was anti-India with cold warriors like Warren Christopher and Madeline Allbright in charge. Today Obama is much less actively pro-India than G.W.Bush was... but State Dept. still retains some of the momentum from the Bush/Rice days of being relatively pro-India. Only Presidents can effect a sea change in policy: State Dept are Babus who are largely in the business of implementing pre-existing policy directives rather than coming up with new ones. However, Presidents see things through the lenses of their priorities, and for Obama, India is not that big a priority as it was for GWB.

5) Important: Regarding Think Tankers/Experts, since we pay so much attention to their writings and pronouncements on BR.

Of all the South Asia experts in the US, five are considered to be top-league. Bruce Reidel, Ashley Tellis, Dan Markey, George Perkovitch and Robert Einhorn.

6) Of these five, Reidel, Tellis and Markey are the ones most often consulted by State Dept. regarding US-India policy.

Ashley Tellis is the most pro-India of them all. I must stress here, that my source told me that Ashley Tellis has done more for positive US policy on India than all the other State Dept. people combined. Whether or not you agree that the Nuclear Deal was a good thing for India, it must be recognized that Ashley Tellis was instrumental in getting it formulated and passed, and that he did this out of the most sincere personal conviction that the Nuclear Deal was a good thing for India.

In short, Ashley Tellis is as much a true son of India as a US-citizen working for the US government can possibly be. Regardless of what we think of the Nuclear Deal, he must be recognized and honoured for this. And the fact that State Dept. continues to consult him is a good sign for India.

7) Reidel and Markey are considered to be "balanced" in their views. Their opinions also carry a lot of weight. In general they are not considered to be anti-India.

8 ) George Perkovitch and Robert Einhorn are considered to be anti-India. The words used to describe Perkovitch: "he is difficult to talk to about India."

The important thing for us to realize, is that the State Dept is aware of their bias and applies a judicious amount of salt to whatever they peddle about India.

Perkovitch and Einhorn are not consulted as much as Tellis, Reidel and Markey on matters regarding India.

9) Despite how much importance we give Stephen Cohen on BRF, he was never considered a pre-eminent South Asia expert by the GOTUS, not even in the same league with the five I have mentioned. Today he is considered a has-been even among circles where he was once respected. The Pakistanis wasted their efforts by feeding him samosas fried by Begum Zia's delicate hands. Other than addressing second-rate media circuses and writing largely unheeded columns, Uneven Cohen is of not much consequence.

10) The above applies ten times as much to C. Christine Fair. The opinion in the State Dept. is that she is a "kook". (sic.) Nobody who matters pays any attention to her at all. She is marginalized, frustrated, dismissed and generally worthless... no wonder she sympathizes so much with the Pakis.

So save your heartburn when you read anything written by Uneven Cohen or Christine Unfair... nobody at State Dept. (let alone the White House) gives a $hit about them.

11) Funny. The babu I spoke to had never even heard of George Friedman or STRATFOR! :rotfl: Really, sometimes we spend a lot of effort on BRF chasing shadows and confusing their pronouncements with genuine GOTUS opinions on foreign policy.

12) Lastly, Holbrooke is largely considered to have failed in his brief all around. He was consistently stonewalled in India, and the opinion is that he was not the right diplomat for the region.

Joseph
BRFite
Posts: 135
Joined: 28 Oct 2008 07:18

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Joseph » 29 Sep 2011 10:57

Rudradev wrote:
2) The US really doesn't want Kashmir to become (inevitably) an extension of FATA/Chitral/Northern Areas, where Bin Laden once roamed free... or a Chinese outpost for that matter. Also, Washington has finally seen enough of Pakistan's behaviour to realize that this is inevitable should Pakistan gain any traction in the Indian state of J&K. Besides, 7,000,000,000 Indian soldiers along the LOC and IB are a useful pressure point for the US to use against Pakistan. Therefore, US is quite happy to have India keep Kashmir, as long as India makes chai-biskoot noises about talks that are convenient for the US.

I wonder what the truth is.



I will vote for your #2. The bin Laden raid was the pivotal moment in the relationship because the pretending by both Pakistan and the U.S. could finally stop.


U.S: Why are you supporting the Taliban?

Pakistan: India.


U.S: Why are you supporting the militants infiltrating into Kashmir?

Pakistan: India.


U.S: Why were you hiding bin Laden?

Pakistan: India?


Pakistan has used India as the reason for everything that they have been doing over the decades and the U.S. wouldn't argue the point too much. India couldn't be used as the reason for hiding bin Laden and the U.S. finally accepted the reality that Pakistan was evil and the source of the problems rather than India as Pakistan had claimed.

Yes, it has been a Lost Decade (and counting) for the U.S. in Af-Pak, but has Pakistan had a net gain from the events in Af-Pak?

They bloodied the U.S. and gained some military toys, but Pakistan has been pushed further along the path of more Islam which doesn't help in their relationships with non Muslim countries.

