Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 Oct 2011 03:42

devesh wrote:A_Kalam suddenly disappeared. I don't know if the above quote is from him or not. but if it is, good riddance. and it doesn't bother me at all that he has learned whatever he has learned. I am glad he has learned it. I am also glad that I learned the tactics of Taqqiya.

I will call him as an example of partial success by Poaks in their mission to change BM's gene pool within 12 month of 1971. IMHO, Indian economic success will burn many fires in the hearts our good neighbors yet none will warm their brain enough for constructive thought sprouting or to remove the grip of dogmatic worm.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 04 Oct 2011 10:22

brihaspati wrote: So shiva as the "declassed", living away from sophisticated "puris/urbanites", and challenging the elite for their arrogance or discrimination - should be the image that sticks - not clean/sanitized/deodorantized elite cute idol. Shiva the furious rebel and revolutionary and leading yes the muddy, dirty aam aadmi.

Yups!!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 Oct 2011 22:18

A Kalam has tried to analyse in the right manner but could not understand geo politics.
The geo politics of the sub continent is that all the periphery region have to align with the indic center to prosper.

Indic center is the geo political center of the entire region and cannot be ignored

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Oct 2011 09:29

Rahul Gandhi is our future leader: Pranab

Nothing that already wasn't known

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Oct 2011 19:27

So they made him kowtow and put an end ot his hopes and PC's at saem time.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 06 Oct 2011 03:19

Dada would not be allowed in any case. He is a stooge with weak power base from the periphery - hence ideal amatya, but not to be trusted with key power. He does not have the approval or connections of interfacing for long with the external interests.

Moreover as fund manager, he will have known too much to be needfully weak on the hot-seat. Same goes for PC - disqualified for showing independence, and having some popular base in his region. But his and dada's very position at such a high level, implies the coterie must have sufficient dark material on these two, to allow them there.

One twist in all this could be the decision from externals that another family sacrifice is needed to ensure that the regime-arrangements continue. I guess the assessment is not complete yet - as to how useful the sacrifical lamb will be if allowed kicking and healthy. Hence the matriarchal protection and cloaking. But if the lamb is found to be more useful as an offering for slaughter, than as a docile muncher of political grass - there goes the lamb.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 06 Oct 2011 04:19

brihaspati ji,

sometimes reading your posts like above diffuses all hope. the tone of your post suggests that you clearly believe that the interested nexuses have almost a vice-like grip on the Indian political framework.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 06 Oct 2011 05:45

devesh wrote:brihaspati ji,

sometimes reading your posts like above diffuses all hope. the tone of your post suggests that you clearly believe that the interested nexuses have almost a vice-like grip on the Indian political framework.

The idea is to force a sensation of being walled in to be crushed - on a colony of sentient beings. Most will give up and rationalize as to why they all deserve being crushed after all. A few will defy. Even get angry and try to break the wall without thought - and perish, without even damaging the wall. Even fewer will plan to bring down that wall - and will subordinate even methods of bringing down, even their own eagerness for results perhaps - to the supreme objective of bringing down. I wait for them.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Oct 2011 06:36

Devesh dont despair. One has to first realise there is a wall. As the English poet Lovelace wrote

Stone walls do not a prison make,
Nor iron bars a cage;
Minds innocent and quiet take
That for an hermitage

and it means:

It means that your mind makes a prison for you. You can be in prison just by your social attitudes and fixations in life. If you work at a job that you hate and you would really like to be somewhere else, don't you think that you're in prison? If you are fixated on the idea that you have to have all of these possessions and in order to afford them you work 60 hours a week, aren't you in prison? We are all in prison even though we may not be behind a stone wall or bars. The question is do we want to get out and if we do, then how do we go about setting ourselves free. We are imprisoned by habits. We are imprisoned by social conventions. We are imprisoned by ideologies. We are in prison because we take the easy way out. This prison has lulled us to sleep and we are quietly complacent and bored, even depressed and don't even want to admit it. In order to taste freedom, it takes an act of bravery. Who among us can break their bonds and do what you really want to do and be with who you really want to be with. And even that doesn't make us free. Maybe freedom has to do with the mind breaking itself free and wandering into eternal life. You can sing and dance while in prison and convince yourself that you are free but until you can fly, you will still be bound by the limitations of earthly life.

