Indian Army: News & Discussion

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Oct 2011 13:34

Sirji, CSD is a concept. A way of doing things. I know ParGha would frown at me for using this name time and again but for lack of better word to convey the meaning, I'll stick to it for present.

Now, when it comes to howitzers and ammunition, please understand that IA is not w/o required number of howitzers. It might have limited number of 155/39 caliber weapons but to say that the entire warfighting is going to get stuck because we don't have uber howitzers is bunkum. Sure, I'll have to fire from 25kms and not 30kms but does that make my artillery shell or gun any less dangerous? Another thing - what is the state of PA Artillery? Apart from M109 SP Arty, they have a pot pourri of weapon systems. And we have numbers - Indian artillery brigades have more regiments as compared to their counterparts in PA.

The usual arguments one hears is that WLR will ensure that shoot-and-scoot is a must. Now, please tell me, how many WLR does PA have? And which formations have these been alloted to? What about applying the same argument to PA artillery? We also have WLR plus a robust UAV capability+satellite recon+EW assets...the induction of ACCCS will only enhance the effectiveness of the artillery as a fighting arm. So, yes, we do need newer systems; their importance cannot be stressed enough. But to think that all is lost because we don't have 155/52 caliber weapons, is nothing but whining. For a long time now, IA had moved from 105mm to 130mm caliber for formations in the plain. So, it is not that IA is sitting idle in absence of induction of 155/52 caliber weapons.

If anything, we need more mechanization - more tanks and AFV for the IBG to ensure that we have strong offensive and counter-offensive capabilities. And if we are truly aiming at 'theaterization' as per news posted above, then the IBGs will take the required shape and carry the required punch.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Oct 2011 14:11

India to deploy T-72 tanks on border

Defence preparedness will now be enhanced on the Himalayan heights along the operating boundaries with China and Pakistan following reports of repeated incursions of troops and the military cooperation between the two countries. As part of this, T-72 battle tanks, designed by the erstwhile Soviet Union, will be deployed on the borders.

"There are plans to do so," a highly-placed source in the army told Hindustan Times. He said this was on the lines of the army's efforts spelled out by the Centre to enhance infrastructure in the area. Sources also said this was "part of the operational preparedness" along the borders, especially the line of actual control (with China). This was one of the major points of discussion during the visit of Northern Command chief lieutenant general KT Parnaik to Ladakh about seven days ago.

During his visit, he "reviewed" the situation along the line of actual control. He stressed the measures being undertaken to maintain vigilance and the sanctity of the boundary.

The briefing by the commander of 14 corps, lieutenant general Ravi Dastane, also focused on the need to have a more aggressive posturing along the borders to have a physical and psychological advantage over the other sides.

Army chief general VK Singh had said on October 5 there were "around 4,000 Chinese including People's Liberation Army men in Pakistan occupied Kashmir." The army has put up signboards en route to the LAC to bolster the morale of the troops and the locals.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 11 Oct 2011 14:54

ASPuar, I have seen a corps commander using an official Mitsubishi Pajero as his staff car. Complete with army registration. So there seems to be no standard as such or there are standards and there are exceptions.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Oct 2011 15:24

Rohit,

Would it be fair to say, that the IA is learning to implement CS. Or even taking it to the next level. All the while shouting to the ROW that CS does not exist for the IA.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Oct 2011 17:37

^^^As I said earlier, CSD is just the name we (or I) use for convenience. And it not only about setting up those IBGs. It is a far-2 bigger concept. And, ever since IA came out with this doctrine, it has relentlessly pursued the objective of fine tuning it. They are not waiting for IBGs to be set up in classic sense (as in new raisings for Pivot Corps) before sorting out 'N' number of other other very pertinent issues.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 11 Oct 2011 17:48

merlin wrote:ASPuar, I have seen a corps commander using an official Mitsubishi Pajero as his staff car. Complete with army registration. So there seems to be no standard as such or there are standards and there are exceptions.

