Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

[joshvajohn]

My interest is to see how a future leader within BJP emerges. Because of a weak opposition party the democracy would colloapse. The congress aly ruling party would do anything that they wanted even intervening and challenging Supreme court on corruptions. It is all black money which is touching every ministers' pocket at this time and revealing them altogether. There should be a fear among the ruling party that next time another leader may emerge in this nation who will put all these corrupt minister into prison if they are proved to be corrupt and all their money into Government services. This is one of the reasons that I would like to see a strong Opposition leader emerges soon who would stand upto the present govt and also who would see that a strong core group and a loose group emerges to develop formation of next govt in India. IF this is not happening in India, Congress will destroy this nation with their allies of corruption and division.

Brihaspati I am not sure whether I have understood your questions. Even if there are other religious political parties I do not see them as a problem. The future of democracy is an evolution of representative democracy - a negotiation between majorities and minorities, a negotiation between caste groups and their numbers, a negotiation between intellecutuals and workers and so on. In India we have to decentralise power beyond this centre and state power centres. Unless there is a strong leadership who can have a vision of building this country these squanderals will destroy our country. Unfortunately though MMS calls it growth, unless we fight corruption whatever they have done until now are going to be destroyed by these folks. We need to be strong in this direction.

I should say again that I do not have problem of having BJP as a representatives of Hindus but when they are in rule they are leaders for all people. So there are general questions such as Justice for all. India had stories of a king who killed his own son for the sake of Justice for a cow. Last BJP's rule in India was indeed a good one that is why there is an expectation possibly that such rule may be repeated in history soon. if Advani can do like Vajpayee it will be good for the country.

[svinayak]

India is not a weak country in which democracy will collapse.
Indian society is the bedrock of the nation and state. Indian population has been in the state for several millenia to just become weak and dysfuntional

[brihaspati]

joshvajohn ji,
your post was highlighting the supposedly problematic shadow of specific "cultural" organizations on NaMo. If you are suggesting that this is the individual who you hope will be a "strong" leader of opposition to congrez rule - then your post raises issues of supposed difficulty in the way of this "future" fuhrer - simply because of associations or shadows of "cultural" organizations. The underlying implication is that this individual can reach his potential - and will be "acceptable" to sufficient standards of diversity - only if he denounces or detaches from those "orgs".

I obviously have two severe problems with this approach:
(1) it wants to disassociate the cultural aspect from "leadership" - which implies that the problem lies in accepting one particular culture
(2) it does not apply this approach to other "religiously" identified political parties with explicit religious affiliation.

Somewhat like the "only good XXX is a dead/submissive/self-denouncing XXX..."

I also have problems with looking for "a strong leader" who will rid us of all "evils". One could say that this is an integral part of the Indic psyche, looking for "avataars", but do please note that other equally staunch branches of the Indic do not care much for this concept. If you have noted, I have always favoured a "strong group" as a leader, a collective leadership - that does not depend too much on a single individual. I would at most go for a strong authoritarian oligarchy - only for a limited transitional period.

This individual leader aspect is favoured by non-Indic philosophies and imperialist ideologies more than Indic. In fact the western philosophies and life-approaches are not the truly "individualistic" ones as they are made out to be - it is the Indian one which truly is individualistic. It permeates its entire philosophical backbone - even gurus are only supposed to serve as pointers - the journey is ones own. This is both the weakness and strength as well as uniqueness of SD. There is no collective salvation. Hence no hankering for an individual saviour.

From both a practical viewpoint, tactical and strategic long term viewpoint - concentrating all efforts on making NaMo the "fuhrer" - is a dangerous thought. It promises to play into the traps being laid by forces inimical to "India" [and not necessarily to the congrez and its ideological friends].

Never, ever should Indians make the mistake of equating a long term serious transitional process and its required mobilizational movements with one individual. That makes it so easy to hijack the transition process by interested "others" and when their objectives are satisfied - eliminate the "individual". Sometimes that is also a convenient moment to stamp an entire culture evil.

[shivajisisodia]

Moving from the Strategic to the tactical for a moment.

There is a newspaper headline today in the Hindustan Times which quotes P Chindambaram, the "respected" Home Minister of India saying that India knows the address of where Dawood Abraham Mian lives in Karachi. He goes on to say that there is nothing that India can do about it.

Well, why not ? A lot of us look the same as Paki, we even have many thousands of loyal Indian muslims living among us. Why is it so hard to pull off a hit in a place like Karachi of all places, for the Indian intelligence service, when it knows the address ? To me, this is unbelievable. I have often wondered why our intelligence agencies have been utter failures at anything they do. They have not assasinated anyone of significance, never, nor have they pulled off any tactical operations such as blowing up ammunition dumps or terrorist camps, right across the border. They have not had any strategic successes either, whereby, they have incited or helped any anti-paki or anti-China militant group. What the hell are they doing ? Playing politics perhaps, like all the rest of the Indians.

Bpati Sab and others, this is what makes me highly pessimistic about India, the subcontinent and its future strategic scenario. If we cannot even pull off simple, tactical operations, as a nation, how can we expect the Indians to have any strategic outlook on things, ever. And the facts speak for themselves. Name one strategic international affairs or defense policy, post independence, that India has had over the years, which can be termed as an unmitigated success, simply by the Indians conceptualizing such a policy, preparing an action plan, sticking by it, modifying it as circumstances changed and actually executed it to perfection. Please dont say, 1971, as that was more an opportunistic move by Mrs. Gandhi, rather than any strategic move by India.

Therefore, frankly, all this abstract talk about "Indian psyche" and "transitional process" and such seem very out of place, when taken in context of ground realities of India today. And therefore, the only place, I dont find India to be a weak country is in Acharya's posts, and I say this with all humility and respect. How can a country, totally devoid of strategic thought, be anything but weak ? If it is not weak, then perhaps we should start classifying "strategic thought" as a vice, rather than a virtue and all just walk around like a buffalo, living from minute to minute, day by day, till we are blind sided by a larger animal who will prey on us.

[joshvajohn]

Interesting and good points Brihaspati!

I agree with most part of your points on Individual leadership - being good and possibly take into another (negative) direction as well like a dictator. But I should say also that a good leader is not one who wish to put his ideas into practice or implementation rather is one who is ready to bring people together trying to find some common ground of growth and sharing resources in a fair way particularly in Indian context also means being strong to defend our country and against corruption. He is also possibly one who can enable other people's talents to put together. I think present government has all these except a will to fight the corruption and a will to share resources to all people, a will to make our country to be strong, a will to speak against neighbours when they do wrong while support them to grow with us. It is nothing wrong in expecting a future leader to have such characteristics. is it not?

