India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 19 Oct 2011 09:40

Rafale to taste first export order

France in final talks on UAE Rafale sale

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Oct 2011 09:59

I saw a dream last night....dusk had fallen in tibet and big PLA convoy was on the march..suddenly the night is shaken by two explosions one in the rear and one in the tip as four AASM500 fired from 25km away @ 25kft explode....then a lone dark grey rafale (partner of the aasm shooter) creeps up from behind and descends to 75ft @ 700kmph using tfr mode....flying from the tail to the head of the column it unleashes a long cloud of CBU bomblets in a blur of motion before climbing up at 45' fast on dry thrust along the ongoing road to avoid the mobile SAM unit it just overflew at tail of the convoy.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 21 Oct 2011 20:41

"But analysts noted that canceling the orders could involve costly penalty payments for Berlin unless it managed to find alternative buyers for the equipment it no longer wants.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/busin ... l?src=recg

Lemme see, Germany is trying to sell us stuff it does not want, This is going to drive up unit costs unless the cancellation penalties are factored into the EF2K price.

This is going to a big problem with the euros. I can already see the sticker shock and awe compounded by political questions regarding why we should buy something the manufacturing countries are canceling.

Added later: what does this mean for R&D going forward?

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 21 Oct 2011 23:18

Thank you Cosmo_R for that strong pro Rafale post.

Good day all, Tay.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Oct 2011 02:44

If it is Rafale, then might as well bump up the order for 200 MRCAs, and cancel the M2K upgrades.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 22 Oct 2011 05:46

Taygibay wrote:Thank you Cosmo_R for that strong pro Rafale post.

Seems more like a strong pro SH post to me

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 22 Oct 2011 10:35

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Taygibay wrote:Thank you Cosmo_R for that strong pro Rafale post.
Seems more like a strong pro SH post to me

Repeat after me. SH has been eliminated by the IAF.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 22 Oct 2011 10:52

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Oct 2011 12:10

I agree with Saik.The M-2000 upgrades coul'dve been done domestically,perhaps with legendary Israeli help.After all they reverse-engineered the Mirage-3,after stealing the blueprints from the Swiss,developed the Kfir from it,and assisted in a LUSH job for the Sea Harriers. We could've easily saved half the cost of what we're spending,that too for all to be upgraded only by 2019! It makes little sense as by that time,for a little more money,we will have started to induct the FGFA too as well as whichever bird we choose for the MMRCA.The M-2000 upgrade is the most expensive flying "white elephant" and the upgraded bird should be named after that famous Disney character,"Dumbo"!

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 22 Oct 2011 21:28

I think you gentlemen misunderstand my concerns which I've stated before: I'm simply worried that after all this hoo haa, the IAF is going to wind up with more SU30s (super stealth version of course) and the Russians will laugh all the way to the bank.

I just wish they get ion with it.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 23 Oct 2011 00:04

Then worry some more poor Cosmo :

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensen ... A%20winner

Sighs ...

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 23 Oct 2011 02:55

Taygibay wrote:Then worry some more poor Cosmo :

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defensen ... A%20winner

Sighs ...

" Even after the final winner is announced, it is still touch and go”, said an industry source to Defenseworld.net. “There is no finality that the lowest bidder will get the deal if India’s Finance Ministry which holds the purse strings objects to any part of the financial commitment. The Euro value rise will be an important element to discuss as a 15%-18% rise in the last 18 months means that order price has increased by over a billion Euros”

MOF will throw a spaniard

in the works.

It ain't over until it's over and the fat lady sings (Yogi Berra)

We'll be discussing the JSF next as the MMRCA

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 23 Oct 2011 03:41

I agree with Philip and SaiK as well. The M2000 upgrade was one of the most retarded decisions that I have seen in a while. The upgrade probably could have been done for under a billion dollars with Israeli help and the $2 Billion saved could have been put into either AMCA development or provided as some sort of competitive R&D programme for the private industry.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 23 Oct 2011 07:41

<del>

MarcH · Post by **MarcH** » 23 Oct 2011 14:52

Why so negative ? IAF wants Rafale, orders M2K update with huge weapons package and huge budget to include equipment usefull for Rafale. IAF stresses the synergy and simplified logistics of Rafale <->M2K. Finance ministry follows that argumentation and IAF finally gets a new toy.

Kovy · Post by **Kovy** » 23 Oct 2011 18:48

I agree with Philip and SaiK as well. The M2000 upgrade was one of the most retarded decisions that I have seen in a while. The upgrade probably could have been done for under a billion dollars with Israeli help and the $2 Billion saved could have been put into either AMCA development or provided as some sort of competitive R&D programme for the private industry.

