India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Nov 2011 14:29

Fingers and Toes are crossed that the Rafale will be the winner in all the categories of the bid.

Rafale will loose onlee.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Nov 2011 15:30

its 3.29pm IST...by govt working hrs esp on a friday its already nearing end of day. so I guess The Envelopes have been opened already in presence of vendor reps and seals duly x-verified by reps.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 04 Nov 2011 15:56

They should broadcast it Live like a final match

Fingers crossed.

Regards,
Virendra

mallikarjun · Post by **mallikarjun** » 04 Nov 2011 16:14

Somebody just tweeted that meting will finish by 0530 pm

Pogula · Post by **Pogula** » 04 Nov 2011 16:19

GeorgeWelch wrote:
You said none had been delivered, which is false.

They are not operational because squadrons haven't been built-up and testing hasn't been completed, but they are functional right now.

They could go into combat and shoot their guns and fire their missiles right now. Of course the USAF isn't ready to use them yet, but fully functional production jets have been delivered.

I don't think you can consider the F35 a "fully functional" jet until it reaches FOC, which is still quite a few months/years away. So, I don't think IAF will even consider the Pentagon offer of an incomplete jet, over the battle tested and more flexible (better TOT) Eurocanards.

koti · Post by **koti** » 04 Nov 2011 16:39

Is it mentioned anywhere by the pentagon or any other party involved that this offer has anything to do with the MMRCA?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 04 Nov 2011 16:42

Singha wrote:its 3.29pm IST...by govt working hrs esp on a friday its already nearing end of day. so I guess The Envelopes have been opened already in presence of vendor reps and seals duly x-verified by reps.

Sometimes govt offices can surprise you by working well past the working hours. I got a call from BSNL at 9 PM when i reported that my landline wasnt working

koti · Post by **koti** » 04 Nov 2011 16:49

<Joke> Did the call involved sharing your Credit call details..

</Joke>

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 04 Nov 2011 16:58

Nope. It was the exchange guy checking whether the line was working or not

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Nov 2011 17:26

Its 5:30 PM by my watch.

No reports on any of the news channels

Pogula · Post by **Pogula** » 04 Nov 2011 17:28

Pratyush wrote:Its 5:30 PM by my watch.

No reports on any of the news channels

3 more minutes left, by my watch... And again, considering the meeting is at an MoD office, add another 20 minutes for sussu breaks before the press release... LOL

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 04 Nov 2011 17:30

hahahaa

Pogula · Post by **Pogula** » 04 Nov 2011 17:35

koti wrote:Is it mentioned anywhere by the pentagon or any other party involved that this offer has anything to do with the MMRCA?

According to an NDTV article, it did.

"After losing out in the MMRCA race, the Americans openly expressed their displeasure and are now pitching their new F-35 Joint Strike Fighter 'Lightning-II', reportedly a fifth generation combat plane, from the Lockheed Martin stable under their foreign military government-to-government sale if India cancels the MMRCA tender."

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india ... stories&cp

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 04 Nov 2011 17:48

Are the loo breaks over yet?

prabir · Post by **prabir** » 04 Nov 2011 17:54

US is offering F35 only "if India cancels the MMRCA contract"
I hope decision makers select one of the shortlisted aircraft and put an end to this circus quickly.

Virendra · Post by **Virendra** » 04 Nov 2011 18:03

There's no way they'd cancel/hang this process now. The GoI doesn't want to look like a clueless fool (even if it is

).
Its Rafale or Typhoon !! Too late for the US .. beat around the bush response for local consumption perhaps.

Regards,
Virendra

Pogula · Post by **Pogula** » 04 Nov 2011 18:09

http://tribune.com.pk/story/287590/indi ... lane-deal/

According to this article, which was posted just 20 minutes ago, the bids have been opened and meeting concluded. The final winner will not be disclosed for a few more weeks, until the bids (especially TOT) are examined in detail.

[joke] This is worse than showing up to a cancelled Metallica Concert. Let's set some forum threads on fire in retaliation [/joke]

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Nov 2011 18:10

bid has been opened <before> 5:15. the hold up was from the press I would guess, not the susu breaks.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 04 Nov 2011 18:15

We all knew the govt would be late ...
but I was sort of expecting one of the local members
of this good forum to stand by the door about now.

What a glorious report of one set of despondent bidders
pulling their hair out in tearful despair while the others
ditch their clothes on the street from joy and kiss all
passerbys to the shouts of "India is the greatest!"
we missed.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 04 Nov 2011 18:26

Rafale in pole position in switzerland :

Combat Aircraft: manufacturers under pressure!
Avia News , Nov 4

Switzerland will choose its new fighter before the end of the year, I propose a final section about the progress of the competition. Prices fell and political-industrial interest resurface! Politicians succeed in Bern to explain the benefits of the aircraft they defend, Swedish followed by the French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet followed next Tuesday by German Thomas de Maizière.

