Indian Military Aviation

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 25 Oct 2011 07:23

21 More Hawks for IAF's Surya Kiran Aerobatics Display Team

21 More Hawks for IAF's Surya Kiran Aerobatics Display Team
Ajai Shukla
Hal Bangalore
October 25, 2011

The addition is to replace the vintage Kiran Mark II trainer aircraft and help SKAT fly faster.

The Indian Air Force’s vaunted aerobatics display team, the Surya Kiran Aerobatics Team (SKAT), could soon be enthralling spectators with cutting-edge aircraft. The IAF has initiated the procurement of 21 additional Hawk aircraft, built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bangalore. Hawk advanced jet trainers would allow SKAT to fly faster, turn tighter and manoeuvre more spectacularly, than was possible with the vintage Kiran Mark II trainer aircraft that they have flown since 1996.

With the additional Hawk procurement underway, HAL chief, Ashok Nayak told Business Standard that HAL would build another 21 Hawks as soon as it completes the 123 aircraft, ordered by the IAF and the Indian Navy. “The IAF has initiated the follow-on procurement of 21 additional Hawks from BAE Systems. These are mainly for its aerobatics team, but also to replace the couple of Hawks that have been lost in crashes,” says Ashok Nayak, the HAL Chairman. The SKAT, highly regarded despite the old aircraft it performs in, is one of the few aerobatics teams that fly nine aircraft in close formation. To stage its heavy and technically demanding routine of nine-aircraft performances, the SKAT is authorised 18-19 aircraft.

The only other military aerobatics teams that fly nine-aircraft formations are the UK Royal Air Force’s Red Arrows, which also fly the Hawk; and the Snowbirds, from the Royal Canadian Air Force. Other aerobatics teams perform with fewer aircraft. The Thunder Birds (US Air Force), with six aircraft; Blue Angels (US Navy), with six aircraft; the August 1st Aerobatics Team (China’s People’s Liberation Army Air Force, or PLAAF), with six aircraft; and the Patrouille de France (French Air Force), with eight aircraft. The Russian Knights (Russian Air Force) have flown varying numbers of aircraft, but never nine.

For the pilots of SKAT, the transition to Hawks represents a generational shift. Before SKAT was formed with the Kiran Mark II in 1996, another IAF aerobatics team, “The Thunderbolts”, flew the Hawker Hunter fighter. The Thunderbolts, too, performed nine-aircraft routines. Besides the advantages of switching to the Hawk, the withdrawal of the Kiran Mark II from SKAT is driven by another pressing reason: the IAF’s shortage of trainer aircraft. The entire IAF fleet of HPT-32 Deepak basic trainers has been grounded since July 09, after 19 pilots died in 17 Deepak crashes over the years. Today, IAF rookies are herded for their first flying lessons into the relatively complex Kiran Mark I aircraft. For the next stage of intermediate training the IAF requires all the Kiran Mark IIs that it can muster. In the circumstances, maintaining an entire squadron (the SKAT team comprises the IAF’s No 52 squadron) for aerobatics seemed unjustifiable.

But, given SKAT’s glamour quotient, the IAF is keen to get it back in the air. Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne has demanded the team starts performing again in their new Hawks within three years.

Going by HAL’s projections, that seems unachievable. HAL is projected to finish building IAF’s first order of 66 Hawks (contracted in 2004 for Rs 6,600 crore) by mid-2012. Thereafter, 57 more Hawks have to be manufactured for the IAF and the Indian Navy as per a Rs 5,500 crore contract signed last year.

“Next year we will build 13-14 Hawks; and then step up production to 19 Hawks from 2013 onwards. That means 57 Hawks will be delivered by late 2015. Then we can build 21 more Hawks by the end of 2016,” says Nayak.

For the struggling UK aerospace industry, that opens an intriguing prospect: will the IAF insist on building its latest order of 21 Hawks in the UK, arguing a pressing need to get the SKAT performing again? Industry sources say, given the recent budget cuts in the British aerospace industry, this would be a welcome proposal.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2011 07:26

the saab2000 is the same a/c used for the Paki ereyie system. its out of production but apparently saab had enough semi finished airframes to fulfill that one, this must be a play to get a bigger order and restart production. it was touted as having one of the fastest ever climb rates to operating altitude of any turboprop.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 25 Oct 2011 07:38

Singha wrote:the saab2000 is the same a/c used for the Paki ereyie system. its out of production but apparently saab had enough semi finished airframes to fulfill that one, this must be a play to get a bigger order and restart production. it was touted as having one of the fastest ever climb rates to operating altitude of any turboprop.