I see it this way :
The Mirage 2000 will be given a new life potential of 20-25 years so it's like getting new airframes in addition to all the avionics upgrades.
Then, you will have around 200 french Air force Mirage 2000 that will be retired during the next 2 decades. You can bet that the IAF will not miss the opportunity to get the French spare parts stock for a symbolic price as they did for the Jaguar. At the end of the day, the IAF will have a very modern, cheap to maintain and fly Mirage 2000. Not a bad move IMHO.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 23 Oct 2011 19:21

i agree with MarcH, if the Rafale is to be chosen as MMRCA
then the M2k upgrade makes sense. I took it as a good omen.

Commonality will bring down the price of the upgrade over time.

IF the MMRCA goes to the Typhoon however, the adaptation
could have gone to the Israëlis as mentioned.
Do remember however that upgrades can be tricky. In this case,
if the RDY-3, night vision cockpit and JTIDS[-link 16?] are known
variables, the number of MICAs is unknown as is the EWS part.
Still IF the E-warfare suite is designed to accompany the SPECTRA
one found in the Rafale, it is a major piece of work.

But in all truth, the culprit is India itself here.
Granted that Dassault's industrial policy of terminating the Mirage 2000
played a big role in hiking the upgrade cost.
This being said, Would the MMRCA have been decided
when it was supposed to, Would the TEJAS have been there on
time With all performances as planned, that upgrade Could have been skipped.

Here, a link to same PoV :
http://blogs.defenceaviation.com/aoa/mirageupgrade.html

So I am sorry to have to say so but when India learns to compute
time factoring in its military planning, it will save a lot of rupees.
If it can serve as solace, your country is by far not the only one
to have missed that way and paid for it.

BTW, is not the bid opening late already or did it just not come out yet?

Good day all, Tay.

P.S. As additional documentation, this :

Based on the integration of latest generation equipment and systems, the upgrade will further enhance the technical-operational capabilities of the Indian Air Force’s Mirage 2000. The aircraft represents a long tradition of cooperation with French military aviation, initiated 50 years ago.

The extensive involvement of Indian industry within the programme will consolidate existing ties with the French aerospace industry and will reinforce long-term cooperation based on cutting edge technologies and the sharing of technical know-how and expertise.

from here :
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/avi ... 8328870e9f

also indicates that ToT is part of the deal and THAT has a price.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Oct 2011 20:00

Singha wrote:I saw a dream last night....dusk had fallen in tibet and big PLA convoy was on the march..suddenly the night is shaken by two explosions one in the rear and one in the tip as four AASM500 fired from 25km away @ 25kft explode....then a lone dark grey rafale (partner of the aasm shooter) creeps up from behind and descends to 75ft @ 700kmph using tfr mode....flying from the tail to the head of the column it unleashes a long cloud of CBU bomblets in a blur of motion before climbing up at 45' fast on dry thrust along the ongoing road to avoid the mobile SAM unit it just overflew at tail of the convoy.

Singha,

Funny I had a similar dream, except, in mine, the pair of Rafaels stood at stand off ranges and each delivered 24 ALNAGs ATGMS from a range of 15 Kms. Killing a regiment worth of tanks. While leaving other vehicles for a section of 27s approaching at low altitude.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 23 Oct 2011 23:39

Pratyush my friend : RAFALE

Rafael is an Israëli company ( or a Spanish tennis player ).

And the AASM can be delivered at 50-60kms?
So ALNAGS, really?

Rafael :

^^^well known product of theirs

Rafael :

Nadal & well known "product" of his

and RAFALE :

and well known products of it, the last pic straight from Kovy's authoritative blog :

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Oct 2011 09:28

^^^

The spelling Nazies of BRF. They don't even let one dream of Indian Weapons on any platform.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Oct 2011 10:46

welcome Tay to our spelling jihad for rafale !

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 24 Oct 2011 15:08

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Internal report of EADS on Future Fighter aircraft market after 2020 shows , Rafale production ending by 2019 with out export orders and AMCA entering service by 2025 and FGFA by 2018-19

Will · Post by **Will** » 24 Oct 2011 19:43

Everyone seems to be busy gathering baksas,lifafas and dhabas for diwali. When will they open the MMRCA lifafa?

