Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 2011

[A_Gupta]

How true is this? Can someone verify its veracity?

Pakistan’s role in Afghanistan’s reconstruction

http://hajvairygroup.com/content/conten ... ctsog.html

[parsuram]

Nandu: I made my points. By adding your voice to the interminable paki whine about being used as a condom by the US, you add to their unjustified complaint. Once more, ID of the turburns doesn't matter: read my post to figure out why.

[RCase]

Here is an amusing one that I came across about Kashmir and TSP claims.



Apologies if this is the incorrect thread.

[Nandu]

By adding your voice to the interminable paki whine about being used as a condom by the US, you add to their unjustified complaint.

Nope, by saying they are using an unsubstantiated quote to support their whine, I am refudiating it.

Anyways, I have had my say too. I am leaving it here. Please continue without me.

[shiv]

at least once a week, I get over to the NASA & other sci, arts, tech. web sites and check out, among other things, the breath taking images streaming in from the moons and the planets to appreaciate what the US does so well. No, there is no eqeq between the US and the paki, anymore than there is between the paki and India, and indeed, India, in its own modest way contributes just as well to expanding knowledge as the US does. Let us not get confused on who is on the side of expanding human knowledge and civilization here.

True Parsuram. But it is important not to confuse the US with India (no you are not doing that). It is also important not to confuse advancement in science and technology with greatness and "rightness of purpose". Any Indian who looked at Great Britain in the late 1800s would have seen a power that was present all over the world. They had wonderful means of transport linking up their nation and had built the same in other parts of the world. Machines existed for all sorts of things that previously had to be done ineffectually or not at all by humans. Machines were mining minerals like never before and boring holes into the center of the earth. High quality chemistry, physics and metallurgy were being used to make reliable ships to sail the most dangerous waters of the world. The weapons were first class and precision instruments were produced for navigation. There was an explosion of culture, arts, drama, literature and music. It was truly a superpower. And yet they were racist and tyrannical in India when it came to looking after their "own interests".

Any Indian who entered that environment was taken up by the breathtaking dynamism of that culture and became a "WOG" - a Westernized Oriental Gentleman, also known as Macaulayite, or Brown sahib or boxwallah. And a lot of Indians absorbed British attitudes towards India when they observed the greatness of Britain. The Britain of the day was far superior to anything India could offer and the people were individually and culturally far ahead of the dirt poor, unproductive, illiterate, hungry, superstitious Indian. Nehru, Gandhi and Jinnah were all Westernized Indian gentlemen who "turned hostile" and their views helped create India, and Pakhanastan

The US has served exactly that model for the modern Indian. A lot of Indians have been awed by the sheer presence, power and potential of the United States after leaving behind the Spartan humility an of a drab and uninspiring India that had become independent a decade or two previously. A new class of Indian in America who is the equivalent of the olde Britishe Macaulayite boxwallah was created, American in mind but Indian in appearance.

There will always be differences of opinion about what is considered "right" for India since the opinion is always based on the experiential background of the person making that prescription. Everyone has India's interests at heart, but contempt for "the Indian" and scathing references to Indian leadership or military behaviour in comparison with American behavior is a modern day example of the "brown sahib" attitude of fractal recursivity where the colonized (mind) takes on the characteristics of the colonizer and looks at his own people with those attitudes and asks why his own people are unable to display the superior characteristics of the greater nation.

There should be no need to compare Indian and American leaders and there should be no need to compare the way India and the US handle Pakistan if the comparison is made merely to deride, diss and criticise the Indian side from the viewpoint of the "superior American way". If "India had been like America" and "If Indian leaders were like American leaders" they would do blah blah blah is a completely useless exercise of fractal recursivity by someone who recognizes "the greatness of the culture he has adopted" and uses that insight to prescribe what is good and what is bad to other Indians whom he feels do not benefit from his personal insight into a fundamentally superior American way of dealing with things. That is fractal recursivity to a T. When I see it, I point it out.

[A_Gupta]

^^^ 3 cheers, Shiv!

