Indian Education System

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Oct 2011 01:47

A better approach is to instill genuine interest in the student. But that would mean developing education as a holistic intellectual experience instead of an avenue for employment.

But I would be OT.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 20 Oct 2011 05:33

Lessons for the social sciences

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Oct 2011 11:11

Stan_Savljevic wrote: When Arundhoti Roy says, middle class India has divorced itself from rural India, we find it inconvenient cos A Roy is not the flavor of the season. .

With due respect A.ROy her only claim to fame is being anti-Indian and of good use for psy-ops for Media purposes. For all intents and purposes JNU/Foreign educated leftists like her and Arvind Adiga are more divorced from India than people here at BR and we dont need to listen to them.

People like me and many more in BR have to live in everyday India and interact more with Indian citizens from Urban and rural backgrounds.

We don't need advise from Foreign based/Lutyens based personality who really only interact with the media for vested interests.

The Truth is the middle class India is far closer to Rural India than Foreign embassy hoping cocktail party circuit moving media journous.

It is we who see violence and strikes when travelling through rural India which never make to the news channels of these worthies.

However, these worthies will make it a Rural poor VS Middle class India while .025% super rich like Dynasty, thier related clickes can get away from any blame.

The last thing they want us to tackle the super rich who Make money from India and have retreats in DUbai/ Europe outside public gaze and easy access to western elite. I am Not talking here of NRI's like Laxmi Mittal who make money abroad and live abroad, but people who make money from India through many illegal means and take it abroad.

And all these class wars are brought out to focus attention from the fact that elites in charge of Education system, Education syllabus, mass media, drafting laws, designing legal systems, Infrastructure, foreign policy etc in the last 60 years have completly failed this nation and need to be put out of business and a new start needs to be made.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Oct 2011 11:56

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Why is an all-India problem pinned on the IITs? What is the state-of-affairs elsewhere? Are all the maakis that study at non-IIT aanjaneyaring colleges across the country full of clarity on why they do heck or what?

oh, its not a Eye-Eye-Tea onlee problem at all or for that matter an injineering college onlee problem. It is a widespread problem in our SDRE education system in general.

The suggestion that one needs to make it harder to graduate is a sound one becoz then people will stop focusing on crossing the hurdle of the entrance exam as an end-all-be-all. And they also need to stop differentiating between quota students and general category students in terms of the qualifying marks required in the entrance exam. In that aspect I like the system in massa where you need to meet some minimum criteria which is uniform for all and then your quota benefit kicks in.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 20 Oct 2011 20:32

plus!! there should be an effort at primary school (1-8th grade) level to lump students into groups like

1. Excellent Math Students.
2. Excellent Language Students.
3. Excellent Social Students.

Then!! Once students and their parents know the strengths/weaknesses they can decide to chalk a career. In my opinion too much time/money/effort is wasted by Indian students in order to earn a livelihood. The earlier you decide the chase for the career, the less time/money/effort will require to reach that goal.

GeorgeM · Post by **GeorgeM** » 21 Oct 2011 09:25

SBajwa wrote:plus!! there should be an effort at primary school (1-8th grade) level to lump students into groups like

1. Excellent Math Students.
2. Excellent Language Students.
3. Excellent Social Students.

Then!! Once students and their parents know the strengths/weaknesses they can decide to chalk a career. In my opinion too much time/money/effort is wasted by Indian students in order to earn a livelihood. The earlier you decide the chase for the career, the less time/money/effort will require to reach that goal.

Bajwa-ji, the problem is one's "strength" in the above fields, plus others, are developed during those pre-formative years. So its way too early and fraught with risks of mis-identification. Strengths come from having a talent and then working on it. But I think your idea is good once you shift that from primary to post primary. But then again all these categorization comes from an industrial framework that was developed in the west during the post-dark age period, which has influenced the way of life of the entire mankind today. I mean this frame of modern industrial system is about 400 yrs old.

But since I countered you good intentioned arguments, I shall take the honour to present a different solution as well. I think one needs to looks at education from a foundational level as given in this famous quote - "Mankind is the only creature on the entire planet (and universe ?) that is voluntarily creative, If man ever ceases to be creative, he will simply die out ". I mean if we dont have the ability to cover our bodies, either by leather jackets or plain old animal skin or if we dont hunt or gather or harvest food using created instruments, we will simple die out. We cant compete against the cheetas and the bears and the wolves for food. Neither we have the fur to survive the extremes of weather.

So rather than focusing on sustaining a industrial system that is simply unsustainable in the long run, we need to focus on a system that will sustain mankind and also nature that inturn sustains him. Now if you look at the vedic systems thru this view-point you can see that they had tightly integrated mankinds progress with the well-being of nature around him (concepts like shub-labh, karma, dharma etc). So everything from cow dung to rats to snakes to wind and mountains were sacred. Compare that to modern education system which does nothing other than separating mankind from nature that sustains him and then teaches him to profit from destruction of the same nature.