No no, on the contrary, there certainly are standards, as per the Army Service Corps.

Till now Ambys were the staff car. Now it will be SX4, as per all central govt depts.

Pajeros are authorised in certain hilly and border areas. Jongas and Gypsys can also be used for offroad work.

If an officer is using his own car, thats a different matter, and there he can use whatever he wants.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 11 Oct 2011 19:09

Oh OK. I did not know that Pajeros were authorized for hilly/border areas - that explains it.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 11 Oct 2011 21:04

ASPuar wrote:
merlin wrote:ASPuar, I have seen a corps commander using an official Mitsubishi Pajero as his staff car. Complete with army registration. So there seems to be no standard as such or there are standards and there are exceptions.
No no, on the contrary, there certainly are standards, as per the Army Service Corps.

Till now Ambys were the staff car. Now it will be SX4, as per all central govt depts.

Pajeros are authorised in certain hilly and border areas. Jongas and Gypsys can also be used for offroad work.

If an officer is using his own car, thats a different matter, and there he can use whatever he wants.

If I may,

All vehicles included in DG&SD rate contracts can be purchased as Staff cars. Specific models depend on the requirements and choice of officers likely to be using at the time of making purchase(if he is in a position to do that). Also entitlement of AC and Non AC cars withing certain price range depends on the Rank of the Officers.

ASC may have additional requirement for which extra price has to be paid over and above DG&SD price.

Amby is very much in the list. SX4 Dezire have been added to the list in 2009. Tata motors have their Indigo offerings. Similarly Ford (Ikon and Fiesta) and Hyundai (Accent) have their cars. Always behind current offerings.

Under special circumstances MERC also could be purchased , such as for use of President of India Gov of States.

Other cars , not in the Govt list could be purchased by getting relaxation.

Many Cars are purchased for meeting Security aspects , such as Higher engine power than available in normal offerings, extra large tanks , armour platings , bulletproof glass/body/tyres. Some cars get fitted with Wireless kit ( esp police,army..)
Models are not listed in DG&SD and are to be procured specifically ordering that requirement.

Amby is cheapest of the lot and has old world charm and may be nostalgia for officers when Collectors used to drive in the only car available in the District. Standard/Fiat/Premier was for wealthy private individuals.

Now a days it is pretty outdated and ...

Pajero as such is not authorised but for special requirements (in bold words) it could be purchased but then only Lt Gen or above could go for it that too 4X4 esp Corp Comd. Doubtful about others.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 Oct 2011 21:09

I am not happy with officers running around in cars which flash their stars and flags.

Its an invitation to......

worse I saw this in insurgency areas - which was doubly stupid.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 11 Oct 2011 21:19

Surya wrote:I am not happy with officers running around in cars which flash their stars and flags.

Its an invitation to......

worse I saw this in insurgency areas - which was doubly stupid.

That's protocol.When Such cars move, whole security envelope is moving through Wireless.

Its like this. If SSP of the area ( sensitive such as Naxal affected) is on Movement then other vehicles pass through and follow through their respective designated zones and hand over to next zone. This protocol is much more sophisticated as officer moves up in higher positions. Most of the time it is necessity though does not seem so obvious. Flasher is not mandatory though entitled. Sometimes Pilot escorts are used. If anyone try to pass the Caravan he might be in for a surprise when Pilot is used.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Oct 2011 21:22

Army to test re-structuring plan in war game

New Delhi A Grand Strike Corps exercise that will take place in Rajasthan next month will be the test bed for a new doctrine of “theaterisation” that is likely to transform the structure and deployment tactics of the Indian Army.

The “Sudarshan Shakti” exercise, which is being led by 21 Corps but will include elements of the Air Force and Navy, will be the test bed for the new doctrine that was drawn up as part of the Army’s “Transformational Study” led by a group of top Generals and the concept will be implemented on the basis of the results.

The Armed Forces have for long talked about moving from a threat specific approach to a capability based approach, but this is the first time the concept is being tested in a full scale war game involving thousands of troops and all three armed services.