[Airavat]

Pakistan has no stomach for anti-Taliban operations

Pakistan’s fragile civilian government regularly condemns terrorism, and the army has executed several operations in the country’s northwest, including against Pakistani Taliban factions in the Swat Valley and South Waziristan. The battles have scattered some militant leaders, leaving the organization weakened but still capable of carrying out deadly attacks. But there is little public enthusiasm for large-scale military action, which could displace millions of people. “Everyone went along with what the army wanted” at the recent political summit, said Rahimullah Yousafzai, a Pakistani journalist and expert on militancy in the northwest. “It became obvious that the military has no appetite for military operations.”

Meanwhile, Pakistan is jockeying for inclusion in any Afghan political settlement, which security officials here believe will bring Afghan Taliban representatives into the government. The army therefore sees little incentive to antagonize Pakistan insurgents, who commingle with their Afghan counterparts, security analysts said. In interviews, politicians and security officials said Pakistan views the Pakistani Taliban, an umbrella insurgent group that is an offshoot of the Afghan movement, as splintered enough to be open to peace deals mediated through tribal elders or clerics. And the United States, they note, is supporting a similar approach in Afghanistan.

[sanjaykumar]

Does a rejection of the greatness of Inglaand and Amreeka necessarily entail that Indians should sh!t communally, is the yellow-man so alien from dharma that his human development indices at an equivalent GDP hold no lessons for those who are convinced that there is a higher life than science and engineering and mere public cleanliness; discovered of course by the modern Indian. That corruption in India is tolerable because unlike China's, it is more widely participatory and hence democratic.

It is much like the wizened spinster extolling the virtue of virtue. It would be more convincing, certainly credible, coming from an apsara. When Indians in India resolve to develop a demonstrative culture rather than a platitudinous one, they will have earned the right to flaunt high-minded principles to the rest.

[shiv]

"Rejection of greatness of Britain or America" is stupid. Expecting that exact same model of greatness from India is both stupid and unrealistic. Whatever we get - it will be different. Comparing one unfavorably with another is a waste of time. More to the point on this thread, India will never ever handle Pakistan the way America does. Imagining that to be possible is equally a waste of time.

[menon s]

A new Policy of containment, of Pakistan

Bruce Reidel...

It is time to move to a policy of containment, which would mean a more hostile relationship. But it should be a focused hostility, aimed not at hurting Pakistan’s people but at holding its army and intelligence branches accountable. When we learn that an officer from Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, is aiding terrorism, whether in Afghanistan or India, we should put him on wanted lists, sanction him at the United Nations and, if he is dangerous enough, track him down. Putting sanctions on organizations in Pakistan has not worked in the past, but sanctioning individuals has — as the nuclear proliferator Abdul Qadeer Khan could attest.

Offering Pakistan more trade while reducing aid makes sense. When we extend traditional aid, media outlets with ties to the ISI cite the aid to weave conspiracy theories that alienate Pakistanis from us. Mr. Obama should instead announce that he is cutting tariffs on Pakistani textiles to or below the level that India and China enjoy; that would strengthen entrepreneurs and women, two groups who are outside the army’s control and who are interested in peace.

Military assistance to Pakistan should be cut deeply. Regular contacts between our officers and theirs can continue, but under no delusion that we are allies.

America and Pakistan have had a tempestuous relationship for decades. For far too long we have banked on the Pakistani Army to protect our interests. Now we need to contain that army’s aggressive instincts, while helping those who want a progressive Pakistan and keeping up the fight against terrorism

Defang the Pakistan, military, is not easy as you think. Meanwhile, its a great time for India, to do that at this stage.

[Dipanker]

Hundreds of US troops seal NWA border

MIRAMSHAH/PESHAWAR: The United States shifted hundreds of its troops to the Afghan area bordering North Waziristan on Sunday along with heavy arms and gunship helicopters and sealed the Pak-Afghan border for all types of movement.

Tribesmen living in the border areas said Afghan and US authorities had clamped a curfew in the Gurbaz area of Afghanistan’s Khost province and started house-to-house searches. The abrupt deployment of US forces near the border area with Pakistan has escalated tension in the militancy-plagued North Waziristan tribal region as US forces immediately sealed the main Ghulam Khan-Khost highway for traffic. This stranded more than 900 loaded trucks, including those carrying Nato consignments, and passenger vehicles the whole day.

