Su-30: News and Discussion

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Oct 2011 10:41

jamwal wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Some non sense

1) India does not export offensive weapons, hence the planes have not been sold.
What about INSAS rifles that have been exported to Nepal and possibly Oman, quite a bit of old military hardware including T-55 to Myanmar ? Plans of exporting BrahMos ?

Brahmos is only on paper, Assualt rifles can hardly be classified as offensive weapons.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Oct 2011 23:02

Today is the 25th anniversary of climbing record, set using Su-27 aircraft

Today is the 25th anniversary of climbing record, set using Su-27 aircraft. The test pilot of Sukhoi Company, Viktor Pugachev, has set the world record in climbing at the altitude of 3000 meters (25.4 sec) on October 27th 1986. This record is still unbeaten, the company reports. AEX.ru

The pilot has reached the altitude of 6, 9 and 12 km in 37,1; 47,0 and 58,1 seconds on November 15th 1986, improving the previous records of American pilot R.Smith, set using F-15 fighter, by more than 2 seconds.
Pugachev has set a total of 13 world records during his career, 8 of them were set in 1986. One of the aerial stunts has been named after Pugachev – “Pugachev’s Cobra”, first demonstrated to the public in 1989 during Le Bourget airshow, the company noted.

70 world records have been set using Sukhoi aircraft and 30 of them remain unbeaten. The highest number of records is connected with legendary Su-27 fighter – 51. 6 records have been set using Su-9, 4 records – on Su-24M and 8 ones – on Su-34.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 02 Nov 2011 08:34

Phase IV Sukhoi with all Indian parts flies

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Nov 2011 08:42

HAL is like the ITI of aerospace, grown prosperous on assured Govt orders, lots of cash but unable to rise to the top level of aerospace cos organically due to payscales, lack of freedom to acquire inorganically etc.

with the downturn in europe I suspect they could recruit lots of good people if payscale freedom were given and they could setup a foreign design subsidiary someplace in EU like germany or italy.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Nov 2011 10:28

Similar to Suryag link but some intresting facts

Desi Sukhoi does supersonic ballet on debut

HAL has so far delivered 99 Sukhois to the IAF, out of a total order of 180, produced under licence from Russia at an approximate cost of Rs 250-300 crore each.

So IAF has 99 Hal =50 delivered by Russia. A fleet of 149 Su-30 aircraft. Thats good to hear, considering the massive 63 F-16 fleet Pakis have

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 02 Nov 2011 11:00

Aditya_V wrote:
So IAF has 99 Hal =50 delivered by Russia. A fleet of 149 Su-30 aircraft. Thats good to hear, considering the massive 63 F-16 fleet Pakis have

The massive F-16 fleet is easily countered by the upgraded MiG-29s. Therefore, Su-30s are free to do what they excel, taking out the Paki airfields and oil depots, thereby grounding the PAF fleet indefinitely.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Nov 2011 11:35

against TSP, the su30s can focus on delivering huge bombloads and attacking their western bases where the paf likes to disappear into.

against PLAAF, until the mrca and pakfa are there in numbers the su30s have to focus on air to air role as the plaaf flankers have a lot of endurance for the more short legged tejas/m2k/mig29 types

do IAF squadrons specialize in a2a or a2g when flying multi role a.c or the sqdns itself are staffed with equal number of pilots who specialize in this?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Nov 2011 12:31

Hitesh wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
So IAF has 99 Hal =50 delivered by Russia. A fleet of 149 Su-30 aircraft. Thats good to hear, considering the massive 63 F-16 fleet Pakis have
The massive F-16 fleet is easily countered by the upgraded MiG-29s. Therefore, Su-30s are free to do what they excel, taking out the Paki airfields and oil depots, thereby grounding the PAF fleet indefinitely.

Not really as of today Pakis have F-16's Block 50/52 with Amraam's while we are only starting to upgrade the Mig-29's and M-2000. While I think the Mig-21 Bis with its Kopyo radar will be at a disadvantage.

