Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Sep 2011 10:49

SriKumar wrote:I know Vishnu is mentioned, but there is no linkage to Krishna. Krishna who revealed the Gita perhaps should have found some mention/praise in the Rig Veda (being a philosophical commentary, in parts). Did the Mahabharata and the Dasa Avatara come after Rig Veda, then. .

Yes, the Veda's were already primarily composed much before MB.

Dasa Avatar has continued after MB.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Sep 2011 10:58

Sushupti wrote:
I find that the Gods praised there are Indra, Agni (bigtime), Maruts, Varun and then some lesser known gods like Mitra, Vasus etc.
As per conventional brahmanical understanding Indra of Rigveda is not the Indra of Puranas. Indra in Vedas is invariably stands for Brahmn.

This is yet anther myth from Max Muller diligently followed by maculyties who don't understand Sanskrit, no Hindu Mutt says this. when studying Hindu scriptures one must remember one does not become a Doctor by borrowing a couple of Medical books from a library and reading them in your house and in many cases a language the reader do not understand the language they are written in. You need guidance and Tutorship from a proper guru to study and understand thier meaning.

For example:- if you Vaishnavism and have a Vaishnava guru he will tell you that Indra is post and changes with every Manu and hence there will be 14 Indras in 1 Brahma's day, the present Indra is Purandhara and Bali in patala is slated to be next Indra as promised in Vamana Avatar.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Sep 2011 11:15

SriKumar wrote:A questions to the gurujans, sajjans and mahajans....I was skimming through a translation of the Rig Veda and I find that the Gods praised there are Indra, Agni (bigtime), Maruts, Varun and then some lesser known gods like Mitra, Vasus etc. Vishnu is mentioned quite a bit though not as much as Indra. Used this link: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/index.htm

Question is: how come some major gods like Krishna not mentioned. I know Vishnu is mentioned, but there is no linkage to Krishna. Krishna who revealed the Gita perhaps should have found some mention/praise in the Rig Veda (being a philosophical commentary, in parts). Did the Mahabharata and the Dasa Avatara come after Rig Veda, then. (Vedas are placed around 3500 years ago). The other 'explanation' might be some/many hymns in the Rig Veda were lost, and hence we dont know what else was there. I haven't read the Rig Veda enough to know if Vishnu was described in a manner that we know Krishna today. There are several other 'major' Gods that are not covered, but I just picked Krishna as an example.

Srikumar please read about the author Ralph T. H. Griffith

lph Thomas Hotchkin Griffith (1826-1906), scholar of indology, Son of Rev R C Griffith (Chaplain to the Marquis of Bath 1830) B.A. of Queen's College was elected to the vacant Sanskrit Scholarship on Nov 24, 1849.

His translation of the Rigveda follows the text of Max M.üller's six-volume Sanskrit edition.

There is no way his translation can be accepted.

Give me the Old Testament, New Testament and Quran in thier original languages Using google Hebrew to English, latin to english and Arabic to English I can come with some really colourful intrepretations which might offend the followers of these religions.

This is what the Maculytes have been doing for the last 150 years.

even the Maya, they are supposed be doing only Human sacrifices, how we do know that? because the Spainards who slaughtered in millions told us so? Isn't this like Murderer justying his deed taken as absolute truth?

P.S- People who are convinced that they are following the truth see no need to try and interpret other mans scriptures in which they have no belief. The fact that someone is trying to explain a belief system and find flaws they do not belive in itself indicates they feel they have lots of self doubt that whether what they are following is the truth.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 30 Sep 2011 12:39

Indra from vedas is my favourite characters.. Puranic Indra sucks.. they killed the man in puranas.. Even Sri Vishnu is "Upendra" (deputy of Indra, subordinate of Indra) in Rigveda. I will repeat my explanation of Indra here, since I love it and love speaking about it. It was while ruminating on this meaning that the concept of multidimensional "I" dawned to me. I won't use the word enlightenment as that is too much, the moment when suddenly a particular thing is clear in mind, the moment of Pragna awakening to show and realize the complete picture of concept. One of such best experiences was given to me my Indra.

The word "Indra" is a word play. Its vibhakti is "Idam dram sa Indraha" - One who sees this all, is Indra. basically Indra == Aatman.. Vritra is envelope/ignorance. Indra slaying Vritra is metaphor for self-realization. But as it is in Vedic shrutis, a metaphor is designed to make sense on multiple levels, as I have stated in deracination thread. same set of variables stand for different metaphors in different perspectives OR vantage points. the typical vantage point is definition of "I". "I" can be "I", intellect, mind, perceptive organs, body, family, community, society, nation, civilization, humanity, earth, solar system, galaxy, universe, multiverse, parabrahman. we "become" these "I" on various topics. When one says I think, or I feel, OR I see one is in energy level of buddhi, Mind (maanas) or Indriyas (perceptive faculties). while talking within family, "I" is body. while talking in neighbourhood, "I" (usually referred to as we but still is "I") is family. while talking in panchayat, "I" is community. while talking with pakis, "I" is Indian. while talking with martians, "I" is earthling. so on and so forth. in all these frames of reference "I" remains constant.. Indra is this "I". one who sees this all.

regarding avataras not mentioned in Vedas, well that is not the purpose of Vedas. And there are various parts of Vedas - samhita, upanishad, brahmana, aaranyaka. All this suite is called "shruti". And there are mentions of various characters from smriti like krishna, dasharatha etc in Upanishad part of shruti (example Chhandogya upanishad). The purpose of shruti is to preserve knowledge relevant in that era (hints are there from 23000 BC to 900 BC, in stages) in as concise form as possible. MBH happened in 3101 BC and that is around when Vyasa compiled the vedic data in four "folders". The process of sukta composition was ongoing for thousands of years. In fact, I have a question as to why didn't the composition of shruti not continue after about 900 BC. what happened that this composition stopped?