[shivajisisodia]

Perhaps, we can come up with a "Strategy" to fix this. And dont shoot me, I am only a messanger.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 200781.cms

[brihaspati]

Moving from the Strategic to the tactical for a moment.

There is a newspaper headline today in the Hindustan Times which quotes P Chindambaram, the "respected" Home Minister of India saying that India knows the address of where Dawood Abraham Mian lives in Karachi. He goes on to say that there is nothing that India can do about it.

Well, why not ? A lot of us look the same as Paki, we even have many thousands of loyal Indian muslims living among us. Why is it so hard to pull off a hit in a place like Karachi of all places, for the Indian intelligence service, when it knows the address ? To me, this is unbelievable. I have often wondered why our intelligence agencies have been utter failures at anything they do. They have not assasinated anyone of significance, never, nor have they pulled off any tactical operations such as blowing up ammunition dumps or terrorist camps, right across the border. They have not had any strategic successes either, whereby, they have incited or helped any anti-paki or anti-China militant group. What the hell are they doing ? Playing politics perhaps, like all the rest of the Indians.

if you take assassinations or dump-busting as the high-mark of secret service's success, I have nothing much to say - except that yes that is what seems to be the thrust of hollywood and the popular romanticization of secret-services work. What you are asking for is typically undertaken more under war situations and are more carried out by military special units, than regular long time intel ops. Whether they have had much "strategic" success or not is perhaps a historical question, and I think it is better not to go into this discussion here - for a variety of reasons.

Bpati Sab and others, this is what makes me highly pessimistic about India, the subcontinent and its future strategic scenario. If we cannot even pull off simple, tactical operations, as a nation, how can we expect the Indians to have any strategic outlook on things, ever. And the facts speak for themselves. Name one strategic international affairs or defense policy, post independence, that India has had over the years, which can be termed as an unmitigated success, simply by the Indians conceptualizing such a policy, preparing an action plan, sticking by it, modifying it as circumstances changed and actually executed it to perfection. Please dont say, 1971, as that was more an opportunistic move by Mrs. Gandhi, rather than any strategic move by India.

I think you are not very aware of the buildup to 1971. Look up Agartala Conspiracy case. By the very nature of intel work - you cannot judge them by apparent overt action on ground because you don't know whether any such objective was at all set for them.

Therefore, frankly, all this abstract talk about "Indian psyche" and "transitional process" and such seem very out of place, when taken in context of ground realities of India today. And therefore, the only place, I dont find India to be a weak country is in Acharya's posts, and I say this with all humility and respect. How can a country, totally devoid of strategic thought, be anything but weak ? If it is not weak, then perhaps we should start classifying "strategic thought" as a vice, rather than a virtue and all just walk around like a buffalo, living from minute to minute, day by day, till we are blind sided by a larger animal who will prey on us.

"India" is a different thing to different people. For you "rashtryia" machinery and its wings is India. Which of course shows certain weaknesses.

But you are not asking the right questions. You should have looked more at the guiding principles of foreign policy for Indian regimes, as well as the complex interface between political will and non-elected establishment that ultimately results in actual policy implemented - covert as well as overt. This is where, even if many claim on congrez/GOI behalf that Indian policy is guided by "realpolitik+economic prosperity onlee", in reality a certain kind of ethical/moral pretension appears to be prevalent from Nehruvian times.

It could be a pretension because, we cannot entirely rule out the possibility of successor interests to the colonial ones - still having indirect fingers within the influence zone that influences the establishment. Therefore both apparent lack of political will, as well as overt pretension for ethical dances - could be a face-saving front covering real ideological or other dependencies on external linkages. We took over the colonial rashtryia wings - we did not throw it away and build from the scratch.

[brihaspati]

Interesting and good points Brihaspati!

I agree with most part of your points on Individual leadership - being good and possibly take into another (negative) direction as well like a dictator. But I should say also that a good leader is not one who wish to put his ideas into practice or implementation rather is one who is ready to bring people together trying to find some common ground of growth and sharing resources in a fair way particularly in Indian context also means being strong to defend our country and against corruption. He is also possibly one who can enable other people's talents to put together. I think present government has all these except a will to fight the corruption and a will to share resources to all people, a will to make our country to be strong, a will to speak against neighbours when they do wrong while support them to grow with us. It is nothing wrong in expecting a future leader to have such characteristics. is it not?

If the present gov [has all these]
(1) is not one who wish to put his ideas into practice or implementation
(2) rather is one who is ready to bring people together trying to find some common ground of growth and sharing resources in a fair way particularly in Indian context
(3) also being strong to defend our country and against corruption.
(4) also one who can enable other people's talents to put together.

and still lacks
(a) the "will" to fight corruption
(b) "will" to share resources to all people,
(c) will to make our country to be strong,
(d) will to speak against neighbours when they do wrong while support them to grow with us.

then it must be by (2) - a common ground found after bringing all people together, or enabling other people's talents together, and which therefore implies that "people" do not want such "will"s.

Since the gov leadership do not put their own "ideas"-wishes into implementation, and they put other's wishes into implementation -you cannot ask of it a separate individual "will".

[brihaspati]

Perhaps, we can come up with a "Strategy" to fix this. And dont shoot me, I am only a messanger.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 200781.cms

Can it not go into the infrastructure development thread at least? OT - but the extremely low stats seem to be reported from countries notorious for their doctored stats. China seems even more hilarious - because it has been a well known observation that china, like many other Asian agricultural giants, used open defecation/urination as as an eco-friendly recycling of human waste useful for agricultural practices. Hinton's Fan Shen could be a good starting point for you. Or Agnes Smedley and Han Suyin's panegyrics will do fine too.

[shivajisisodia]

if you take assassinations or dump-busting as the high-mark of secret service's success, I have nothing much to say - except that yes that is what seems to be the thrust of hollywood and the popular romanticization of secret-services work. What you are asking for is typically undertaken more under war situations and are more carried out by military special units, than regular long time intel ops.

BPati Sab,

For the first time, I sensed that your post contains not only factual errors but is perhaps, slightly deliberately disingenuous stemming out of a certain defensiveness (which is very common, almost ubiquitous in India, but I thought that you of all people would be above it).