Pakistani security officials and tribal sources in Ghulam Khan area said US forces had arrived there during the night between Saturday and Sunday and occupied nearby hilltops and established observation posts. Sources said US forces had set up a huge military base across the border and shifted gunship helicopters, heavy tanks, long-range artillery guns and other heavy weapons to the border area. The villagers in Ghulam Khan said Nato warplanes were also seen flying over the border region several times during the day. Tribal elders of the Gurbaz tribe inhabiting both sides of the Durand Line said US forces had clamped a curfew in Tarkhobi area and asked villagers to stay at home. They also claimed that US and Afghan forces had launched house-to-house search but were clueless about any arrests made during the search operation.

The elders said the Gurbaz tribe is living on both sides of the border and the tribespeople easily cross the border whenever required or in emergency situations. They said many of their relatives, fearing clashes in Gurbaz, had been trying to flee their homes and villages for North Waziristan, but were not able to do so as the border has been sealed and curfew en forced.

Pakistani security officials in North Waziristan confirmed the latest development and said they were monitoring the situation on the border with Afghanistan. However, they did not want to publicly comment on the closing of the Pak-Afghan border by US forces, which caused traffic jams on the Pakistani side of the border.

Government functionaries in Miramshah, the headquarters of North Waziristan, said more than 900 heavy loaded vehicles carrying various items to Afghanistan had been stranded on the Ghulam Khan road. Tribesmen in North Waziristan were concerned about the arrival of US forces at their doors, but vowed to render every sacrifice for the defence of their homeland in case foreign troops crossed over into Pakistan.

However, they said they did not expect US forces to cross the border to enter Pakistani territory. “It will be a blunder on their part if the Americans enter North Waziristan,” said a noted tribal chieftain, Malik Mamoor Khan, in Miramshah. Another tribal elder, Malik Nasrullah Khan, said Waziristan was the land of brave and peace-loving tribespeople and they would never allow any outside power to invade it.

[RajeshA]

The US has served exactly that model for the modern Indian. A lot of Indians have been awed by the sheer presence, power and potential of the United States after leaving behind the Spartan humility an of a drab and uninspiring India that had become independent a decade or two previously. A new class of Indian in America who is the equivalent of the olde Britishe Macaulayite boxwallah was created, American in mind but Indian in appearance.

There will always be differences of opinion about what is considered "right" for India since the opinion is always based on the experiential background of the person making that prescription. Everyone has India's interests at heart, but contempt for "the Indian" and scathing references to Indian leadership or military behaviour in comparison with American behavior is a modern day example of the "brown sahib" attitude of fractal recursivity where the colonized (mind) takes on the characteristics of the colonizer and looks at his own people with those attitudes and asks why his own people are unable to display the superior characteristics of the greater nation.

There should be no need to compare Indian and American leaders and there should be no need to compare the way India and the US handle Pakistan if the comparison is made merely to deride, diss and criticise the Indian side from the viewpoint of the "superior American way". If "India had been like America" and "If Indian leaders were like American leaders" they would do blah blah blah is a completely useless exercise of fractal recursivity by someone who recognizes "the greatness of the culture he has adopted" and uses that insight to prescribe what is good and what is bad to other Indians whom he feels do not benefit from his personal insight into a fundamentally superior American way of dealing with things. That is fractal recursivity to a T. When I see it, I point it out.

We have to be careful not to fall into the Pakistan trap! Pakistan wants to define itself as the opposite of India so it may decline many of Indian way of doing things!

So too if we recognize that certain technologies, certain organizational forms, certain theories on strategic thinking, certain business practices, certain military doctrines, certain methods enabling higher productivity, etc. of some other successful countries have proven effective, should we not study them further and see what we can adopt given our conditions?

All our nations are in a rat race! If we see other countries speeding by just because they are using a race car and we see our leadership hanging on to the donkey, because it is their childhood friend, isn't it our responsibility to point it out to them?

We need to be assured that we have a leadership which is cognizant about the need to become more effective in governance, in research, in development, in productivity, in competition, in social stability, in meting out justice, and as such is working with a dedicated mind to increase that effectiveness.