Under the new concept, the entire combat resources and support elements that are engaged at war in a particular theatre or front will be utilised optimally from a command centre that will use the latest technologies to get a complete picture of the battle. The battlefront will be managed seamlessly through the command centre or centres without the administrative “borders” of various commands slowing things down.

Once the efficacy of the doctrine has been established in the exercise, the theory would be implemented, paving the way for a radical re-structuring of the command system as well as the Army Headquarters. The upcoming exercise and its significance was also discussed at the Army Commanders Conference in the capital on Monday with Army Chief General V K Singh, who headed the transformational study, saying that significant steps for “force structuring” have been initiated.

“Once the efficacy is ascertained, it would be implemented. Processes are also on for re-structuring of Army Headquarters, so that it becomes a more responsive and synergised organisation,” said a senior Army officer. As part of the same policy, the Army is augmenting its aviation wing and is looking to acquire a large amount of helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles to support ground troops.

The “Sudarshan Shakti” exercise will also use and validate new-age technologies like advance surveillance systems, space assets and network centric capabilities of the Armed Forces. The central command room will have complete situational awareness of the battlefront and will coordinate operations with the Indian Air Force and the Navy. The concept is being tested out by the Pune-based Southern Command.

Among other discussions at the Commanders Conference, the Army Chief said that a new “training audit” will be put into place shortly to standardise training measures across establishments. Top commanders of the Army also emphasised on the need for creating night-landing capabilities at air fields in both the northern and western borders that would go a long way in improving the operational logistic build-up. This would also cut costs as the load carrying capabilities of transport aircraft increase at night due to low temperatures.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 Oct 2011 21:25

chaanakya

you can do all that and still have your car relatively unmarked. one needs to think ahead.

frankly outside in the civvy world who cares or knows what the stars and flags mean.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 11 Oct 2011 22:02

Chaanakya, very detailed and excellent post.

Does the DGS&D list does apply to armed forces? Im not sure that it does. I think perhaps DGST (Director General Supplies and Transport) of the Indian Army handles military vehs, though DGS&D list is a guideline.

Pajero has been authorised as a one off measure, for Indo Tibet border for general use for troops, and not just for Jarnail Sahebs.

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/suryagangad ... ikkim.html

http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/auto-news ... kim-49519/

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 11 Oct 2011 22:09

Surya wrote:chaanakya

you can do all that and still have your car relatively unmarked. one needs to think ahead.

frankly outside in the civvy world who cares or knows what the stars and flags mean.

Ive seen this too. But, there are two things at work here:

1. In the culture of the armed forces, for the boss man to be hiding behind a veil of anonymity to avoid prospective strikes on himself is not done. A message has to be sent, that they are not afraid of anyone, and are totally confident of the security and peace in the area.

2. There is, as Chaanakya has pointed out, a huge curtain of security when a person of the stature of div or corps commander moves in an insurgency hit area. Road opening parties, RF jammers, sniffer dogs, and truckloads of troops posted all over. So, the officer really is safe, and he wants everyone to know it.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 11 Oct 2011 23:10

ASPuar ji

There are two things
Staff cars , generally , from DG&SD only with few exceptions. There are designated DDO (Direct Demand Officer) who can place the indent.

Technical requirement of other types of vehicles. ASC has its own qualification list for types and rates as well. Pajero is certainly not authorised for ordinary use, must be for very specific requirement and Army would have asked for it. ASC is competent to do that.

Routes for normal working place is provided common security so you won't see additional paraphernalia, like going to North or South Block or Sena Bhawan or Passing through Wellington Road or Naval Police/ MP HQ.

Surya these people are engaged in important tasks, whether we give credence to it or not, and Civilians are , by and large, living in peace that is because of huge efforts they put in.