1) First of all, you know well that I dont consider "assassinations or dump-busting" as high mark of secret service's success. If our intelligence agencies were accomplishing BIG THINGS, I would not be quibbling about them not accomplishing even small things such as assassinations and dump-busting. But you know well, that our intelligence services have been woefully inadequete even in the missions that this inept government has assigned to them, in the few minutes every week that this government as a whole spends on intelligence matters. I constantly hear on this forum whenever someone complains about a soft India that keeps taking hits without inflicting any back, that perhaps the government and the army are doing things, but that "they may not be visible to you". It is a constant refrain. Well, certainly, that closes the conversation right there, because, basically I am supposed to feel like an idiot, being the only guy "out of the loop". To everyone else, it is quite visible, what the government and the army are doing, and all are supremely happy with the response. I think you used a bit of that technique here.

2) The factual error, and it is an amatuerish error, at least by your standards, is when you claim that assassinations etc are only undertaken under "war situations and more carried out by special ops as opposed to intelligence". This is wrong on so many counts, that I cant even begin. I can give you examples after examples of intelligence agencies conducting assassinations, dump busting, planning even militant attacks, during non "hot war" situations. Paki ISI is a past master of doing that in India and Kashmir. You know that well. Let me give you another very recent example of a lethal and successful series of assassinations organized by intelligence agencies, and I know that you are well aware of these. Several top Iranian nuclear scientists have been assassinated and have "disappeared" over the last two years, courtesy the Mossad and the CIA, severely crippling and delaying the Iranian nuclear program. These continue. We all know what CIA, Mossad and the KGB and its successors do, during peacetime, when there is no "hot war" going on. Unless, by "war time situations", you also meant the cold war, in which case you seem to be implying that there is no cold war going on between India and Pak. I personally think that there not only is a very robust cold war goint on but also a fairly hot war going on between India and Pak, because every ceasefire violation, every Indian jawan killed in Kashmir and every bomb blast is to me a hot war.

I think it diminishes a person of your high intellect, when you try to get defensive and start apologising for our national failures by hiding behind arguments implying that "those are small potatoes, our benchmark is attaining much higher things". You know fully well that those higher things too, clearly never come about, or at least do not come about in a way, "visible to millions of idiots like me". If those higher things were visible to me, you also know, that I wouldnt complain about the little things. My point is that we are not achieving anything big, but we cant even achieve something as small as pulling off a hit on Dawood.

I have read a good deal about 1971 and events leading up to 1971. I would not call it a Strategic political success on India's part. It more falls in the "taking full and good advantage of the situation" category, where Mrs. Gandhi acted decisively and took great risks for the country, but she did not "strategically dismember Pakistan". "Strategic dismembering of Pakistan" was all its own doing, we were opportunistic, and for once in our history took advantage of our enemies' bad situation, a rare event, for which Mrs. Gandhi and our nation deserves full credit. The Indian armed forces, of course, had a militiary strategy, once they were ordered to go in and it was quite brilliant, but it was only a military strategy, not a political strategy.

[shivajisisodia]

Can it not go into the infrastructure development thread at least? OT - but the extremely low stats seem to be reported from countries notorious for their doctored stats. China seems even more hilarious - because it has been a well known observation that china, like many other Asian agricultural giants, used open defecation/urination as as an eco-friendly recycling of human waste useful for agricultural practices. Hinton's Fan Shen could be a good starting point for you. Or Agnes Smedley and Han Suyin's panegyrics will do fine too.

Bpati Sab,

With all due respects, Sir, you missed the point again. It is not about other countries, it is about us. Let us assume that all the rest of the countries in the world have higher percentages than us. Would you then be happy with the 54% for India ? Or you think that not only are other countries undercounting their figures (although these stats come from UN, not each individual countries), but that India is over-stating its figures ?

I was debating whether to put it in this thread or not. But your response eliminated any doubt in my mind that I did the correct thing by posting it here. Because, Sir, "Strategy" is an animal whose success depends entirely on how correct the factual assessment of the "strategiser" is and the more sound facts and realism that a "strategy" is built on, the more successful it is. A "strategy" succeeds or fails 90% in the initial days of its construction, depending on the extent of realism that it is built on. The more defensive our mindset and the more denial we live in, the worse our "strategy" construction ability. Your response above only suggests defensiveness and denial, no sense of regret or shame that even if we discount the facts stated in that report by a full 90%, it is still a matter of great disgrace to our nation and to all our citizens, you and me included, Sir. And if the best of us are not immune to denial and defensiveness, Sir, no wonder, India with all its briliance and achivement in various fields, our great heritage and history, and our great present day talent, is not known as a "strategic thinking" nation.

It is no accident, Sir, that our world ranking in "strategic thinking", coincides completely with our world ranking in "the numbers that use open skies as their bathrooms" . If we successfully fix the latter, the former will automatically be taken care of.

[joshvajohn]

When I wrote the present govt has all of these - I meant they have people with such skills - but there is no leadership to put them together - there is no leadership to take strong decisions - there is no leadership which would recognise the public mood and so on. I should not include into the wish list of the present govt - that they want to make India strong - no!

I am only hoping a future leader who would have such skills.

[member_19686]

Bpati Sab,

With all due respects, Sir, you missed the point again. It is not about other countries, it is about us. Let us assume that all the rest of the countries in the world have higher percentages than us. Would you then be happy with the 54% for India ? Or you think that not only are other countries undercounting their figures (although these stats come from UN, not each individual countries), but that India is over-stating its figures ?

Open defecation was used traditionally to fertilize the fields in the villages as brihaspati pointed out and people take a sh*t in designated areas not where ever they please in villages.

The profession of night soil remover because they didn't have such notions of purity. From a discussion elsewhere:

There were 2 systems. One of them, used by a vast majority of the
population, didn't require any maintenance. It was the equivalent of
the compost toilet that one sees in the national parks in the USA.
Gandhi used a variation of the ancient Indian method, after a lot of
research, in his ashrama. A small hole was dug by the side of the
field, and after defecating, a mixture of sand, and plant remains was
used to cover it. It was biodegradable. In the hot Indian climate, it
actually degraded very fast, in just 2 or 3 days. There was also a
pattern of selecting a field for this purpose. It is well known that
the crop was planted in an alternating way in India. There was always
a section of the field that had to be prepared, nourished and
ploughed before it is planted. It was this field that was used for
squatting. This practice is visible in rural India even today.