The ways the government increases that effectiveness can be methods the own government has come up on its own or these can be methods emulated from elsewhere. What the public demands is effectiveness. If the public does not see it, it points that out to the government, and the only means for the public to see this lack of effectiveness is through comparison, so comparisons will be made and it is good that they are made! It educates the public about the possibilities.

What the public wants to see is not the same speed as some other country, but want an assurance that the government is doing all that is possible given our conditions and that the government is open-minded and always on the search for ways to deliver better.

There are two types of commentary here:
1) Dissing our government and society for not applying more effective methods
2) Pointing out more effective methods, as applied by other countries

Now there is nothing intrinsically great about the brains of the British or the Americans! They are also humans! There is no need to worship them, or emulate their cultural traits! The problem spoken of earlier arises, when the two commentaries get combined and one reaches some conclusion that just because some other country has applied more effective methods, it is somehow superior to ours, and thus deserves blind awe and emulation without regard for differences in conditions on the ground between the countries!

In fact we want our government and society to adopt methods which can deliver the most effectiveness given our conditions. Simply emulating those methods from abroad too may not be the best advise for our particular conditions.

We need to avoid blind awe and emulation, but one should not stop both commentaries taking place. Otherwise we are all Pakis! Self-criticism is important to improve ourselves! Despair, frustration, or inferiority-complexes are however useless accompaniments to self-criticism!

[Upendra]

How true is this? Can someone verify its veracity?

Pakistan’s role in Afghanistan’s reconstruction

Reconstructing people's bodies, one bomb at a time

[Dipanker]

Nato copter intrudes into Balochistan

Published: October 17, 2011
CHAMAN (Agencies) - Violating the airspace of Pakistan on Sunday, a Nato helicopter entered into Chaman area of Balochistan and went back after a 15-minute flight.
Sources said that Afghan authorities closed the Chaman border for an hour as Nato officials carried out their illegal visit to the border area. The violation of Pakistani airspace has increased over the past few days.

[shiv]

Otherwise we are all Pakis!

Never underestimate the extent to which we are Pakis. We ignore our Pakiness at the risk of not being able to understand ourselves or anyone else. Blind dislike for any sense of identity that an Indian may display be it a sense of being "Indian" or "American" or "Paki" is a formula for misunderstanding the way many of our own compatriots think and behave.

We are allowed to misunderstand, but we will not be able to predict or change behavior by a blind dislike of realities that exist. Indians will handle Pakistan differently from Americans and it is not merely a question of money or technology. We are different and behave differently.

As a natural consequence of the fact that Indians and Americans handle Pakistan differently, there will be differences in opinion and conflicts of interest between the American way and the Indian way. Understanding the American way is not enough. Understanding the Indian way is important because Indians are not going to become American and start acting to deal with Pakistan the American way. Blind dislike and criticism of the Indian way as cowardly, ineffective, spineless, brainless, traitorous etc merely hampers understanding without making any difference to the fact that Indians as a group will keep on behaving irresolute, fractious, spineless and cowardly. That will go on, but we will only sit by and curse India for not being America. We can only get a grasp of how Indians behave as a nation by watching them and not howling that they are different from America or China. Of course they are.

[RajeshA]

As a natural consequence of the fact that Indians and Americans handle Pakistan differently, there will be differences in opinion and conflicts of interest between the American way and the Indian way.

The comments I made were general, and not related to how America and India handle Pakistan. They were a response to generalized theories on emulating others while dissing our own!

As far as dealing with Pak is concerned, I have no doubt that militarily we will deal with them more effectively. Strategically America has allowed itself to be taken prisoner, has become a monkey with its fist holding Afghanistan stuck in a jar.

So I don't see any American superiority of methods here! Nothing at least that deserves emulation! So it is a moot point whether India should deal with Pakistan, the way the Americans deal with them! Of course not!

[parsuram]

shiv ji: I have a small note on the physics thread re Western & Hindu view of civilization, knowledge, etc. you might look at it to see how one can clearly differentiate the two:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/postin ... &p=1158669

[Rudradev]

There are three things which should not be conflated here:

1) The US is not an invincible superpower and is in many ways helpless to impose its political will on Pakistan. As Shiv says. Completely true.