And if it is stopped, can't it be restarted? Will we be able to convince our seers to start updating and composing Shruti literature. It is a peer reviewed database of various opinions relevant in different times in India (which includes Afghanistan). Why can't this tradition be restarted? Last shackle of Deracination from our true Suvarna yuga. When tradition of composing "shruti" literature restarts. A tradition which seemilgly continued for so long (24000 years), it will be shame that it is discontinued this way.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 01 Oct 2011 06:28

Ati Dhanyavaad to all who replied. Couple of comments:
'Indra of Rig Veda is not the Indra of the puranas'- this is an interesting comment and I was thinking along these lines about Vishnu. So what 'properties' (or characteristics) of Vishnu are delineated in the Vedas that make him the same Vishnu of the puranas and epics. This is a really a question to myself, and is perhaps spelt out in Rig Veda and I just have to read it.

As regarding not trusting Griffiths' translations, a couple of points:my questions are quite basic and deal only with nouns (in the grammatical sense): Why is the name 'Indra' - whatever/whoever that might stand for in the Vedas, given more primacy than 'Vishnu'- whatever/whoever this name stands for. Just the number of hymns to this entity called Indra is an indicator of the importance given to it, and this is not easy to bias in a translation. Having said that, if there is a more reliable English translation of the Vedas (on the web), please do point me to it.

Essentially what brought about my question is the fact that the gods we worship the most today are not considered a big deal in the Rig Veda (with the exception of Ganesha, and perhaps Rudra, if the Rudra of Rig Veda is our current-day Shiva/Mahadeva.There might be others I am missing and I am not an expert). So how and why did this happen.

Rig Veda is assumed to be written around 2500 B.C. to about 1000 B.C. If this is true, I find it a bit odd that its content does not allude to anything relating to Krishna or his message, given that RgVeda is the source of a lot (if not all) of our philosophy. Vishnu is always mentioned as Vishnu and never as Krishna. This makes me wonder if the Rig Veda was actually written before MH (which is placed around 5000 B.C.). Sanku bhai agrees with the conclusion (not sure on what basis) but my reasoning (quite superficial) is purely based on what we do not see in the Rig Veda. My question about Dasa avatara not being in the Vesas is merely one more point along the same lines, that they likely came after Rig Veda. I do not expect a colorful set of stories like the Dasa Avatara to show up in Rig Veda.

The other possibility (just to consider all possible options) is that the Vedas came after MH but some of them were lost.

So Krishna is mentioned in the Chandogya upanishad. That changes things a bit. I now need to figure where that upanishad comes in chronology to the Rig Veda, and in what context is it mentioned. Thanks for indulging me.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 01 Oct 2011 06:45

Srikumar's questions lead me to another aspect of the vedas and puranas. It is widely believed that they were transmitted orally for a good period before being penned. The earliest versions of the written vedas currently at the bhandarkar institute in pune are from the gupta period which is AD. The same is said about the puranas, i.e. about them being transmitted orally and then penned.

So this brings a question about chronology of the various works since they were transmitted orally before being written. Therefore it must be ascertained by examining the verses used. Rig veda is supposed to have older forms of expression compared to the sibsequent ones and items such as iron, description of natural features are used to line them up in time. So in that respect, is there a difference in language between the puranas and the vedas? If there is, then that might lead to finding out which came out, rather lead us to speculate what came first. Chicken or the egg

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Oct 2011 16:55

We were talking about ease of lighting fire in the tropics, before. Its not so easy to do with naturally available materials - by my real experiences out in the wilds. I read about the comments about its supposedly is just a matter of striking two stones. I am almost positive the writer has never really started a fire himself that way, or has had to do it regularly. My practical field experience suggests that the easiest method is the wood "drill" method using a makeshift bow. But even that needs two different types of dry wood, and dry light kindling, like dry bark, or grass. Anything with even a slight degree of moisture - forget it. Stones, I managed typically onlee after hours. Flint and iron - is quick, but you still need dry kindling.

I have seen in my childhood - in a very hot in summer and overall dry part of India, how people cherish griha-aggi. Not only for ceremonial purposes but also out simple pragmatic considerations. People would come to ask for a "bit of aag", which would be wrapped in special leaves convenient to carry - while the actual "fire" is carried on a kind of charcoal mix which remains smouldering for a long time. Fire would eb preserved and carried in dry paddy husk, or leaf-charcoal mixed with wood resins [the types used to fuel the hookah], rarely in ropes of coconut coir.

Its not a joke to casually dismiss the lighting of fire from natural materials at a time when flint+iron, or matches were not yet discovered.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 01 Oct 2011 18:36

I know who the person quoted by SwamyG and his arguments have been debated by my friend before elsewhere.

