Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 10 Oct 2011 15:21

nits wrote:As other side of coin - this advisory turns in other "intrested" party to track all such test...

i suppose the testing party (i.e. us) will deny access to other tracking ships. also it is unlikely that they will be able to set up their radars and others equipments within short time frame between being notified and actual test. only thing that cant be controlled is the satellites if they are passing over the region at the time of test.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2011 01:16

Interestng that the A3 had pinpoint accuracy and this A5 will have 100s of meters. So something is different in this version. Both have 60% commonality especially the F/S and navigation system.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Oct 2011 05:00

^^ Pinpoint is a figure of speech. Very few IR/CBMs have double digit CEP figures. The RVs typically dont have much of control surfaces and limited fuel for course correction.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2011 05:20

TS, The Agni RVs are not your old ballistic RVs. Lets see anyway.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2011 05:48

narayana wrote:Do we need to take any permissions prior to these tests,like the UN etc to use international waters for the splash?

Narayana, no disrespect intended. I feel sorry when I hear a question like this, and I literally want to hold you like i used to hold my son as a small child and teach him right from wrong. It is the dadagiri of other countries upon your parents/grandparents and teachers that make Indians think like this - the timidness of a civilization that has been indoctrinated to "ask permission" to survive. It makes us think that there is some other entity like UN that will give "permission" for us to use the Indian Ocean.

It our fuking ocean. No one needs to give us permission. We give others permission if we want. At least that is the attitude required to make others think about who is who in this world. Those waters become "international" only if we declare them so. Or else its our pond. Please spread the word. It's just an attitude. Indians have the attitude of those who were ruled. That is why we dhoti shiver when China asks why we are in the South China sea.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2011 09:18

We have seen end burners where the large initial thrust drops off. But burns for a long time. So the star type core was designed to give ~ constant thrust. A conical motor with central core will be top burner. We need to see the thrust vs time profile for a notional conical top burner.

Sprint was a US missile with conical shape. But had a tapered motor with forward end smaller than the aft end. So looked like a conical shape but was a core burner.
Most likely the A5 T/S is shaped like that,

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Oct 2011 09:44

Will the range cover whole of Asur-Talia or some regions only ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Oct 2011 09:52

the 5000km circle of love from chennai does not cover *any* part of asur talia except their immigrant detention center on christmas island. but it covers all of lizard right upto manchuria from wheeler island. it also covers none of europe on the mediterranean rim.

so its a real stroke of genius this 5000km as we can claim it as lizard-specific and not meant to 'threaten friendly nations'

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Oct 2011 15:33

Shiv,spot on,but who said it is the SC Sea?It is the Indo-China Sea as far as I'm concerned as the region/landmass has always been known as "Indo-China"!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Oct 2011 15:44

Singha wrote:the 5000km circle of love from chennai does not cover *any* part of asur talia except their immigrant detention center on christmas island. but it covers all of lizard right upto manchuria from wheeler island. it also covers none of europe on the mediterranean rim.

so its a real stroke of genius this 5000km as we can claim it as lizard-specific and not meant to 'threaten friendly nations'

What I seem incapable of understanding is, the effort that goes towards limiting the range of the Indian BMs. If this persists, we will have and A6 for 6K Km range, and A10 for a weapon having a range of 10K Kms.

The MOD ought to just tell the DRDO that they want a heavy ICBM with MIRV capability and be done with that. It is within the capabilities of the DRDO today. India is a nuke power and the ROW will view that development with any degree of hostility.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 11 Oct 2011 16:52

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 11 Oct 2011 17:37

Pratyush wrote:
Singha wrote:the 5000km circle of love from chennai does not cover *any* part of asur talia except their immigrant detention center on christmas island. but it covers all of lizard right upto manchuria from wheeler island. it also covers none of europe on the mediterranean rim.

so its a real stroke of genius this 5000km as we can claim it as lizard-specific and not meant to 'threaten friendly nations'

What I seem incapable of understanding is, the effort that goes towards limiting the range of the Indian BMs. If this persists, we will have and A6 for 6K Km range, and A10 for a weapon having a range of 10K Kms.