As a final comment, I shall present an interesting case. During 2004 Dec, a few minutes before the giant tsunami hit the east coast of India, the sea receded several 100 meters back. It was apparently an awesome sight. There was one man with a PhD, out of his natural curiosity, ventured into that receded area, unbeknown to the danger awaiting him in a few mins time. Same sea-receding event happened in the islands of Andaman. But the totally 'uneducated' tribals did the opposite. They ran to the hills immediately, because they believe that the earth is resting on tree trunk and forces of good and evil are pulling on the tree, sometimes evil pulls it more and the sea recedes but immediately the good forces will pull it back and the sea will surge in with a massive tidal force. Ha what humbug ! .. Guess what ! the Phd died and the tribals lived to educate their future with the same story. Now tell me what good is education as we know it.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 24 Oct 2011 20:36

The dropouts' story --- K. C. DEEPIKA
http://www.thehindu.com/education/article2562748.ece

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 26 Oct 2011 20:15

Today being Deepavali, let me start the piss(k)ing process.

First up is the diro of IIT Kharagpur pissing on the democratization process. Did nt realize that there is some top dog out there who I echo.
http://www.scholarsavenue.org/2011/09/1 ... kl-chopra/

On the Big IIT Family

“The student increase is undesirable,” is KL Chopra’s clear and consistent view. It is one that has been heard before from various quarters, but when it comes from someone with years of experience in education administration, you know it carries weight. He would’ve fought hard with the ministry against this move had it happened when he was in charge, but then, not all Directors can fight against a powerful ministry. There was a time when Directors could meet the Prime Minister to discuss matters, but these things have changed over the years, he says.

There are presently 3,500 private technical colleges and 350 private universities to do the job of producing over 93% of the engineering graduates in India. It is wiser then to concentrate on quality rather than increase the number and intake of IITs which will not significantly change the overall percentage of graduating engineering manpower for the country. The magnified numbers today have become a burden on the existing IITs. Just imagine herding 4 students in one room in the hostel.

As for educating a class full of two hundred students, even Feynman, the great physicist, the great actor, declared his efforts at Caltech a failure. “It is the inspiration from the teacher that makes you a scientist or an engineer,” and this, KL Chopra says, cannot happen unless there is an eye-to-eye contact and direct interaction between the teacher and the student. The IITs were supposed to be the think-tanks of the country, but he believes the kind of reforms being incorporated is converting them to regular universities.
...
“The vision of education in IITs was to create knowledge, which is more important than dissemination. Also, the focus needs to be on translational research,” says KL Chopra. It isn’t that people in the IIT system aren’t competent, but there is nobody accounting for the deliverance of knowledge in a country whose economy is heavily dependent on science and technology. He believes this is a form of intellectual corruption: a condition where no questions are asked. “Fortunately the government did not know what was going on with the IT industry and thus it flourished very well.”
...
We learned that India is a signatory to the Washington Accord, a document with benchmarks for education quality. The IITs come under its purview and will have to be judged sometime, an evaluation KL Chopra says they will not necessarily pass. While IITans have hitherto enjoyed global mobility, foreign organizations now realize that given the bulk of students, a spectrum is bound to exist. While he believes a transition to a system involving thorough evaluation is going to be difficult for students as well as teachers, that is what the world today demands. It is not what is taught that is important, but whether and what students have learned, and whether they have learned to learn.

Next up, a report that I posted earlier: http://www.indiaeducationreview.com/new ... 0-teachers

Prof R.K. Shevgaonkar, who took over as director at IIT-Delhi said, “IITs all over the country need 2,500 faculty members immediately to catch up with the standard student-to-teacher ratio of 10:1. Every IIT is short of 30% faculty, he says. This has happened due to addition of 54% seats to accommodate more students in the OBC quota in the past few years. IIT-Delhi has 416 faculty members against the required 800 teachers.”

And finally, we have Prof. Balagurusamy. Prof. B has written many famous engg books that used to be commonly used in the old-TNPCEE standard driven engg curriculum.

The students cannot be blamed for lack of employability because quality of teaching is poor in most of the higher education institutions said E. Balagurusamy, Member (Education), State Planning Commission, Tamil Nadu. He was addressing a one-day interface programme, ICTACT Bridge, organised by the ICT Academy of Tamil Nadu in association with NASSCOM to “focus on employability skills”.

"Our findings show that majority of teachers in many engineering colleges are in mediocre category. When the teachers themselves are lacking employability skills, how can we expect their students to be employable? So, the correction has to start from the level of teachers. It is time to have a serious look at the quality of teachers employed in various engineering colleges and arts and science colleges as well,” he said.

