Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 08 Oct 2011 09:19

prithvi wrote: .....
God forbid .. if something goes wrong.. can the dummy warhead fall into a populated region--different country and all.. what is the international convention in those scenarios... i remember a year back failure of Bulava in Scandinavia...

There's no real need to use up favours with God. There isn't much happening in that direction anyway.

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Oct 2011 10:34

DRDO sources indicate the Agni-5 could easily be ramped up into an intercontinental ballistic missile, having a range greater than 5500 km.

Loving it...

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 08 Oct 2011 11:29

PratikDas wrote:
prithvi wrote: .....
God forbid .. if something goes wrong.. can the dummy warhead fall into a populated region--different country and all.. what is the international convention in those scenarios... i remember a year back failure of Bulava in Scandinavia...
There's no real need to use up favours with God. There isn't much happening in that direction anyway.

What an effort.. thanks anyway...however when a projectile re-enters earth.. with earth itself is moving..i m not sure this straight line theory works that well.. may be I am just drunk...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Oct 2011 12:59

the impact point will be on a line connecting western australia with madagascar island. no populated islands in that region except some french owned kerguelen group which is around 1500km to the west of proposed impact point - ie quite safely out of harms way.

the 5000km range claim if you use ruler in google earth from orissa is carefully calibrated to cover the northeast of china, but leaves out most of japan, all of the mediterranean rim and western europe and ofcourse amir khan.

for marketing purposes 5000km is the ideal range to project.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Oct 2011 13:03

if A5 is 17.5m and 50t, comparing to specs of trident d5, is must be considerably slimmer than 2.11m because its 8t lighter yet 4m longer.

Height 13.41 metres (44.0 ft)
Diameter 2.11 metres (83 in)
Mass 58,500 kilograms (129,000 lb)
Stages 3

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Oct 2011 13:27

Singha wrote:if A5 is 17.5m and 50t, comparing to specs of trident d5, is must be considerably slimmer than 2.11m because its 8t lighter yet 4m longer.

Height 13.41 metres (44.0 ft)
Diameter 2.11 metres (83 in)
Mass 58,500 kilograms (129,000 lb)
Stages 3

Could the difference in composition of propellents account for the difference. I think Massa would ahead of us in the chemicals used for propollents.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 08 Oct 2011 13:31

^^Singha, the assumption being that the A5 propellant/payload/guidance density is not significantly less that Trident, which would also go someways towards explaining Trident's (supposed) x2 range advantage over A5...
EDIT: I see Aditya_V has made the same point.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Oct 2011 13:38

Could the launch point make a difference to range? You put a missile on a sub and launch it from the equator or some such thing?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Oct 2011 14:16

@17.5 m long this is never going to be a SLBM.

K-4 will have to be a different fatter design, perhaps with the warhead section and 3rd stage as concentric and composite 1st stage to do more with less.

imo the A5 our desi SS-18/MX - the heavy ICBM, with more payload and mirv, while K-4 will be less payload but to the same range. K-4 will be the more refined and sophisticated weapon.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 08 Oct 2011 18:21

With Russian help, India to join ICBM big league soon

:
India is all set to join the select group of nations capable of launching nuclear strikes across continent. With Russia ready to provide the cutting-edge “seeker” technology for India’s Agni-V intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), the country is ready to flaunt its nuclear might in a big way by year end when the ICBM will undergo its maiden launch.
:

arya · Post by **arya** » 08 Oct 2011 18:54

lahaul-bila-kuwat! DDM again its best.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 08 Oct 2011 20:42

dinesha wrote:
Vipul wrote:Agni-5 to fly halfway to Antarctica.
That allows a smaller warhead, perhaps 150-250 kilotons, to cause substantial damage. We don’t want to cause wanton damage (with megaton warheads),” says (Avinash ) Chander ( chief controller for missiles and strategic systems at DRDO)..
What does it say about the strategic nuclear arsenal? Flaws with the thermonuclear design has been sorted out and confidence on its functioning with reasonable desired result has been achieved?

You got it right mate..
India does posses a significant deterrent now. There were some 4 or 5 new designs thats been perfected through simulations with high yield.One of them is near half MT which is light weight compared to earlier designs.

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Oct 2011 21:10

The breakthrough with Russia for the most critical system of the ICBM came after extensive talks between delegations of the two countries during Defence Minister AK Antony’s three-day visit to Moscow earlier this week. The Indian delegation comprised senior missile scientists of the DRDO besides others, and Moscow agreed to help New Delhi for the ICBM project, sources said.

Errr, if the breakthrough for a Russian "seeker" came this week, how is it already being used in actual test-flight within 1-2 weeks of Russia even agreeing to provide the super-duper tech?