The second, used only in urban centres, required maintenance. 2
methods were used. One, it was filled up and allowed to degrade, and
we have Imperial Chola records that show that these lands were
subsequently distributed for agriculture. In a variant, the dry river
bed was used for defecating, and was not covered up (please note that
TN under the 3 dynasties had a network of narrow canals that were
used for irrigation when the monsoon ended). During monsoons, or when
the culvert was opened, the initial flow of water was used to flush
out the waste that may still be sitting on the river bed (that is
whatever wasn't eaten up by the pigs). Once again, if you visit rural
South India, this practice is still visible. After the culverts are
opened, people wait for a few hours till the bed is flushed, then
perform pujas before Adi Perukku celebrations start.

On page 203 they have a table of agricultural yields based on inscriptions and observations of early British civil servants:

http://www.cpsindia.org/downloads/timel ... on%203.pdf

I don't think the earlier one's are averaged but the 1803 Allahabad one is, so our ancestors certainly knew what they were doing. In many cases better than us considering our current miserable yields.

Edit: I meant to say that the profession of night soil remover began under Muslim occupation because they didn't have notions of ritual purity.

[brihaspati]

BPati Sab,

For the first time, I sensed that your post contains not only factual errors but is perhaps, slightly deliberately disingenuous stemming out of a certain defensiveness (which is very common, almost ubiquitous in India, but I thought that you of all people would be above it).

1) First of all, you know well that I dont consider "assassinations or dump-busting" as high mark of secret service's success. If our intelligence agencies were accomplishing BIG THINGS, I would not be quibbling about them not accomplishing even small things such as assassinations and dump-busting. But you know well, that our intelligence services have been woefully inadequete even in the missions that this inept government has assigned to them, in the few minutes every week that this government as a whole spends on intelligence matters. .....

If you know what this "inept" government has actually assigned as tasks to the intel services, please do not share them with us here. You would cause infinite trouble to a lot of sincere - if not competent - by your standards - people. I sense that you are quick to jump to conclusions about intentions in others too - as you thought I was being defensive. I was just being neutral. Trying to make you understand that you cannot judge the servant when you do not really know what the master has done or instructed.

2) The factual error, and it is an amatuerish error, at least by your standards, is when you claim that assassinations etc are only undertaken under "war situations and more carried out by special ops as opposed to intelligence". ....Paki ISI is a past master of doing that in India and Kashmir......Several top Iranian nuclear scientists have been assassinated and have "disappeared" over the last two years, courtesy the Mossad and the CIA, severely crippling and delaying the Iranian nuclear program. ....We all know what CIA, Mossad and the KGB and its successors do, during peacetime, when there is no "hot war" going on. Unless, by "war time situations", you also meant the cold war, in which case you seem to be implying that there is no cold war going on between India and Pak. I personally think that there not only is a very robust cold war goint on but also a fairly hot war going on between India and Pak, because every ceasefire violation, every Indian jawan killed in Kashmir and every bomb blast is to me a hot war.

Phew! And how did you come to know about the details of these operations as planned and carried out by Mossad, CIA, ISI...? From sensational "exposes" in the media, I suppose. Or hints in the "memoirs" of ex-intel operatives or bosses. You think they always speak the truth in public? Yes it is possible that this is what they have done or are doing, but a lot of psy-ops and disinformation goes on in this business. If you want to play CT's I can supply you with nightmares that could have more grains of truth than what is generally given out in romantic fiction.

The process of assassinations for example is much more complex than you represent them to be. They cannot really be carried out successfully unless parts of the target/scenario nation collaborate. I have tried to raise this in the background of assassinations in India too, repeatedly - if you look through my posts. Sometimes undesirable key people get assassinated by "foreign" intel, "hated" internal enemies, since the state doing it directly may be politically costly. A variety of factors come into play - and not onlee the simplistic scenario of Mossad+CIA [the Islamic whipping boys] or ISI [India's whipping boy].

I think it diminishes a person of your high intellect, when you try to get defensive and start apologising for our national failures by hiding behind arguments implying that "those are small potatoes, our benchmark is attaining much higher things". You know fully well that those higher things too, clearly never come about, or at least do not come about in a way, "visible to millions of idiots like me". If those higher things were visible to me, you also know, that I wouldnt complain about the little things. My point is that we are not achieving anything big, but we cant even achieve something as small as pulling off a hit on Dawood.

Intellect is an ephemeral and debatable issue. All the more put into question when we are unable to distinguish between a more complex and multifaceted position on covert ops, and defensiveness. I tried to redirect you to greater focus on the political perceptions of ruling regimes as the determinant of intel-ops, but you missed it too.

I have read a good deal about 1971 and events leading up to 1971. I would not call it a Strategic political success on India's part. It more falls in the "taking full and good advantage of the situation" category, where Mrs. Gandhi acted decisively and took great risks for the country, but she did not "strategically dismember Pakistan". "Strategic dismembering of Pakistan" was all its own doing, we were opportunistic, and for once in our history took advantage of our enemies' bad situation, a rare event, for which Mrs. Gandhi and our nation deserves full credit. The Indian armed forces, of course, had a militiary strategy, once they were ordered to go in and it was quite brilliant, but it was only a military strategy, not a political strategy.

Do please read up on the Agartala Conspiracy case, in which Sk. Mujib was implicated. This happened quite sometime before 1971. That should give you pointers to what started happening from 1965, and in some cases you may get hints of what processes were started even before. The preparations for 1971 go much further back. But of course there is a political reason and realpolitik reason why that history is not that much highlighted, and should not be even now.

[brihaspati]

Can it not go into the infrastructure development thread at least? OT - but the extremely low stats seem to be reported from countries notorious for their doctored stats. China seems even more hilarious - because it has been a well known observation that china, like many other Asian agricultural giants, used open defecation/urination as as an eco-friendly recycling of human waste useful for agricultural practices. Hinton's Fan Shen could be a good starting point for you. Or Agnes Smedley and Han Suyin's panegyrics will do fine too.

Bpati Sab,

With all due respects, Sir, you missed the point again. It is not about other countries, it is about us. Let us assume that all the rest of the countries in the world have higher percentages than us. Would you then be happy with the 54% for India ? Or you think that not only are other countries undercounting their figures (although these stats come from UN, not each individual countries), but that India is over-stating its figures ?

I was debating whether to put it in this thread or not. But your response eliminated any doubt in my mind that I did the correct thing by posting it here. Because, Sir, "Strategy" is an animal whose success depends entirely on how correct the factual assessment of the "strategiser" is and the more sound facts and realism that a "strategy" is built on, the more successful it is. A "strategy" succeeds or fails 90% in the initial days of its construction, depending on the extent of realism that it is built on. The more defensive our mindset and the more denial we live in, the worse our "strategy" construction ability. Your response above only suggests defensiveness and denial, no sense of regret or shame that even if we discount the facts stated in that report by a full 90%, it is still a matter of great disgrace to our nation and to all our citizens, you and me included, Sir. And if the best of us are not immune to denial and defensiveness, Sir, no wonder, India with all its briliance and achivement in various fields, our great heritage and history, and our great present day talent, is not known as a "strategic thinking" nation.

