Indian Army: News & Discussion

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 29 Sep 2011 21:24

Indian Army lost another officer Lt Khajuria in yet another encounter in Kupwara. Condolences to the bereaved.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 171696.cms

wig · Post by **wig** » 30 Sep 2011 07:03

a distinguished gentleman recounts the manner in which the Indian Army retaliates to Pak violations of the LOC, -return to kerni

The recent news regarding the return of inhabitants of Kerni to their village after a decade, brings to mind their earlier ordeal. Kerni is a village North-West of Poonch, very close to the LoC and at the lower end of a steep slope. The upper parts of the slope are in PoK, where there is a Pak Army post. At the upper end of the village and closer to the LoC is a longish barrack type structure known as Gillani’s hut.

Indian Army posts along the LoC are widely separated with large gaps between them. Kerni falls in one of those large gaps. In early nineties, the Pakistan Army crossed the LoC and occupied Gillani’s hut and built defences in the area. This aggression by the Pak Army across the LoC sent shock waves up the military channels. Pressure was built up for immediate eviction of the enemy. However, such pressures and hustling troops into premature action can be resisted at corps level. After due planning and appropriate deception measures Pak troops were evicted, but they left behind the body of a soldier and an officer. Soon after the Indian action to evict the Pak troops, ceasefire was declared by both sides.

In the presence of large crowds from both countries, these two bodies were handed over to the Pak Army at an agreed point near Poonch. Care was taken to conform to Muslim customs and military ceremonials and respect due to fallen soldiers were observed. The Indian Army established a temporary army post near Gillani’s hut. Since the Pak Army in the area was in a dominating position, it could, any time attempt to overrun the Indian post.

As expected, soon after ceasefire was lifted, the Pak Army decided to take back the area of Gillani’s hut. The Indian Army had suitably deployed artillery observation posts (arty OPs) which could pick up any activity across the LoC in the event of buildup of an attack on the Indian post. Sure enough, around midnight, the Pak Army mounted a battalion attack. However, Indian arty OPs picked up the battalion in its very early stages of the attack and let loose one of the largest artillery barrages seen or heard in peace time along the LoC in J and K. It decimated the Pak battalion. The next night Pakistan tried another attack from a different direction and this battalion too met with the same fate.

There were urgent requests from Pakistan for a ceasefire, because the Indian artillery had continued to be active and there was a problem for the Pak Army to collect their dead and wounded. Finally, ceasefire was accepted. After this incident, where the Pak Army had suffered very heavy casualties, peace in this area prevailed for many years.

Though Pakistan had carried out intense shelling in the area of Kerni then also, the inhabitants of this village had braved that onslaught and did not leave their homes. Hope, hereafter Pakistan will let these villagers live in peace.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110930/edit.htm#5

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Sep 2011 08:22

^^ How does news of entire battalions being wiped out miss the DDM and PDM( Paki Dork Media)?

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Sep 2011 08:49

In the 2G din, how many mourned this martyred soldier?

Around 1:30 pm on September 26, the 18 Grenadiers regiment of the Indian Army and the Jammu and Kashmir police launched an operation inside the Miliyal forests in Kupwara's Trehgam area.
Twenty-six-year-old Lieutenant Sushil Khajuria was part of the team that was scrambled to take on terrorists who were trying to infiltrate from across the border.
The mountainous, densely-forested terrain provided the perfect cover and vantage points for the heavily-armed terrorists.

Gunfire boomed as soon as the army made contact with the terrorists. Four days on, a tale of heroism emerged from ground zero, where the encounter continues.

On September 28 morning, Lieutenant Khajuria, who joined the army only last year, was killed while trying to evacuate injured colleagues from the line of fire.

Commissioned on March 20, 2010 to the Army Service Corps, the young officer was attached to the 18 Grenadiers regiment.
Born on August 28, 1985, at Sangwali village in the Samba district of Jammu and Kashmir, two of Lieutenant Khajuria's brothers are also in the army.

The loss of their son would not have come at a more unfortunate moment for the young officer's parents.

The family was in the midst of the preparations for Khajuria's wedding when the news of his demise came in.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 30 Sep 2011 12:14

2G din?

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Sep 2011 12:53

^^ I think author meant that all the news has been hogged by the 2G story and this man's sacrifice went unnoticed in all this din of the scam...