Competition played a role:

The strategy implemented by the DDPS and Armasuisse worked very well and the crisis of the European currency is providing the icing on the cake! Remember, there was talk of a purchase about 5 billion [francs], but last week Ueli Maurer (Head of the DDPS [M.O.D.]) was very proud to announce that the updated offers will not exceed 4 billion for the highest ! The decline of the euro, combined with the competitive strategy have forced the three manufacturers to revise their price.
Saab, Dassault Aviation and Cassidian (EADS) must sell and had to bring on the table a draft budget which corresponds to the finances of Switzerland, lest simply be discarded.
The Gripen is the less expensive plane with an offer around 3 billion, while the Eurofighter is around 4 billion. The Rafale is between the two.

The situation of three competitors:

The French aircraft is undoubtedly the favorite with a price that is perfectly in the line with the imposed budget. Best in tests with 95% success, the Rafale is also available with a full industrial partnership that affects not only the entire plane itself but also the whole range of business jets "Falcon", the engine manufacturer SNECMA / CFM International and all related manufacturers.Was the best aircraft overtaken by its competitors? The answer is no, the Rafale is immediately proposed with an electronic scanning antenna (AESA) and some second generation items, that were tested, like the front sector optronic(OSF) and the electronic architecture.
The weak point? The French aircraft found so far no customers abroad, and in some way there is a risk for our country to become entirely dependent on french future choices. Yes, except that the Rafale will probably be sold in the UAE and is also well-positioned in India and Brazil, so the situation could evolve.

The Swedish aircraft remains the cheapest and can play on the effect of the price. But the arguments of Sweden will also play on the fact that the Gripen demonstrator has evolved through the NG (Next Generation Gripen). The proposed version to Switzerland will be remotorizéd (General Electric F414-) and therefore more powerful , the electronic architecture is more recent and by 2016 it will be possible to install the Ericsson RAVEN ES-05 with electronically scanned antenna (AESA) . But beware, the plane is the smallest, experience shows that it is always more complex to modernize an aircraft with little free space.
Saab offers a collaborative effort to update the entire fleet of Gripen in the world and this in full collaboration with the Swedish aviation. The offer is attractive to the condition that all customers of Gripen, want such a modernization. However, there is an unknown : SAAB manufacturer viability in the long run!

The Eurofighter is most expensive but still falls in the numbers. The European consortium offers an improved aircraft with a more powerful CAPTOR-M radar version . This version of the radar is part of the 3A tranche, which prepares the arrival in 2016 of the CAPTOR-E with electronic scanning antenna that can be installed as a retrofit. Cassidian provides a strong partnership with companies such as Airbus, Eurocopter, CASA and the equipment manufacturers of the group.
Yet there is a risk in terms of collaboration because of the complexity of the consortium whose procedures are slowed due to the outsourcing of the assembly lines to the 4 producing countries.
[...]

http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/201 ... ssion.html

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 04 Nov 2011 18:38

Oh, Arthuro, shocking, mate!

You should know I appreciate you a lot like most French forumers do but ...

Not only does posting Swiss comp news at this time in this forum
almost amounts to trolling

BUT WHAT?

This article manages to write SNECMA / CFM International???????????
SNECMA makes the M-88, and partners in civil engines with GE as CFM.
Look at their products page : http://www.cfm56.com/products

Sturdy mistake by the journo and "outlining" it in red m'well ...

Sorry to have had to call you on that, it happens, did it too at times

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 04 Nov 2011 18:50

I don't follow you ? The fact snecma which owns 50% of CFM joint venture can propose the swiss industry to participate is perfectly possible.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 04 Nov 2011 19:09

OK How then, could SNECMA offer partnership in a venture
that is co-owned by GE?
The civil line of CFM is in no way related to that deal.
SNECMA could conceivably sub-contract work for parts
of its share of CFM's production but that would still have
to be approved by the consortium's executives and can hardly
be offered just like that.

No problem for the others listed but a full industrial partnership
with CFM is not a valid business offer by normal standards.

This said, the ties with the Swiss make sense all the way
RUAG for one works tightly and well with Dassault, has been for years.

What about the MMRCA bids now? arghhhhhh

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Nov 2011 19:11

I am expecting before the night is done, 'sources' will leak the L1 name

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 04 Nov 2011 19:13

The answer is simple Tangibay : Snecma can outsource to the swiss industry some of its contribution in the CFM JV. That does not imply to change the status of the JV which is co-owned by snecma and GE.

So yes it is perfectly possible and feasible that an industrial participation in the CFM may be part of the offset package. Here the swiss industry will be a supplier and you don't need to be a shareholder and change CFM JV equilibrium.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 04 Nov 2011 19:16

From FT.com

India fighter jet deal soars to $20bn

An Indian contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders could be worth $20bn, almost double the original estimate, according to the government.

The defence ministry revised up its initial $11bn estimate after reviewing bids from the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and France’s Dassault, the maker of the Rafale aircraft, a ministry official told the Financial Times.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 04 Nov 2011 19:20

OK Anthuro, still not a valid business offer by normal standards
as I said but heck, fine if you want.