Solution 2 all the woes: let us have more eye-eye-teas and let us piss on them and raise a big stink with hot air bcos the abdul knows best.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 29 Oct 2011 21:38

IIT pact with Korean varsity - Focus on research & development
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1111029/j ... 679690.jsp

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 30 Oct 2011 19:08

Azim Premji to start two free schools in every district

After chipping in for the country's educational system for a decade, the Azim Premji Foundation (APF), run by the third richest Indian on his own money, is all set for a generous initiative. The foundation plans to start 1,300 schools across the country- two per district - which will be free, impart education in the local language and be affiliated to the state board.

If the idea succeeds, it could shame India's dysfunctional public education system - and perhaps inspire other wealthy tycoons to look beyond their personal status-building.

Full Article: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 536039.cms

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 31 Oct 2011 06:45

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Why is an all-India problem pinned on the IITs? What is the state-of-affairs elsewhere? Are all the maakis that study at non-IIT aanjaneyaring colleges across the country full of clarity on why they do heck or what?

It is an all-India problem but the sheer amount of public resources used up by IITs is what makes them specific targets. Public funding must come with clarity on what the expected benefit to the country is. What goes of anyone's father if the student in a private engg. college decides to change his mind a hundred times over?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 31 Oct 2011 10:20

anjan wrote: It is an all-India problem but the sheer amount of public resources used up by IITs is what makes them specific targets. Public funding must come with clarity on what the expected benefit to the country is. What goes of anyone's father if the student in a private engg. college decides to change his mind a hundred times over?

All gov't medical and engineering insti's (including the IITs) are GROSSLY AND CRIMINALLY UNDER-FUNDED.. and in comparison the their fundings they have acheived miraculous results..

US has a total of number of first year enrolment in engineering + CS a1 1 lakh... In India the total number of seats are ALMOST 10 times that of the US...

Our problem is excessive mumber of science and engineering colleges...but not top quality ones.

In US there are 1 lakh seats of engineering 10k seats of mathematical and pphysical sciences... In India the number is considerably higher ...but not the quality...

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 31 Oct 2011 20:27

I am surprised by the number of social/behavioral science graduates. In most advanced countries it will be the other way round.
Am I missing something?

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 31 Oct 2011 21:28

Much of the government/policy work in the US is done by social science graduates, STEM only provides inputs. Its not at all surprising. The fad these days is to have a combo of social science and engg/math.

The reach of Unkil Sam is rather elaborate. In other countries, policy work is not so premium because people focus on their immediate neighborhood alone and in some pretentious and rare cases like UK or France or Germany, elsewhere. With Unkil, attention is over almost everywhere. That requires training and focus.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 31 Oct 2011 23:05

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Why is an all-India problem pinned on the IITs?

IMO, it is because of India's rigid adherence to class, which in itself may be due to caste. In this scheme of things, Delhi central government is supposed to be God, and God had deemed that IITs need to deliver world peace

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 01 Nov 2011 13:53

gakakkad wrote:All gov't medical and engineering insti's (including the IITs) are GROSSLY AND CRIMINALLY UNDER-FUNDED.. and in comparison the their fundings they have acheived miraculous results..

Perhaps but it's tangential here. Whatever amount it is, public money is being used. It's fair to ask what it's being used for and purpose is being served. If the idea is to create engineers or to create an engineering base then it's okay to ask what percentage actually go on to do engineering. In fact it's very pertinent. You might as well use the money for something else if 50% aren't interested and likely go on to do something else. If a large percentage of medical students in Govt. Colleges weren't interested in medicine and moved on to other things then you could question the investment there too.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 01 Nov 2011 17:39

^^ Engineering has a high drop out rate even in Massa... only 50%-60% of the entrants graduate as engineers...the rest switch majors... even amongst those who graduate in Engg many end up in management .. (in India they end up in IT)... now massa produces only 70k engg per year...out if these only 25 % remain in engg... problems in India are related to employment availability rather than the reasons popularly stated (iit haraam , bla bla bla ,engineers coaster ,stupid pandu bla bla bla) ...

Bad policies are hampering manufacturing growth in India and not lack of skilled engineers...our manufacturing output is 1/5th the size of khanland presently...there is a limit to the number of engineers that can be absorbed... some sectors like civil engg are laggards..reason is again the flawed real estate rules and regulation and limited permissibility of private sector participation in Infra... builders hire engineers at 15k-20k a piece... i am not sure many would like to work at such measly prices..if the regulation improve and their is a greater (far greater) private participation in infra than infra/real estate companies would hire on campus leading improvement in interest of students and greater academia-industry interface...

air-craft manufacturing was not even permitted by private players till recently...what would you expect engineers to do ? look at the number of aircraft manufacturing companies massa has ... I have visited a few sites of small aircraft companies.. (i was visualising a moment when I ll be able to afford those products

)... these are things which can even be done in India...reason why these were not done was not because engineers were idiots but because aerospace was not open to private sector...the massa industry is 11 times bigger than ours... there are small aircrat manufacturing companies the size of cottage industry ..(employing as little as 50 people)...