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 30 Sep 2011 12:57

No, its what BR jingos use here , right? to say Day

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Sep 2011 13:02

He he...that is literal translation of the word day from hindi ( "din") and is BRF spl onlee....
This "din" in the article refers to: Din meaning

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 30 Sep 2011 13:09

sum wrote:In the 2G din, how many mourned this martyred soldier?

Commissioned on March 20, 2010 to the Army Service Corps, the young officer was attached to the 18 Grenadiers regiment.
Born on August 28, 1985, at Sangwali village in the Samba district of Jammu and Kashmir, two of Lieutenant Khajuria's brothers are also in the army.

The loss of their son would not have come at a more unfortunate moment for the young officer's parents.

The family was in the midst of the preparations for Khajuria's wedding when the news of his demise came in.

I am bit disturbed by this news as well as that of Lt. Navdeep Singh last month. I was there in OTA during their POP. The day before that my cousin's fiancee died in an accident and everyone in the family was very sad about that. My mind was full of thoughts about meaninglessness of life and watching the POP that morning infact I was thinking that few from the group may become generals and few may die a heros death. But the news that 2 already sacrificed their life within 6 months is very disturbing. I havent seen the Lt's photo but still remember one guy who was sitting next to me with his brother who was a Captain.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 30 Sep 2011 14:06

rajeshks wrote: I am bit disturbed by this news as well as that of Lt. Navdeep Singh last month. I was there in OTA during their POP. The day before that my cousin's fiancee died in an accident and everyone in the family was very sad about that. My mind was full of thoughts about meaninglessness of life and watching the POP that morning infact I was thinking that few from the group may become generals and few may die a heros death. But the news that 2 already sacrificed their life within 6 months is very disturbing. I havent seen the Lt's photo but still remember one guy who was sitting next to me with his brother who was a Captain.

A hero's death, indeed.. My condolences to the family..
A quick question though, don't the officers generally come to Kasmir for COIN after serving 1-2 years in their parent arms??

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 30 Sep 2011 15:05

Indian Army parachute regiment sainiks: TFTA video

Badass

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Sep 2011 15:26

Bala Vignesh wrote:<SNIP> A quick question though, don't the officers generally come to Kasmir for COIN after serving 1-2 years in their parent arms??

What is parent arm?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2011 15:40

one has to give credit to natgeo and discovery for improving the std of our videos related to defence!

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 30 Sep 2011 15:42

rohitvats wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:<SNIP> A quick question though, don't the officers generally come to Kasmir for COIN after serving 1-2 years in their parent arms??
What is parent arm?

The Regiment or the Corps they are originally commissioned into. 20% of the RR is supposed to come from armor and artillery, and another 20% from the support services corps.

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 30 Sep 2011 17:23

Bala Vignesh wrote: A hero's death, indeed.. My condolences to the family..
A quick question though, don't the officers generally come to Kasmir for COIN after serving 1-2 years in their parent arms??

I feel its the wild enthusiasm of war/encounter combined with inexperience that drives the guys to take risks and in the process may get killed also. I used to go inside the OTA during weekends with my friend who was posted there. Though i feel proud about the cadets sometimes i felt that they are just kids. I respect the bravery shown by young officers(<1 years exp) in all the wars, kargil and on COIN operations but may be the COs has to ensure proper breifing before sending them to handle the pigs.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Sep 2011 18:00

^^
And what makes you think that the newly commissioned Officers are just sent to operations to be slaughtered by their callous COs? Do you think that the senior Officers are so dumb that they don't understand the disadvantages of inexperience? That they don't even "brief their men properly"?

Believe me you, the obvious fact that an inexperienced soldier will be nervous and jumpy on his first couple of operations is not such a brilliant realization that it has dawned only upon you. Everyone realizes that and takes proper measures to prevent it.

Every Officer first goes to Corps Battle school before going to CI Ops. The training there is extremely thorough and mimics the actual operating conditions with high accuracy. But even after that, no inexperienced and newly commissioned Officer is straight away made a platoon commander in Operations. First, he is "blooded" under an experienced JCO or another senior Officer in actual operations. Only when he has acquired sufficient experience and nerve, that the Officer is tasked with greater responsibilities.

CI Ops are dangerous in the best of situation, but when things are not to your advantage, it can be deadly for anyone. Experienced brave men ranging from JCOs to even Col have sacrificed their lives. So, while you say that you respect their bravery, you sure have of showing that by calling them unprofessional. Your statement sounds very similar to "Yeh Mig-21 pilots plane hosh mein nahi josh mein chalate hain."