Damn DDM...

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 09 Oct 2011 01:53

Does a ballistic missile even need a seeker? I thought it only needed an inertial navigation system, like the indigenous ring laser gyro, and star sensors.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Oct 2011 02:51

The guy Rahul Datta may be writing about the potential INS for an ICBM class vehicle. Its not strap on type like RLG. Still odd article. As India already has such INS for launch vehicles for sats.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 09 Oct 2011 02:54

Thank you, ramana ji. I wasn't aware of the distinction in INS systems for IRBM / ICBM. I was under the impression that a ring laser gyro is only outdone by a fibre optic gyroscope and nothing else.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Oct 2011 02:59

supratik, Look this up

Inventing Accuracy

Donald McKenzie

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Oct 2011 06:23

I say, now we can get that lab configuration of u233-200kt maal out for adding the much needed NE deterrence. Didn't we hear increased dragon infiltration and unnecessary needling near the borders, and the recent links to high terror from pakis.

I say, go boldly and show it now. We can do it! we can smoke them out now, even 100meters from #1 Beijing center.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Oct 2011 08:44

imo the only help russia might provide is leasing of a missile tracking radar ship and some test procedures for ICBM mirv shots. they are not about to hand over the guidance units of sturgeon or Yars icbms to us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracking_ship

we do not have such ships which I think would be needed to track shots into the southern IOR. russia most certainly has multiple such ships (and so does china going by the wiki list above)

we could either buy one such used ship and re-equip with some of our own kit while retaining the basic tracking radar or order a new build ship from them for the long term.

for initial period though, we might need to lease one.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Oct 2011 09:04

so, how much work is required to build our own kit on our own ship?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Oct 2011 09:50

VinodTK wrote:With Russian help, India to join ICBM big league soon
:
India is all set to join the select group of nations capable of launching nuclear strikes across continent. With Russia ready to provide the cutting-edge “seeker” technology for India’s Agni-V intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), the country is ready to flaunt its nuclear might in a big way by year end when the ICBM will undergo its maiden launch.
:

Not surprising considering PAD missile uses Russian Seeker too .... we have some way to go to become self-reliant in seeker technology

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 09 Oct 2011 10:00

Looks like Russia did sell it to china as well, purely business. Where does the term help comes into , if its business ?
Interestingly, China perfected both its Space Satellites and Missiles in 1990's - after USSR Collapse, all from Russia's help. India did lose that wonderful decade and are doing catching up game now.

VinodTK wrote:With Russian help, India to join ICBM big league soon
:
India is all set to join the select group of nations capable of launching nuclear strikes across continent. With Russia ready to provide the cutting-edge “seeker” technology for India’s Agni-V intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), the country is ready to flaunt its nuclear might in a big way by year end when the ICBM will undergo its maiden launch.
:

arun · Post by **arun** » 09 Oct 2011 10:03

The MIT website carry’s a software package created by Geoffrey Forden of Arms Control Wonk that can simulate ballistic missile flight.

With the current flurry of ballistic missile tests someone may find the software useful.

A description of the simulation software follows:

GUI_Missile_Flyout is a stand-alone program running under Windows for simulating ballistic missiles with 1, 2, or 3 stages in a framework with a round, rotating Earth. Users can easily input all the necessary parameters in an intuitive graphical user interface (GUI). A modest number of quantities can be interactively plotted on the Interface but the complete trajectory can be saved as either an Excel or Matlab file for further analysis. The trajectory can also be directly displayed in Google Earth for visualization. The GUI can be used to optimize gravity turn parameters to maximize range or aim at a specific target (entered, as is the launch site) through latitude-longitude pairs. In addition to an introduction to using the program, this paper describes the integration of the three-degrees-of-freedom equations of motion and approximations made to the aerodynamic (such as a parameterized drag coefficient, Cd). ……………………

The Software, a hefty 150+ MB download, is available here:

GUI Missile Flyout

For a peek at what the software can do and what conclusions can be drawn see the simulation using GUI Missile Flyout mentioned above once again by Dr. Geoffrey Forden which was published in April 2007:

Clicky

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Oct 2011 10:04

Another important piece of news in that report is the availability of Mil Grade GLONASS signals , that would make possible the availability of cheaper JDAM types kit with GLONASS receiver for all weather accurate strikes , for artillery ammo and and accurate navigation.

Some time back Dr Pillai confirmed that GLONASS integrated with Brahmos land attack missile has worked well in the test conducted.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 09 Oct 2011 10:06

Austin wrote: ....
Not surprising considering PAD missile uses Russian Seeker too .... we have some way to go to become self-reliant in seeker technology

Interesting! The Press Trust of India disagrees with you.