All these "offers" are basically desperate attempts by European/American defense companies to get whatever business they can get to ride over the current economy.. we will probably end up having the most diverse set of defense equipment in next 10 years.. !! Cant really feel happy about it..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2011 07:39

I think it belongs in same league as the Merlin for siachen ops offer. lots of unsolicited love letters (some written in pigeons blood) do reach any decent girls hostel on campus daily.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Oct 2011 07:40

meaning the IJT has gone completely off the radar. increasingly agreeing with tarmak that nayak's term at HAL has been a disaster.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Oct 2011 09:34

^^^What gives? We need those IJT ASAP before IAF starts stage II also on Hawks because of Kiran MKII running out.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Oct 2011 10:00

original plan was to get IJT for SKAT. the first inductions were supposed to go to SKAT on a priority basis. that the plan has been scrapped means IJT is floundering.

it's a retrograde step for the nation to have its aerobatics team perform on videsi aircraft.
you can't imagine the surprise and sudden pride people felt on learning that the kiran was an Indian aircraft after watching SKAT do its routine. unfortunately after this SKAT will be another red arrows wannabe to many uninformed viewers. even the colours are similar.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Oct 2011 13:22

But what has happened to the IJT development? When is it expected?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Oct 2011 13:23

iirc IJT was supposed to attain IOC this July.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2011 16:00

According to RIAN US AH-64D has won the heavy attack helicopter competition , this is big new

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2011 16:02

Experts told the reasons for loss of the Mi-28N in the Indian tender

Thus, he commented on a message stating that the Russian Mi-28N "Night Hunter" was eliminated from the competition to supply the Indian Army 22 combat helicopters, losing to the U.S. AH-64D "Apache" Company "Boeing." This was reported by RIA Novosti on Tuesday informed source close to the commission on procurement of weapons for the Indian Ministry of Defence.

"The reasons for the refusal of the Mi-28 were of a technical nature. According to our experts, the Mi-28N does not meet the requirements of the tender on 20 counts, unlike helicopters" Apache ", which showed the best characteristics" - said the source.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 25 Oct 2011 18:21

IAF UNDERTAKES EXTENSIVE SEARCH AND RESCUE EFFORT FOR THE MISSING MIG-29 AIRCRAFT

New Delhi : October 25, 2011

A massive search operation has been launched by the IAF to search for the missing Mig-29 aircraft and its pilot Sqn Ldr DS Tomar that crashed on the night of 18 Oct 11 in the mountainous area of Lahaul Spiti in Himachal Pradesh. Till date 132 sorties have been flown towards search and rescue (SAR) operations. Considering the remote, high altitude treacherous snow clad mountainous region at elevations extending from 15000 ft to 20000 ft above mean sea level and the fact that no radio call was received from the pilot of the missing aircraft has made the search effort very demanding. All available data including that from other aircraft flying in the area, inputs from the formation leader, data on his aircraft as well as reports from civil police received through villagers in the area were collated to ascertain the probable crash site.

While analysing the data, a coherent plan for mounting SAR operations was conceptualised and the search aircraft were airborne on the first light on 19 Oct. Within first 24 hours a total of 22 sorties were mounted that flew over 41 hours. These included SU-30, Jaguar, RPA, Cheetah, Cheetal and An-32 aircraft which searched the probable areas by high tech electro optical eqpt and visual means covering wide extensive search for wreckage and deep intensive search to locate the missing pilot. The search patterns were planned for each type of sensor employed depending on the height and time of the day. The data collected from these are being analysed by specialist in imagery interpretation. Team of these specialists are constantly at work since the occurrence on 18 Oct. The National Remote Sensing Agency (NRSA) has been approached to make available data of the probable search area that may have been covered by any of the satellites. This effort was important as no radio call was received from the crashed aircraft and early sighting of the missing pilot and the ac wreckage was important.

On subsequent days similar search effort by air were launched maintaining the tempo and refining the search based on inputs received from data collected the previous day. The effort was augmented by the ground search parties of air warriors and Indian Army. The aircraft involved in search are being launched from Leh, Udhampur, Jammu, Bareilly etc where the specialised equipment is located to cover the large area of search in the mountains.

Alongside search by air, ground parties were airlifted with specially trained and acclimatised troops. Gp Capt PK Sharma VM was assigned the Task Force Commander for the search effort ex ‘Kelylong’ in ‘Lahaul’ area. ‘Thirot’ village Sarpanch with help of villagers brought a few wreckage components which were identified to be that of MiG-29 aircraft. However the entire area came under fresh snow following a spell of bad weather.