It is no accident, Sir, that our world ranking in "strategic thinking", coincides completely with our world ranking in "the numbers that use open skies as their bathrooms" . If we successfully fix the latter, the former will automatically be taken care of.

As surasena ji has pointed out, Indians did recycle human waste. That is a long long history and record of eco-management that should perhaps go into some other thread. The very management of agriculture, from seed diversity and selection to animal care, to irrigation, and recycling of waste.

Strategy includes prioritizing, and having a rather in depth acquaintance of the situation - people, land, history, geographical features, as well as consciousness of what others objectives are. Issues and on what values we start dancing about - should be carefully thought about. The Brits danced a lot about their supposed gift of "canals" and "dams" to India. What is not told is that their lack of knowledge, technically as well as the lay of the land, history of the land, and ignoring the accumulated climatic/weather experiences - initially led to neglect of upkeep of the indigenous irrigation systems, and later on unplanned canals that sometimes caused more damages than good. Prioritizing railways because of their own Brit-side commercial interests pressures, led to even neglect of these canals or canal building - and lack of acquaintance with the land caused railways tracks and embankments or bridges that caused stagnant waters breeding mosquitoes and malarial epidemics, or silting up of long flowing rain-fed river channels.

We will do it our own way, keeping in mind our cumulative experiences on the land, taking from others where we feel it will improve, reserving the right to do it our own way where we feel it is better our way. I for one, refuse to be excited by approbations or disapproval or approval from "others" - and there are many more like me. Of course there are people in the current gov who feel charged with "missions" according to agenda set by external forces. In time such regimes will go away.

[brihaspati]

joshvajohn ji,
so the main question you should be asking is : what is the reason behind the current regime not having such a leadership that wants to/wills the conflation of talent in the way you want? That is the most important question, [and not what shadows overcast a certain leader from Gujarat] - because if you start answering it, you will be led down some thorny and uncomfortable paths.

Why don't the congrez do it? thats the billion dollar question.

[shivajisisodia]

^^^^^

Bpati Sab,

I will combine my responses to both of your above posts, in this post.

I think we have a profound disagreement, and I think this disagreement is symbolic of the crux of the problem we have in India today. You seem to think, and correct me if I am wrong, that most of the things, we everyday Indians do in our day to day life are justified because they are rooted in our culture. Your views coincide or provide succor to those who think that a radical surgery in the mindset of everyday Indians is not necessary for us to survive going forward. Because, you think that it is our leadership which is primarily corrupt, not our people, who in your view, may sometimes be wrong (for example in voting for the wrong people and sometimes indulging in narrow and non-nationalistic thinking), but by and large are right thinking and right acting.

I come from a different place. I think our problems are fundamentally rooted in a mostly incorrect and suicidal thinking of our everyday people. All the symptoms such as a bad government, bad institutions, bad governance and non-nationalistic policies are an outcome of this fundamentally self-destructive thinking of our general populace. Therefore, to me, the actions and thinking of the general populace is far less sacrosanct in and offa itself and far more open to questioning, than in your view. Not everything our general population does needs to be defended or is defensible at all, in my view. And not everything in our culture is defensible either, in my view. No culture is beyond reproach in that sense. I am still proud of my culture, despite it having many flaws. I dont need my culture to be perfect to be proud of it and fight for it, but it doesnt mean that I will defend every aspect of our culture or every cultural practice. In fact, my fight to preserve the fundamental goodness of our culture certainly is a fight against outsiders, but is equally a fight against insiders who either distort our culture to justify everything or practice things actually sanctioned by our culture, but are self destructive and counter productive. It is ultimately in a spiritual sense, my fight against myself, at its most elemental level. If I can purify myself to the highest level of purity, no outsider can touch me. That is what I take from our scriptures, from Gita, from our culture. That is what to me, the essence of our culture is. Self purification.

So, this is a fundamental difference between you and I will lead us to different conclusions always. In general, you will be more protective (ok, I will take back the word, defensive and rephrase), yes, protective of things good and bad in our people and our culture. I will be as virulently opposed to the evil within us as I would be to any outsider trying to malign or destroy us.(In that sense, I am more like a fundamentalist muslim, but in actuality a fundamentalist Hindu). So, for example, in the case of defecation, you will probably be in favor of continuing public defecation as it will continue to be "beneficial to our yields" (which by the way, I think is total nonsense), and not be in favor of more indoor plumbing, while I will strenuously push for a 100% indoor plumbing goal. I wonder, how you will justify the massive quantities of trash that we Indians throw in our public places and what yield that increases. I mean, if the same guy adopts tractors, massive inorganic fertilizers and pesticides, jeeps, motor cycles, TV, radio, electricity, irrigation and cell phones, and is justified in not adopting indoor plumbing in the name of our traditions and culture, why doesnt he stay without any of those other goodies in the name of our culture and traditions ? Why not stay with bullock carts, for instance, after all, they are far more green than cars and far more beneficial in the long run. Ok, I would settle for at least that guy not using any "ill gotten" income to indulge in those goodies. How about that ?

[brihaspati]

^^About "shaucha-kritya" there are several indigenous moves ongoing. Look up the sulabh movement to have produced easy to build systems that provide sanitation and fertilizers at the same time.

About what to "protect" and what "not" - you probably know as little about me, as I do of you, to predict that we will always be at loggerheads over issues. There are many things, of much more controversial nature, that I feel must be edited out of our practices/beliefs. But this is not the place to bring them out.

I take social transitions very very seriously. They need to be planned for, prepared for, forces mobilized and protected and nurtured, and a flexibility of tools and tactics. But all that will be to nothing if you first do not humbly stand there in the mud and dirt with the jana-ganesh. Revolutions are not a matter of emotional burping from an infantile disorder. Many have done this and they have been most damaging to real social changes needed.

[Sanku]

Sir-ji, why not let me call you Big-B? Please pretty please?

[shivajisisodia]

^^About "shaucha-kritya" there are several indigenous moves ongoing. Look up the sulabh movement to have produced easy to build systems that provide sanitation and fertilizers at the same time.

Frankly, I dont know what you are talking about here. Please elaborate.