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Sep 2011 18:01

ParGha wrote:
rohitvats wrote: What is parent arm?
The Regiment or the Corps they are originally commissioned into. 20% of the RR is supposed to come from armor and artillery, and another 20% from the support services corps.

ParGha,

I know about that. The question from BG was in different context (from what I can infer) - that the concerned officer was in COIN Ops with only 1 year of service. I asked that question to him so that he comes out with the premise on which the question was based. Because, the premise itself wrong - and all that adds up in the end.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 30 Sep 2011 18:25

rohitvats wrote: The question from BG was in different context (from what I can infer) - that the concerned officer was in COIN Ops with only 1 year of service. I asked that question to him so that he comes out with the premise on which the question was based. Because, the premise itself wrong - and all that adds up in the end.

Rohit Sir,
My question was based on the fact that most army officers who are deputed to the RR/COIN are deputed after 2-3 years after commissioning and serving in their parent arm(Infantry, Armoured, Artillery, etc). Its what i recollect from a conversation i had with an AAC officer on a train journey.

So if i am wrong, please to pardon and enlighten me.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 30 Sep 2011 19:41

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 30 Sep 2011 19:45

^From media reports it can be ascertained that Lt Navdeep Singh and Lt Sushil Khajuria were in infantry battalions in Kashmir at the time of their fatal encounters and not in Rashtriya Rifles. Probably they were in infantry battalions which were in turn engaged in COIN/CT in the second tier of the defence along line of control.
It can also be inferred from the reports that the battalions of Rashtriya Rifles are in COIN/CT but in the hinterland. It is true that officers seconded to these battalions from any arm/service, are at least two to three years old in service.
Also remember that officers commissioned to services have to do an attachment with infantry battalions immediately on commission. The battalions are usually(well always) in one of the areas with COIN/CT, LC/LAC or high altitude. The period of attachment varies for different services and this in no way precludes the possibility of a tenure in Rashtriya Rifles later. Lt Navdeep was in fact commissioned in AOC and Lt Khajuria in ASC. Both were in attachment with respective battalions.

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 30 Sep 2011 20:13

Gaur wrote:^^
And what makes you think that the newly commissioned Officers are just sent to operations to be slaughtered by their callous COs? Do you think that the senior Officers are so dumb that they don't understand the disadvantages of inexperience? That they don't even "brief their men properly"? Believe me you, the obvious fact that an inexperienced soldier will be nervous and jumpy on his first couple of operations is not such a brilliant realization that it has dawned only upon you. Everyone realizes that and takes proper measures to prevent it.

Every Officer first goes to Corps Battle school before going to CI Ops. The training there is extremely thorough and mimics the actual operating conditions with high accuracy. But even after that, no inexperienced and newly commissioned Officer is straight away made a platoon commander in Operations. First, he is "blooded" under an experienced JCO or another senior Officer in actual operations. Only when he has acquired sufficient experience and nerve, that the Officer is tasked with greater responsibilities.

CI Ops are dangerous in the best of situation, but when things are not to your advantage, it can be deadly for anyone. Experienced brave men ranging from JCOs to even Col have sacrificed their lives. So, while you say that you respect their bravery, you sure have of showing that by calling them unprofessional. Your statement sounds very similar to "Yeh Mig-21 pilots plane hosh mein nahi josh mein chalate hain."

I understand what you are saying. my statement was more from a pained heart than any accusation. consider Lt Navdeep's case.. From what i read from news papers he attended Corps Battle school just weeks before he was killed. The operation was based on prior intelligence input and the ambush was laid in advance. rather than allowing him to lead such a big operation he could have been send as a 2-in-c along with a senior officer. there is no replacement for experience and exposure. all i meant is this. am not blaming his senior officers, am sure they will have a valid reason for their decision. everything was as per text book till the engagement started. he did a great job but the country lost a young officer.

the first time i felt this pain was when one of my friend lost his childhood best friend to a stray bullet few years back. we were waiting for PARA SF stories instead we got the news of his death. all of us were from the same small city, same age and was nourishing the dream of wearing olive green. my friend later wrote in rediff about the fallen officer who himself was a big fan of a colonel from the same neighborhood who is still independent india's highest decorated soldier for gallantry. both the colonel and captain got Ashok Chakra posthumously. but seeing a guy in your friend circle dying so young was very painful for us. same with Navdeep or Sushil, though i dont know them personally they were among the group of guys i watched for many days. so i felt very sad when the news came out.