--------------

Yup, Singha.
In such an occurence, considring the size of the event,
someone somewhere should be "convinced" to talk,

I just wish he'd do it sooner rather than later

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 04 Nov 2011 19:26

No problem

You were mixing "supplier" and "shareholder"

What's normal ? Dassault is offering business to the swiss industry in its civilian products (falcon jets) So Snecma is just doing the same.
Remember that Dassault Aviation had to invest in flower plantation in the UAE desert as a part of the M2K-9 offset package !!
As far as offset are concerned sky is the limit in terms of imagination...I bet we will be surprise for india as well !

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 04 Nov 2011 19:31

Kashi wrote:An Indian contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders could be worth $20bn

So over $150 million/plane potentially

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Nov 2011 19:35

I think it just means 200 units not 126 thats all. so $100 mil

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 04 Nov 2011 19:37

That figure must include everything or almost :

1) Full weapon package
2) Spare parts
3) facilities
4) training (pilots, mechanics etc)
5) cost of offsets (like investing in an assembly line)

to be a fully potent and operationnal asset it can't just be the flyaway price which is between 55 to 75 millions € (roughly) depending on the rafale or typhoon. You have to double that cost at least to get something really operationnal and sustainable...And india want Full ToT and a lot of offset which necessarly comes with a cost. (cost of learning and setting up the right facilities)

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 04 Nov 2011 19:38

^^^^^
GW, I simply cannot believe it is for the straight MMRCA.

Either those 20Bn$ include the 63 potential additional units as Singha said
or they cover lifetime costs as expected and just mentioned by Arthuro.
The adjustment to 15Bn$ remains most probable on a 126 plane basis.

Good day all, Tay.

( Suppliers have to be approved but still ok. )

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 04 Nov 2011 19:49

livefist Shiv Aroor
Done. #MMRCA fighter commercial bids opened in presence of reps from @EADSgroup & #Dassault. Will take 6-8 weeks to detemine lowest bidder.

http://twitter.com/#!/search?q=%23MMRCA

-Ankit

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 04 Nov 2011 19:57

Singha wrote:I think it just means 200 units not 126 thats all. so $100 mil

Maybe not....

The defence official said adjustments were being made to the previous estimates of $11bn for the contract as it was based on 2007 figures and needed to reflect current prices.

Either way, this is criminal for a plane that will be hopelessly outclassed in our neighborhood within 10 years.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 04 Nov 2011 20:09

I don't believe Rafale or Typhoon will be outclassed any time soon in indian neighbourhood...

Making an aircraft with a blended fuselage does not make it as advanced or so called 5th gen. In terms of engine performance or integrated avionics or production quality China is still far from offering something of the same level. They'll probably do at one point this century but not that fast.

As for the T-50 it is arguably a powerfull and impressive jet with powerfull sensors but one can wonder how integrated its avionic package will be despite latest claims. And when you look at the quality of the assemblage one can wonder if it will be as LO as advertised. Sure progress were made since the mig-29 but when you compare the F35 with the T-50 from close the difference of quality is still important : T-50 finnishing is still crude.

So we will probably have to wait a long time before it can really become a threat. Advanced fighter jets is more than just showing "blended fuselage fighters". It must become an homogene and coherent package.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 04 Nov 2011 20:09

MMRCA Bids Open, Lowest Bidder In December

EADS Cassidian released this statement shortly after the opening of bids: Our offer for India’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender is backed by the four Eurofighter partner nations as well as their respective aerospace and defence industries. It is competitive and designed to deliver maximum value to India. Our proposal to make India a full partner in the Eurofighter programme is fully supported by Germany, the UK, Spain and Italy.

Will update this post if/when Dassault makes a statement.

-Ankit

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Nov 2011 20:17

$150m is not the right cost for either ef2k or rafale. it must be for more than 126 in number. if 150, then I see the argument from jasoos-f authors.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Nov 2011 20:20

Ankit Desai wrote:livefist Shiv Aroor
Done. #MMRCA fighter commercial bids opened in presence of reps from @EADSgroup & #Dassault. Will take 6-8 weeks to detemine lowest bidder.

http://twitter.com/#!/search?q=%23MMRCA

-Ankit

Just what is the criteria of determining the L1 for the bids. The offset proposals are known. The decision has to be made on the basis of pure price onlee.

The lower cost of the individual plane should decide the winner. Unless performance & not price is the determining factor. In that case the aircraft which had the highest performance in the IAF technical evaluation will win.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Nov 2011 20:23

well considering the way India have been buying weapons. The individual aircraft will cost 200 Million $

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Nov 2011 20:29

SaiK wrote:$150m is not the right cost for either ef2k or rafale. it must be for more than 126 in number. if 150, then I see the argument from jasoos-f authors.

Although $ 150 mill sounds really high, we really don't know what is included in the package. AND, this price is not too different from the BRazil, Swiss, Austrian, Aussie numbers for similar a/c. Just the weapons package (meteors, micas, scalp/taurus, iris/asraam etc can be a fortune).

Freaky shit! Scrap the crap, buy available 1 sqd each of M2ks/MiG-29s/MKI at 25% of this price, upgrade entire MKI fleet with an uber upgrade, make the LCA happen, and put some extra $$s to get an early Pakfa. Set up JV for AMCA. They'll still have $$s left over to buy some force multipliers like AWACS, a few more Phalcons wouldn't hurt.

CM