This is the freedom that Tagore wanted. We still need that.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 07 Oct 2011 19:06

Strategy by definition means "over the long or at least the medium term". Strategy implies making investments today to get results tomorrow. Investment implies deliberately and consciously giving up immediate gratification for larger rewards in the long run. Giving up on immediate gratification requires a mature mind. A mature mind, by definition implies "having pride in oneself, one's family, one's comunity, one's nation and ultimately in one's species, ie. humanity". A Strategic thinker cannot be a strategic thinker without pride, as what else is there for a human being to fight for or to attain, if it is not one's pride and self respect. Pride is meant to be used in a good sense here, not false pride or false ego. Pride propels us to reach for meaningful and real things and make genuine improvements in ourselves. Pride never allows us to exaggerate our virtues and it never allows us to cover up or conceal our weaknesses. A person with pride actually seeks out weaknesses in oneself, so he can remove them, conquer them and replace those weaknesses with real strengths and real virtues. That is the life quest of a person with pride. Always to seek weaknesses within himself and constantly attempt to defeat them. Lord Shiva is the destroyer, not of virtue, but of all that is vile and weak in the universe. He destroys, not the good, but the bad, so that the good regenerates. He destroys for the purpose of purification and rebirth. Lord Shiva inspires us to find that power and force within us to be able to destroy the weaknesses inside of us and to purify ourselves. Lord Shiva has no tolerance for the weak, whether they be in the rich or the poor. Lord Shiva is neither a socialist nor a democrat. He is simply pure power, Shakti and pure Goodness. In fact, he is simplicity Himself.

When covering up our shorcomings become a dominant strain within a society, as it has become in the Indian society of today, then there can be no improvements, no self purification, no pride and thereby no effective strategy. All the efforts are spent in conjuring up "cover ups" of those weaknesses, the mind is not conditioned to seek out weaknesses in order to destroy them.

Will a proud person, a proud community, a proud nation in 2011 ever indulge in public defecation ? More importantly, will a proud person, a proud community, a pround nation in 2011 ever defend public defecation by more than half of its population ? And then this ultimate question, will a pround person, proud community, a pround nation in 2011 ever attempt to "cover up" and "make believe that this doesnt exist" the problem of lack of indoor plumbing in India and launch a vitriol against entities that try to seek out the problem in order to conquer it ? To defend and cover up public defecation is like defending and covering up corruption in India. Defending and covering up corruption has become not just a habit with most Indians today, but an integral part of their "Indianness". To defend and cover up such things are treason, worse than a military man giving out information to the enemy, far worse.

This poster believes that whether it be the problem of lack of indoor plumbing in India or an even larger problem of corruption in India (which is nothing but public defecation of an even larger scale), all these problems are eminently solvable, by Indians themselves. For that what is required is pride and self respect, which will automatically lead us to develop positive Strategies for the future. Covering up and defensiveness make these problems seem impossible to solve and make us demoralized and devoid of any pride and self respect.

I say to all nationalists, Rise up, let us all look inside of us. WE CAN NEVER CONTROL OTHERS' ACTIONS, WHETHER THEY BE MUSLIMS OR WEST OR ANY OTHER ENEMIES, ONLY OUR OWN. IT IS THROUGH CONTROLLING OUR OWN ACTIONS VIA AN EFFECTIVE STRATEGY THAT WE CAN AND THE ONLY WAY WE CAN DEFEAT OUR ENEMIES. We will find that we all have the strength to confront our own weaknesses and shortcomings and over come them. Be hopeful. Dont give up. We can solve all our problems, whether it be public defecation literally or the large scale public defecation problem of corruption metaphorically. We just need to be realistic, be self critical, seek out our flaws and we are hugely qualified to correct all our flaws, whatever they might be. Let us all have our own personal strategies to purify ourselves, for our own sake and our nations. LET US NOT SUCCUMB TO THE WEAKNESS OF DELUSION, COVERUPS, FALSE PRIDE, FALSE EGOS AND DEFENSIVENESS. THOSE ARE MAJOR WEAKNESSES IN THEMSELVES AND WE ARE ALL CAPABLE OF CONQUERING THEM. LET US NOW STRATEGISE AND DO IT.

May the Lord Shiva grant us the twin boons of Pride and Self Respect, two most potent weapons, which no one ever can take away from us.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 08 Oct 2011 01:27

Shivaji
I read part of your previous post. If I understood it correctly, I would certainly agree with some pertinent questions that you raise as 'Indianness'. You are at the right track to recognise the deepest issues in Indian context. I only hope many Indians would recognise this. Let me also add a bit to your points. Many Indians have extraordinary brillance which are not often recognised by themselves nor even by others. Indians have to believe in their own capabilities that they can do the best for themselves and also for the world. They are ofcourse in many contexts doing best not only within India but also outside India. It is this self assertiveness which is very much needed. Secondly Indians should have a big reform in the mindset of appreciating other Indians. Many Indians often praise other people and other countries not Indians. Even the media in India often fail to give prime place for Indian achievers. I hope oneday Indians will recognise their own as the best besides recognising others! Just an addition to what you wrote!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Oct 2011 01:58

BBC: Kerala churches reward big families

Several Christian parishes in the Indian state of Kerala have begun offering incentives to couples who produce more children, officials say.