About what to "protect" and what "not" - you probably know as little about me, as I do of you, to predict that we will always be at loggerheads over issues. There are many things, of much more controversial nature, that I feel must be edited out of our practices/beliefs. But this is not the place to bring them out. .

Why not ?

I take social transitions very very seriously. They need to be planned for, prepared for, forces mobilized and protected and nurtured, and a flexibility of tools and tactics. But all that will be to nothing if you first do not humbly stand there in the mud and dirt with the jana-ganesh. .

And also humbly and communally partake in "increasing the yield" ritual every morning.......

Revolutions are not a matter of emotional burping from an infantile disorder.

No, revolutions are a matter of non-emotional dumping in the open skies.

I hope you dont mind some levity and take it too much to heart

[brihaspati]

^^About "shaucha-kritya" there are several indigenous moves ongoing. Look up the sulabh movement to have produced easy to build systems that provide sanitation and fertilizers at the same time.

Frankly, I dont know what you are talking about here. Please elaborate.

About what to "protect" and what "not" - you probably know as little about me, as I do of you, to predict that we will always be at loggerheads over issues. There are many things, of much more controversial nature, that I feel must be edited out of our practices/beliefs. But this is not the place to bring them out. .

Why not ?

I take social transitions very very seriously. They need to be planned for, prepared for, forces mobilized and protected and nurtured, and a flexibility of tools and tactics. But all that will be to nothing if you first do not humbly stand there in the mud and dirt with the jana-ganesh. .

And also humbly and communally partake in "increasing the yield" ritual every morning.......

Revolutions are not a matter of emotional burping from an infantile disorder.

No, revolutions are a matter of non-emotional dumping in the open skies.

I hope you dont mind some levity and take it too much to heart

If your revolution has found this issue as the supreme objective requiring urgent attention, by all means, please go forward. I am sure you will attract a lot of sincere revolutionaries of the type who manned the barricades against corruption on the web and precipitated the secularism approved version of the great fuhrer on to RamLeela maidan - but who never managed a similar organizing talent after 26/11.

If you are seeing the open-air dumping for the first time in your life, you are disconnected from the reality of most of rural and some of urban India. If you are reacting only this first time even after knowing about it for a long time, then it shows too much servility to external criticism.

You can behave in infantile disorder, but you don't have to leave your tastes behind when you come and talk to others. I would suggest going back over what you said in your previous posts. Don't mock the jana. You will have to rue it. Seriously. If you are a true Mewari, and/or a Shaiva, and from the supposed background you hint of, this behaviour is unexpected.

[brihaspati]

This is exactly the attitude that has divided and separated the people from self-proclaimed more knowledgeable people. Do not anger the one who permeates all of India's "wretched". Shiva lived in the open, around funeral pyres, in caves, in forests - away from urban sanitation. He lived with snakes around his neck, with unwashed hair that tangled into jataas, and covered in dust and ashes. His followers were even more colourful characters. You are probably unaware of what you are saying. Think of why this model was chosen and accepted by most of the common Indians.

You will feel remorse within yourself. Do not do this again.

[shivajisisodia]

^^^^^

The more I listen to you, the more I think I seriously overestimated you.

You are trying to teach Shaivism to a Shaivite ? You have no idea what you are talking about. No branch of Shaivism ever says, that the followers should live the lifestyle of Lord Shiva. There is nothing sacrosanct about the caves in forests, unwashed hair, tangled jataas and dust in Shaivism. That is not what Shaivism is all about. And nowhere does either Lord Shiva or the doctrinal Shaivism ever advocate open defacation. I am sorry to say, that is so silly, it is hilarious. :)

Shaivism is all about simplicity in thought, straight forwardness in conduct, immense inner power channeled from within oneself which then can be projected out to destroy the enemy. It is all about leadership and not about followership. If I fail to inspire you as a leader, that is entirely your perogative, but it is laughable to imagine me ever taking or following instructions from the likes of you. An elephant never takes instructions from an ant. :)

And for all your pretensions about being close to the grass roots, contest an election, even a Panchayat election and prove your grass roots support. I dont see any great virtue in it, but since you do, at least prove your own pretensions of being close to the grass roots.

[Atri]

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall
all the king's horses and all the king's men
could not put Humpty Dumpty together again...

[brihaspati]

shivajisisodia ji,
hmmm...nowhere does Shiva also talk of covered western style bathrooms/toilets! I am deeply humbled by your estimation. You can estimate me as you wish! It does not change one bit of what reality is, who I am or what is going to be the future. Thanks for your kind considerations. And many thanks of course for revealing how you see Shaivism as, how you interpret Shiva or your colourful illustrations and choice of words about the common Indian. You want to be a leader - well good luck and my best wishes. I hope you prove a better leader than your tongue promises or your powers of estimation indicate!

[devesh]

SS ji,

do you know the story of Samvartaka muni? he is the brother of Brihaspati ( ). he walked around with jataas, and used to linger near dead bodies gazing at them and doing sashtanga pranaam to dead bodies and practicing Yoga in their vicinity. a great king once promised his wife to do what no-one has done before, or will do hereafter. after making the promise, he searched for years looking for an activity like that. eventually Narada told him to visit Samvartaka and ask him for help in conducting a continuous Yaagam for 100 years with Oil pouring into Agni Kundas from the mouths of Elephants continuously, without stopping for 100 years (Brahma wanted to do this but he got busy with creation; for Brahma's yogic power, this is an easy task, but not so for humans).

the king finally sees Samvartaka in Varanasi doing Yoga near dead bodies and begs him for 7 months (while the muni was refusing) to help him. finally, Samvartaka agrees and summons the Ashta-Dikpalas and *orders* them to behave "properly" for the 100 year time span and provide the king w/everything continuously so that the Yaaga can be done.

that is the Yogic power of men who renounce all pretensions of superiority and "development". do not disregard it so lightly. there is a reason why Sanatana Dharma accepted and even nurtured these elements of Shaivism and Shaktism. and in some obscure places, even Vaishnavism has developed this strand of behavior. the Ramanuja followers see this w/contempt, but in some areas, the locals have much respect and adherence to this form of Vaishnavism.

I have been trying for some time to get "entry" into one such area in AP, but have been advised to not venture unless I am perfectly sure of my ability to behave *properly*. if I go in with my pretensions and other prejudices, it will unnecessarily disturb the "peace" of the locals who have a tenuous but established form of communication with outside world. I have been advised not to disturb this with my adventurism, but I hope that eventually I can have the right frame of mind and be accepted to visit.

and this opinion of mine is completely different from what I would have said just several months ago. something happened which changed my mind. I owe a relative very much for what he did during this time.