Those F-16's are only aircraft which stop air dominance of Pakis within a few hours. It was the lack of Amraam capable F-16 made the Pakis sh** bricks in 2001. We don't need a fair fight, we need an unfair fight were PAF, PN are taken out really fast and Paki missile launchers can be targeted relentlessely, reducing Paki army to just getting bombed and counting dead.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Nov 2011 12:34

how many F-16-52 have the pakis ordered and how many delivered? 18?

I understand of the surviving 32 block15 F-16s, Khan added 8 to make 40 and all of them are slated for MLU upto block40 std with some already being delivered? these too would have APG68v9 radar and amraam capability I guess.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 02 Nov 2011 19:10

18 f-16 block 52+ + 14 f-16 block 52+ (follow on order)+ 31 already in service f-16 a/b will get MLU( 9 have crashed) + 14 f-16 a/b that were embargoed and delivered later,also will get MLU,

a total of 77 with 32 block 52+ and 45 MLU closer to block 40 or earlier block 52

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Nov 2011 23:02

I had been saying for some time that the IAF should have well above the ridiculous 100 a/c number - 140 is what I had guessed, and it could even be 160:

99 via HAL (another 80+ are due by 2017 - very manageable)
50 original - direct from Roos
40 additional (fast tracked on ACM Tyagi's request circa 2010) - also from Roos either completely or partially delivered

I'd assume 160 is likely. Unless HAL has been asleep. I believe they started deliveries in 2004 (4nos delivered), and then followed up with 8 a/c per year, which was soon (post 2007) increased to 14+, and possibly 20 p.a. Thus, conservatively, I'd assume -

4 in 2004
8 in 2005
8 in 2005
8 in 2006
8 in 2007
14 in 2008
14 in 2009
14 in 2009
14 in 2010

Total HAL delivered = 92
Original Russian delivered = 50
2 nd Russian order = 20 plus

Around 160 units in service, which makes me feel better

Over the next five years another 110 birds need to come in (at least 20 will be direct from Roos, and HAL could manage 14-20 p.a for 5-6 years).

As for PAF, how many blk50s have been delivered so far? IIRC only one sqd operates them (No. 5, Jacobabad). So about 18-20 units of blk 50+. Thing is how many JF-17s do they have, and I'd assume these are BVR capable? I'd guess optimistically, no more than about 50-80 birds with BVR capability of varying levels. Out of these only 18 have confirmed BVR capability.

A quick look at the PLAAF shows that they could probly muster a good BVR force of 150 flanker variants and 100 J10s vs. India, without entirely denuding their forces against other potential foes.

As against these - the IAF has at least 280 BVR capable a/c (ARH), and another 100 odd birds with semi active BVR missiles. Chalk up another 20 odd airframes (MiG-29Ks) from the IN as well.

CM

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Nov 2011 23:26

In terms of BVR forces, in the near future (5 years) we can expect:

For PAF (optimistically): 100 JF17s + 45 F-16 + 20 J10 = 165 fighters

For PLAAF: 90 odd J11 + 100 J10s = 200 fighters (these will most likely be uber 4.5 gen birds with ESA)

For IAF: 90 MKI + 20 MRCA + 50 LCA (fingers crossed) = 160 fighters (and probably upgraded fulcrums).

The scenario here is not v.promising. Acquiring Qatari M2ks, ex Adla birds sounds good. Or perhaps an extra sqd of MRCA can be delivered direct ala MKI

CM.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Nov 2011 23:28

Aditya_V wrote:
Not really as of today Pakis have F-16's Block 50/52 with Amraam's while we are only starting to upgrade the Mig-29's and M-2000. While I think the Mig-21 Bis with its Kopyo radar will be at a disadvantage.

What you are missing is that before the current deliveries of AMRAAMs, the PAF was pretty much BVR nude. The IAF wasn't. Even the non-upgraded Mig-29s and M2ks can fire BVR missiles (R-27 & R-77 for the 29 and Matra Super-530D for the M2k). So the IAF has been practicing BVR tactics for a lot longer than the PAF has.