For those interested:

1) Soma is not very common in early RV books but becomes common in books 8 & 9.

2) Fear of snow is more likely to be found among people facing it for the first time, Dirghatamas could well be the first vedic to enter himalayan regions for all we know.

3) Fire worship/rituals are found in practically all pagan tribes including African and South American tribes. Otoh we do not find Finno-ugric and other traditional polar dwellers maintaining continuous fire. Afaik neither do the Altaic peoples.

4) My friend has asked this person for evidence regarding any foreign content in RV, his response was the horse. My friend says that is a fallacious argument because even elephant bones are rarely found in ancient cities even though they had an important role to play in cities, temples etc.

5) The famed parkati, bhurja etc are not mentioned in RV, they must be if RV was composed in Central Asia or even Kashmir. Bhurja is only found in post RV literature not even late RV.

6) Finally Indian flora and fauna are found throughout RV. Here is a post regarding that:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Indi ... sage/11884

Also brihaspati is right, it is not easy to light a fire with natural materials at all even in tropics. Sometimes it can take hours and may not even happen, sometimes even wilderness survival experts have to go without a fire in the tropics (those who watch survival shows knows this happens often when they try to light fires with all natural materials). All you get as a result of your hours of efforts is your hands full of blisters (if you want to avoid using your hands directly then you have to make a bow drill).

The most common method used to light a fire I have seen are not stones but through hand drilling or bow drilling.

Here are videos depicting both methods:

[youtube]p6iSzI8vYl4&feature=related[/youtube]

Note that in the bow drill scenario he still uses a knife and a nylon chord which you won't find in a jungle, to make the chord you would have to use tree bark. All this is what this guy quoted by SwamyG seems to think is easy and can just be done by striking two stones together.

From comments on the bow drill video:

He makes that look SO easy. It is very very very hard and he has had years to practice to make it look that smooth. Try doing it for the first time and you'll be there all night cocking about. Ray Mears is incredible and what I like about him the most is his modesty. He is on television because of something he can do very well.......not because he looks good in a dress or sleeps with footballers. The world needs more Rays.

crumpetbutterdrips 2 weeks ago

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 02 Oct 2011 03:19

"This is yet anther myth from Max Muller diligently followed by maculyties who don't understand Sanskrit, no Hindu Mutt says this."

Listen to explanation of "IndroMayabhi Pururup Iyate" Rigveda 6/47/18:

http://yourlisten.com/channel/content/1 ... %20Mayabhi

Spoken by Swami Akhandananda Sarswati Ji

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhandanand

I knew him personally as well. He never went to any Maculytie institution.

"when studying Hindu scriptures one must remember one does not become a Doctor by borrowing a couple of Medical books from a library and reading them in your house and in many cases a language the reader do not understand the language they are written in. You need guidance and Tutorship from a proper guru to study and understand thier meaning."

For example:- if you Vaishnavism and have a Vaishnava guru he will tell you that Indra is post and changes with every Manu and hence there will be 14 Indras in 1 Brahma's day, the present Indra is Purandhara and Bali in patala is slated to be next Indra as promised in Vamana Avatar.

Are you a HK(Hare Krishna)?.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 02 Oct 2011 17:57

SriKumar wrote:Ati Dhanyavaad to all who replied. Couple of comments:
'Indra of Rig Veda is not the Indra of the puranas'- this is an interesting comment and I was thinking along these lines about Vishnu. So what 'properties' (or characteristics) of Vishnu are delineated in the Vedas that make him the same Vishnu of the puranas and epics. This is a really a question to myself

Indeed RV precedes MB and Ramayana (Ravana is purported to have mastered the vedas).

One of the notable RV suktas on Visnu is RV I.22.16-18 which provides inspiration of the puranic vamana avatara which strode earth in three steps (triNi pada vi chakrame). Some of the adjectives in RV suktas that pertain to Visnu later became either names of Puranic Vishnu avataras or inspiration for entire stories. Eg. he is called the gopa (guardian), undeceivable (adabhyah), dharmadhyaksha.

Since you mention Indra, note that sukta 18 calls Visnu as Indrasya yujyah sakha (Griffith translates it to Indra's close-allied friend); but more common meaning is "equal in rank".

There's another connection between Indra and Vishnu: In RV, Indra's chariot horses were called, guess what, Harayah a plural of Hari. I think it literally means shining or golden. Perhaps an inspiration for much beloved and common name for Visnu today.

As regarding not trusting Griffiths' translations, a couple of points:my questions are quite basic and deal only with nouns (in the grammatical sense): Why is the name 'Indra' - whatever/whoever that might stand for in the Vedas, given more primacy than 'Vishnu'

You're right, but I'm not suprised by this. Hinduism is an evolutionary religion after all. This only perplexes some westerners or Mosaic religion people who are confounded by not having a static, eternal theology. Even today, primacy is a question left to the individual or the community - the concept of Ishta Devata.

A notable evolution is the god for sky - it was Dyaus in earlier hymns. Later became Varuna. Then in post RV, Varuna gradually declines in liturgical importance. Why is that ? Does it reflect an evolution in lifestyle of hindus themselves ? I think so. The sky is important in religious beliefs of people who lead a pastoral lifestyle (along with cows, horses and grass). As they settled into agriculture, priorities change.