One church of the Syro-Malabar denomination in Kerala's Wayanad district has offered 10,000 rupees ($200) for a couple's fifth child.

The move comes after a report submitted to Kerala's chief minister proposed imposing a strict two-child policy. {So much for rule of law. India's population problem by west and (sic)secular dhimmis etc}

But church groups have aired concerns about dwindling numbers of Christians.

Census statistics show that the number of Christians has been in steady decline. Unofficial estimates say they could slip below 18% of Kerala's population in the latest census.

But the figures also show that the Hindu population in Kerala may be declining faster than the Christian one. Muslims are increasing in numbers.

The state's Hindu and Christian populations declined by 1.48 and 0.32 percentage points respectively, while Muslim numbers increased by 1.7 percentage points between 1991 and 2001.

Nevertheless church groups have expressed considerable concern about the trend.

"Our campaign is for responsible parenthood but the decision on how many children a couple should have is personal. We are not against family planning," said Fr Paul Thelakkat, a spokesman for Syro-Malabar Church, which is advocating the policy of rewarding procreation.

Although the church hasn't announced rewards statewide, Fr Thelakkat says individual parishes have been offering incentives to have more children. Some have even offered free treatment at their hospitals for large families. {religion is personal prerogative onleee. Christian Service organizations are (sic) secular onlee. Mother Teresa cured cancer onlee so she is a saint onlee}

Kerala's Catholic church has also mounted campaigns promoting larger families.

But a recent 12-member panel for the Commission of Rights and Welfare of Women and Children submitted a report to the government last month recommending harsh punishments, such as three months in prison or a 10,000 rupee fine, to any father expecting a third child.

Christian and Muslim groups condemned the report, saying it encroaches upon their religious freedom. {Et tu pious secular law-abiding Indian Christians }

But the leader of the Hindu United Front in the state said "the two-child norm should be strictly enforced in India as we have limited resources to share among us". {Ebil Yindoos. How dare they seek equal share in natural resources }

Kummanam Rajashekharan added that the spate of church campaigns encouraging procreation only serve to create tensions between the religious communities.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 08 Oct 2011 02:47

I guess some of us have discovered the sanitation problem in India only recently, and therefore have not yet had the time to look up various organizations which are already working in their own small ways to to do something about it.

Mods let me know if it is okay to suggest searching for Sulabh sauchagar movement on the web. They have the usual bits and pieces thrown in about gratuitous assumption on Indian "habits" and "traditions" [forget archeological evidence of urban sanitation planning] but also at least concede the important factor of economic means needed to support and maintain the conventional western models and technologies.

Their technology page provides a list of working technologies that are more based on waste management and recycling, based more on sustainability and affordability than extensive centralized western style sewerage systems.

I personally know that these guys at least are doing/have done some concrete work. But the attitude of the founder - as far as I know - was first of kindness and identification with the target population than extreme vituperative abuse on them for their apparent community-hygiene-negligence.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 08 Oct 2011 02:50

RamaY wrote:BBC: Kerala churches reward big families

Several Christian parishes in the Indian state of Kerala have begun offering incentives to couples who produce more children, officials say.

One church of the Syro-Malabar denomination in Kerala's Wayanad district has offered 10,000 rupees ($200) for a couple's fifth child.

The move comes after a report submitted to Kerala's chief minister proposed imposing a strict two-child policy. {So much for rule of law. India's population problem by west and (sic)secular dhimmis etc}

But church groups have aired concerns about dwindling numbers of Christians.

Census statistics show that the number of Christians has been in steady decline. Unofficial estimates say they could slip below 18% of Kerala's population in the latest census.

But the figures also show that the Hindu population in Kerala may be declining faster than the Christian one. Muslims are increasing in numbers.

The state's Hindu and Christian populations declined by 1.48 and 0.32 percentage points respectively, while Muslim numbers increased by 1.7 percentage points between 1991 and 2001.

Nevertheless church groups have expressed considerable concern about the trend.

"Our campaign is for responsible parenthood but the decision on how many children a couple should have is personal. We are not against family planning," said Fr Paul Thelakkat, a spokesman for Syro-Malabar Church, which is advocating the policy of rewarding procreation.

Although the church hasn't announced rewards statewide, Fr Thelakkat says individual parishes have been offering incentives to have more children. Some have even offered free treatment at their hospitals for large families. {religion is personal prerogative onleee. Christian Service organizations are (sic) secular onlee. Mother Teresa cured cancer onlee so she is a saint onlee}

Kerala's Catholic church has also mounted campaigns promoting larger families.

But a recent 12-member panel for the Commission of Rights and Welfare of Women and Children submitted a report to the government last month recommending harsh punishments, such as three months in prison or a 10,000 rupee fine, to any father expecting a third child.