you are right i know its like saying "Yeh Mig-21 pilots plane hosh mein nahi josh mein chalate hain.". no wonder why i failed to get through SSB

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Sep 2011 20:23

A School Remembers It's First Martyr

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Sep 2011 20:42

rajeshksji,
Fair enough and I do feel for your pain but the sad fact is that experience can only be gained through exposure. Now, I don't know the particulars of both the cases. But in general, Officers indeed do not lead men into operations early on. They are first made to learn the ropes by a senior JCO or another Officer. But just because they are not leading a platoon doesn't mean that they are out of harm's way. Unfortunately, CI ops take place in highly hazardous conditions and the learning curve can be fatal. That doesn't make it any less sad, but the learning curve is unavoidable nonetheless.

But even if a young Officer is leading an operation, that may not mean that he is inexperienced. Who knows how many operations he has already been part of? A failed operation hurts the unit as much as anyone else and the decision to give charge of an operation to a young Lt is not taken lightly. It is only after the nerves and josh has settled down that an Officer is trusted with this responsibility.
All I am saying is that, without knowing the exact situation on ground, it is very unreasonable of us to comment like that.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Sep 2011 21:07

Bala Vignesh wrote: Rohit Sir,
My question was based on the fact that most army officers who are deputed to the RR/COIN are deputed after 2-3 years after commissioning and serving in their parent arm(Infantry, Armoured, Artillery, etc). Its what i recollect from a conversation i had with an AAC officer on a train journey.

So if i am wrong, please to pardon and enlighten me.

The premise as given above (for the question asked earlier) is exactly as I had thought.

The above is true but not applicable to this case. Apart from RR and other troops operating in hinterland in COIN, there are Infantry Battalions manning the LoC in depth. Apart from their main mandate of guarding the LoC, they will undertake COIN Ops as well in their AOR - though the scope would be relatively limited. The said officer was commisioned into the ASC and attached to a battalion of The Grenadiers - as is the norm. And this attachment is more often than not with paltans in forward areas.

ParGha has already explained the RR structure - where 20% strength comes from other arms as well as Corps.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Oct 2011 15:43

85 Armoured Regiment honoured by Army chief

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Oct 2011 08:27

After "Pine prahaar" and "Vajra Prahaar", time for 21 corps to have a lookie at the Pakis:
Indian Army To Hold Massive Exercise Along Pakistan Border

Mobilising over 20,000 troops and over 200 tanks, the Indian Army will hold a massive exercise in the winters along the western border with Pakistan involving the elite 21 Strike Corps.

"The 21 Strike Corps under the Southern Command will hold its routine exercise in the western deserts in Pokharan in November-December time-frame," Press Trust of India (PTI) quoted army officials as saying here.

The exercise will be part of the Army's routine wargames under which it validates and fine-tunes its war-fighting concepts and doctrines.

During the exercise, the Army troops will also practice joint operations, with the Indian Air Force fighters and transport aircraft also taking part in the wargames to showcase their fire power.

"The exercise will involve precision munition and advance surveillance systems to achieve a greater degree of network centric capability," they said.

After its experience in 'Operation Parakram', the Indian Army has been practising manoeuvres to reduce the time taken to mobilise its troops to attack enemy formations swiftly.

The wargames come soon after the army successfully carried out two exercises in the summer. Exercise 'Vijayee Bhava' involving the 2 Strike Corps was carried out in the Mahajan ranges in Rajasthan whereas 'Pine Prahar' was held in the plains of Punjab by the Jalandhar-based 11 Vajra Corps.

chilarai · Post by **chilarai** » 03 Oct 2011 09:16

Indian Army gets its 1st woman jawan

NEW DELHI: Outperforming her male counterparts in the physical tests, 35-year-old Sapper Shanti Tigga joined the 969 Railway Engineer Regiment of the Territorial Army . A mother of two, she is the first woman jawan.

member_19805 · Post by **member_19805** » 04 Oct 2011 15:23

Rahul M wrote:I recall seeing tanks, probably T-55 regularly around panagarh station on the rail wagons. this was early 90's. any idea which unit ? part of an inf div's organic tank regiment ?