You saw that Amby stuck in the traffic, because he was going from Tilak Marg area to his office in normal way and not at all using his privileges, which could have been done with Siren blaring. Those roundabouts are posted with MPs for Movement of all officers above Brig ( by blocking traffic). They facilitate movements. See them early morning and late evening there. They coord with DP.

Incidentally Red lights are not authorised on all cars. In fact all Collectors can use only Amber Light. Secy also Amber lights. Brig also.
Red lights ( static)are for Chief Secy, DGP/IGP Secy to GOI and above (in the protocol)
Red Light with flasher is only for Head of States, CM Cabinet Ministers etc. All others are show off. Army and Police on emergency duty can use Red light flasher Members of Parl can't use any lights. Ambulance and Transport Dept can use Blue color. Ambulance with Siren. Fire Brigade with Red Light and siren or Bell.

Surya, all others are humbug. TN High Court had taken cognizance of rampant misuse of Redlights ( even criminals use it) and asked Govt to come out with guidelines. For sometime there was serious checking. Of late it is waning.

We have learnt after three things
IG, RG and Gen Vaidya (Retd) and you don't want to give them (pigs) scoring points.After LBS food etc are tested by Biotechnologist deputed.

One incident I will tell,it came in paper. An Army Major with Red beacon on his gypsy overtook High Court Justice's Car ( Assam) and the poor Major was hauled up for contempt of Court and had to apologise.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 11 Oct 2011 23:31

Pajero is authorised for regular use in the circumstances I have described above, and as I said, obviously it was a one off procurement for this purpose for Indo Tibet border areas, as explained in the articles I posted.

Red light with flasher is authorised to different persons. It depends.

In central protocol, everyone from President to Chief of Army Staff can use red light w/flasher, and do.

In state protocol, in Delhi, for instance, Chief Secy, GoC Delhi area, etc can use a static light without flasher. CM etc get flasher. In practice though, all use the flasher also.

If the contempt of court incident was true as stated, I can assure you it was a gross misuse of contempt power, and would not have stood up to further judicial scrutiny, had it been applied. Markandey Katju, J, had amply explained what misuse of contempt power was, and it was a very wide definition. Someone who overtakes your car is not contempt of court, and I am sure the judge knows this. Possibly there was some other situation, like maybe the judges car was blocked from proceeding or some disagreement or something.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Oct 2011 00:12

Austin<,good report. Appears stuff studied in last decade is getting implemented.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2011 00:19

^^^ramana saar, some of the stuff being implemented is what one used to associate with western armies. Apart from C3I stuff mentioned above, the other major thrust area is the sensor-to-shooter loop being shortened drastically. As I said earlier, the CSD is just one part of the overall game. IA has planned really big. Lot of things on logistic side have been sorted out big time.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2011 00:21

ramana wrote:Austin<,good report. Appears stuff studied in last decade is getting implemented.

Can I have your e-mail id, please? Thanx.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2011 00:45

Surya, Rahul M - you have mail.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Oct 2011 01:03

so have you.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Oct 2011 09:15

Has the turf war between IA/AIF over the AAC become so much that the PM has to step in and publicly call out the parties?

PM asks Army, IAF to iron out differences

In what looks like a veiled reprimand to the Army, which is keen on building its own aviation wing rather than depending on the Indian Air Force, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Tuesday asked the armed forces to ''optimise the use of scarce resources''through ''long-term planning and creation of common institutions.''

“The government will never fight shy of finding the funds for the modernisation of our forces. At the same time we have to recognise that resources are not unlimited. I would urge upon you to optimise the use of scarce resources, particularly when we build new capacities for meeting emerging threats,” Singh said addressing the combined commander conference here.

The prime minister’s comments come in the backdrop of an ongoing tussle between the IAF and Army on the creation of the Army Aviation Wing. The two services are not leaving any stone unturned to protect their own turf.

As the Army is keen to have its own helicopter unit comprising new attack helicopters, IAF Chief NAK Browne in the last week stated that a 1986 document — Joint Army and Air Force Instructions — clearly demarcated the role and responsibility of the two services.