Having said that, if there is a more reliable English translation of the Vedas (on the web), please do point me to it.

There's a book by O'Flaherty (Penguin publishers). But not all RV is covered. I have a Hindi translation by Pdt. Ramgovind Trivedi.

Rudra, if the Rudra of Rig Veda is our current-day Shiva/Mahadeva.There might be others I am missing and I am not an expert). So how and why did this happen.

Neither am I, but Rudra is characterized as kapardinah (braided hair), bhamita (furious) and shantamadaata (healer - baidyanath). So definitely looks like Lord Shiva of Puranas.

Rig Veda is assumed to be written around 2500 B.C. to about 1000 B.C. If this is true, I find it a bit odd that its content does not allude to anything relating to Krishna or his message, given that RgVeda is the source of a lot (if not all) of our philosophy.

RV is a source of lots, but may not be all. Regarding dating, it's customary to date the oldest texts and then date the following ones (that mention the older texts). Dating can get real controversial

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 02 Oct 2011 19:32

ManishH wrote: Indeed RV precedes MB and Ramayana (Ravana is purported to have mastered the vedas).

Indeed, I recall my 6th class teacher saying this (4 of his 10 heads symbolized his knowledge of the 4 vedas, 6 heads signified his knowledge of 6 shastras). The plot thickens now!

Hinduism is an evolutionary religion after all. This only perplexes some westerners or Mosaic religion people who are confounded by not having a static, eternal theology. Even today, primacy is a question left to the individual or the community - the concept of Ishta Devata.

Good point. Primacy is a concept that would come from a Western religion. My question had indeed come from an English commentary on the Veda. Having said that, I was trying to figure out why some Gods became more 'popular' than others in the Hindu pantheon, and what drives today's Hindus to worship some gods with a lot of fervor (Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Ganesha, Kartikeya, Lakshmi, Kali, Santoshi mata and others) but not so much other gods (of which there are a lot of). The Istha devata compounds the matter significantly because there might be 100's of Ishta devatas and most of us would not know more than a few of them- whether or not we worship them. (Just reliazed I confused Istha devata with Kula devata, but the point is the same- each community can have a kula devata that most of us would not have heard about).

To answer this question 'why are some Gods more popular than others' I was trying to figure why does the average Hindu worship any God. My superficial, and perhaps cynical answer is that we pray to gods for help in this material world (or perhaps reduce the number of incarnations and attain speedy moksha). So, I figured that when people pray to some Gods and their desires come true (coincidence or not, I will not say- it is a huge can of worms), those Gods become more popular. (case in point- Kula devata is a god that offers protection and blessings to the community/family, and so the kula does expect to derive a material benefit from its devata, and nothing wrong with that, I have asked for help too.). Also, if the mythology is more colorful, that might impel more devotion, perhaps.

There's a book by O'Flaherty (Penguin publishers). But not all RV is covered. I have a Hindi translation by Pdt. Ramgovind Trivedi.

Thanks for the pointer. I'll take a look at the book by Flaherty. But in my websearchs I have seen Hindi translators also link Griffith's work, so perhaps it is not all bad.

RV is a source of lots, but may not be all. Regarding dating, it's customary to date the oldest texts and then date the following ones (that mention the older texts). Dating can get real controversial

True. It does get confusing. It will be difficult to date the RV seeing that it started off orally and then was written down. But given what little I know, I am open to the idea that (parts of) the RV might have come before the MH, unless there is a different reason why Upendra trumped over Indra in the Hindu worship landscape and at what point was Upendra equated with Krishna. (Sorry Atriji, maaf keejiye, inspite of your insightful commentary, I am still treating Indra as a traditional God instead of as a symbol for the self.

)

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 02 Oct 2011 19:34

Ishta Devata cannot be 100's. the idea of Ishta Devata is that you choose 1 or 2 and stick with them. Ishta Devata simplifies things, not complicate.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 02 Oct 2011 19:39

devesh wrote:Ishta Devata cannot be 100's. the idea of Ishta Devata is that you choose 1 or 2 and stick with them. Ishta Devata simplifies things, not complicate.

Let me clarify the context a bit. I meant it in the sense that different people can have different Ishta devatas. Your Ishta devata might be different from mine and Ram in Haryana might have a different one. Taken as a whole among all Hindus, the number could be large, while each person has one single devata in his/her mind. But yes, with Ishata devatas, I did not mean literally 100's, that was a rhetorical figure. It might actually be in the 10's if we did a census of Ishta devatas among the Hindu population.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 02 Oct 2011 19:51

brihaspati wrote:We were talking about ease of lighting fire in the tropics, before. Its not so easy to do with naturally available materials - by my real experiences out in the wilds. I read about the comments about its supposedly is just a matter of striking two stones.

B-ji,

In RV, wood was definitely used to create fire. Agni is called vaneja in RV - born of the woods. Agni is also referred to as lying in two mothers (dvimaataa aayuh) - probably referring to a wooden bow and drill apparatus to kindle fire.

The rubbing of woods theory is confirmed by 3.29.6 - manthanti baahubhirvi ... vaajyarusho vaneshva. Agni shines forth like a red steed in the woods when they rub with their hands.

If you have seen Discovery of India episode 3, there was a depiction of yajna which shows fire being kindled with just such a wooden apparatus (around 6min39sec) ...