[brihaspati]

Sanku ji, why equate me with Buddha? Even in his avataar of spinning maya, he still stopped at the dewaar. I do want to go beyond.

[brihaspati]

Many people are raising the idea of war, apparently as bogeyman to scare children from becoming too unruly - but at the same time decision-makers show that the prospect of war is not far from their minds as a solution:
http://euobserver.com/18/113625

Speaking to MEPs in Strasbourg on Wednesday morning (14 September) he warned of the need to act rapidly to prevent grave danger for the EU. Making reference to a recent report entitled ‘Euro Break Up – The Consequences’ by Swiss financial giant UBS, he declared: “There is no doubt we are in danger. Europe is in danger”.

The paper by UBS, normally known for its highly sober analysis, warned that historically, monetary unions do not break up without civil war or some other form of authoritarian reaction. “The risk of civil disorder questions the rule of law, and as such basic issues such as property rights. Even those countries that avoid internal strife and divisions will likely have to use administrative controls to avoid extreme positions in their markets”, it said.

The Polish minister went on to warn of a doubling of unemployment within two years “even in the rich countries”.

He concluded his comments by recollecting a recent conversation he had with an old friend who is now head of a major bank: “We were talking about the crisis in eurozone. He told me ‘You know, after all these political shocks, economic shocks, it is very rare indeed that in the next 10 years we could avoid a war’. A war ladies and gentlemen. I am really thinking about obtaining a green card for my kids in the United States”.

He went further in his comments to reporters after his speech to parliament, saying that he had chosen his words “in a very careful way”. He said that the prospect of war is not likely “within a four-year legislative time frame … Not in the months ahead, but maybe over a 10-year time frame, this could place us in a context that is almost unimaginable at the moment”.

“It is up to all of us Europeans to take the lessons of an anecdote of that kind to ensure the errors of the past do not come back to haunt us.”

[Sanku]

Sanku ji, why equate me with Buddha? Even in his avataar of spinning maya, he still stopped at the dewaar. I do want to go beyond.

I like the phrase "Big-B"; and what that stands for, surely that phrase can be used in different fields for different folks without overlap?



------------------

I do hope dialectic materialism is not against taking a compliment.

[Prem]

Sanku ji, why equate me with Buddha? Even in his avataar of spinning maya, he still stopped at the dewaar. I do want to go beyond.

Perfectly in tune with the advise given by Paramhans RK to Vivekanada. Keep going, keep digging, keep removing the layers for the possibilties and oppertunites are infinite .
Like a Big Bee, sucking on vaireity of flowers for honey yet still keeping the sting .

[brihaspati]

The ozzies are quietly but surely also thinking of "war". Why "rise of India" makes Ozzie war with China inevitable - is however a bit long winded.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/fe ... 6142126552

For either side of politics, the only logical place to start on a blueprint for a future defence force is by defining what threats may emerge.

In the 2009 white paper that threat was defined as the uncertainty that would come with the increasing military power of nations such as China and India as US power waned.

It's not easy to discuss publicly, rationally, and without giving offence the prospect of war with a nation that is Australia's main trading partner and the key to its prosperity. To make planning even more complex, the US and Australia are engaged in force posture reviews to assess future threats and how to deal with them.

The review announced by Smith will advise on a range of issues, including whether the rising military power of Asia-Pacific nations poses a threat to Australia. It will be closely linked to the US global review, which is focused on the military power of China.

The combined reviews are likely to lead to an increased US military presence in the region and greater use of Australian bases by US ships and aircraft, as well as storage of equipment here.

They will certainly mean an increased focus on interoperability of Australian equipment with that used by US forces.

Because of the international sensitivities involved, both governments have taken great care in their public statements on what the US wants from Australia.

But in the broader academic debate on the issue, some startling ambit claims have been made.

Early this year two influential staff members at the US Naval War College produced a paper that warned US naval forces based in Japan would be well within ballistic missile range if a war with China eventuated. A good alternative base for US forces, they suggested, would be the west coast of Australia where "hardened" facilities could be defended from missile attack.

The paper, by associate professors James Holmes and Toshi Yoshihara, appeared in The Diplomat magazine and reflected increased examination of the possibility of a significant US military presence in Australia, and of the idea of war with China.

Yoshihara was brought to Australia by the Lowy Institute for International Policy earlier this year and he told The Australian then that while war between the US and China was far from inevitable, if it happened it was likely to involve barrages of missiles designed to knock out US bases and aircraft carrier battle groups.

Retaliatory strikes would be spearheaded by US ballistic missile submarines.

Yoshihara said US facilities in Guam and other relatively close bases could be knocked out early in such a war, so it would suit US planners well to have the submarines come to West Australia for resupply.

In their paper, the authors say the Australian government, Washington's most dependable ally in Asia alongside Tokyo, would probably prove agreeable to such an arrangement and "it's certainly worth exploring".

Behind the scenes a lot is being explored.

A paragraph on the tail end of the communique issued after last week's AUSMIN talks between Australian and US defence and foreign ministers said Australia would continue to consult with the US on missile defence so that technology could be adapted to threats unique to the Asia-Pacific.

That was shorthand for the fact Australia is working with the US on ways to destroy incoming ballistic missiles because of the possibility of a rogue nation such as North Korea developing a missile that could reach Australia.

Smith says there is an obvious national security interest for Australia in that co-operation.

"On some calculations, if successful, North Korean ballistic missile delivery systems, at their outer reach, could reach Australia," he says.

[brihaspati]

Sanku ji,
I studied dialectical materialism threadbare, but rejected it at least 12 years ago! its alright. Did not want to become part of the triangle around wealth. That too the father figure onlee! teasing.

[brihaspati]

Thanks, Prem ji!

By the way, to both you and Sanku ji - is it not possible to see a representation of class-struggle in Shiva's ramapging through Daksha's yajna? Sati protests social discriminatory attitudes based on "class/company/status" as expressed by her elite "class" against her "husband" and self-immolates [what a precedence!] and Shiva with his "declassed" followers shows what the Indic aam can and will do when inflamed by elite attitudes.

PS: This is a paradigm meant for agitprop - just to clear the air.

[ramana]

Once exposed to Marx difficult to take it out. By same token even Sagar Manthan can be seen in class struggle terms!

[brihaspati]

^^^I have been thinking of inverting the Marxian's displacement of the Indic in meme terms. The above was meant as a paradigm to throw back at them. Thats more a hint for the "Shaivites".