Christian and Muslim groups condemned the report, saying it encroaches upon their religious freedom. {Et tu pious secular law-abiding Indian Christians }

But the leader of the Hindu United Front in the state said "the two-child norm should be strictly enforced in India as we have limited resources to share among us". {Ebil Yindoos. How dare they seek equal share in natural resources }

Kummanam Rajashekharan added that the spate of church campaigns encouraging procreation only serve to create tensions between the religious communities.

Sorry but all hindus do is whine. Most have 1-2 kids because of the expense of raising the kid etc. These other folks dont think of it and to be honest Muslims really milk the system (subsidies etc) to support their families.
The problem is that this is a lose lose situation. India cannot support such gargantuan populations.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 08 Oct 2011 03:27

It is important to not only rave and rail at situations and people apparently responsible/stuck in them, but also to analyze the trajectory by which the mess was arrived at.

Without such an analysis, we may miss important factors that led to the final mess. Poverty, economic ruination of rural as well as semi-urban communities in the medieval period under penalizing taxation and exploitation from sultanate and Mughal administration - often destroyed community and settlement structures. Migration, displacement, temporary settlements, criminalization, combined with continued such disruptive processes under the early British transition - never really allowed recovery of stable, sustainable settlement patterns.

Many older, stable settlements, were abandoned, and skills and knowledge bases lost. I knew of an ironsmith who could forge portable hand cannons, and replicated muskets - who escaped from a rampaging mob of "soldiers", all whose skilled brothers were killed. His brother in law was a skilled mason who specialized in preparing brick lined sewerage lines. His hands had been chopped off. It was tried to get him to train juniors in the safe refuge - but obviously it was very difficult - and probably all his skills were not transferred. I have personally seen elaborate ancient sanitation mechanisms based on channeling flowing water and cess-pit traps. I have seen strict enforcement of separate lakes for drinking water and baths. I can also describe the specifics of preparation, cleaning/maintenance of such lakes. Also subsequent further treatment [sequence of pots with layers of filters - charcoal/sand/fine sand] and finally boiling.

Before judging the "people" for their apparent lapses - whatever - lack of pride, awareness, I hope we study them, mix with them, and know their past - and not from a pedestal of knowing much better than them. The first act is an act of kindness of feeling. Until the time you first feel all your people as your children, do not show the arrogance of trying to correct their errors, or chastizing them for their faults. Only one who loves and cherishes, has the right to scold.

I apply the same principle when I select out only the mullah for "scolding" and correction and if intransigent - for elimination - and not the people forced to be born into their shadows. Because I have first mixed with them, lived among them, and been shown tremendous affection and support from at the least the "mothers" among them - who have protected my life on occasions and even stood against their mullahs for that.

I have moved intimately with groups of Indian Christians, Indian Muslims including Kashmiri Muslims, adivaasis. Typically, with the weaker, marginal, "aam" profiles among them. I speak from that experience and conviction. I do urge this attitude on all who wishes to do anything for their homeland. The symbolisms in Indic texts and lore - about deities and practices - are double edged swords. They should not only be interpreted from the elite, hierarchical, isolationist, disdainful, opportunistic and exploitative viewpoint. They carry very powerful memes encoding the viewpoint of the "wretched", and their legitimate demands for power and reform.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 08 Oct 2011 03:38

Dunno if this has been posted:
http://meaindia.nic.in/mystart.php?id=190018351

Address by NSA at the Cariappa Memorial Lecture on “The Role of Militaries in International Relations”

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 08 Oct 2011 06:19

People who prefer to spend on motorcycles, TVs, lavish marriages, cell phones and other materialistic things rather than installing indoor plumbing dont need kindness, they require a kick in the behind, regardless of their numbers.

People who prefer to partake in corruption rather than opposing it by lavishly availing themselves of massive subsidies, transfer payments and unfair reservations, all the while indulging in anti-national behaviour such as voting on narrow and sectarian grounds, dont need kindness, dont even need any sympathy, they only require a kick on their behinds, regardless of their numbers.

Appeasement of any kind is wrong, whether it be of poor muslims or of anyone else. There are plenty of others in India, who carry their own weight and get consistently dumped on by the governing dispensations in India, who are more deserving of kindness and sympathy. Kindness, like everything else, should be reserved for the deserving and on merit, not dispensed because some group merely has large numbers.