The problems with IIT are greatly exaggerated.. And standards have not dropped... just a few WEEKS ago kids of 2 colleges (one IIT AND ONE PRIVATE COLLEGE) designed and fabricated their satellites which were successfully launched and functioned well after launching)...yes their are some poor students in IIT ..THE REASONS IS democratisation ( a euphemism for reservation)..the comments against IIT's are partly pys-ops partly from musharraf and partly politics... not that everything is sugar and honey ...but nowhere near as bad as one might imagine...we have enough engineers to supply demands .. remember that massa with far fewer engineers has a 5 times larger manufacturing base...

The reason why doctors don't leave medicine in India that frequently is because their is a tremendous shortage ... but trust me even life in a medical college is frustrating...every one (happened to me even) at least once during their MBBS or Pg residency curses the moment they decided to become doctors...the frustration is a lot more common in India then elsewhere ..reasons for some other time...

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Social science is pretty popular in massa..not everyone goes into policy making... in fact 60% of med-school entrants are social science majors...(surprise surprise , my fiances besty is a greek classics major who entered medicine..) ... India is the only country where social science is loathed ...every tom , dick , harry , their kids and their kids dogs want to be "INjeers) and "daaktars"... probably the reason why there is a massive shortage of strategy guru's.. and the "sociologists" we do produce are the JNU type...

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 01 Nov 2011 20:04

Asit P wrote:Azim Premji to start two free schools in every district
Full Article: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 536039.cms

If things go as forecast, all the 1,300 schools should be up and running by 2025.

Jai ho Azim Premji mahasaya!

This is one of my dreams (the sole reason I buy lottery tickets

often).

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 01 Nov 2011 22:06

Industry wallahs who benefited the most from the outputs of state subsidized educational institutes need to do more, even before the sector gets reforms and red-tape reduces to start private colleges/universities of world class quality.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 02 Nov 2011 00:23

^^ Even in Insti's set up by the Industry state funding will be necessary for research... MIT and stanford are private . but receive huge federal grants... for such a thing to occur in India we need a very bold HRD min..ie an insti which is private , independent and autonomous yet receives federal funds without abiding by the gov't policy of reservations...what comes in the way is the mentality of Indians who believe that every ration card holder should receive degree of choice free of cost regardless of merit...

What might be done is to separate funding for research from funding for teaching... Only the insti's that receive funding for teachers will follow gov't norms for admissions... autonomise the IIT's by "blocking teaching funds" (which will be done by charging higher fee's + industry walla's)...once the teaching fund are blocked that would provide a reason to permit autonomous admissions and end the reservations...keep providing research grants..research grants should be strictly monitored to prevent fraud...that ensures accountability in spending public funds for research... the non affording category of students who have merit should be provided scholarships which will be industry funded as well as state funded..

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Nov 2011 01:12

It is my personal opinion that reservation should be limited to just provide access to basic education and not for higher degrees as is the case now, even for entry level jobs. The assumption here is that a level playing field is not presently there, due to the lop-sided investments or even lack thereof of relatively uniform quality school (primary + higher secondary) education across the board for all interested. Or else even reservation is not required in the Indian context.

This issue should get fixed with democratization (proliferation, a better word) of the UG level with more universities and colleges. It is already happening but quality is suspect outside of central univ and a few select state aided institutes.

The idea of separation of funds for teaching and research, does exist already isn't it ? Research funds are appropriated from DAE/DST grants based on a formal proposal and some amount of peer review of the same before getting the money. I do not think "reservation" plays any role there. Would like to be corrected if otherwise.

But even the research output of non-quota merit based entries to premier and non-premier places are also questionable largely. At least that is more the case in Engg than Sciences, from hearsay.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 02 Nov 2011 19:01

To be fair the research situation is greatly improving in spite of all the red tape...

http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.ph ... in_type=it

In 2006 the research out put per year in India was 10th in the world... in 2010 it is 9th...the research output has almost doubled in 4 years.. that is commensurate with the nominal GDP... if humanity disciplines are removed India's rank greatly improves...

China's higher ranking is due to large scale ghostwriting and photochoring... citations per article are higher in India than china and indian papers have lower self citation rate..since publish or perish is not yet the norm in India most of the out put will be authentic.. ALSO NOTE that the database contains internationally reputable indexed journals ony ..and not the spurious ones...