PS: who said stone ?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Oct 2011 21:24

SriKumar wrote: True. It does get confusing. It will be difficult to date the RV seeing that it started off orally and then was written down. But given what little I know, I am open to the idea that (parts of) the RV might have come before the MH,

I dont understand, whats the confusion? Both MB and Ramayana are clear in their reference to the Veda's. The Veda's do not refer to either.

There is perfect internal consistency in the material.

In addition, RV and other Veda's refer to events which refer to time frames of far older geographical age, both in terms of references to night skies (star charts) and events of geo-graphical significance (melting of ice caps etc)

Clearly RV had already been codified and reached a degree of closure by MB time frame.

Whats the confusion?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 02 Oct 2011 21:38

ManishH ji,
it was ref to a comment from another person [not yet on this forum] as quoted by SwamyG.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 02 Oct 2011 21:57

SriKumar wrote:Having said that, I was trying to figure out why some Gods became more 'popular' than others in the Hindu pantheon, and what drives today's Hindus to worship some gods with a lot of fervor (Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Ganesha, Kartikeya, Lakshmi, Kali, Santoshi mata and others) but not so much other gods (of which there are a lot of).

My opinion (true of all natural religions) ...

Within a geographical area, deities change, as human lifestyle evolves with time - nomadic > pastoralist > agricultural > city-states > nation-states > globalized nation-states. Basically, human life becomes more independent of nature, so does expression of faith and culture.

Within a given temporal span, deities change with geography, flora, fauna. People living in "big sky" regions would have a Sky God. Rivers are revered in areas where they provide sustenance. Reverence of cows was a symbol of gratitude of the society. Horses - a symbol of vigour,speed and extended mobility. All were deified to various degrees and included in Hindu praxis.

A modern day extension of the same reverence is for eg. Ayuddha Puje - practiced in some southern states. Where people do puja of their vehicles or office machinery, weapons too.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 03 Oct 2011 07:20

Sanku wrote: There is perfect internal consistency in the material........Clearly RV had already been codified and reached a degree of closure by MB time frame. Whats the confusion?

Alright man, simple question then: chronologically, when were the Vedas _fully_ compiled? If there is a simple answer for this, please oblige. From what I can find, Rig Veda is placed around 2500 BC or later, though a few sites say it is 10,000 BC and a few others even earlier than that. I dont know Ramayan deeply enough to see how/where the Vedas were referenced, but if things are clearcut that RV came before Ramayan and MH (placed around 5000 BC), please comment on the relative chronology of the 3 works (specifics would be great). Thanks.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 03 Oct 2011 07:27

ManishH wrote: My opinion (true of all natural religions) ...
Within a given temporal span, deities change with geography, flora, fauna. People living in "big sky" regions would have a Sky God. Rivers are revered in areas where they provide sustenance. Reverence of cows was a symbol of gratitude of the society. Horses - a symbol of vigour,speed and extended mobility. All were deified to various degrees and included in Hindu praxis. .....A modern day extension of the same reverence is for eg. Ayuddha Puje - practiced in some southern states. Where people do puja of their vehicles or office machinery, weapons too.

True. Ayudha pooja is like weapons/instruments pooja. Given that we dont pray to Thunder, Sky, Rain, Fire or Wind Gods much these days, having been replaced by Rama, Krishna, Lakshmi, Saraswati, Kali who are more 'sophisticated' gods, I suppose modern day Hinduism does not seem as much a natural religion that Vedic Hinduism was. Just an observation.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 03 Oct 2011 09:08

^^^I agree - Hinduism as practised by a majority of population has moved away from Nature. But the undercurrents will always remain - eg. Agni still has primacy in ritual. The vedic concept of sky god and earth mother lives in modern Hindu marriage rituals - dyauraham prithvi tvam - (I am the sky and you are the earth). Rivers and Cows are always revered. A majority of Hindu pilgrimage sites are on rivers or mountains - faith remains interwoven with Nature.

About absolute dating, my opinion is that it is over-valued (controveries tend to be). But if you want to make up your own opinion, there are these basic criteria:

These factors establish the terminus ante quem:
- Geographical references - RV has a saraswati in full flow - correlate to drying of saraswati river bed.
- Linguisitic - RV sanskrit is older than Panini's sanskrit.
- Astronomical observations in texts.

These factors establish the terminus post quem:
- Correlating RV technology (horse domestication, chariots, spoked wheel, metalsmithy) with archaeological finds.
- Linguistic - RV sanskrit shares animal vocabulary (wild and domesticated) with other indo-european languages, but not so much agricultural vocabulary.

Thankfully, the relative chronology of the three is not controversial

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Oct 2011 09:39

SriKumar, There is a oral compilation then there is written compilation and then the separation by Vyasa.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 03 Oct 2011 11:14

SriKumar wrote:
Sanku wrote: There is perfect internal consistency in the material........Clearly RV had already been codified and reached a degree of closure by MB time frame. Whats the confusion?
Alright man, simple question then: chronologically, when were the Vedas _fully_ compiled? If there is a simple answer for this, please oblige. From what I can find, Rig Veda is placed around 2500 BC or later, though a few sites say it is 10,000 BC and a few others even earlier than that. I dont know Ramayan deeply enough to see how/where the Vedas were referenced, but if things are clearcut that RV came before Ramayan and MH (placed around 5000 BC), please comment on the relative chronology of the 3 works (specifics would be great). Thanks.