“As per the JAAI-1986, the IAF will operate and maintain all helicopters including the light utility and attack helicopters of the Army. But the command and control will be with the Army. In the same manner, the 22 new attack helicopters will also be under the command of the Army but they will be maintained by the IAF,” Brown said.

The prime minister has left to the two sparring services to iron out the differences.
“You are the best judges of how this can be done, but advance and long-term planning and creation of common institutions, communication networks and infrastructure are some examples of how this could be achieved,” he said.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 12 Oct 2011 09:22

This is stupid. Every army in the world has an air wing. So should the Indian army. The air force should build strategic air assets, instead of wasting time and money on light recon and transport helicopters.

Whats even stupider is the PM's typical dud reaction. Instead of taking a decision like a PM is supposed to, he has said "sort it out amongst yourselves". What is this nonsense? Is this how government is run?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2011 10:26

How is the IA supposed to have air-assualt brigade or even organic vertical lift assets with-in the proposed mountain strike corps without AAC getting hold of Mi-17 and Chinook level of assets?

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Oct 2011 10:42

sum wrote:...

PM asks Army, IAF to iron out differences

...

The prime minister has left to the two sparring services to iron out the differences.
“You are the best judges of how this can be done, but advance and long-term planning and creation of common institutions, communication networks and infrastructure are some examples of how this could be achieved,” he said.

If we look at the UK Armed Forces (with shrinking budgets), we see them creating "Common Institutions", such as the Joint Helicopter Command (JHC), shared by RAF, RN and RA's AAC.

Joint Helicopter Command (JHC)

Delivering Joint Success on Operations

The Joint Helicopter Command was formed in 1999 to bring together under one command the Battlefield Helicopters and Air Assault Force Elements of the Royal Navy, Army and Royal Air Force. The JHC operates 239 Forward Fleet aircraft including the Sea King and Lynx helicopters of the Royal Navy's Commando Helicopter Force; the Chinook, Puma and Merlin helicopters of the Royal Air Force and the Apache, Lynx, Gazelle and Bell 212 helicopters and the Islander fixed wing aircraft of the Army Air Corps.
...
The principal Army formation under command is 16 Air Assault Brigade, the newest and largest brigade in the British Army. Formed in 1999 and based in Colchester, the brigade has already served in Macedonia, Iraq and Afghanistan. 16 Brigade is the Army’s primary rapid reaction formation, equipped and manned so that it can be used throughout the spectrum of conflict from humanitarian tasks, such as disaster relief at one extreme, through to high intensity war-fighting at the other.

The Commando Helicopter Force based at the Royal Naval Air Station Yeovilton is equipped with Lynx and Sea King helicopters. The Commando Helicopter Force is primarily a maritime force that is trained, equipped and organised for expeditionary joint operations.

The JHC includes all front-line elements of the Army Air Corps. 1 and 5 Regiments AAC are based at Turnhill and Canterbury respectively. 3, 4 and 9 Regiments AAC are part of 16 Air Assault Brigade. 6 and 7 Regiments AAC are TA regiments; 7 Regiment AAC (V) operate the Bell 212 out of Brunei and the newly created 6 Regiment AAC (V) is based at Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk. In addition to the regiments, the Army Air Corps have a number of independent flights under the command of JHC; these are based in Canada, Belize and Brunei.

The RAF Support Helicopter Force operates under the command of JHC and includes the Chinook, based at RAF Odiham (Hampshire) and the Puma and Merlin Squadrons based at the RAF Benson (Oxfordshire). Tactical communications support for the Support Helicopter Force is provided by 21 (Air Support) Signal Regiment based at Colerne, near Bath. The provision of aviation fuel to deployed battlefield helicopters is the responsibility of the RAF Tactical Supply Wing based at RAF Stafford.
...