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 24 Oct 2011 20:51

now we know onleee...in the image the AMCA's shape is just like SH

just as strange as the SR-71 shaped planes used in the akash site. everything khan shape onlee...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Oct 2011 21:12

does the Rafale/EF mount unguided rockets of the type Mig27 and Jags use? I am thinking we are not angrez to afford a ATGM or AASM against any of the 1000s of small targets of opportunity...so a cheap dal-roti soln is a must. any guided weapon is too expensive for this. if such a weapon is not present, maybe atleast increase the cannon rounds to 750 so that a few meaty gun runs can be done?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 24 Oct 2011 23:33

India to Open the 126-plus Combat Jet Tenders in November
..:: India Strategic ::..

India to Open the 126-plus Combat Jet Tenders in November
By our Special Representative
Published : October 2011

New Delhi. India will open the tenders for the world’s single biggest combat deal yet for 126 to 189 combat jets in the first week of November.

Reliable sources told India Strategic that most likely, the tender should be opened on November 4.

Representatives of the two finalists in the fray, French Rafale International and European consortium Cassidian Eurofighter would be invited and their own bids, submitted earlier, would be opened in their presence. Senior officials of the Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials would be present on the occasion.

India had floated the tender for what it called Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in 2007 to replace the ageing Soviet vintage aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF). Four other competitors, US Lockheed Martin F 16 and Boeing Super Hornet F/A 18, Russian Mig 35 and Swedish Saab Gripen did not make it in the technical flight and weapon evaluation tests.

IAF sources have said that all the aircraft were good but that it was a question of scoring maximum points in the evaluation trials mandated by the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs). And the Eurofighter and Rafale got the maximum points.

Notably, the lower bid in the tender may not determine the winner unless there is a substantial difference in the offering made by the two European companies.

There would be associated costs in terms of spares and support over two years as part of the tender as well as for maintaining the aircraft over a lifetime of 6000 hours of flying or 40 years. Transfer of Technology and offsets to the extent of 50 percent of the final costs would also be taken into consideration.

It should take a couple of months to declare the winner, sources told India Strategic.

The cost of the jet deal could range above US$ 15 billion, depending upon the numbers.

© India Strategic

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 24 Oct 2011 23:54

Very nice rafale piture there with 6000L of external fuel and two cruise missles

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Oct 2011 01:09

karan_mc wrote:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Internal report of EADS on Future Fighter aircraft market after 2020 shows , Rafale production ending by 2019 with out export orders and AMCA entering service by 2025 and FGFA by 2018-19

I'd take a company presentation like this with a huge fistful of salt. We've seen SAAB prepared slides that show a different spin on 'generations' of aircraft, and now this. What is clear is that companies tailor their presentations to make themselves look better. Only politicians or procurement officials without adequate knowledge of what's happening around the world will be swayed by such stuff.

Considering the speed at which the main Typhoon partners (Germany, UK, Italy) are racing to cut their own orders of the jet, without export sales, it's very likely that its own production may end earlier than expected. Rafale has 3 other big export possibilities in UAE, Brazil and Switzerland which makes it overall prospects far brighter than those of the Typhoon which has just 1 currently - a possible Saudi follow-on order..India is a tie between both of them. Japan is very unlikely to go for a Typhoon considering the links it has with the US and Turkey haven't expressed firm interest as yet and may more likely go for its own indigenous fighter. South Korea's order is also likely to go to the F-15SE or F-35C and not a Typhoon, even though they're offering 65% production of the Ej-200 engine to Samsung Techwin if it is selected.

What is very interesting about the AMCA numbers they foretell is that they may view the AMCA as a possible project on which they could collaborate with India by offering deep ToT on the MMRCA and developing partnerships with Indian firms which may get work on AMCA. If they think that 200 AMCA's will be eventually built and acquired by the IAF, then there is plenty of business potential there for them. I personally don't think that ADA/HAL will achieve the AMCA's anticipated timelines without a foreign partner who can overcome some of the technological hurdles that we are sure to face. I hope the end-2011 goal of finalising the AMCA's project's scope, timelines and funding is at least met. If that cannot be met by ADA, then there is little hope of anything else being on time and within budget.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 25 Oct 2011 01:26

From India Today.

In a crucial milestone for India's "mother of all deals" - its prolonged $12-billion effort to acquire 126 fighter jets - the Defence Ministry will open the commercial bids of the two finalists on November 4 at South Block.

France's Dassault Aviation and the European EADS were informed this week that their representatives would be required to be present when their bids (for the Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon respectively) are opened by a Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC).

Representatives of both firms will need to authenticate the confidential sealed envelopes containing their bids, before they are opened for the final comparison.

Following procedure, the final bids will be compared to a benchmark price - a reasonable, acceptable price for the contract - before adjudging the lowest bidder from the two. For both companies, the stakes are enormously high.