Edit: The Bis does not have the Kopyo radar. Only the 125 upgraded Bisons do. And the radar enables them to fire the R-77s. So while it may have a smaller range than the Apg-68, it is still BVR capable.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 03 Nov 2011 03:39

Desi Sukhoi Performs Supersonic Ballet on Debut
Aircraft built from complete raw material phase makes a silent entry

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 03 Nov 2011 05:41

nachiket wrote: What you are missing is that before the current deliveries of AMRAAMs, the PAF was pretty much BVR nude. The IAF wasn't. Even the non-upgraded Mig-29s and M2ks can fire BVR missiles (R-27 & R-77 for the 29 and Matra Super-530D for the M2k). So the IAF has been practicing BVR tactics for a lot longer than the PAF has.

Edit: The Bis does not have the Kopyo radar. Only the 125 upgraded Bisons do. And the radar enables them to fire the R-77s. So while it may have a smaller range than the Apg-68, it is still BVR capable.

Also, what BVR will the JF 17, J10 have - PL 12? I doubt its BVR capabilities.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Nov 2011 11:47

nachiket wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
Not really as of today Pakis have F-16's Block 50/52 with Amraam's while we are only starting to upgrade the Mig-29's and M-2000. While I think the Mig-21 Bis with its Kopyo radar will be at a disadvantage.

What you are missing is that before the current deliveries of AMRAAMs, the PAF was pretty much BVR nude. The IAF wasn't. Even the non-upgraded Mig-29s and M2ks can fire BVR missiles (R-27 & R-77 for the 29 and Matra Super-530D for the M2k). So the IAF has been practicing BVR tactics for a lot longer than the PAF has.

Edit: The Bis does not have the Kopyo radar. Only the 125 upgraded Bisons do. And the radar enables them to fire the R-77s. So while it may have a smaller range than the Apg-68, it is still BVR capable.

Me Bad- I meant Bison

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Nov 2011 11:55

hokay, serial number time.

the above MKI is SB161, making it 61st production from HAL, since the desi series started with SB 101. it means that HAL productions continue in the SB 1xx series.
which also solves the mystery of the SB 3xx series, those are new russian built items.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Nov 2011 12:03

^^ Saar does this mean that HAL has wonlee produced 61 a/c so far? Ayyo! Jaw drops...Point is this would mean about 110 a/c in IAF inventory, which means another 160 need to be built by 2017 - they'd need to go at well above 25 p.a for that.

CM

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Nov 2011 12:41

0xx & 3xx Russian, 1xx and 2xx Indian, 3xx is continuation of original 50 +18 (2007) + 40 (2007).

^^ HAL has also assembled and tested 2007 orders

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Nov 2011 12:50

CM, HAL was originally expected to produce 140 aircraft, I don't think that has gone up. additional orders are directly from russia. (could be wrong but I would request links from anyone claiming otherwise.)

they have 80 to produce in 5 years or 16 p.a.

edit :
>> Point is this would mean about 110 a/c in IAF inventory, which means another 160 need to be built by 2017

how so ? 61 (HAL : SB 1xx) + 50 (IAPO : SB 0xx) + unknown number around 30 from IAPO (SB 32x was sighted IIRC)
making 140+, perfect tally with the 7 mki squadrons IAF is supposed to operate.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 03 Nov 2011 17:58

I got a pooch.. does the "61" in SB161 look funny to you? it looks funny to me in both the pics out from TarMAKS blog...

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 03 Nov 2011 18:01

Also Number ranges seen till date

SB001 to SB018 (Ks)
SB019 to SB066 (MKIs)
SB101 to SB161
SB303 to SB324 (assume that it started from SB301)

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Nov 2011 18:26

my word, it does look funny.

I was a little surprised that I could read it from the front aspect but thought nothing of it.

IAF is on to us.

p.s. Jag, what is the latest 1xx series bird spotted other than this one ?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 03 Nov 2011 19:34

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=16406

HAL has so far delivered 99 Sukhois to the IAF, out of a total order of 180, ....