If the grassroots were so pure, they would not be selling out, election after election and vote for the worst possible scum. If the grassroots were so holier than thou in India there would not be any need for a revolution. They could simply vote in good people. Revolution, by definition, is use of force, and that is a last resort, required only when the masses dont make the right electoral decisions.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 08 Oct 2011 07:41

If unchecked and without a radical change in the current trajectory, the Indian grassroots is racing, nay, hurtling towards forced conversion to Islam and it is taking all the other Indians to hell with it. If anyone thinks what I say is harsh and devoid of love for our grassroots, wait till there is a modern day Gori or a Ghaznavi who arrives and rapes and pillages and massacres till everyone become "Abduls". There will be one puny voice among the poor and the helpless who would have been herded in the city square to be forcibly converted, saying, "where is the love, where is the kindness, my master?" and the master would reply, "you should have thought about that a hundred years ago, did you show respect to your fellow hindu or did you spend all your time, picking quarrels and screwing your brother Hindu, out of envy and self hatred and jealousy ? Now repeat after me, La ilah illa Allah..........".

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Oct 2011 07:49

^ a bigger threat than islam to India is EJs, which is Payomukha Vishakumba.

While Islam draws battle lines, EJs weaken India from within.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 08 Oct 2011 16:07

Jarita wrote:Sorry but all hindus do is whine. Most have 1-2 kids because of the expense of raising the kid etc. These other folks dont think of it and to be honest Muslims really milk the system (subsidies etc) to support their families.
The problem is that this is a lose lose situation. India cannot support such gargantuan populations.

I have been clear on this. Indics need to procreate until the balls burst, or the woman throws you out of the door! Have as many children as possible, love them, instill some Dharmic values into them, give them a good education, and send them out into the world to procreate more!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 08 Oct 2011 18:44

Hating and cursing the grassroots for their apparent weaknesses and their projected escape out of the so-called "dharmic" fold - is a self-fulfilling prophecy. This immense loathing of the commons is a great contributory factor towards any future "conversions".

First get rid of your social hierarchies and claims of distinctions and superiority simply by birth in certain clans/castes/jaatis/varnas.

A complete disconnect with the reality of elections, and lack of acquaintance with inner political organizational processes and procedures by which votes are ensured or extracted - can blame a lot of the "grassroots" for their apparent inability to vote "properly". Coercion has many forms - and many in most subtle forms. Coercion comes in subtle but deadly control over economic resources, interfaces to the rashtryia machinery, and wonderful interfaces between political/mercantile/criminal networks solidly mediated by old elite clan networks - the very sections of society that produce elite haters and cursers of commons.

Yeah, hate and curse the "grassroots" more - and then they will throng the Maoists and the Islamists more - for they at least hold out the hope of empowerment and dignity, however false promises or taqyia they are, they at least don't start out by cursing and blaming those they seek to convert to their own ways.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Oct 2011 19:29

^+1.

Focus should be on leadership, organization and theology.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 08 Oct 2011 19:34

Focus should also be on consolidation of the Dharmic thought among the poorer Jaatis, the "Dalits"! These are still all constituencies on the fence.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 08 Oct 2011 22:37

So here is the thought process in la-la land.

1. It is ShivajiSisodia and his kind that are responsible for creating the "social hierarchies and claims of distinctions and superiority simply by birth in certain clans/castes/jaatis/varnas". Never mind the fact that these hierarchies were created during the Vedic times, somewhere around 2000 BC, if not earlier, when ShivajiSisodia's ancestors were roaming the Scythian homelands of South Georgia and did not arrive in India until about 90 BC as part of the Indo-Scythian migration (not to be confused with the now debunked Aryan invasion which was alleged to have occured much earlier). And therefore, of course, it is ShivajiSisodia's responsibility to eliminate these, with one stroke, notwithstanding the fact that they are powerless to do so in the current "mobocratic" dispensation that is India. And they are not allowed to go outside of the "democratic system" either.

2. Shivajisisodia and his kind have no right to demand that the "commons" act in their own interests because the commons are children and being angry with them for acting suicidally, will somehow create a self fulfilling prophecy of the "commons" rushing to embrace Mullaism. So, all the conversions which now account for roughly 40% of the population of the subcontinent, are also the fault of ShivajiSisodia and his kind.

Let me respond this way to the "la-la landers".

A few millions of us like minded people, who are a small minority in India (about 35 to 50 million), would like our own separate Hindu Nation within India. We would like to separate. There have been subterranian conversations going on for almost a decade now, in certain circles and these conversations have now become more intense in after dinner meetings etc. The most probable and popular scenario is to use the ancient Gurjar-Pratihara state as a starting point and then establishing a modern Hindu Nation in the areas that include Gujarat, Parts of Rajasthan adjoining Gujarat, Parts of Maharashtra adjoining Gujarat all the way down to the Malabar Coast and parts of MP, adjoining Gujarat. We dont want to carry any "baggage" and the "commons" and their friends will be free of us too. These commons are then free to rush to embrace Mullaism, as that is going to happen anyway, the way India is going right now. We dont want to go down with the rest of India. We will be a last refuge, a fortified Hindu state built on the principles of liberalism, meritocracy, chivalry, mutual respect among individuals, individual rights and no caste hierarchies. Time has come, where we dont want all the "commons" in India. They can have the rest of India, embrace Islam, do whatever they want. We will be well fortified and a hard state. We will be well protected.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Oct 2011 00:20

Well, well, an exemplary idea!
RamaY ji, can you please simulate this in your program? Specifically include the role of existing IA, IN and IAF. Also realignment of the southern and northern networks in a process by which Islamists will emerge stronger by helping the IA/Delhi crush the nascent state.