2) India is not the equal of the US in many ways; and it can hardly be expected to use certain attributes of its power against Pakistan, as effectively as the US has used its military might against Iraq, Grenada or Serbia. Even the US itself is paralysed with fears that prevent them from employing such options against Pakistan. That India isn't providing a "shock and awe" military response to Pakistan after every terrorist attack, doesn't in and of itself mean that the Indian government is cowardly, ineffective, weak, incompetent or treacherous.

3) On the other hand, many things that the Indian government is doing... including

a) the NIA's (deliberate?) failure to produce public evidence of the Pakistani hand in the Pune blast, Varanasi blast, Mumbai blast and every other terrorist attack since 26/11;

b) the Home Ministry's apparent directive to absorb such terrorist atrocities against Indian civilians endlessly, as long as the threshold is kept below 26/11 levels in terms of public perception;

c) the persecution of Indian citizens and soldiers under the utterly fabricated strawman of "Hindutva terrorism" when the GOI is unable to effectively terminate Pakistanis and their proxies (Maoists, Indian Mujahedin) within India;

d) the appointment of "interlocutors" who have taken ISI money and come back with a report that prescribes less integration and more "autonomy" for Kashmir;

e) the blatant robbery of tens of billions of dollars per scam from the public treasury, which could have been used to improve internal security or defense preparedness among other things;

... ALL provide clinching evidence that the Mainovadi Indian government IS incompetent AND treacherous. They have nothing to do with BR Forumites' comparisons of Indian policy to the United States' effectiveness, or lack thereof, in handling Pakistan.

[shiv]

Quite apart from the way India and the US may "handle" Pakistan there are differences in the way Pakistan and Pakistanis respond to the US as against how they respond towards India.

For historic reasons, Pakistanis approach India as an enemy who is trying to destroy them. The India factor looms large in Pakistan's relationship with any country on earth, Pakistan's relationship with India started from the moment of its birth, but its relationship with the USA started later. And that relationship was deliberately constructed as one where Pakistan wold help the US fight its foe (communist evil empires) while the US would recognise and acknowledge Pakistan's deadly foe, India.

So there is absolutely no way in which India can even begin to build up a relationship with Pakistan as the US has done. One of the common myths here is that the US-Pakistan relationship is one of master with servant. The erroneous conclusion that is reached from this erroneous observation is that if India becomes strong and behaves strong like the USA it can make Pakistanis react obsequiously towards India. What is missed from this misinterpretation is that Pakistan's obsequiousness comes as repayment to the US for military and diplomatic aid given to Pakistan in its "Just war against Hindu mistreatment of Muslims in Cashmere" a conclusion that the US incidentally does not disagree with. India is left with the onus of correcting a lie that Pakistan has told to the US. A lie that the US chooses to believe for various convenient historic reasons. The US-Pak relationship is NOT a master slave relationship. It is totally transactional. In recent days, when the US is seen as having reneged in its support to Pakistan against Pakistan's main enemy by demanding that Pakistan take action against ts own allies, Pakistan's previous obsequiousness has been replaced by defiance.

If India's actions are judged by comparing them with US actions and the US Pakistani relationship itself is misjudged as a pure master-slave relationship, we are basically talking crap. A lot of the discussion eventually end up based on this crap.

[harbans]

Thus it is that just as Western canons shaped and continues to shape western society, so do Hindu paradigms govern Hindu and associated Indic faith & societies.

Parsuram Ji, this is IMHO a fallacy. Western canons of Modern thought are built upon philosophers borrowing very heavily from Indic thought. Indic thought is not just about some rituals and ossifications. It's major contrast with Western religion as in Islam and Xianity is the concept of what one ultimately wants. Material heavens promised from the Arabic sands..while escape from the Karmic cycle common thread for Indic. That in itself defines a lot of what we are and how we interact. Despite aberrations and the many exceptions to the rule.

[parsuram]

harbans ji: I differntiate the two based on subjective and objective reality. The west, very early, rejected subjective reality as being of little consequence. Indic thought gives equal weight to the two.

PS But what you point out is a unique feature of Indic thought, and therefore contributes uniquely to the evolution of Indic thinking & philosophy in general.

[panda]

May be nothing, but for what it is worth:

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/us-ga ... rt/860908/

Tribesmen living in the North Waziristan region are worried as the United States troops in Afghanistan gathered along the border with Pakistan's insurgents-infested area.