We know that the Veda's were formalized around 3000 BCE by Ved Vyasa. After that no new material has been added to the Veda's themselves.

We know that RV is at least as old as 10,000 BCE.

We know that Veda's have grown by "Appending material" the older work was not tampered with and new work added to the tail, hence there are chronological layers with RV at the earliest and other works later.

We do not know many other things though and that is open -- Ramayana dating is unclear, if you follow this and the history thread, you will see that BRFites have made numerous attempts to map different events in Purana's (such as avatars) to different time frame of geological history based on various pointers. (Drying of sea's, flow of Ganga etc) You will find many dating discussion there

One thing however is clear at BRF level of understanding -- the Rig Veda being placed around 2500 is sheer junk date, and that is being charitable.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 03 Oct 2011 20:15

Is there archaeological evidence for domesticated horse, chariots with spoked wheels and metal axes that goes back to 10,000 BC in India ?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 03 Oct 2011 22:15

IMHO,
2 Oct Gandhi jayanti ought to be replaced/ celebrated as Shastr Poojan day .

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 03 Oct 2011 22:43

Some interesting calculations.
http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/a ... artak.html

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 03 Oct 2011 22:54

ManishH wrote:Is there archaeological evidence for domesticated horse, chariots with spoked wheels and metal axes that goes back to 10,000 BC in India ?

There is very little archeological evidence for anything beyond the Swarswati-Sindhu valley as of yet.

Two undersea finds have been tentatively dated at the very early phase at pre 7000 BCE, but considering that they are undersea, very little work has been done on them.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 07 Oct 2011 05:22

Ramayana of Vaalmiki has reference of Vedas and Yagna performing (Vishvamithra performing one as seeking Sri Rama to guard the same) Ravana is said to be one who has sang Sama Veda. The Ramayana said to be first literature after Vedas as per the tradition. So we can put Ramayana near to RV time than Mahabharatha.

Present day Rajput Kings ( Maharana Pratap and even Shivaji Maharaj) do consider themselves as descended from the God ( Suryavamsh) has list of descendants from Sri Rama himself. Similarly we have kings list of Magadha rulers who maintqain th elist of kings.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 09 Oct 2011 13:56

ManishH wrote: One thing that could explain it is a quid-pro-quo trade of horses southwards and craftsmen northwards. It's hard to imagine chariots with such robust construction as to be usable after long distance transport (unless you implied the sea route ?). Easier to imagine a craftsman exchange.

Not suggesting that chariots were entirely imported, perhaps there existed some kind of trade deficit or different classes of chariots were being made, such as ones for endurance sports vs heavy duty battle versions. The sea route for import of chariot parts (which could be assembled after unloading) is a likely possibility too.

IMO, India had the need to protect intellectual and "patented" developments at that time, the zinc distillation process was one closely guarded secret and I seriously doubt that craftsman exchange would have taken place due to problems with infringements (foreign craftsmen being spies) and issuing security clearances to Indic craftsmen going abroad.

Very interesting comment on brass. Could you please pass me any references to ancient zinc mines ? I know of tin and copper but hadn't heard of zinc mining during antiquity in Greater Indic regions.

What are the brass fabrication constraints ? I thought RV chariot is mostly wood (takshaka, the word for carpenter, is frequently used for chariot maker and is derived from verb root taksha - to carve). Metal is probably needed at the hub ? Use of metal on rim and spokes is a later development.

1.

By the second half of the second millennium b.c., the chariot was being used by the Persian Empire as merely a "shock" device to throw the enemy into confusion, through the use of spinning brass scythes attached to the axle.

2.There is a paper on the Structure of the Shang chariot, dated to the early Chinese Bronze age (~2300 BC). Though the chariot was used for ritual practices, its surfaces were adorned with polished brass.

3.

Dhokra ware of central and eastern India, for which the lost wax process was used to craft bells and other brass items.

Archaeologists have excavated icons and idols proving that for the last 4,000 years, panchaloha (literally meaning an alloy of five metals) has been most widely used for making icons and idols. This five-metal combination of Cu, Au, Ag, Pb, and Zn was considered to be a highly auspicious composition and is still used for icons cast for worship. The important sources of information on making panchaloha are recorded in ancient Sanskrit and regional literature, with artisans from South India perfecting the technology. Other compositions of panchaloha cited include Au, Cu, Ag, Pb, Fe, and Sn as well as the combination of Sn, Cu, Fe, Pb, and brass. However, because of their high cost, gold and silver are no longer used in general-purpose icons. An alloy made by mixing copper, brass, and lead in the ratio 29:2:1 is commonly utilized for general-purpose icons. In some cases, tin is added in an amount equal to the lead content. Lead is added to make the alloy more malleable so that chiseling and engraving of the icon will be easy. The artisans believe that if the icon is made with copper alone, it will not have a lasting shine, whereas adding a little brass to copper results in a lasting shine and a lower melting point. It may be noted that brass is added as a master alloy to introduce zinc.

Reference: N. Gopalakrishnan, Ancient Indian Knowledge in Metals and Alloys Heritage Publications, Series 38 (Thiruvananthapuram, India: Indian Institute of Scientific Heritage, 2001), pp. 20–21.