In fact if reforms are introduced quickly India would be close to khanate's position by in a decade... if you look at India's perfromance in intel science display fair and other such contests Indian kids outperform massa kids.. (its a different thing that most massa participants are indians too)...

Regarding deemed university --

Yes it is a very major problem... My dads colleague's went on inspection to some of the deemed uni medical colleges ...they wrote an extremely negative report .. (the kind of report shiv would write if he inspects Pakistan

) .. yet somehow the univ's stayed recognised ..UGC under Arjun singh did not consider the MCI report... their is a large scale collusion of HRD min with the owners of these degree factories... such factories are extremely dangerous...

India is able to produce as many competent engineers as massa is ...but the problem is that a large part of the out put is wasted.. to produce 40k competent engineers massa has to have 70k seats of engineering... while India has to have close to a million seats... (a bit pessimistic I agree , i assumed that only 5 % of Indian output is good)...

What my strategy would be if I was the HRD minister is to ensure that we have 10-15 top research institutes which are largely autonomous...and ensure that their are 100k additional seats in decent midtier insti's which provide solid enginnering education ...inspections to these will be very strict... as fart as the remaining proliferated insti's (with an intake capacity of close to 700k) strict inspection would shut down half of them... the fate of the ones that survive would be dictated by market forces...

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 02 Nov 2011 22:22

Bade miyan, hope you saw this:
http://english.cas.ac.cn/Ne/CN/201109/t ... 5603.shtml

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 03 Nov 2011 00:37

Paper factories are known for their extreme dilution in quality of that comes out.

Regarding peer pressure and family decisions that force young teenagers into a career not of their choice, the only viable solution is to reinstate a 2 or 3 yr UG requirement before embarking on a professional career like medicine and Engg perhaps. This was the very old system before my time. That gives the kid some breathing space to make their own decisions. This will work for medicine (MBBS) better in India. As for current UG Engg colleges/univ with a 4 yr course structure too it might work if they have in-house science and art/commerce departments.

In case of NITs/IITs it gets harder to implement due to their narrow focus. The choice of the stream to pursue can be done not at JEE level, but at the end of first 2 years for a 5yr degree or at the end of the 3rd semester for a 4-yr degree.

Remove the parents from the decision making process and let the students decide when they are more mature and not a teenager anymore.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 03 Nov 2011 00:54

Bade wrote: The choice of the stream to pursue can be done not at JEE level, but at the end of first 2 years for a 5yr degree or at the end of the 3rd semester for a 4-yr degree.

Let me give you an anecdote.

In the specialization within EE that is needed around the 4th-5th sem period, folks were asked to make a choice. Many picked areas presumably based on their own free will. 15 years down the line, I see a microscopic fraction of that list that continues to persist with the same specialization or near-abouts taking into account the vagaries of nature, depth vs. breadth compromises, need to make money, etc. and more. In fact, I can tell you with a certain degree of confidence that I am one of the two in my EE batch who is still plodding through shit-pay, and the other guy gets paid faaaarr more. If I reveal more info as much as even his location, I am sure someone here can figure more sinister stuff about me

. I can also tell you that I am in the bizness not cos I love it, but cos I hate everything else

. So there you go...

The only conclusion I can come to is that, "all these people made choices purely out of log kya kehenge rather than going after what they were strong at." You can set that period for becoming an EE the 20th semester if you want, not much is going to change. Why, there is a branch change possibility at the end of year 1, not many take it to go "down" a branch out of love for that field, not many did that in JEE counseling either. Not many who go "up" do justice to their choice either. These are all people who have cracked the above-average puzzles and whatever, yet when it comes to simple and silly things as picking a subject out of love, they need "training?!" Amuses me no end.

At the end of the day, we can keep moo-ing till kingdom come, fact is people are fickle, and even more fickle in India. And not just with the eye eye tea-s, people across the board are fickle. People want quick results, but are not willing to put in the groundwork that is needed to realize those results, so no amount of mollycoddling is going to help. You cant keep blaming the eye eye tea-s, as I said, the problem lies with the generation, the society, and what brainwashing gets done from day 1 of birth. You cant treat systemic problems with solutions that address various minor illnesses.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 03 Nov 2011 01:19

Stan-mia, you keep deflating at my hopes of a workable solution.

Some or in fact many will change course with time and that is to be expected. In certain fields like Fizziks, one cannot decide on whether one wants to be a condensed matter guy or a high-energy physics guy even by the end of 3rd or 5th year of study. But the ones who made it to graduate school (MSc) level usually want to do physics even if it is the applied variety or borderline engineering/Technology like Applied Optics, Semiconductor Physics etc. Many during my time went for M.Tech at IIT or even abroad (singapore was a fav for some reason) after a MSc physics. One who did MTech at iit ended up being a Bhatnagar fellow.