At $12-billion, and the near certainty that the final contract will be for a significantly larger sum, the IAF's MMRCA is quite simply the largest active acquisition of aircraft in recent memory, and one that both final contenders have invested millions in pitching for.

The Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale are by far the costliest jets in the reckoning, and with both fighting a two-horse race to the finish line, India will be committed to spending a colossal sum of money on the acquisition.

In April this year, as earlier reported by Headlines Today, four other contenders were eliminated from the competition in a shock setback for the companies involved.

Those who were dropped from the reckoning included Sweden's Saab (Gripen), US firms Boeing and Lockheed-Martin with the F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 Super Viper respectively, and India's largest defence supplier Russia with its MiG-35.

Interestingly, the four eliminated companies remain in India, firm in the belief that the cost of their rivals in the finals make this make-or-break situation swing either way.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 25 Oct 2011 03:37

If they think that 200 AMCA's will be eventually built and acquired by the IAF, then there is plenty of business potential there for them. I personally don't think that ADA/HAL will achieve the AMCA's anticipated timelines without a foreign partner who can overcome some of the technological hurdles that we are sure to face. I hope the end-2011 goal of finalising the AMCA's project's scope, timelines and funding is at least met. If that cannot be met by ADA, then there is little hope of anything else being on time and within budget.

Sigh, my brother, you sound like life thought you to be careful!
That sentence in green is a bad omen that cannot be avoided ...
so many chances are that it may come through.

Let me turn to the first two then and picture this.
The Raffy having won the MMRCA, Rafale International and HAL,
http://www.ada.gov.in/ &

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/aviation.html?L=1

( BTW Dassault systems partners with ADA lol : *
http://www.3ds.com/fr/partners/plm-solu ... aae65a608d )

there having been discussions in fora about a "stealth" Rafale,
an evolution. I have never been a staunch believer in that
one for lacks of sources but mainly because the extent of the
projected changes amount to a new plane, a different one.
Could both programs ( AMCA ) merge? Tadadam! LOL

More seriously, an influx from Dassault/Thales/Snecma and
into AMCA and a place for India in the successor to the nEUROn

Just picture T-50s and Rafales and AMCA ** leading up to three of
these future UCAV into a strike or say, Panda territory

India is at a difficult part of the path for the Neighbor's menace.
Crippling the immediate surroundings is a necessity and that
UCAV with extended commonality in IAF would be quite a weapon.

Just a thought :

( In all truth it could work for the other plane too
with a future Taranis but it would not look as nice. )

Good night all, Tay.
* Then again it seems a popular name in India :

http://www.adaindia.net/contactus.aspx

and of course Reliance ADA and the rice.
It had me wondering about its frequency,
does it sound particularly good to the Indian
ear, can someone venture an opinion?

** Possibly the M2000s too.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 25 Oct 2011 06:54

^^^^
The picture is awesome. Hope we see this reality unfold before our very own eyes.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2011 07:32

well, stealthy missile carrying housings for the rafale and arranging for EF style conformal housings for meteor should be done imo. secondly the edges of body panels like the undercarriage doors and canopy could be made sawtooth if that helps. these are superficial changes that would not touch the 'core' airframe or affect the aerodynamics. the new engines with higher thrust might reduce the IR signature as they will need to run at less thrust setting(?).

and lastly, a growler version of Rafale loaded to the gunwales with offensive electronic gear and upto 8 new Mica-ARM missiles would be a useful add. using two wing fuel tanks and CFTs it would be able to loiter for long.

CFTs are a must.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 25 Oct 2011 09:59

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 25 Oct 2011 14:51

No, no Singha-ji. Lets hope we get the Eurofighter

. Its a much more capable platform in the air-air arena.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 25 Oct 2011 15:29

happy diwali,happy diwali,happy diwali,
to all br-fites happy diwali that also dil se truly,
congress gov jaldi kholo nov 4 ko mmrca ke bids ka dabba,
but better be careful these are not dry fruits,
kahi lag na jaye bofors jaisa dhabba,
bcoz its the biggest ever defence deal,
which u got to seal,
graft graft chillaye team anna,
rahna tum isiliye chaukanna,
weapons and sensor package dek kar hi decision karna,
eurofighter consortium ke marketing ke chakkar me mat parna,
sojh samaj ke karo kaam kaj,
apke hatho me hai IAF ki laaj,
Meteor,Irst,spectra,pirate pukare br-fites ka man,
ab Captor-E ,RBE2-AA AESA kahake proud hoye watan,
over ten billion dollar ka hai mamla,
chinEsE and pakis can anytime do hamla,
ho j-20 black eagle ya ho j-10,
na ab kisi se haado,
MMRCA CONUNDRUM KO solve KARO,
aur dushman par bhari paro....................
HAPPY DIWALi

absurd poem, but hav a badiya diwali
JAI HIND

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 25 Oct 2011 21:26

^^^^
Amen to your poem saptarishi, I also hope that MMRCA does not go down the same path as bofors did. A good/fantastic gun, which got caught in the cross fire of politics. We need these fighters and we need them badly.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 25 Oct 2011 21:37

Huh, Singha, not only does present Raffy uses saw-tooth like a big boy
without hurting itself, the transforms you list still make it a different plane.