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 12 Oct 2011 10:57

The UK model of defence administration has been heavily criticised by the UK armed forces itself, and is hardly an example to follow. Especially considering that the UK armed forces have been reduced to only a planned expeditionary role, and are in no way subject to similar threat perceptions, strategic environment, or even terrain realities as us. Additionally, they have the luxury of multiple alliance partners to bail them out and provide strategic capability, which we totally dont.

Furthermore, the issue of scarcity of resources is nonsense. India has never been as flush with funds as it is today. Now is the time to build a strong, powerful military. Even the NREGA program costs 15000 crores a year.

The point is not economic growth or military power. This is a false tradeoff, created by vested interests. We have to understand that both go hand in hand.

This government is incapable of taking any decisions which dont involve political survival or graft.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Oct 2011 11:13

More details on the "theater-isation" concept of IA:

Coming soon: An 'agile, lethal, versatile' Indian Army

The Indian Army will move from a "command-based" deployment to a "theatre command" format where the "front" or the spearhead will be seamlessly integrated with resources in the "depth" or the rear, says RS Chauhan

The exact contours of the long-awaited transformation of the Indian Army will be finalised at the end of October after Exercise Sudarshan Shakti, a massive desert operation to be conducted by 21 Corps, one of the three strike formation India possesses, concludes.

Conceptualised in 2010 after a two-year study by a group of top generals under the current army chief, Gen VK Singh , when he was the Eastern Army commander, the transformation envisages seamless integration of available forces without the constraints of limiting the resources in water-tight compartments of "commands". So far, each command and formation operated well within its prescribed boundaries and deployed the combat as well as support services only within its own jurisdiction.

The transformation, however, seeks to break down these artificial boundaries to minimise losses and increase optimal utilisation of resources. So in the years to come, the Indian Army will move from a "command-based" deployment to a "theatre command" format where the "front" or the spearhead will be seamlessly integrated with resources in the "depth" or the rear.

In other words, when fighting formations get busy in taking on the enemy, the support elements dealing with food supplies, ammunition, spares etc -- usually based towards the rear -- will have total synergy with the frontline troops, thereby increasing their effectiveness.

The basic idea is to turn the lumbering Army into "an agile, lethal, versatile and networked force, which is capability-based to meet future challenges". Gen VK Singh has said the transformation must be 360 degrees and "enhance operational capability through reorganisation, restructuring, force development and relocation".

The concept is based on 13 transformation studies. These range from ways to consolidate strike capabilities and "flatten" HQs, to "synergising" all resources. Some of the Army's new transformative concepts are already being "test-bedded".

The chief in fact told the Army commanders in the ongoing commanders' conference in New Delhi [ Images ] which began on Monday that proposals for "theatrisation" of combat and combat services support have been completed and they would be test-bedded during the forthcoming Southern Command Exercise with troops. Once the efficacy is ascertained, it would be implemented. Processes are also on for re-structuring of the Army headquarters, so that it becomes a more responsive and synergised organisation.

All these steps undertaken would ensure that our Army is more agile, responsive and effective, the Army chief said.

The five-day conference is focusing on various macro-level issues pertaining to operational preparedness, equipment sustainment for mission readiness and maximising combat power generation capability of the Army, enhancing professional military education for scholar warriors, logistics and other administrative aspects. Procedures to ensure efficient 'budgetary management', 'improvement of habitat in high altitude areas' and 'night landing capability for airfields in the northern and western theatres' was deliberated on the first day of the conference. It was brought out that due to low temperatures at night, the carrying capacity of the IL-76 would increase, thus helping in winter stocking as also for operational logistic build-up.