HAL will have to complete the deliveries by 2014-15, but we expect a delay of three years,” IAF sources said. Express has learnt that the delay in the design and development phase of Sukhoi in Russia impacted the receipt of technology and tooling in India. HAL too had issues in absorbing new technologies.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Nov 2011 19:55

1 question, are we sure SB 161 was the first Type IV aircraft or was it an earlier aircraft since articles clearly state 99 HAL produced aircraft delivered.

so it could be 50 earlier delivered from Russia + 22 of the later order + 99 from HAL, around 160 aircraft in IAF inventory.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Nov 2011 21:25

A stupid question, were the injuns also made for this MKI, in India.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 03 Nov 2011 21:45

Why the flag symbol is vertical and inverted in the tail? If this is a newbie question I am glad to post there. However I thought the context will be lost.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 03 Nov 2011 22:08

Pratyush wrote:A stupid question, were the injuns also made for this MKI, in India.

Last I remember the desi made Al-31 was not full upto form, sketchy with the details, so I would say, nope, that bird doesnt have Injun engines to it.

----------------

Article contradicts my statement, go with the article

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 03 Nov 2011 22:15

If you had read the article

while the engine was produced at the Koraput Division.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Nov 2011 22:38

JTull wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=16406

HAL has so far delivered 99 Sukhois to the IAF, out of a total order of 180, ....

HAL will have to complete the deliveries by 2014-15, but we expect a delay of three years,” IAF sources said. Express has learnt that the delay in the design and development phase of Sukhoi in Russia impacted the receipt of technology and tooling in India. HAL too had issues in absorbing new technologies.

aha, thank you !

so one of the 40 size orders has gone to HAL, possibly the second one which would include the super 30 upg. question, is if they are giving out the number to the public, why the circus with the serial number in the pic.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Nov 2011 23:02

Prithwiraj wrote:Why the flag symbol is vertical and inverted in the tail? If this is a newbie question I am glad to post there. However I thought the context will be lost.

it's a fin flash, not the tricolour although it has the same colours and is likely influenced by it.

here's a list of air force fin flashes, as you can see, fin flashes are usually related to but not identical to national flags.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fin_flash

similar list of roundels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_a ... air_forces

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 04 Nov 2011 01:04

Rahul M wrote:CM, HAL was originally expected to produce 140 aircraft, I don't think that has gone up. additional orders are directly from russia. (could be wrong but I would request links from anyone claiming otherwise.)

they have 80 to produce in 5 years or 16 p.a.

edit :
>> Point is this would mean about 110 a/c in IAF inventory, which means another 160 need to be built by 2017

how so ? 61 (HAL : SB 1xx) + 50 (IAPO : SB 0xx) + unknown number around 30 from IAPO (SB 32x was sighted IIRC)
making 140+, perfect tally with the 7 mki squadrons IAF is supposed to operate.

AFAIK the 2007 40 a/c order was directly from Russia but as CKD kits to be assembled by HAL. HAL counts CKD/SKD kits assembly as its own production so technically this order is with HAL from GOI and HAL places order on Russia for kits. IIRC Ashok Nayak had said in Jan 2011 interview that they have delivered 105 a/c so clearly counting the 40 order. AKA statement in parliament also talks about a 40 a/c order on HAL.

I also remember very briefly discussing this with an ex air chief last year. Last month when I was in India I spoke to an ex CMD of HAL who are family friends and he confirmed the policy. He had promised to let me know about this order as well but he could'nt. From what I hear the 2015 deadline for the 140 order will definitely be missed.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Nov 2011 06:18

Rahul M wrote:CM, HAL was originally expected to produce 140 aircraft, I don't think that has gone up. additional orders are directly from russia. (could be wrong but I would request links from anyone claiming otherwise.)

they have 80 to produce in 5 years or 16 p.a.

edit :
>> Point is this would mean about 110 a/c in IAF inventory, which means another 160 need to be built by 2017

how so ? 61 (HAL : SB 1xx) + 50 (IAPO : SB 0xx) + unknown number around 30 from IAPO (SB 32x was sighted IIRC)
making 140+, perfect tally with the 7 mki squadrons IAF is supposed to operate.