Look here :

For most people, that is the pic/image that started the Rafale Stealth buzz ....

however, a long while ago this was found in a German magazine :
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5670 ... alth21.jpg

Now if we compare those images, we find the older one to be a rough estimate
of how to take the Rafale "formula" or design concept into stealth territory.
More complete in scope as a finite object and a new plane of course.

The Rafale in the color pic is supposedly a face-lift of sorts with "minor" details
to be changed but look at it some more : the rear section has widened considerably
which changes the plane's sustentation a lot good or bad, supposedly good since the
wings are smaller having been shaved off at the rear to acquire a higher dihedral,
both as a stealth function and to free the dual inclined rudders. The canards appear
to have been reduced in sizePods appear at the
wingtips, where Dassault usually locates small missiles and it is not clear that for
all their flat sides those are much less responsive to radar than a small MICA

One supposes the pods are SPECTRA or other EW units thus sending the MICAs where?
If they are in the underwing pods, very little stealth from the cell redesign remains.
As seen here :

The front Rafale has Micas wingtips and underwings the rear one bears Scalps which
ressembles those pods actually. Which is "stealthier" ? The one with the supersonic tanks.
So for what it brings that's a lot of changes that impact the plane's aerodynamic formula
and again constitutes a practically new plane.

Here is a more interesting idea from a French "forumer" of talent :

Almost the same work, still that wider cell to make space for ventral internal weapons
bay(s), same dual fins and pods by the wingtips but those are finer and show SPECTRA
apertures. The rest of the plane looks untouched but intakes might have a stealth design.
The wider cell remains, the twin rudders interaction with the wing airflows remain but the
plane's general aerodynamic formula is preserved.. and yes that is a evolution although
it also includes air ducts redesign. Still a lot of work.

The essential point is that if you want that much change, all exterior loads should be
forgotten or almost. Look at an F-117 or even this :
clean with bay open

or ladden with a single pair of AMRAAMs

See the difference? The T-50/FGFA should be clean but the other planes in IAF
inventory do not NEED to be but cleaner than this :

or if you want to compare :

and

Not far away, the Raffy having its MICAs at wing tips.
True the Lighting two may hold a pair of bombs but first day strikes
will be cruise missile stuff so both will have them underwing anyhow.

It thus all hinges on the intent over AMCA, if it is to be an F-35 like AC
co-development of a stealth Rafale may well do the trick but if it is to
go further then it may not.

If you only ask for weapons pods and CFTs, the former should be done
by Dassault which had mock-ups done to test the flight envelope but heck,
why would India not develop the carrying pods itself

Sawtooth are there already from the air inlets

to the rear end

On the elevons/flaps and underbelly twice.
All over in fact :

Rafale did autonomous SEAD/DEAD in Libya and could have EW added.
As for MICAs, with all points opened, it could go thus :

... up to 8 you said, lol, just lacking ARM version development.

In closing, as for that from Juggi :

No, no Singha-ji. Lets hope we get the Eurofighter . Its a much more capable platform in the air-air arena.

yeah well as evidenced in Corsica and Al-Dhafra, that's not clear!

Good day all, Tay.

P.S. : If you appreciated that ultra-MICA image, here's one more from the same Kovy
that now joined us :

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2011 21:48

gee I didnt know rafale had that sawtooth thing all over.

with the IAF chief announcing recently that bulk of PAKFA deal will be the Russian model single seater our tip of spear a2a is taken care of....deliveries could likely start 2018 with HAL and Sukhoi both establishing production lines in parallel, its makes sense for MRCA selection to be more strike oriented while retaining a powerful a2a capability as a 2nd line behind the PAKFA/super30.

and we know who's more proven there...

Will · Post by **Will** » 26 Oct 2011 18:22

Well seems like the "calculations" of real cost will take a month or so after the bids are opened. One thing for sure the EF consortium is not going to make the mistakes they did during the LCA engine deal

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 26 Oct 2011 22:45

and we know who's more proven there...

Oh, Yes yes yes

!