Even though the combat Exercise has got over, the HQ WAC has remained focused to the task of SAR which is being undertaken on a war footing. The Ladakh Scouts and other elements of Indian Army, the air warriors of IAF mountaineering team are being utilised for the ground search effort. IAF has also employed local mountaineers who are best suited for undertaking search operations in the snowbound, high altitude regions for extended period.

The aviation accident experts who have flown over the area are of the opinion that the ground party is likely to be most effective since the aircraft may have disintegrated after the impact and the debris is spread across the slopes on either side of the ridge line. Nothing can be said with certainty at this stage until the crash site is conclusively identified and flight data recorder (black box) is recovered and analysed.

Since the time of the occurrence, IAF authorities are in constant touch with the family of the missing pilot providing them inputs on the progress of the search and rescue effort.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 25 Oct 2011 19:18

I pray and hope that the pilot is found asap and may this Diwali be a glowing one for the family. Amen.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2011 19:44

+ one to that.

But for every hour that passes, hope fades. One is filled with doubt regarding a positive outcome.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Oct 2011 22:17

http://idrw.org/?p=4811#more-4811
Folks is it a ship in the background in this pic and is it IAC1 ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2011 22:32

Rahul M wrote:it's a retrograde step for the nation to have its aerobatics team perform on videsi aircraft.

Agreed these aerobatics team not only perform great display in the air but also encourage young to join to force and is a great advertisement for country aviation industry.

Choosing hawk as succession to Kiran is a retrograde step could have been best avoided , hope the SKAT don't end up being recognised all over as Red Arrow Jr.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Oct 2011 22:38

there is no choice

Its not the aircraft

its the engine. and once the IJT went with a new engine - there was no choice

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 25 Oct 2011 22:39

^^I don't get it. What is wrong with the AL-55?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Oct 2011 22:42

its new

all aerobatic teams abuse the hell out of the engine.

so they need a engine which is proven as they slam back and forth.

For them to wait to feel confident in IJT\new engine will take a long time

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Oct 2011 01:33

Surya, that doesn't explain why the IJT hasn't yet entered service despite having had a good head start initially..the AL-55 engine was one of the major causes of delay initially and then issues related to spin..but the lack of progress is startling really. It really doesn't portend well for the Tejas' FOC timelines either. The seeming lack of accountability and constant delays is really becoming unbearable now. I can only imagine how bad it must be for the IAF and IN.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 26 Oct 2011 03:14

Army Screens GPS Records After Chopper Lands in PoK

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 26 Oct 2011 03:29

Kartik

no idea about why IJT is delayed

I was only explaining what my SKAT friends told me sometime back - no way IJT can be the SKAT plane in the near future even if it was on time and delivered.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Oct 2011 06:00

makes sense.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Oct 2011 07:11

One possible explanation about the IJT is that the recent accident will have to be investigated fully and the flight certification agency need to declare it fit to fly again - assuming it's not flying. I did not exactly follow the nuance that Air Marshal Rajkumar told me in a conversation I had, but he was comparing India's bureaucratic flight certification set up with that of Australia. The set up in Australia allows companies to move forward faster with test flying even after a flight accident. Which is why things like the NM-5 could be flown real quick while planes like the Saras and perhaps now the IJT are delayed interminably.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 26 Oct 2011 17:18

suryag wrote:http://idrw.org/?p=4811#more-4811
Folks is it a ship in the background in this pic and is it IAC1 ?

thats one of the PROJECT 15a KOLKATA class destroyers,being constructed at mazgaon dock shipyard

Will · Post by **Will** » 26 Oct 2011 23:43

Yea the roof of the bulding in front makes it look like a Ski Jump

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Oct 2011 14:33

Standardization of Air Armaments for the Indian Air Force

By Air Cmde Raghubir Singh (Retd)

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2011 15:23

Well it about time some one spoke of standardization of IAF munitions. Currently they have different weapons for Air crafts of different origins.

Creating a museum of munitions resulting in a logistical nightmare.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 29 Oct 2011 09:51

IAF MiG-29 Crash Site Located, Pilot's Status Unknown
From Livefist.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 29 Oct 2011 14:53

Just a tidbit

Spotted a C-17 take off into the orange skies yesterday evening around 5:45pm from Mumbai airport, runway 927

Couldn't see the markings to confirm if it was Boeing or USAF...wonder what was the deal...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Oct 2011 17:12

just a routine refueling pitstop one would imagine.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Oct 2011 18:21

Broadsword interview: Ashok Nayak, CMD, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2011 18:42

Today was one of the best golfing days in recent times. Cool weather - 22 deg C, some sun. A short shower.. my cup of joy runneth over even if my handicap runneth into disgraceful double figures.