Tribal elder Malik Muhammad Mumtaz said that that travellers coming from Afghanistan had informed the people they had seen movement of the US troops in Afghanistan near the Pakistani border areas.

[shiv]

shiv ji: I have a small note on the physics thread re Western & Hindu view of civilization, knowledge, etc. you might look at it to see how one can clearly differentiate the two:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/postin ... &p=1158669

Needs to go in the good posts thread for starters.

[gakakkad]

Dawoods family..photo album...they seemed to have mixed well with the rape class..

http://zeenews.india.com/photogallery/e ... genumber=1

[CRamS]

RudraJi,

I agree with your analysis, except to say that it is quite disingeneous for folks like DocJi and A_GuptaJi to claim that somehow US delaing with TSP is as weak as India's pussilanimous approach expemplified by the points you listed. A_GuptaJi even went on to claim (I am paraphrasing) post Mullen statement that at least MMS did not change tune within 24 hours as US did in approving aid to TSP immediatly after Mullen speak. I think the comparison with US approach is a side show. Its a waste of time. The fact remains, and I repeat, TSP remains a mortal threat to India.

[gakakkad]

ouchhhhh ..it hurts...it hurts......bliss to stop.....i am the super power....i have an h & d...its "disingeneous" to hurt it....ouchhh..

[harbans]

The west, very early, rejected subjective reality as being of little consequence.

Sorry but the Indics were the first to do so. It is highly stressed too. Too many instances of that in Doctrine. Just sort of surprised people still believe Indics believe in subjective and Westerners in the Objective..there has to be a major difference on how we perceive our own doctrine then. Better in such instances not to go by 'sway' opinions and understandings. Doctrine is deeper than that. Just that people scratch as much into their own selves as much into their own doctrines..exceptions to the rule apply.

[RajeshA]

Too much philosophy here! This thread is only about bombs and rage boys!

[shiv]

RudraJi,

I agree with your analysis, except to say that it is quite disingeneous for folks like DocJi and A_GuptaJi to claim that somehow US delaing with TSP is as weak as India's pussilanimous approach

Hey don't let that upset you. If its any consolation to you I would be the first to admit that the US is showing great strength in dealing with Pakistan. But the US is failing to make Pakistanis comply with US grievances. The effect of Indian pusillanimity and the effect of US strength are indistinguishable in changing the resolve of Pakistan. There is no evidence that I can see that tells me that the US method is any more effective than Indian weakness. The war of a thousand unmanned pinpricks against rural Waziristan is a big show being out up by a USA that is pretending to address the problem in the way India shoots unmanned postal dossiers at Pakistan. Only a profound sense of rah rah USA can make anyone believe that this kind of war is going to be effective. Heck why have that awesome firepower - 14 carriers etc if UAVs are going to win wars? LOL. Ultimately when it came to definitely getting one man - troops had to go in. I hope you are not suggesting that the US's "Powerful war of a thousand pricks" will actually harm Pakistan in any way? But if they are not going to harm Pakis in any way what is this "non weak and non pusillanimous" method that the US is touted to be using in dealing with Pakistan? Are you referring to powerful love? Extreme affection? Make Pakistan die of a broken heart?

It might hurt to see that the USA's military power is totally useless against Pakistan because US policy is a policy of pUSsyfooting and concessions. We really need to stop talking about the US's war of pinpricks which will not bring Pakistan down. That is why I prefer to talk about US aid to Pakistan which holds it up as much as Indian pusillanimity and the US war of a thousand pinpricks fail to bring down Pakistan. That is something that ought to be discussed in that US elections thread - I think a US election is due next 2-3 months or so - BRF already has a thread devoted to it. Just in time I guess.

[abhishek_sharma]

Tensions Flare as G.I.’s Take Fire Out of Pakistan: NYT

[rohitvats]

RudraJi,

I agree with your analysis, except to say that it is quite disingeneous for folks like DocJi and A_GuptaJi to claim that somehow US delaing with TSP is as weak as India's pussilanimous approach expemplified by the points you listed. A_GuptaJi even went on to claim (I am paraphrasing) post Mullen statement that at least MMS did not change tune within 24 hours as US did in approving aid to TSP immediatly after Mullen speak. I think the comparison with US approach is a side show. Its a waste of time. The fact remains, and I repeat, TSP remains a mortal threat to India.