The MOD ought to just tell the DRDO that they want a heavy ICBM with MIRV capability and be done with that. It is within the capabilities of the DRDO today. India is a nuke power and the ROW will view that development with any degree of hostility.

We won't be having any A6 with 6K range. The reason why we limited range of A5 to 5K is, as Singha already said to make it look china specific.

Why do we need a 10K range missile? Against whom will we use it?

Even if there is some secret research going on in this direction, it will be limited to get "know how" only. I don't see any reason that GOI will go for a test of any such missile in the coming 8-10 years.

Maybe at some point in future when we will be having more of a global power ambitions GOI will give a green signal for a 10-13K ICBM. But its a stepwise process and right now our aim is to be a regional power.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 11 Oct 2011 18:33

shiv wrote:
narayana wrote:Do we need to take any permissions prior to these tests,like the UN etc to use international waters for the splash?
Narayana, no disrespect intended. I feel sorry when I hear a question like this, and I literally want to hold you like i used to hold my son as a small child and teach him right from wrong. It is the dadagiri of other countries upon your parents/grandparents and teachers that make Indians think like this - the timidness of a civilization that has been indoctrinated to "ask permission" to survive. It makes us think that there is some other entity like UN that will give "permission" for us to use the Indian Ocean.

It our fuking ocean. No one needs to give us permission. We give others permission if we want. At least that is the attitude required to make others think about who is who in this world. Those waters become "international" only if we declare them so. Or else its our pond. Please spread the word. It's just an attitude. Indians have the attitude of those who were ruled. That is why we dhoti shiver when China asks why we are in the South China sea.

I recollect an oldish Hindi film song

Jhukti hai duniya juhukane wala chaiye !!!!

K

PS By the ya where is this fuking island ????

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Oct 2011 18:35

er with a lighter payload the a3 and a5 could fly much farther.
more interesting will be size and range of k4 .

from southern ior the distance to shenyang is 10000km. if we want opsec fr ssbnsxwe need to let them roam far and wide. so no escaping the 10k khujli for k4 ideally 15k

ur move next

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 11 Oct 2011 19:07

all will come in its own sweet time

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Oct 2011 19:14

lizard will not wait until we ponderouslt build up. he will strike when he can. a 1962 type debacle will crush indian national morale and lose us many potential allies and opportunities.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2011 19:55

I thought about the conical motor bit overnight. I think its a tapered cylinder or a frustrum of a cone with a core burner. With filament winding this shape is possible.
Basically they are using up some of the payload section space envelope to put this third stage motor.
If so then the actual payload might be purely ballistic and hence the "100s meters" accuarcy.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 11 Oct 2011 20:21

From Agni-2 latest test held few days back:

The Circular Error Probability (CEP) was within a few metres showing that the missile’s terminal accuracy was good.

On Agni-3 3rd test held in 2008:

A special system, called ring-laser gyro-based inertial navigation system, was flown on board for higher accuracy of the flight. The circular error probable was in single digit, indicating the high accuracy of the system, Mr. Chander said.

On Agni-3 4th test held in 2010:

An elated V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, called it “a fantastic launch and a hat-trick.”
“The flight gave us the full range and pin-point accuracy. The missile travelled accurately its entire range to its last decimal place as we had planned. ”

============================

A top DRDO official told 8ak that the missile’s Circular Error Probable (CEP) is within 40 meters range, which makes it one of the most sophisticated and accurate ballistic missiles of its range class in the world

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 02#p828102

40m was set as expected accuracy, i.e. necessary accuracy needed for the strategic role as kind of benchmark. But what was achieved was much more than that, exceeding the expectation. Any ball hit over the rope line in Cricket is called Sixer. Even if it crosses the stadium and not just the boundary mark, in official status, it is called Sixer only, na, something like that. There was similar description attributed to the accuracy of the Prithvi/Dhanush missile too.

Similarly, Agni-5 accuracy of few hundred meters, as reported by Avinash Chander, is considered acceptable ( lower limit ). But how much it actually gains will be known after test.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 11 Oct 2011 20:30

gakakkad wrote: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... 4bccb9ab05

"“I would say the Shaurya is a hybrid propulsion missile”, says Saraswat. “Like a ballistic missile, it is powered by solid fuel. And, like a cruise missile, it can guide itself right up to the target.”"