Oops Rahul Da - bliss to be bardoned for a late night bost booboo. Yes, as things stand, you have the 50 original MKI + the 40 ordered in 2007, whether HAL delivered or Irkut or BOTH (this is a possibility as there were pics of MKIs coming out of Irkut fully ready in yellow primer circa 2009), my guess is that these 40 are close to being completed, plus whatever HAL has produced so far. IOWs, total is probly close to 160 birds, sqd No. 8 must be getting ready.

CM.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Nov 2011 06:21

Akshay Kapoor wrote:From what I hear the 2015 deadline for the 140 order will definitely be missed.

***! Can't they get one thing delivered on time, just one f*** thing. Not good for jingo pscyhe this "tareekh pe tareekh" shit!

CM

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Nov 2011 09:18

thanks for the inputs kapoor sahab.

CM, I think the super-30 might have something to do with it.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 05 Nov 2011 22:04

Rahul M wrote:thanks for the inputs kapoor sahab.

CM, I think the super-30 might have something to do with it.

You are most welcome Rahul sahab. CM, I share your anguish, but most of us know both the issues and the solutions. The day (if ever) we as a people realise that national security is critical and become serious about it these issues will be resolved.

OT - What is even more worrying than the gaps in our weapon systems is our armed forces getting choked by urban sprawl, illegal construction, encroachment etc and loosing their training areas. Every other day there is demand in some part of the polity for the Lohegaon AFS to move out. INS HANSA is getting choked by domestic and international air traffic and loosing their dispersal areas but GOI has been extremely unsupportive. A large number of IAF's main airbases are open to civilian traffic and over time that tends to choke the IAF in several ways. Ditto the the navy at Mumbai and Vizag.

Army cantts are full of heavy traffic constricting troop movement (even causing accidents to troops on foot or cycles at times) and training areas/firing ranges are being lost very fast. IAF does'nt have enough bombing ranges, and has airspace issues . Arty does'nt have enough firing ranges. There are very few places left for exercises at brigade and above level (in cases even at battalion level). CIJWS Mizoram (internationally recognized as one of the best counter insurgency schools in the world) has been screaming for years that they don't have a permanent base but no one gives a damn. Even small arms training and daily BPET is becoming a problem in some places. This is effecting training and op readiness and is extremely dangerous. There is deep concern in the services at all levels about this. Training is the single most important battle winning factor and has always stood us in good stead. We just cant afford to mess around with it.

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Nov 2011 09:10

X-post:

sum wrote:Time for more
HAL may not meet SU delivery deadline

The Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) may not be able to deliver the remaining 81 Su-30 MKI fighter planes to Indian Air Force (IAF) within the contract period that ends in 2014-15.

Five years ago, the IAF entered into an agreement with the HAL for the supply of 180 Su-30 MKI by 2014-15. “Out of the total 180 aircraft, 99 aircraft have been delivered till 2010-11,” Defence Minister A K Antony informed the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday.

But going by the information shared by Antony, HAL does not seem to be in a position to fulfill its contracted commitment, as its assembly line can produce only 16 aircraft every year.

This means in the remaining four yers, HAL can at best produce 64 aircraft and may require at least another year to deliver the 17 others.

As per the initial contract between IAF and HAL approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security in December 2000, the Su-30 project was to commence from 2004-05 and be completed by 2017-18.

In June 2005, Air Headquarters requested HAL to explore the feasibility of compressing the delivery programme by three years. HAL submitted a proposal envisaging compressed delivery of 140 aircraft within 2014-15, which was approved by the CCS in 2006 .

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 25 Nov 2011 20:03

deleted

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Nov 2011 21:39

Actually they are delivering 16 aircraft a year which is pretty good and will deliver the entire lot 1 year late as per the compressed schedule. The original plan was 140 by 2014-15, now they are doing 180 2015-16.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 27 Nov 2011 12:27

^^^ this article has some nuggets with a misleading title, AKA talking about 16 rambhas a year is indeed a good news, more orders coming HALs way cannot be ruled out considering that IAF has reduced the # of twin-seeters in PAK-FA order with more single-seeters. I think HAL will continue to chug out Rambha untill the line is needed for building PAK-FAs and FGFAs!!!