Even though, as you say yourself, the comparison with US is a side show, you never fail to pontificate about the mighty US of A and how it has the pukes by their the scruff of their collar...

Coming to more pertinent point -

(a) India and Pakistan - SWORN ENEMIES. Pakistan all out to harm India interests. (CHECK)
(b) USA and Pakistan - allies in GWOT.USA--> military toys and money to Pakistan. Pakistan all out to harm US interests.

Pretty interesting, hain ji?

[A_Gupta]

There are two types of commentary here:
1) Dissing our government and society for not applying more effective methods
2) Pointing out more effective methods, as applied by other countries

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/com ... _wb_75.gif
Yes, but this is the "TSP" thread. Dissing the Indian gov, airing internal Indian politics, comparing India to a crone preaching the virtues of chastity, etc., learning from America belong in other threads that have been set up for those purposes.

PS: CRamS, if America is a sideshow, then keep it that way - no one brings up America here more than you.

The facts remain that

1. Mullen slammed Pakistan on Sept 22, 2011 in a hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee
2. The same or next day, the Senate Appropriations Committee voted to continue aid to Pakistan, though with conditions.
3. By September 28, 2011, after the weekend, the White House and the State Department were already backpedalling from Mullen's statements.

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/world ... bassy.html
[2] http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... c9b531112a
[3] http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/29/world ... istan.html

[Jarita]

Dawoods family..photo album...they seemed to have mixed well with the rape class..

http://zeenews.india.com/photogallery/e ... genumber=1

Done some plastic surgery too to fit right in

[arun]

Tensions Flare as G.I.’s Take Fire Out of Pakistan: NYT

Looks like the Obama Administration of the US has laid down a fatwa gagging US troops in Afghanistan from speaking on the record regards the support of the uniformed Jihadi’s of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for the un-uniformed Jihadi’s targeting US Forces in Afghanistan.

The US urge to protect its Major Non NATO Ally clearly remains significant and not above sacrificing the lives of some of its own troops.

[arun]

X Posted from the Islamism thread.

Mohammadden religious beliefs impede the vaccination effort to combat diphtheria in Indonesia. The Mohammadden population is questioning if the anti diphtheritic vaccine is halal:

Govt says religious beliefs hinder vaccination in E. Java

Not the first time that vaccination programmes have been adversely impacted for some or other reason related to the Mohammadden religion as in the below case from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan dating back to 2007 where polio vaccination was seen as a plot to sterilise Muslim children:

Polio cases jump in Pakistan as clerics declare vaccination an American plot

Not the second time either that vaccination programmes have been adversely impacted for some or other reason related to the Mohammadden religion as in the below case from the Muslim majority Northern part of Nigeria dating back to 2002 where vaccination was seen by a Mohammadden Cleric as Un-Islamic and religiously proscribed:

Immunisation is Un-Islamic – Cleric

The American newspaper, The Los Angeles Times, today reminds us that things have not changed in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and Mohammadden Clerics “ seed rumors that vaccines are un-Islamic because they are made from substances derived from pigs, or that they cause infertility. Some clerics try to convince parents that polio vaccines are made from the urine of Satan”:

Fearful Pakistanis spurn polio vaccines

[shravan]

Militants attack security personnel, kill nine in Khyber Agency

A security convoy came under attack by a group of armed militants near a check post in Bara Tehsil of Khyber Agency. Nine security personnel were killed and two injured, Express 24/7 reported on Monday.

[Amber G.]

abhishek_sharma

>>In any case, people stopped defending B. Raman very soon.

Assuming that by "people" you meant me, since you linked to my post "something very weird is going on" - that was not intended as critical of B. Raman's article. I have no view on that. Like I said B. Raman has done a lot for the country, and he knows what he is doing. So in that sense it was not a "defence" of B. Raman that I'm attempting, rather moderating on BRF to prevent nonsensical and unfounded allegations being taken as fact and the forum being undermined by that.

If by "people" you did not mean me, please ignore the above post.