These are voluntary moves, real life imposes a lot of involuntary moves too on the majority even for the PhD variety, so that is no excuse to say everyone who did not stick around in a specialty, is a dud and at fault for being weak at heart to trudge along. The boundary conditions are not the same for all. Even in massa univs that is the case. So iit/nit/mit is no different in that respect.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 03 Nov 2011 01:28

You are comparing Physics with EE, which is a bad apple to orange to start with.

EE specialization can be picked in the 3rd-4th sem with quite a good accuracy based on whether the ward's predilection is in physics (devices)/math (comm)/a combo in between (high freq ic design/EM)/ability to plod through with crappy explanations in the dear hope that someday someone will explain better (power/instrumentation)/hifalutin mumbo jumbo trying to be math- and physics-y but failing in both (networks/comp-related). Much of engineering is like that onlee, even math specialization can be picked up after 3-4 sems of postgrad work.

Let me put it this way, if there are workable solutions to the problem you have raised, they will have been implemented. If they have not been, there exist none. Or at least people should nt be blamed for want of trying, it is a complicated mess that deserves full-spectrum attention across different spheres. Yea, I am bullshitting in mumbo jumbo myself now

. If you ask me, the only solution is to encourage inner intuition which people dont go for. The system cant be blamed if people go peer pressured.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 03 Nov 2011 01:44

The inner intuition works for some at 1-5% level for an entering class. Rest need to be herded, unfortunately. And I agree that the system cannot be blamed for the existence of a lousy peer pressure environment in the Indian middle class. But certain cultures even in India have exceptions to this "peer pressure rules" syndrome, but I will run into trouble for making that statement.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 03 Nov 2011 18:15

Why not allow Universities to have their own industries within their campus?
THe closer cooperation between industries and universities in Research and development the further Indian education system will grow.

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Nov 2011 08:36

"all these people made choices purely out of log kya kehenge rather than going after what they were strong at."

Stan I easily fall into the follow the herd crowd as far as EE is concerned; I would say that it's much more than 'log kya kahenge' imho it's a sum total of variables like being not clear with what one wants to do in life, materialistic desires (we all are but on a relative scale the one's who make easy choices are the ones who rank higher on this scale), easy pickings (campus job offers, in thing or so called hot trends when it comes to picking an elective etc) and finally circumstances (yeah it's a cliche and does not apply to me but for a minuete % of the crowd it might be true). It's a no brainer that one has to sacrifice a lot to stay in the academics as against pursuing a job in the industry after a B Tech or even a Masters and mind you folks might even be aware of the fact that a job might not be necessarily fulfilling in a true sense but it's the sheer 'laziness' which is the main reason for the majority opting for a campus job , even in the so called land of the opportunity aka Amrika bahadur folks in the academia do not make as much moolah as their counterparts in the industry and the path to a stable post (lecturer/professor) is long and arduous (specially when it comes to ability to focus on study/research and not being perturbed by distractions like what friends or other chaddi buddies are doing/earning/making).

Looks like even most of us mortals like to take the path of least resistance however looks like achieving the 'end goal' in itself is not important; the 'means' too matter to some and that is what distinguishes the folks in academia from folks like me in the market

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Nov 2011 08:56

Stan since you are a pro-establishment wadi

, you of all should appreciate the fact that the higher education scene in India cannot be analysed in isolation; after all it's bound to reflect the socio economic conditions in India. We are still a consuming economy whatever little R&D happens is due to the direct injection of funds from the GoI (CSIR labs and usual elite instis), the conditions which facilitate R&D are simply not there in plenty to encourage the private industry or even the entepreuners to look in that direction so how/why will the higher education sector produce good research/science ? At least in the area of the pure sciences GoI can inject some money and hope to see some results (INO and such stuff) but in the applied/Engg side GoI can only do so much for there has be a demand for R&D in the Industry for IITs or even NITs to fulfill; for the last decade or so it has been the ITVTY which has been drawing a lot of Engg passouts if this trend has to change something else has to come up on the scene in India.

As far as the increase in number of seats in the IITs or even number of IITs itself is concerned well I am of the view that this had to be done if for nothing else then simply to compensate for the increase in number of applicants over a period of time. Afaik all the Engg colleges in India did undergo similar exercise in 2001 (NITs simply doubled up their intake).