This was exactly what I wanted to hear. This sort of thing has been going around for many years. No wonder that the dreaming always starts around Gujarat, [and makes it a point to make it the focus] and people fall for the trap laid by the regime.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 09 Oct 2011 00:27

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 09 Oct 2011 01:01

Never mind the fact that these hierarchies were created during the Vedic times, somewhere around 2000 BC, if not earlier, when ShivajiSisodia's ancestors were roaming the Scythian homelands of South Georgia and did not arrive in India until about 90 BC as part of the Indo-Scythian migration (not to be confused with the now debunked Aryan invasion which was alleged to have occured much earlier).

Sir please study some history and updated one at that, I don't want to derail the thread but there is no truth in this claim of "Scythian" or any other origin for most Rajputs, this will be the only post regarding that in this thread.

It was James Tod who first came up with this theory and understandable given the time he was writing in with the limitations he had in terms of language barrier and historical sources (he wrote in 1820s and died in 1835, even when back in England he would write articles full of goodwill for the Hindus but describing the barbarism of Islam which makes him much hated by the seculars and Muslims of our day), but since then we have a much more clear understanding of the origins of various Rajput clans based on epigraphical and other sources never available to Tod.

Check post # 2 here:

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... na-debate/

You may also ask member Airavat here for more info.

Before coming up with grand solutions, one should at least have a proper clue about our history.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Oct 2011 03:12

Sanku ji,
its been around. Just the thing to destroy any real start. Its not real.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 09 Oct 2011 03:14

^^^^
I do not require history lessons from you Sir, particularly about my own history. You can peddle your snake oil elsewhere.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Oct 2011 03:20

In support of surasena ji, Tod was one of early Brits most sympathetic specifically towards "Hindus" and took a keen interest in seeking out the stories. Just as the two chief translators of the compilation on Indian history based on Persian records. They obviously were limited by the knowledge of their times.

He is absolutely right that a greater awareness of further developments from the romantic times of Tod, is needed, and there is also no need to get overtly excited by each new fantasy bombarded from the west - just as there is no need to swallow everything the official establishment plays at.

Its good that the program has been spelled out.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 09 Oct 2011 03:23

I did not expect people to like the option that I talked about.

The Sikh separatist movement was also pooh-poohed before it actually became a movement.

The Kashmiris were considered "in the bag" before 1992.

The Nexalite movement was also the object of a lot of derision, before it became a serious threat in the late 1990s.

The Telangana movement was also underestimated.

The Hindu movement has not even begun yet, there have just been some stray incidents here or there conducted by some loose cannons. If people want to underestimate the movement, that is their business. One thing I can tell you is that the Hindu movement will not take any vote, least of all the vote of those BRF posters who pooh pooh the idea. When it will happen, it will happen. Unfortunately, India has rarely been one entity in its entire history and is not destined to be one entity in the future, because Indians have different agendas and different priorities, and they cant agree on these priorities and agendas, based on a fair compromise. People just want to take advantage of other people, even if it leads to separation. So, there it will be.

It is actually those who believe that no matter how corrupt and unjust the Indian system becomes, India will stay a united entity, are the ones who are living in a fantasy world, what I call, a la-la land. There is a breaking point for everything and it will come soon, unless the trajectory is reversed. Delhi will be crushed anyway, Delhi is already lost. We just want to save the other areas, which have a possibility to be saved.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 09 Oct 2011 03:24

shivajisisodia wrote:^^^^
I do not require history lessons from you Sir, particularly about my own history. You can peddle your snake oil elsewhere.

Good, carry on in your ignorance and continue making an ass out of yourself.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Oct 2011 03:35

So we want to be a "threat" too? a la Maoists, Kashmir Valley separatists, Khalistanis, etc! Out of each - those which did not source from one of the three revealed proselytizations, EJist/Islamist/Marxist - all else were systematically crushed by the Indian state. How will the Nava-Gurjara-Pratihara have any different fate than the Khalistanis? They at least had Paki support to an extent - that means US and western support at that period. "Hindu" will get such support now from that backing?!

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 09 Oct 2011 03:53

^^^^^^^^^

Most of the other movements were not righteous in their cause, thats why they lost. But even as they lost, they chipped away significantly from the national strength in a lasting way. The Sikhs still are divided, as a significant number of them, deep inside their hearts, no longer have the same loyalty to the Indian nation as they once had.