The Tks were either to be collected or sent back by the units from the depot in Panagarh....71 AR and 63 Cav Indep Sqn ....both were part of 23 Inf Div.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Oct 2011 16:41

Guys there is a little bit of truth to all the statements

some die because they got too much josh when caution would have sufficed

Sometimes the operation is a bit too complex for a young officer to be sent in and friends of mine have mentioned examples where they believe a Major should have gone along. Of course with the shortage of officers sometimes there is no one which ends up with a seniot officer going and then if he gets killed all of us again are plunged into breast beating.

of course sometimes there is no explanation why things can happen - one guy runs through a hail of fire and emerges unscathed and another gets killed by a ricochet.

it is a hard terrain so anything can happen

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 04 Oct 2011 23:19

I know that this is not the right place, but I couldn't think of the appropriate thread for this. So, mods please move this post if needed.

India agrees to train, equip Afgan Army: Sources
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india ... herstories

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Oct 2011 01:32

chackojoseph wrote:85 Armoured Regiment honoured by Army chief

CJ, an innocent Pooch, Why will we have an Armoured Regiment in the hills of Roorke? is this just a ceremonial locn or is the regiment itself based here? Maybe this is part of the 58th Armoured Brigade (conversion from Inf Bde) which is inturn part of the 14th RAPID. Fellow ORBAT junkies, please weigh in.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Oct 2011 01:53

^^^Hills of Roorkee? Where did you get that? That place is flat as a pancake....I've raced T-72 with me freinds there....

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Oct 2011 02:23

rohitvats wrote:^^^Hills of Roorkee? Where did you get that? That place is flat as a pancake....I've raced T-72 with me freinds there....

My bad, Roorkee, Uttarakhand conjured up an image of a hill station, but it turns out to be more in the plains, nestled between two rivers... Verdant tank country. Thanks
Rohit Miyan, care to respond to the second part, the ORBAT assertion?

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 05 Oct 2011 02:56

Shrinivasan wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^Hills of Roorkee? Where did you get that? That place is flat as a pancake....I've raced T-72 with me freinds there....
My bad, Roorkee, Uttarakhand conjured up an image of a hill station, but it turns out to be more in the plains, nestled between two rivers... Verdant tank country. Thanks
Rohit Miyan, care to respond to the second part, the ORBAT assertion?

the northies and southies. still think themselves as part of two different countries...

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 05 Oct 2011 05:17

‘Indian Army’s war reserves below critical level’

:
According to a report in a leading English daily, the Army has apprised the government in writing that some of its ammunition war reserves are currently below critical levels.

Following the development, the Defence Ministry has begun procuring ammo on an emergency basis, in some cases without adherence to the offsets policy. The policy lays down that if a foreign firm sells more than Rs 300 crore worth of ammo in a single transaction, it must re-invest 30 percent back in India.
:

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Oct 2011 09:19

Shrinivasan wrote: Rohit Miyan, care to respond to the second part, the ORBAT assertion?

Yes, part of 14 RAPID.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Oct 2011 10:57

Good too see a net increase in RAPIDs in IA, ORBAT.com talks about adding a new Corps in kashmir by bifurcating the XVI corps and also about creating a new command called North Western command facing the pigs. Is this empty talk or is there some fire under this smoke.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Oct 2011 11:01

IA is adding T90s and BMP IIs at a decent pace, apart from augmenting existing formations for the three RAPIDS have we added any armoured Brigades? Number of Armoured regiments seem to be the same? I see two things, T55s are not exactly moth-balled, so they are being used somewhere, the number of tanks in each regiments is also in the sixties, way more than the 45 tank norm (plus reserves)? What gives?

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 05 Oct 2011 13:14

ORBAT.com talks about adding a new Corps in kashmir by bifurcating the XVI corps

I thought this was done, and hence, we now have IX Corps alongwith XVI Corps

and also about creating a new command called North Western command facing the pigs.

First, there has to be a Corps HQ for Ladakh. NW Command, although talked about a couple of years back, is unlikely to happen in the next couple of years. In any case, the Army prioritized SW Command over the NW Command...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Oct 2011 19:29

14 RAPID is one of the original four RAPIDs. New ones are 12, 4 and third is yet to be ascertained. Before any bifurcation of Command for Northern Areas and eastern Ladakh, lets get in some more divisions into the sector.

In light of recent article which spoke about early 2000 review by IA which identified the need for bringing Corps with two divisions to three divisions each, I suspect XV and XIV Corps to get additional divisions to bring them to three division structure. This is apart from the two MSC and their complement of four new divisions.