4.

Though often referred to as 'Bronzes' these statues seldom use the alloy of Copper and Tin that makes up Bronze because Tin was not said to be pure enough for statues of the Gods and Goddesses. Usually, pure Copper or Brass (an alloy of Copper and Zinc) was used for Metal Casting. Later, the mix of the Alloy changed to 20 parts of Copper, to one of Brass and one of white Lead.

Indian "Metallurgists" had perfected the complex process of extracting Zinc from its ores by the Downward Distillation method that required exceptional care in the type of furnance, retorts and a reducing atmosphere as well as temperature management

Agaria the ancient Brahui tribe of India are the inventers of smelting process. They construct the smelters, collect and process the ore, fuel and other raw materials, produce the metal and make axes, sickles, plowshares etc.

They worship Gonda deity Bura Deo , and their ancestral God is Dulha Deo. With equal devotion they worship Agyasura, Ayasura and Lohasura.

Regarding fabrication constraints, it primarily revolved around difficulty of finishing and aesthetics, due to the higher hardness ratios relative to bronze. An alloy phase diagram should be able to point out the advantage that bronze had in this field. For ritualistic purposes, palanquins and chariots had to be adorned with "gold-like" metal with the finished shine of gold, IMO brass would have been an ideal candidate but the craftsmen would have had their fair deal of struggle with innovating finishing process (primarily due to unavailability of suitable abrasives, risk of scratching etc).

You are probably right with the later development of rim and spokes on chariots, however the Persians did have brass weapons circa 2500 BC.

PS: Apologies for delay.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Oct 2011 18:43

A couple of pictures on how the world land-mass appeared ~18,000 year ago in previous ice-age.

Look at the Saraswati-Indus civilization area. If these maps are correct the older Saraswati-Indus civilization must be at least few hundred KM in to South-west. That makes the current Indus-civilization regions as north-eastern tips of that civilization. If that area currently supports 100+ million souls, imagine the human mass that could have lived in the old times. Also note the climatic conditions of that area. They are as good as current GY-delta.

This can explain the extent of Historical Aryavratta. That is why we see all these regions mentioned in our texts as part of Jambudwipa.

Probably by ~3000-4000BC the sea levels started to raise and Sri Lanka started get separated from rest of Bharat land-mass, making Ravana grow independent. Please note that by the time Lanka Puri was constructed it is already becoming an island. Probably he controlled the land bridge between Bharat main-land and Lanka (he carried Sita on a chariot to Lanka).

From Ancient Indian's blog -

When I looked at this close up image of the Rama Sethu, that connects India and Sr Lanka, I noticed that it had a series of tiny hoppable islets.

I found that in the Valmiki Ramayanam, Hanuman did for a fact make a few stops on the way. It was not one continuous leap. eg Mainaka, Simhika etc.

Then in I have seen animations on the site historicalrama.org, which showed how the setu could have been built.. filling in the gaps. This story explains that very well : Hara Hara Mahadeva : The Ramayana War through the eyes of a small Vanara. (For other information that I have collected on Rama Setu, please see : Rama Sethu – A Vanara Achievement).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Oct 2011 10:36

some thoughts on the dasavataras of Vishnu
- Each avatara starts with an appeal by Indra* who is a deva with human foibles and lapses. Invariably he loses or is about to lose his position
- Here is the hard part. Vishnu in his avatara roop finds a loophole in the ironclad varas or boons recieved by the ill doers or the rakshasas. I think here is the greatest idea, that one should not be misled by literal interpretation of the boon or vara and be led to wrong paths. This is what separates us from Abrahamic religions. They are literal and could end up doing the wrong thing while following the strict literal interpretation of the book. Eg. Bhisma was a literalist and ended up on the wrong side.
- Three avataras are taken up in dealing with one family: Varaha to deal with Hiranyaksha, Narasimha to deal with Hiranyakashyapu and Vamana to deal with Bali. However this ended the Daitya phase.
- The smartest guy was the one who declared Buddha as an avatara for he was able to bring in reforms into Hinduism that removed the sharp edges and finally made the transition from Vedic sacrifice based religion to Sanathan Dharma. The smarter ones before him, were the ones who made sure that all the gods had consorts ie goddesses and even children.

* Indra is like Zeus, Jupiter or Odin

Vishnu is way above them.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 26 Oct 2011 18:45

ramana wrote:The smartest guy was the one who declared Buddha as an avatara for he was able to bring in reforms into Hinduism that removed the sharp edges and finally made the transition from Vedic sacrifice based religion to Sanathan Dharma.

Actually this was other way round. about 1200 years before Vaishnava people started calling Buddha as Vishnu's incarnation, in 400BC, Buddhists had already made a pass at Sri Rama calling him avatara of Bodhisatva in Jataka tales, story number 461. Vaishnavas simply paid them back in their coin that too a millennia later. Shows how clueless aastikaas were for long time.

http://ia700506.us.archive.org/2/items/ ... usuoft.pdf

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Oct 2011 19:03

I am not dividing between the Vaishanava time period. Whenever the earliest acknowledgement occured.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Oct 2011 07:46

Shiva and the game of dice:

Game of Dice and Annapoorna

March 23, 2011
Game of Dice and Annapoorna

The legend of Shiva and Parvati’s Game of Dice, explains the creation of the phenomenal world in that before they begin to play, they are the androgyne, Ardhanarisvara and locked in union; with no distinction between consciousness and its contents, and no world.