PTI, Apr 16,2011: Must focus on making missiles for all platforms: Saraswat

India acquired BMD with technological aid of U.S.A and Israel.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Oct 2011 12:30

PratikDas wrote:
Austin wrote: ....
Not surprising considering PAD missile uses Russian Seeker too .... we have some way to go to become self-reliant in seeker technology
Interesting! The Press Trust of India disagrees with you.

PTI, Apr 16,2011: Must focus on making missiles for all platforms: Saraswat
India acquired BMD with technological aid of U.S.A and Israel.

Unless you have not followed it previously it quite known that Ka/K band seeker on PAD is a Russian one , they even showed the photo of seeker some time back and VKS confirmed the same in an Interview to FORCE. Indian BMD system does not use any US technology directly purchased or otherwise , it uses Israel GP radar and its derived LRTR , French AESA/MFCR for AAD and PAD seeker for Russia.

US does not directly aid Indian BMD system but does not object to Israel sale of such sensitive system to India like GP radar which was approved by Clinton administration in late 90's , DRDO scientist has already participated in US BMD test some time back plus US offered its own PAC-3 system which we have not accepted.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 09 Oct 2011 14:51

Thank you for the information! I couldn't find this being mentioned in the FORCE articles online and probably because I don't subscribe to view the full articles. I had seen the image of the seeker but I didn't think it was possible to deduce origins by looking at a chassis and wiring

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Oct 2011 15:10

PratikDas wrote:Thank you for the information! I couldn't find this being mentioned in the FORCE articles online and probably because I don't subscribe to view the full articles. I had seen the image of the seeker but I didn't think it was possible to deduce origins by looking at a chassis and wiring

Yes FORCE still does not maintain a archive of all their article except for last few issues but VKS interview across 3 years to force have provided good details on Indian BMD program , if I come across it i will post it.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 09 Oct 2011 15:41

Thank you once again. This DRDO page has a lot on Indian millimeter wave (mmW) sensors being robust enough for 10,000 G force and compact enough for a (Nag) anti-tank missile. My limited imagination doesn't let me understand why we couldn't use the same very-low-wavelength sensors for our own ABM.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 09 Oct 2011 18:55

This Agni-V missile will be inducted in double quick time. Even with this upcoming single test, induction might be Oked. China factor is the reason. There are preparations in every front for such showdown.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Oct 2011 19:12

PratikDas wrote:Interesting! The Press Trust of India disagrees with you.

India acquired BMD with technological aid of U.S.A and Israel.

PTI is DDM central, the fountainhead of most DDMitis affected articles in the media.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Oct 2011 20:46

Austin Let things come out or not by themselves eventually.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 09 Oct 2011 21:28

Rahul M, I won't forget this lesson. I let the title deceive me.

Ramana ji, no problem.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Oct 2011 01:15

A conical solid motor will have an interesting thrust profile. I guess its like a reduced burn rate at the end due to less fuel.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Oct 2011 03:01

Kanson. Agree that time is of essence. It all depends on the telemetry and how close its to nominal. And of the two trajectories for max forces and max heating the first is more critical as max heating has been flown many times.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Oct 2011 06:02

This article has useful information about missile defense systems.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Oct 2011 10:35

the surface area burning in conical motor will be less as time passes , but the overall weight is also reducing via propellant burn. I guess the idea is to cleverly take the warhead section upto around Mach20-23 range as it ballistically exits the atmosphere and then unleash the demon.

A5 being tried at full range shot clearly indicates the Panda is trying to browbeat us by deploying high density of new gen IRBMs in northern tibet as well as cruise missile batteries.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 10 Oct 2011 12:46

Do we need to take any permissions prior to these tests,like the UN etc to use international waters for the splash?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Oct 2011 13:57

no, we just issue a advisory few days ahead of test via shipping channels to avoid a particular grid area in so and so time etc.

if you recall a certain miscommunication in relaying news of a Agni2 test to indonesia had caused some panic in the cockpit of airliner flying west from sumatra as the fiery agni RV re entered and did the splashdown.

nits · Post by **nits** » 10 Oct 2011 14:58

Singha wrote:no, we just issue a advisory few days ahead of test via shipping channels to avoid a particular grid area in so and so time etc.

if you recall a certain miscommunication in relaying news of a Agni2 test to indonesia had caused some panic in the cockpit of airliner flying west from sumatra as the fiery agni RV re entered and did the splashdown.

As other side of coin - this advisory turns in other "intrested" party to track all such test...