Whether the Hindu movement will succeed or not, is only known to Lord Shiva, not to any human. However, it is sufficient for humans to know that if the Indian state tries to confront the Hindu movement in any significant way, it(the Indian state), will be permanently crippled, win or lose. Hindus of a certain stripe are a very stubborn people which history proves. They will keep coming back, after every defeat, until victory is achieved. The Indian state and the rest of India disrespects this movement at its own peril. We are great defenders and friends, but equally ferocious adversaries, if forced to be in that position. At the bottom of it all, we dont calculate like others do. We dont worry about the odds of winning or losing, we simply fight, for a righteous cause. Victory or defeat is upto Lord Shiva.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Oct 2011 04:24

^

that is exactly how Asuras lived.

Bade ji - remember our discussion a while ago where I said Adharmic/Asuric forces doesn't always have to be non-Hindu?

Ravana was the best Shiva devotee!

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 09 Oct 2011 04:49

Some people may be wondering why I feel so strongly that I am even willing to disassociate myself from the Indian nation. Here is why.

1. I am sick and tired of living under a dispensation where there is no law and order and my family does not feel secure, even basic security.

2. I am sick and tired of living in a dispensation, where the law of the jungle prevails and the lines are blurred between the politicians and some unscrupulous business interests and hardcore criminals.

3. I am sick and tired of living in a dispensation that fails to protect my religion and kowtows to foreign religions.

4. I am sick and tired of all the corruption that pervades this society.

5. I am sick and tired of the massive collective punishment that has been imposed on me by this dispensation for the past 65 years. How ? In the name of past injustices, I am being called an oppressor, even by some "well meaning" people on this forum. I have no power to be an oppressor, but after 65 years, I have decided that I will now seek to empower myself to fight and defend my family, my community from this unjust slur. I am forced to pay taxes that go to a certain section of the population as transfer taxes, while I see no benefits to me or my family from the taxes I pay. My children are academically qualified and are capable of paying their own way, but still there is no certainty that they will be able to get the education of their choice in this country, because of heavy reservations in place.
I am perfectly willing, even as someone who is extremely proud of his heritage and history, to accept every human being as equal to me going forward and to live in peace and equity with everyone, but what I am not willing to do anymore is to continue to be subjected to this collective punishment going forward. I say, 65 years are enough. I will not take it anymore. And please, I dont need any lectures to "love" people who are unjustly being enriched at my expense via collective punishment being imposed on me and enjoying all the power in this dispensation. For what ? How long will this collective punishment go on ? Another 10 years, 30, 50, 65, 165 ? I took it all my life, but now, when I see my children and other people's children, I dont want my children to be subjected to this collective punishment. For what ? What crime has our children committed, to be subjected to not only monetary punishment but also psyops in the form of being oppressed and then being called the oppressors.

6. I am sick and tired of living in a filthy country with polluted public spaces, rivers, lakes, oceans and even air. All this is an outward manifestation of filth inside people.

So, if I dont want to live with the above shortcomings, what are my options ? I am being told that I should go out, be kind to the same people who are imposing this collective punishment on me for decades and try to convince them via "love" to change. So, what if I dont want to do that ? What if I just want to live ? I am not asking for special privileges from anyone, but just my basic rights as an individual. Why should I be expected, if I dont want to and just want to live, to go out and convince the entire grassroots, which has been been corrupted by undeserving goodies going to them at my expense, to just let me live and let me educate my kids and allow me to have some basic security for my family ? I am sorry, I dont want to go out and live among the commons and convince them of anything.

So what are my options ? Either to live in this filthy environment or try to disassociate myself from this dispensation. I and some like minded people go our own way with proportional territories and the rest of the dispensation goes their own way and impose any amount of collective punishment on everybody as their heart desires.

This is not a rant. This is an explanation why there is so much restlessness among at least some powerful Hindu circles and there are rumblings and there are whispers of separation. Cause and effect will play itself out. People cannot be pushed into a corner where they have no other choice but to separate. Whether it will be me or someone else, mark my words, if the trajectory is not changed, a Hindu movement will emerge and that will be the end of India as we know it. The Indian state cannot come out a winner in this confrontation. They can only have a military victory, but at the expense of heavy political defeat.