Lots of stuff happening with the IA, as Rohit-ji and others were mentioning.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Oct 2011 11:24

the ongoing airfield modernization pgm with latest navigational aids should enable this night landing thing.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Oct 2011 13:46

aspuar - i think the "joint operations model" can be emulated where it suits - integration of tri-services and C4 in battlespace management. over time, the UK and US forces jointness (with some integration of other core NATO allies) has become quite slick (but not foolproof)
the uk's problems stem from lack of funding for defence (in the national budget) and high 'labour costs' which force them to make all manner of cuts and savings - which sometimes force models which we don't need to emulate

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Oct 2011 14:17

IAF wants to do strategic things right? Like not doing CAS, doing interdiction, etc.? So why not move the choppers over to IA? At least everything that is used for CAS - attack helos, AOPs (already with IA I think), gunships, light and medium utility helos, etc.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Oct 2011 14:18

the joint helo command of UK does not make sense for us. overall I find the US model much more logical, army operates all helos it needs and the air force operates only those related to CSAR, spec-ops and utility.
a reasonable compromise in our case would be to allot medium lift helos on semi-permanent basis to relevant brigades and divisions with complete control in army hands.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 12 Oct 2011 14:35

The point to note here is that the UK army is still operating around 300 helicopters, for a force which has an overall strength, including the reservists, which is 1/5th of the active Indian Army strength. The IA on the other hand flies roughly 190+ helicopters.
So this alone is enough to show that even if we follow the JHC model, the AAC would still require around another 150 plus helicopters, atleast, to be added to its existing strength to bring it to a decent standing. Why not make half of those numbers with attack helicopters and be done with it. Both get to operate the attack helicopters, with the Airforce ones being employed for SEAD/DEAD and Army ones being used for CAS.

PS- 300 numbers include around 70 Apache Attack helicopters.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Oct 2011 15:18

this surprised me, i had no idea that the AAC operated so many apaches. just goes to show how many more india needs than our current strength

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 12 Oct 2011 16:24

sum wrote:More details on the "theater-isation" concept of IA:

Coming soon: An 'agile, lethal, versatile' Indian Army

Could the gurus break this down, please? How exactly it would be done, what changes in command this would lead to?
As I understand it, it means that all operations within an operating theatre would have a more or less central command. Sounds good coordination-wise, maybe not so good in terms of decision-making speed, though I might be completely wrong.

On a related topic, has anyone read Thomas E Ricks' excellent series on the auftragstaktik concept? Could someone tell me how the IA operates, in this sense?
Link: http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/?page=9

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Oct 2011 16:35

'combined HQ' should speed up the decision making cycle based on battle objectives - and deploy any relevant available force against that objective
i.e. if an advance is held up and the artillery are busy with other tasks, then air assets can be immediately directed against the hold up, etc.
each service provides a component in the battle space and is directed against the most relevant objective at that time
allows for much greater manouvre

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 12 Oct 2011 19:20

vardhank wrote:On a related topic, has anyone read Thomas E Ricks' excellent series on the auftragstaktik concept? Could someone tell me how the IA operates, in this sense?

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1163956

Indian Army is generally behfelstaktik (top-down command and control). It is relaxed in special cases -- usually when strict c&c is impossible because of terrain, lack of communication, or speed of operations.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Oct 2011 19:25

So CS--> Running start
The pivot will morph/transform to the spearhead.

GD and rohit, Imagine a defensive formation changing shape to an offensive formation while underway. And imagine it operating on a wide front to preclude speaicla weapon usage.

IA needs those helis to be under control for above to occur. Those 13 studies have shown that. IAF can train and supply the pilots or IA can second its officers to the IAF helicopter schools.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Oct 2011 19:29

Yogi Patel, Time for you to write up an article on Sudarshan Shakti?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 12 Oct 2011 21:27

ASP

Whats even stupider is the PM's typical dud reaction. Instead of taking a decision like a PM is supposed to, he has said "sort it out amongst yourselves". What is this nonsense? Is this how government is run?

Unfortunately thats how the Army works too

When SF has issues with Para - Army HQ said the same thing - work it out amongst yourselves

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Oct 2011 21:35

I disagree. He did the right thing in laying out the end result "sort it out" and left the method to them "among yourseves" This way there is no rancour of an imposed solution besides they are the experts and would know how to acheive the end goal which is to resolve it and not on how.

Its a program mgr type decision and not a Nimrod type.