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 07 Nov 2011 10:39

Negi, all that you said justifying peer pressure cannot explain the fact that such a vast majority of the people take the "easier" route of industry and cud nt stick around in academia for even a wee bit. I can understand if people go on the postdoc route, get stuck for a few years in the perpetual loop and then choose to sell themselves to some "___ Inc." No, does nt/has nt happen(ed) that way. Almost everyone in my batch has a ready justification for sticking their backsides into some "___ Inc." Now that in itself is no problem for me, but if I want to explain my batch's piskology, I cant but with the hifalutin mumbo jumbo of peer pressure/family, etc. These kindsa things were there even in the 70s-80s batches (even more so if you ask me), yet noone/I has/have nt seen such systemic failures in the old batches. So the whole middle class India of today is eff-ed. Thats the bottomline. You cant fix an enormous system failure with a rubber patch on a cycle tube. Cussing at eye eye teas, cussing at eye eye ems, are all a big propagandoo effort to cover up fundamental illnesses on what makes the dung cake called middle class India.

negi wrote: ... the increase in number of seats in the IITs or even number of IITs itself is concerned well I am of the view that this had to be done if for nothing else then simply to compensate for the increase in number of applicants over a period of time.

Well, they have doubled it and there is no going back now unless there is a revolution where people get their brains lobotomized. As for quality, people cussing at eye eye teas should just shut off their valves then. You cant have the cake of democratization and still expect to eat that hifalutin quality you get in the process. As simple as that. I matter little in the process, and I simply have lost enthu in the whole process of what makes what. Everyone can keep living in their own glass houses and on the ground, it matters zilch. People continue to keep doing the same old stuff, so anyway...

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Nov 2011 11:57

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Negi, all that you said justifying peer pressure cannot explain the fact that such a vast majority of the people take the "easier" route of industry and cud nt stick around in academia for even a wee bit.[/ I can understand if people go on the postdoc route, get stuck for a few years in the perpetual loop and then choose to sell themselves to some "___ Inc." No, does nt/has nt happen(ed) that way. Almost everyone in my batch has a ready justification for sticking their backsides into some "___ Inc."

Well honestly Stan there is no question of justifying anything

(if one makes a wrong choice there is no way justifying it to oneself leave alone anyone else); as for peer pressure well the question which we all should ask ourselves is why did we write the JEE or some XYQWEE in the first place ? Again I was not even sure after my +2 if I wanted to do engineering , I hope I am not alone.

When I said academia was relatively an arduous path when compared to taking up a job in the industry I was obviously speaking based on my perception of the whole thing. I think in the end it is all about how badly you want a thing , I guess I never had that burning desire for research (even if my parents or teachers thought otherwise) and that is why I am here today; I think it might be true for others too.

Now that in itself is no problem for me, but if I want to explain my batch's piskology, I cant but with the hifalutin mumbo jumbo of peer pressure/family, etc. These kindsa things were there even in the 70s-80s batches (even more so if you ask me), yet noone/I has/have nt seen such systemic failures in the old batches.

Well I think comparison to 70-80s is a bit tricky for there was no ITVTY or even the usual 'chip' making buzz going around in those days and then obviously MBA came along. Now I did not go to any of the IITs so cannot comment on the scene there but tell me what were the options available for an IIT grad back in 70-80s as against the present batches ? I mean even in the IITs what streams/branches were the JEE toppers opting for back in 70-80s vs say in late 90s or later ? All my friends who cracked the JEE in 01 either opted for EE and CS in that order and that was the pecking order in NITs too.

So the whole middle class India of today is eff-ed. Thats the bottomline. You cant fix an enormous system failure with a rubber patch on a cycle tube.

I do not disagree with above but again that is how else is middle class is supposed to behave ? Right from the moment a child is born in a middle class family in India he/she is prepared for either becoming a doctor/engineer; in 70-80s IAS used to be the top pick ; IITs caught the middle class's eye back in the late 90s when IT happened so that should explain the way things have unfolded since then.Again I am forced to cite my own example when I was in +2 I wrote the CBSE PMT, AFMC, NDA, JEE and lots of other entrance exams , I mean seriously I had no clue as to what I wanted to do I filled those forms because all in my class did so, as simple as that. Even when I made it through the Engg. merit I took E&C because in that year it was the talk of the town and I was lucky to have made the cut.

Cussing at eye eye teas, cussing at eye eye ems, are all a big propagandoo effort to cover up fundamental illnesses on what makes the dung cake called middle class India.

Not sure where cussing part comes from, may be I missed something posted before.

Stan you are bang on about this generation being fickle or even Indians being fickle in general; but you see when was it last that Indians had so many options ? Most of the past generations have toiled hard and done the heavy lifting now that we start to see fruits people are bound to go crazy , eventually an equilibrium state shall be reached unfortunately given our numbers we might not see significant difference though .