First a low MiG 21 came in to land. Big dael you might say. Soon after - with an almighty roar Madam Rambha came into land low overhead. So low that my golfing partner saw the size and said said "Oh that must be a transport aircraft"

Transport indeed. Bum transport. But more was to come. then..

Up ahead in the distance
I saw a shimmering sight
my head grew heavy and my sight grew dim
I could not hold my mijjile tight..

Roaring across the airfield was a tiger striped LCH that turned away to hover somewhere far away. Also rans - a Dhruv, a Chetak and a Kiran.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 31 Oct 2011 18:59

Madam Rambha??? A couple of days ago spotted a MARS bird on finals to HAL.. Is there a possibility that these are linked??

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Nov 2011 14:06

Sometimes, the level of ignorance and stupidity really baffles me...

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/11/ ... -kiri.html

Such an eventuality would be a blessing in disguise; and the best way to sidestep this cockamamie purchase of overpriced fighters that will take heavy casualties in any future conflict with China. Both the Typhoon and Rafale are “4th Generation-plus fighters”, inferior in crucial aspects like stealth to the J-20, China’s “5th Generation” (Gen-5) stealth fighter that took to the skies this year. Admittedly the J-20 would need a decade of flight-testing before it enters operational service, but the first MMRCA would only be delivered to India by 2015-16. Five years after that, operational J-20s, of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), will be dominating the Himalayas. The IAF MMRCAs, already outclassed by 2020, will limp around the skies till 2050 since the MoD will rightly protest that Rs 42,000-84,000 crore have been spent on them.

Singh · Post by **Singh** » 01 Nov 2011 22:42

shiv wrote:Today was one of the best golfing days in recent times. Cool weather - 22 deg C, some sun. A short shower.. my cup of joy runneth over even if my handicap runneth into disgraceful double figures.

First a low MiG 21 came in to land. Big dael you might say. Soon after - with an almighty roar Madam Rambha came into land low overhead. So low that my golfing partner saw the size and said said "Oh that must be a transport aircraft" Transport indeed. Bum transport. But more was to come. then..

Up ahead in the distance
I saw a shimmering sight
my head grew heavy and my sight grew dim
I could not hold my mijjile tight..

Roaring across the airfield was a tiger striped LCH that turned away to hover somewhere far away. Also rans - a Dhruv, a Chetak and a Kiran.

Tht's quite a catch in 1 day shiv... It's more like a day spent at AeroIndia

By d way can you drop me a mail on jatin dot libra at gmail dot com
I seem to have lost your number. need to talk to u asap

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 02 Nov 2011 00:37

rohitvats wrote:Sometimes, the level of ignorance and stupidity really baffles me...

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/11/ ... -kiri.html

Such an eventuality would be a blessing in disguise; and the best way to sidestep this cockamamie purchase of overpriced fighters that will take heavy casualties in any future conflict with China. Both the Typhoon and Rafale are “4th Generation-plus fighters”, inferior in crucial aspects like stealth to the J-20, China’s “5th Generation” (Gen-5) stealth fighter that took to the skies this year. Admittedly the J-20 would need a decade of flight-testing before it enters operational service, but the first MMRCA would only be delivered to India by 2015-16. Five years after that, operational J-20s, of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), will be dominating the Himalayas. The IAF MMRCAs, already outclassed by 2020, will limp around the skies till 2050 since the MoD will rightly protest that Rs 42,000-84,000 crore have been spent on them.

He's been on a major plug for JSF for quite some time now.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 02 Nov 2011 02:08

rohitvats wrote:Sometimes, the level of ignorance and stupidity really baffles me...

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/11/ ... -kiri.html

Such an eventuality would be a blessing in disguise; and the best way to sidestep this cockamamie purchase of overpriced fighters that will take heavy casualties in any future conflict with China. Both the Typhoon and Rafale are “4th Generation-plus fighters”, inferior in crucial aspects like stealth to the J-20, China’s “5th Generation” (Gen-5) stealth fighter that took to the skies this year. Admittedly the J-20 would need a decade of flight-testing before it enters operational service, but the first MMRCA would only be delivered to India by 2015-16. Five years after that, operational J-20s, of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), will be dominating the Himalayas. The IAF MMRCAs, already outclassed by 2020, will limp around the skies till 2050 since the MoD will rightly protest that Rs 42,000-84,000 crore have been spent on them.

How the simple fact that we are going to acquire PAKFA in numbers misses his radar confound me !!

Unless he considers (based on info exclusive to him) that PAKFA is inferior to J20.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 02 Nov 2011 04:44

OT self deleted

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Nov 2011 04:52

Vivek K wrote:Is the level of brass in the IA?

Ridiculous question. This is like seeing one dog without a tail and asking if all dogs are tailless.