The commons already rule this country and we now see what their rule is like. The politicians by and large come from the "commons". They are voted for by the commons. Look what these "commons", who have a few fans on this forum have done.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Oct 2011 05:50

the above posts are all going into my special BRF posts word document. the feeling of elitism, the contempt for masses, the disgust/disdain for the "stupid" Hindu, these are all classic hallmarks of those who are already defeated in mind. their "future" hopes are narrowed down to some specific section where they "hope" reconstruct the "ideal" state, but they fail to understand that the very idea of "cutting" down to a specific geography basically ensures the eventual defeat. Vijayanagara is a classic example of this. in the end, it was confined to a geography that could not hope to defeat Islam without help from some other part of India. it had to gain land. if it couldn't eventually its luck would run out. that's what happened to VN. it resisted, fought, and persisted for more than 200 years. but ultimately, it could not expand Northward beyond its immediate periphery. and eventually a Northern coalition formed which destroyed it.

that is a mistake not to be repeated again. Land is important. there is no substitute for it. unless there is a really good chankian plan which practically assures success, NEVER give up land.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 09 Oct 2011 06:08

devesh wrote:that is a mistake not to be repeated again. Land is important. there is no substitute for it. unless there is a really good chankian plan which practically assures success, NEVER give up land.

Very important point to remember.

The realization
In past the Hindu-s close to the sImAnta-pradesha-s were concerned about the intrusion of barbarous peoples. For example, in the kathA-sarit-sAgara of the great kavI somadeva, viShNu tells the deva-s that he has caused the emergence of gupta kings like vikramAditya and trivikramasena, strengthened them by his power, to clear the land of the bhArata-s irruptions of the dreadful mlechCha-s (i.e. hUNa-s and Iranian invaders). The consciousness of the need to attack garjanapura (Ghazna) and drive out the Arabs and Turks was also not lacking. Unlike the claims of several modern historical narratives, this was not lost on Hindu kings over a long phase of history nearly lasting 7 centuries. That was not restricted to the kings closer to the sImAnta. The great chAlukya vikramAditya-04 from the south sent a force to attack the turuShka-s from garjanaka and drive them off the Panjab (http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/20 ... and-nepal/). Much latter the mahArATTa-s from the south also set their objectives as taking back the land of gandhAra...

http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/20 ... -identity/

According to Hari Ram Gupta the Marathas were offered an alliance by the Shah of Iran against Abdali if they agreed to fix the Sindhu as the boundary but this was rejected by them as they considered Afghanistan part of their own sphere of influence.

shivajisisodia · Post by **shivajisisodia** » 09 Oct 2011 07:04

Everyone understands land is important and unity is important. But people are talking as if there is a real choice. Having all of India as Hindu is not a real choice, at least right now. The only real choices we have is between total destruction of Hindus and creating a smaller "hard" Hindu state, where the real traditions, a way of life and all that is good in our culture and religion can be preserved and all that is flawed is cut off.

While any 2nd grader knows that the more the land and the more the numbers, in general, the better off a people are, but exceptions are always there. In India traditionally down to the present, India doesnt have a united populace, never did. Today, we have 1 billion different groups and thought patterns, with no common meeting ground. We can be two billion tomorrow and six times the land, we still wont be able to protect it, because we insist on being unfair with each other. No one in India wants to carry their fair share of the burden, if they can help it and dump on those who cannot help it. In fact, at one time, territory under India's cultural influence ranged from Afghanistan in the North to Indonesia in the South and everything in between. We lost it nevertheless. If land is important, then why did we lose it ? While at the same time, small communities and nations such as the Jews, the Irish, the Malay and others have survived quite well, thank you. Why ? Because they compensated for their smallness by getting other things right.

A smaller Hindu nation will also compensate for its size and get other things right. The larger dispensation as it exists has ZERO chance of survival in the medium term, if it can be called alive at this point, which is debatable. A growing school of thought is that India is dead already. At what point will we call the Dead, actually Dead ?

Everyone likes Big and I am no exception. It is only when one sees no hope in the survival of a larger entity, does one even begin to consider the possibility of a smaller entity.

On a different note altogether, I am amused by the "names" that I am being called for presenting a contrarian point of view.

:) Calling names, of course is the last refuge of the intellectually bankrupt.

:) Although I am rather enjoying reading some of the names I am being called and enjoying the novelty of experiencing the kind of mind that can conjure up these names.

:) So far, "Asura" is my favorite.

;):);)

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 09 Oct 2011 07:17

SS ji,

You do realize the fact that this forum platform is literally one of a handful that would give your posts and line of thinking a patient hearing. IMO you are doing yourself and your brethren of alike mindset a great disservice by mentally and verbally abusing people who make up this forum, all of whom come from the very same grassroots and commons. Even if your objective of navaGurjara-Pratihara is taken seriously, it will be a premature reaction and will indirectly strengthen the hands of Bharat's civilizational enemies.

Do think of the fact that this new state will effectively be a further truncation of Bharat, Indics will then not even be able to hold a candle in front of the Sino-Islam arc across Asia, all due to the selfish personal ambitions of a few. You would actually go down in history as Duryodhana re-incarnated, who brought war to entire jambudveepa just for the sake of one Hastinapura city.

Think about the greater good of Bharat sir.