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 16 Nov 2011 23:44

Yay...
Rs. 1-crore fine proposed for charging capitation fee
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 633542.ece

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 29 Nov 2011 23:44

IIT green signal for foreigner as director
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1111129/j ... 812558.jsp

The council’s decision does not need to be ratified by the cabinet. But the Indian Institutes of Technology will have to take security clearance from the home ministry before appointing a selected person, a standard procedure before recruiting a foreign national for a government job on contract.

So far, the Indian Citizenship Act had been the main bottleneck in appointing a foreigner as a regular director in any institute of national importance. The law says only Indian nationals can be considered for permanent posts.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 01 Dec 2011 22:11

Montek wants FDI in medical education.

Plan panel Deputy Chairman Montek Singh Ahluwalia today pitched for opening up of the medical education sector to foreign investment to increase the supply of professionals, including doctors and nursing staff.

"My view is that opening up (medical education) to private (investment) sector is crucial... and wherever private investment is allowed, I have no problem with foreign investment," Ahluwalia told reporters here on the sidelines of a Health Summit organised by CII. Ahluwalia's comment comes at a time when the government is facing flak over its decision to open up the multi-brand retail sector to foreign direct investment (FDI). The decision has resulted in a logjam in Parliament, which could not function for the eighth day in a row.

He further said, "If the private sector is going to set up 10,000 beds over the next few years, then you have a chance that 30 medical schools could be created."Ahluwalia suggested that with present capacity of medical institutions in the country, it is not possible to produce half a million doctors in the next few years, which is the need of the hour.

"At present, you cannot run a medical university unless you are a society or a trust. If you have a major corporate hospital and want to run a medical school, it is not allowed. Is that a good idea?", he asked. According to Ahluwalia, the law prescribing that only trust or societies can run a medical school in the country is an obsolete idea in the present context.

He stressed that it would be better to have a 'Section 25' company running a medical school, as it would run business in a more transparent way. "Generally people want more doctors. But nobody is focusing attention on what specific relaxation is needed if you really want (to produce) more doctors," Ahluwalia added.

"We have much high FAR (Floor Area Ratio) for hotels, but we don't have it for hospital (in India). What is the justification for that we need more hotels... It is irrational," he said.Increasing expenditure on health will not improve the situation, he said, adding that life expectancy in the USA is less than what it is in Europe, even though the American government spends about 15 per cent of its GDP on health.

The Indian government, he added, proposes to increase expenditure on health to 2.5 per cent of the GDP during the 12th Five-Year Plan from 1.03 per cent currently.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 28 Dec 2011 01:01

http://www.livemint.com/2011/12/2001002 ... bal-l.html
India fares poorly in global learning study

A global study of learning standards in 74 countries has ranked India all but at the bottom, sounding a wake-up call for the country’s education system. China came out on top.

It was the first time that India participated in the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), coordinated by the Paris-based Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). India’s participation was in a pilot project, confined to schools from Tamil Nadu and Himachal Pradesh.....

.....For literacy, Himachal Pradesh ranked 4 and Tamil Nadu 11 in the National Family Health Survey released in 2007.

Yet, in the PISA study, Tamil Nadu ranked 72 and Himachal Pradesh 73, just ahead of Kyrgyzstan in mathematics and overall reading skills. The eastern Chinese metropolis of Shanghai topped the PISA rankings in all three categories—overall reading skills, mathematical and scientific literacy.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 28 Dec 2011 01:02

^^^ The free market spin being put on the above:
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalr ... kings.html

The PISA report is available via here:
http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2987,e ... _1,00.html

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 28 Dec 2011 07:09

I am not a fan of the Indian education system , but I am quite sure , that the surveyors picked rural /tribal schools in India and compared them with the best in the OECD countries. China obviously manipulated it stats. I don't agree that an average American has better scientific awareness than their Indian counterparts. How many Americans take AP levels science or IB level science in the US ? Barely 250k . In India it is 20 times the number. This is adequately reflected in the Science and engineering enrolment in the US. 30-40% the physical science + engineering seats are filled by outsiders . And considering the fact that the annual intake is barely 150k , only 100k Americans enrol in science + engineering every year .

Having said that , I do agree that the Indian education system needs to improve a great deal . And the scope for improvement is not adequately reflecting in the reports. I mean how much skill does a mango amreeki require or have for most occupations. Most Americans are not docs or engineers . Are they ? They are plumbers , electricians cab drivers , retail sector employees etc . You don't need a lot of math or science for the task . I am sure most Indians can manage the above .

In most states the school enrolment exceeds 95% . By 2020 we ll have 90% + literacy and our per capita income will be 4-5 times the current level nominally . That is when things get interesting.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Dec 2011 08:15

isnt it absurd to compare the stats of rich and developed cities like shanghai and HK (and I am sure Shanghai made sure to put its best schools fwd there too

) with entire countries ?

in that case why not just select the top 10 schools of a couple of big indian metros and pass that off as "india"