Within the Muslim world, Pakistan is trying to play Iran against the Saudis. The affections of Pakistan might not be as valued as the Pakistanis think they are.

Pakistan has lost the U.S. shoulder to cry on about Kashmir and India has ceded nothing in that matter over the past decade.

The country of Pakistan is quite a mess, yet the Pakistani Army would rather talk about India and the U.S. than improve the daily conditions for their fellow Pakistanis.

Pakistan needs to really cherish and celebrate this victory over the U.S. because just about everything else they have done recently has resulted in either no gain or a loss.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Theo_Fidel » 29 Sep 2011 11:14

shiv wrote:A huge proportion of the arms transfers to Pakistan were clearly aimed at increasing the self-confidence of the Paki armed forces vis a vis their "genuine defence needs" against India. And, after all that, India still has to "look less threatening" to Pakistan. :roll:


I think a lot of it was it was cheap to do so. Other than the F-16's which TSP paid for(and did not receive). The US generates a ton of surplus war equipment which it usually junks/scraps and TSP was willing to pay money for it! So why not. If we could buy off a random country such as say the Philippines for random scrap/surplus IA equipment even we may try it. Massa is nothing if not cheap. This is the #1 problem with USA involvement in this area, it has tried to do it on the Cheap.

Even to get OBL it refused boots on the ground and sent in the mercenaries. Now that it has dedicated a 100,000 troops to Afghanistan and sends $70 Billion a year here its thought process is a little more subtle and it is going after TSP. Let the USA withdraw and the loss of treasure cease and the USA will go back to trying to do this on the cheap by buying off the TSP army. They don't think about what Paki's think of them even for a minute.

Abhijit
BRFite
Posts: 529
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: Bay Area - US

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Abhijit » 29 Sep 2011 11:16

Pakistan maintains its ties to terrorist groups to supplement its relative weakness against arch-enemy India.

This b/s is being repeated by every sundry unkil official or columnist. This is completely untrue. LeT and other jihadi outfits are not a strategy to counter a conventionally superior Indian armed forces. These groups are there simply to kill Indians, mainly Hindus, in order to engineer an Indian armed response or a Hindu-Muslim riot.

member_19648
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby member_19648 » 29 Sep 2011 12:22

As per sources, India is doing a commendable job in Afghanistan, maybe not that much militarily, but by providing aid and actually trying to build the nation and its economy, already Indian style recreation centers and restaurants have opened in Kabul which was a dogma a few years back. (Indian influence). This has already been discussed here umpteen times, I am sure. Actually India has been doing this for a long time even when the US was hiding in its pajamas, partly because of which the Northern Alliance was never overrun. So, India and India only has done the good job, and even for countries like Vietnam, India has always stressed for economic development over military, so that the people can live in peace. That's why the show of gratitude when it comes to India. Uncle only supplies arms and big $$ and no one really likes uncle! Only that, the real contributions never come out, the people who have to know know it.

As for the Pakis, they will surely pay for their deeds one day, afterall everything comes a full circle. They wanted to destabilize Afghanistan for their strategic objective, so that they could have a large playground, now that violence has engulfed the whole of Pakistan and the ripples are felt by Uncle too, the partner in crime. And they keep on crying foul.

With each passing year, both the nations get weaker. Looking from a broader perspective, India, which did the good deeds is rising up, notwithstanding all the poverty and whatever slurs the west throws at it, and Uncle along with Porkis are going down the drain for all their wrongdoings. Let them harp and fight and quarrel, we will see in another 10 years, who stands where!

member_19648
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby member_19648 » 29 Sep 2011 12:26

Abhijit wrote:This b/s is being repeated by every sundry unkil official or columnist. This is completely untrue. LeT and other jihadi outfits are not a strategy to counter a conventionally superior Indian armed forces. These groups are there simply to kill Indians, mainly Hindus, in order to engineer an Indian armed response or a Hindu-Muslim riot.


Going by this logic, Uncle has the strongest armed forces in the world (disputable), so it is just for Al-Quaida to train Jihadists and sending them over to Uncle's land right!!! They only got scared by the overwhelming military prowess of Uncle.

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby rajanb » 29 Sep 2011 12:33

Just woke up. Disappointed. Am going back to sleep again. With little hope, my next awakening will be when anyone does anything substantial to the Pakis.

In the meanwhile:

a) we guys should not get taqleef @ Unkil's attitude towards us and their oft repeated stupidity of "Kashmir will solve the S. Asia problem". Have been through it since 1955

b) Mr Magoo and his band should sing the KP song from the rafters (KP=Kashmir Peace)

c) And as Shiv says a sucker is born every minute in suckerland (US of A) we should also sucker them.

Back to my lurking sleep. But hell, how much can one sleep? Wake me up when pakis go boo boo.

Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6948
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Anujan » 29 Sep 2011 12:44

Apparently India is dropping objectons to Pakistan's demand for duty free access to EU. Probably that was the reason the Paki trade minister came and dangled the MFN carrot for.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: IndraD, Pathik and 67 guests