What does Saraswat mean by hybrid propulsion ?

My interpretation was that it is a scramjet (as he describes it as a cruise missile) in which initial propulsion is by a rocket engine to achieve the mach number necessary to fire up a scramjet... why else would he say hybrid propulsion... Of course one can disagree...I am no raakit scientist....

again the answer depends upon what propels 2nd stage ...

Some thoughts on this :

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 67#p826967

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 11 Oct 2011 20:44

Singha wrote:lizard will not wait until we ponderouslt build up. he will strike when he can. a 1962 type debacle will crush indian national morale and lose us many potential allies and opportunities.

Saar plz find reply in China Military Watch thread.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Oct 2011 21:39

generally the CEP would tend to increase as range goes higher if same guidance tech is used. achieving a CEP of 100m @ 5000km is gotta be more tough than @1000km

with the kind of 300kT warheads commonly lobbed about by the khans one reads that counterforce attacks at missile silos need 100m CEP which is what minuteman-III had (trident is probably better).

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 11 Oct 2011 23:26

There will be no anti-Satellite tests from Khan. They used a humble SAM, the venerable Standard Missile to do yeoman sarveej to the world by knocking off a frozen slush of hydrazine from orbit. It was a pleasant surprise when the aging SAM actually did what it was, um, never intended to do. The world never felt better.

Like wise, there will be no ICBM tests from India, however much jingo feels sad. Only china-centric IRBM tests (btw, we should thank the pakis for inventing "our nukes/mijjiles are for India onlee" rhetoric device and blowing hot air up the world's ass)

It is commendable that in a span of just 20 odd years of testing, we are at this point in forging swords and shields

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Oct 2011 00:07

Kanson, Maybe there is message, when the larger value for the accuracy is being accepted, about the payload size?

Next there willl be NPA paraoxysms on estimating yeild by the miss distance!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Oct 2011 07:43

kinda liked the sprint missile specs ramana pointed to. zero to mach10 in 5 secs...thats about the velocity of a tank shell. EMP surge n-warhead.

could be a lot of cool stuff to do with such energetic burning propellants and EMP warheads if we could control the side effect of taking down all electronics.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Oct 2011 09:19

India and Russia are developing hypersonic cruise missile with stealth technology ( gazeta.ru )

India and Russia are developing hypersonic cruise missile "BrahMos" with stealth technology, which will speed at nearly seven times speed of sound, according to Interfax. According to the Head «BrahMos Aerospace» Sivathanu Pillai, to develop and implement a rocket for the fifth generation fighter will need 5-6 years.

"Work has already started - said Sivathanu Pillai. - For this version of the cruise missile will be developed by a new engine and related materials that can withstand high temperatures and vibration, as well as electronic systems keep working. "

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Oct 2011 11:41

Austin wrote:India and Russia are developing hypersonic cruise missile with stealth technology ( gazeta.ru )

...

Hopefully, there are plans to build cruise missiles that fit in the internal weapon bays of PAF-FA/FGFA and AMCA.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Oct 2011 17:06

Prat has made a good point that a "heavy" ICBM capable missile of range 10,000km could actually be a very useful missile with a large number of MIRVs and decoys aboard with lesser range. This would severely complicate the BM defences of the enemy if 6-9 warheads plus an assortment of decoys had to be dealt with.It also serves as insurance in case some mad dictator grabs power of a N-power state.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Oct 2011 17:48

The whole interview is here

India, Russia to develop hypersonic BrahMos missile: Pillai

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Oct 2011 18:01

I think stealth coating is good enough for missiles. The scope is only that much.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Oct 2011 19:11

Phi.lp,. Your assumption is 'one BMD missile per one incoming". Just so you think about it, mirving can be done on the defences too.
Tab khay hoga kaaliya!

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Oct 2011 19:32

ramana wrote:Kanson, Maybe there is message, when the larger value for the accuracy is being accepted, about the payload size?

Next there willl be NPA paraoxysms on estimating yeild by the miss distance!