[brihaspati]

Americans are being urged to think more seriously in terms of war :
http://www.aei.org/outlook/27040

The collapse of the information warfare paradigm is an opportunity to change the way we think about national security. That paradigm lasted longer than it should have by about five years. It was conceived as a transformation program suitable for a strategic pause and designed for warfare very different from the conflicts of the past six years. The strategic pause, if there ever was one, is over. The world is becoming a much more dangerous place. The time for abstract theorizing about war is also past. Let us seize this moment to begin a serious discussion about the realities of the strategic environment we face, and what we will need to survive in it.

moreover,

American military thinking is also clouded by another pervasive myth: that preparing to fight a particular war makes it more likely to occur. The Cold War offers the most obvious refutation of this notion. Military preparations on the Korean peninsula after 1953 would appear to offer another. Rising tensions and military escalations between the United States and Libya in the 1990s ended suddenly and almost completely after an extremely limited American air strike. India and Pakistan, China and the Soviet Union, even the People's Republic of China and Taiwan, have all engaged in more or less intense arms races and even military skirmishes without falling into major wars. There are sound arguments, on the contrary, that the weakness of states that support the status quo is more likely to lead to wars with predatory states that seek to change it.

So military theorists, planners, and budgeteers would do well today to look first at current enemies and likely threats as the basis for designing American military forces. Virtually no one is excited about the prospect of war with Iran, but failing to plan and prepare for it is irresponsible. No one is enthusiastic about the prospect of deploying forces to Pakistan--either in the event of a governmental collapse scenario or to support counter-terrorism operations--but that does not mean we might not have to do it. Will China ever attack Taiwan? Americans (and Taiwanese) emphatically hope not, but failing to be ready for such an eventuality would be strategic incompetence.

[brihaspati]

Once exposed to Marx difficult to take it out. By same token even Sagar Manthan can be seen in class struggle terms!

I would leave this one out - does not fit into my "agitprop" targets! Daksha-yajna dhundhumaar is better. I am worried that the real message of trimurti is being corrupted to a blinded/elitist version that hates the commons. We should be able to establish the real interpretation - which is firmly on the side of the aam, and not allow them to be hijacked for the delusional megalomania of some elite factions.

So shiva as the "declassed", living away from sophisticated "puris/urbanites", and challenging the elite for their arrogance or discrimination - should be the image that sticks - not clean/sanitized/deodorantized elite cute idol. Shiva the furious rebel and revolutionary and leading yes the muddy, dirty aam aadmi.

[ankitash]

X-posting from Indo-BD thread

Mods please delete this if you find it inappropriate, but I found this while lurking Paki fora. This in all probability refers to our (non-active) Bangladeshi poster AKalam

Finally one of my briliant friends has proved that partion caused downfall of Muslims in sub-continent and wanted vehemently to anul BD from map by aligning with BR walas. After three years of untiring efforts that following is what he has to say..

After dealing with Indians in BRF (bharat rakshak forum) for more than a year, I realized the following:


- that the Hindu Indians consider us as traitors, because they think those of us who converted to Islam, we left hinduism/buddhism and joined the enemy
- those of us who have foreign blood are of course descendant of mass murderers
- we even took their land away from them
- they will not cooperate with us under any circumstances
- all Muslims on this planet are their sworn enemy and Jat-shatru
- they will work with anyone including Zionists to malign and harm Muslims in any way possible and if possible wipe out Islam from the face of the earth
- if not for the unfortunate fact that it is beyond their means, they would exterminate all Muslims from the face of the earth (without using nukes, as it will render the soil unusable, which they need)
- they are only polite and want to hide their murderous intentions when they say they don't hate Muslims, they only want to convert us back, but not exterminate us


Now that I no longer post there, since the start of the Arab spring, they think that I have pulled a fast one on them, while posing as a friend and working with them, they think that I know too much, I have learnt the secret desires of their heart
The reality as I see it is:


- in 1947 we divided the Muslim community of subcontinent in 3 separate parts and by 1971, they are forever separated in 3 different countries, thus making it weaker and fragmented
- India since 1947 has a dominant hindu majority of around 85%, so they never want to dilute their majority, that is why they are so allergic to Bangladeshi Muslim migration, but are willing to accept Hindu Bangladeshi migrants and even have some saarc type union with Nepal and Sri Lanka, but not Bangladesh, Pakistan or Maldives. They want our land, but not Islam or Muslims.
- Indians have lost dominion over Pakistan and Bangladesh, but we, both Pakistani's and Bangladeshi's, forever lost our ownership of all of Indian landmass and its use
- if we did not have partition in 1947 and there was no Pakistan, we Muslims would be 40% of India, we could hold the Hindu by their throat and they would not dare their raise their finger on us today


So rightly they see that in 1947 partition, they were the winners and we, Muslims of subcontinent, were the losers. Once they have gained this position of advantage, under no circumstances will they allow us Muslims to gain this position back. So all this talk of SAARC was pure psy ops trying to fool me and the people through me, while they can continue to use AL and Hasina to control Bangladesh.Their ultimate intention is to keep Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan or any Muslims in the world, weak, fragmented and dependent on them or their friendly powers, while they continue to malign Muslims together with Zionists, saying that we are violent extremists and we want to take over the world.


My intention for the whole effort with them was a sincere attempt to find out, whether they are willing to work with us in a SAARC union, whether they can change their mind about Muslims, which fortunately gave me the opportunity to understand them well. The Arab Spring also came up while I reached and completed my understanding about them, and this Arab spring gave me hope as I was totally hopeless before about Muslims, which was the reason why I approached them in the first place.


After I understood all of the above and that it is not possible to gain anything from India, I started looking elsewhere. First my thought was that we need to organize ourselves and also look for alliances. To organize ourselves, I have started an effort:

All all talk of being of the indic race was taqiyya.

EDIT: here is an indirect link http://goo.gl/uDnPs

[a_kumar]

Americans are being urged to think more seriously in terms of war :

A thought came to me recently. What US (and the sane world) needs is a "Gorbechev" to do another "Gorbechev"!!

Looking at certain similarities, it seems USSR might be a good template to follow.

Fragmented States : Check
Nuclear weapons : Check
Covergence of power on one group : Check (mostly)
Brutal suppression in provinces : Check

The question is where is it fought (ie. who will play Afghanistan) and who is the king maker (ie. who will play TSPA).

[devesh]

A_Kalam suddenly disappeared. I don't know if the above quote is from him or not. but if it is, good riddance. and it doesn't bother me at all that he has learned whatever he has learned. I am glad he has learned it. I am also glad that I learned the tactics of Taqqiya.