There are many subtleties and esoteric meanings connected with the mythology and legends of Arunachala. One of the most famous being that of Ardhanarishvara - a form of the divine which is particularly celebrated at Arunachala and not more so than during the festival of Deepam and on the day of Bharani Deepam. To read more go this link here:

The game of dice between Shiva and Parvati symbolises the beginning of manifestation.When Parvati takes the dice and begins to play, she separates herself from Shiva so that they become two different players thus initiating fragmentation and the creation of the phenomenal world. Shiva represents consciousness, and Parvati represents prakriti.

At first Shiva beats Parvati, but then more is wagered and Shiva loses all his attributes to Her. After losing the game, and seemingly losing his powers, Shiva accepts the defeat with a shrug of his shoulders and withdraws into the forest to meditate. Symbolising that consciousness can detach itself from its experience and from its own contents, and withdraw into a peaceful state.

In the forest Shiva meets Vishnu who offers to help. Afterwards Shiva wins back all he previously lost and causes Parvarti to accuse him of cheating. Vishnu reveals to Parvarti the secret of Shiva’s victories. “My spirit entered the dice. The dice moved not according to your moves but according to my wish. So neither has Shiva really won nor have you really lost. The game was an illusion; your quarrel a product of delusion.”

Shiva tells Parvati that the world is an illusion, nature is an illusion, matter is a mirage, and even food is just maya. Parvati, mother of all material things including food, loses her temper, saying; "If I am just an illusion, let's see how you and the rest of the world get along without me," and disappears from the world. Her disappearance causes havoc in the cosmos. Time stands still and in the grip of a terrible drought, the earth becomes barren. Seeing such suffering, Parvati's heart melts and she appears at Kashi to give relief.

Hearing of her return, Shiva presents himself to Parvati with other hungry mendicants. The Goddess feeds him, and Shiva admits that food cannot be dismissed as mere illusion as it is required to nourish the body in which resides the Atma.

Since that time, Parvati is worshipped as Annapoorna Devi, the Goddess of food and sustainer of prosperity. Legend has it that Shiva made an agreement with Goddess Annapoorna that she look after life before death, ensuring that no one goes hungry in the sacred city of Kashi, while he will ensure they receive liberation.

In 2011, the date of Annapoorna Puja is April 11 and is mainly performed by women. For more details of Annapoorna Puja observances go to this link here:

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 27 Oct 2011 08:01

^^^ This is shown brilliantly in a yesteryear's Tamil movie starring Sivaji Ganesan and Savitri. Comes immediately after the Daksha story.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Oct 2011 08:43

Vempati Satyamgaru's son Ravi played the role in a Kuchipudi ballet "Ardhanareshwara"

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 27 Oct 2011 12:43

It was Adi Sankaracharya who first called Buddha as an incarnation of Vishnu. It was part of his plan to destroy Buddhism, not support it.

Whoever is declared as the incarnation of Vishnu becomes constrained at a spiritual level, and his energies are channelised to wish fulfillment. He no longer remains a spiritual revolutionary.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Nov 2011 01:47

Pages in Telugu

Main site: http://www.telugubhakti.com/telugupages/main.htm

Mahabharat:

Left hand side in English and RHS in Telugu

http://www.telugubhakti.com/telugupages/main.htm

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 04 Nov 2011 02:25

Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism arose from almost a common source - the Indian sub-continental culture which had taken hold prior to Mahavira and Gautama's times. It was an amalgamation of thousands of years of growth of religion and philosophy. Compared to Jainism, Hinduism and Buddhism showed more vigor in challenging each other and earning converts into the organized fold. They influenced each other.

Indian literature has the tendency to give some room to differing view points (Purva Paksha sort of). What is the earliest Hindu scripture/literature that mentions Buddhists thoughts?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Nov 2011 04:16

I was reading the Shantiparva of the Mahabharat in the above liked site.

I just realised why Bhishma declared a non-use of divayastras in the Mahabharata War. By doing so he ensured that the paradigm of "more begets more" is not followed. For using such astras more is not better as it leads to worse destruction.

After his removal, the only two uses were by Karna (use of Shakti against Arjuna) and by Ashwatthama(use of Brahmastra against the Pandavas) who thought they were just another weapon and not divya astras!

The Pakis getting nukes is like such useless warriors getting divya astras.

PRC and US were irresponsible.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 04 Nov 2011 07:41

abhischekcc wrote:It was Adi Sankaracharya who first called Buddha as an incarnation of Vishnu. It was part of his plan to destroy Buddhism, not support it.

Whoever is declared as the incarnation of Vishnu becomes constrained at a spiritual level, and his energies are channelised to wish fulfillment. He no longer remains a spiritual revolutionary.

What you have said has no factual basis.In scholastic circles,the Mimamsakas had severely dented the prestige of Buddhists and Sankara's primary debate was with purva mimasakas.More fundamentally,Buddhism was a protest movement within Hinduism which lost its purpose once the mother community responded positively to its legitimate criticism.

The 'Ahimsa' ideal(which is ofcourse not blanket pacifism) is as old as Vedas and so is respect for cows.