Definitely, this will evoke such discussion. May be the messg from Chander on warhead of 150/250 kt yield is meant to forestall such attempt? As Singha mentioned above, Americans have chosen their yield size and CEP of their missile in such a way to destroy entire Russian ICBM forces through Counter Force by more than 90%. For >300 KT yield which is their std yield of such missiles their CEP lies between 100 - 200 m.

As the Agni-5 with 5000 km can cover significant part of Russia including Moscow, the messg of few hundred meters as CEP for 150/250 kt may be a deliberate ploy not to raise any alarm in Moscow? May be the trip of Chander to Moscow before the Agni-5 test is to assuage Russians about any such perceptions?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Oct 2011 19:37

Is he really going there?

Also were those the numbers he said?

To my untrained mind, few hundred meters means atleast 200m. And this one is max range flight to convey the message.

I think this way they convey the payload's potency in no uncertain terms.

What this also means is its ballistic reentry and not error corrected re-entry for this one.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Oct 2011 19:53

>>Is he really going there?
http://pibmumbai.gov.in/scripts/detail. ... 2011PR1560

>>Also were those the numbers he said?

“Megaton warheads were used when accuracies were low. Now we talk of (accuracy of) a few hundred metres. That allows a smaller warhead, perhaps 150-250 kilotons, to cause substantial damage. We don’t want to cause wanton damage (with megaton warheads),” says Chander.

>>To my untrained mind, few hundred meters means atleast 200m. And this one is max range flight to convey the message. I think this way they convey the payload's potency in no uncertain terms.
What this also means is its ballistic reentry and not error corrected re-entry for this one.

Could be.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 12 Oct 2011 22:51

The article on hypersonic Brahmos talks about building materials that can withstand temperatures for a mach 6 or 7 flight at the same time the last Shaurya test boasted of mach 7.5 flight, so the new materials are needed for Brahmos since it flies at lower altitudes than Shaurya and hence reaches even higher temperatures?

In all this, Shaurya can be used to test a scramjet engine? or Brahmos (built from currently available materials) can be boosted to 50km altitude to test its hypersonic flight?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 12 Oct 2011 23:06

Brahmos and Shri Pillai have been talking about a Hypersonic Brahmos for quite some time, since then significant work should have been done (unless all that talk was hot air) so these research grants to develop Bells & Whistles should be develop cooler bells and whistles which they don't want to talk about in the open or payment for mall already received and incorporated. Nice too see IISC and some Moscov R&D lab getting huge funding, will be a shot in the arm for them both.

Few widgets for Brahmos and Shaurya could be used in the other, primarily these are completely different beasts (Range, payload, flight envelope etc). They probably need newer engine, advanced materials for missile body and control surfaces and above all Stealth (which I think is what they are working on now).

JMT.

John · Post by **John** » 12 Oct 2011 23:37

vasu_ray wrote:The article on hypersonic Brahmos talks about building materials that can withstand temperatures for a mach 6 or 7 flight at the same time the last Shaurya test boasted of mach 7.5 flight, so the new materials are needed for Brahmos since it flies at lower altitudes than Shaurya and hence reaches even higher temperatures?

Shaurya achieved those speeds at higher altitude (30km+) and is quasi ballistic missile, in other hand Brahmos will have to fly closer to sea level in terminal phase and at the same time perform maneuvers even achieving mach 3+ at sea level would require materials and design far more complicated than ever attempted.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 13 Oct 2011 00:15

ramana wrote:Phi.lp,. Your assumption is 'one BMD missile per one incoming". Just so you think about it, mirving can be done on the defences too.
Tab khay hoga kaaliya!

How would that work? I thought the ABM is a single stage device that works on endo and exo layers of the atmospheres. Since there is no re-entry role for the ABM, how will MIRV of such an ABM work?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Oct 2011 00:28

you can have many such small vehicles on a booster to near orbital altitude and they can hunt the incoming down no?

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 13 Oct 2011 00:47

Sorta like the 'smart skeet' technology built into the 'sensor fused weapon', except adapted for ABM use. GREAT IDEA!

[youtube]a00Spe8U6PM&NR[/youtube]

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Oct 2011 01:03

Well was thinking of a dozen mini vehicles in clusters based on nags/astra in cluster being released against incoming.