JEM - Thanks very much for articulating this. B. Raman, as you said, is not the issue (though I must admit, equating him to some convicted criminal is beyond pale). The issue is what, BRF wants it to be.

Do we really want to be known as forum for starting a "behead for peace campaign ? (Thanks to some mods that the most offensive language has been edited - but not before this brought much disrepute even outside BRF, and the list still exists)?

Do we really want to be known as judging who is pure enough to post here and who is not? (see posts before Somnath's excellent swan song post – where many are proclaiming their judgment on how pure/impure some fellow posters in their judgement are, Link given before, please note that this was in TSP dhaga - presumably for them it was not an OT even for TSP dhaga )

Do we really want to be known as " Deaf-n-dumb forum with better grammer" as one internationally respected professor put it?

Do we really want to be known as a forum which, as a poster here said (with impunity):

...... with open criticism of the traitors in power. Let there be no one on this forum ever again who supports the INC.

(Note: I have never voted for INC, but the above post which appeared in this TSP dhaga no less, makes even me disgusted, but I have noticed that there was not much criticism by others)

Do we really want to be known as a forum where a clique reveres postings like “US First lady’s reason to visit India is to learn sex-working tips” (No, no exaggeration but actual postings – one brf-admin actually proclaims that this poster “usually is” right in his conspiracy theories) but anyone who find such posting distasteful, and says so, is *warned* for disrupting the forum.

Do we really want to be known as a forum where a historic picture and a news item with a link, where message is self-evident, is taken as an excuse to launch a volley of posts, personal attacks and rebukes, branding me and my motive as “may not be a traitor but..” or “American – rakshak” (by a moderator, no less)…knowing fully well that any attempt of a honest response/debae will be an excuse for more personal attacks and lathicharges?

Yes, it will be very easy to mock, attack, and even do a lathi-charge but it will require more courage and wisdom to live up to the mission of BRF which it clearly states on it’s webpage.

As a brf-oldie who has been with the forum for last 14-15 years it makes me very sad that a truly great forum is now being reduced to a small vocal clique where any diverse view point gets attacked, conspiracy theories run amok, fellow brfites are not treated with respect, and even scientific/technical and educational posts are object of a lathi charge because seemingly scientifically ignorant people think that those posts are an affront to their and their supporters h&d. /sigh/

Respectfully submitted.
Jai Hind.

[Amber G.]

interesting how posting a few pics of muj in WH led the america rakshaks to take offence and come running to protect the H&D of amrika by a cheap ==.

Rahulji - Interesting that you are branding me 'america rakshak.' that's ok, but, no my friend, this is not cheap = = but rather something we should think about.

In my opinion the pics of mju in WH carried a deep meaning. It was disgraceful (in my opinion) for WH to host the scums (which America should have known then that they were not its friends but scums). Though this happened in 80's I was one of the people who told WH then that it was disgraceful.

ABV hosting Mush (post Kargil - who murdered our soldiers) was not helpful either.

But discussion of JS taking mithai and hugging the scums who slaughtered one of the passengers by a box cutter, was not, to put it mildly, a "cheap = = " to protect H&D but something for every citizen to notice and learn from. Negotiating with hostages was bad enough, (in my opinion) but treating them with mithais and hugs did not even help in saving any life. I had a talk with one officer, who put his life on the line at the time of 26/11, who had interrogated Kasab, he did not hug or carried mithai to him. I don't know if you know this, but from later investigations it was clear that those scums were involved in many other acts of terrorisms.

I have a deep respect for JS, I do not question his motives, but one can criticize the acts of a person of a government.

What troubles me, that other Indian leaders like MMS are vilified with venom in this great forum. I asked a question what would have happened if instead of JS it was Krishna...Thanks for answering that question without answering that question.

Hope this is helpful. Regards.

[putnanja]

But discussion of JS taking mithai and hugging the scums who slaughtered one of the passengers by a box cutter,

Can you please provide links to substantiate your claims that JS took sweets and hugged the terrorists?

[Agnimitra]

X-posting from Iran thread:
Iranian border patrols kill 6 "miscreants" crossing over from Pakistan

Occurred on the Balochistan border. Lots of drugs, and an arms cache were recovered. Pakis and some poor Afghans are primary drug peddlars in Iran. Interesting that arms were involved too.