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Vishal Jolapara wrote:Clarification recieved: As per my request, Siegi has put-up 4 on his Flickr Page > http://www.flickr.com/photos/65581465@N03/
On the right of the photo there, you can see the date it was shot & you can access the Full EXIF data by clicking on the Camera name
[Speculation Alert]Are these the new birds ACM Naik talked about? possible[/Speculation Alert]
The later picture seems to show the particular aircraft's sheet metal in better condition, perhaps after proper maintenance or the newer picture simply shows better detail. More than likely KW-3551 is getting significant hardware upgrades at IAI facilities in Israel.
PratikDas wrote:Vishal, thanks for posting the *already public* photos. There seems to be an abundance of self-made adminullahs nowadays.
Pratik i'm not sure what you're trying to imply here.
I was the one who posted one of the first photos of the A50 doing its thing in Israel,
The lead Israeli spotter made the following remark in his Top Shot (which was later removed off JetPhotos.net for some security reason) of the A50 pushing back for its first flight with the Phalcon Installed, 'Photo dedicated to Vishal Jolapara from Mumbai'
Vishal, you've misunderstood my post. I was sincerely thanking you for posting the photo here. It is very interesting that the KW-3551 is without it's antenna and absolutely relevant to this thread. The second sentence had to do with people calling for self censorship on BR when these photos are already public on airliners.net, flickr or other websites. So why shouldn't we discuss the missing antenna?
I doubt enemies are waiting for BR to discover photos on airliners.net or Google Earth. I'm pretty sure they're doing it for themselves. So, I don't think there's anything wrong in speculating on what might be going on. I'd like to think, like Kakarat said, that it's an antenna upgrade!
IAI has no comment on the request, but it is understood that the additional systems may include sensors that would improve the "threat picture" even under adverse conditions.
In the meantime, India experts are visiting Israel regularly.
Perhaps IAF liked what they got on the 3rd Phalcon and wanted to upgrade the first / remaining ones too?
Mort Walker wrote:The later picture seems to show the particular aircraft's sheet metal in better condition, perhaps after proper maintenance or the newer picture simply shows better detail. More than likely KW-3551 is getting significant hardware upgrades at IAI facilities in Israel.
It is possible that Desh would have asked for significant changes to the bird after received and trying out the first bird (which would have been incorporated in the 2nd and 3rd birds). Now the first one which was the "Test/work horse" till now is heading back to the stables for some R&R, backrub and hair trimming. Now there would be through checking on the exterior, structural strength as well as electronics to gauge the attributes(for want of a better word) of the bird.
PratikDas wrote:The second sentence had to do with people calling for self censorship on BR when these photos are already public on airliners.net, flickr or other websites. So why shouldn't we discuss the missing antenna?
I doubt enemies are waiting for BR to discover photos on airliners.net or Google Earth. I'm pretty sure they're doing it for themselves. So, I don't think there's anything wrong in speculating on what might be going on.
I did "Self Censorship" to myself NOT YOUR POST saying let us not do further speculation till information is available on public domain. I had couple of theories but I refrained from airing it till I saw the flightglobal article today. At that point whe I made the comment, there was no information available except the Photo. Even the Photo didn't convey much information till Vishal posted more pictures (where the difference between the old photo and this new photo of KW-3551 became apparent). I did not police your post, nor even respond to you till now...There is no reason for you also to be a "self-made adminullahs" and police my posts.
Even after all this, whatever people have posted is only speculations and conjectures based on the info available hand. Nothing official from IAF/GOI or IAI about this "so called upgrade".
I haven't stopped anyone from posting anything. I've stopped people from stopping others if they don't have the authority to.
The FlightGlobal article I referred to is from 2010, nothing new. Your interest in limiting the scope of discussions in several threads is disconcerting.
Added later: Perhaps you haven't noticed that a lot of discussions in BR are speculations, and later on BR takes pride in guessing correctly when the information is made public. I'm not sure how long you've been following BR, but that is part of the culture. I don't see any reason to change it.
Last edited by PratikDas on 25 Jul 2011 02:55, edited 1 time in total.
What is a bit puzzling is that the photographer refers to the bird coming in from Rostov in Russia when in fact it could be directly from India. More than likely, it probably came from India (purely speculating), and the radome was removed by the IAF. There could be a number of reasons for this. It could be newer phased array elements in a new radome, or there are more significant non-radar related upgrades at IAI such as the airframe, avionics, EW suite and sensors, or a combination of all with a final upgrade and testing by the IAF within India. To me it appears as a significant upgrade being done as the sheet metal looks better for KW-3551 in the newer pictures, therefore it is an indication that integration of the Phalcon in to IAF doctrine is probably occurring at a a rapid pace. A complicated weapon system such as an AWACS takes years of user training, operation and maintenance to use effectively.
Alternatively, since the plane looks really shiny, it might have been that it flew to Israel and got its rotordome removed, then flew to Russia for some airframe repairs / maintenance. Then it flies back to Israel for the rotordome refit.
PratikDas wrote:Vishal, you've misunderstood my post. I was sincerely thanking you for posting the photo here.
It is very interesting that the KW-3551 is without it's antenna and absolutely relevant to this thread.
The second sentence had to do with people calling for self censorship on BR when these photos are already public on airliners.net, flickr or other websites.
So why shouldn't we discuss the missing antenna?
I doubt enemies are waiting for BR to discover photos on airliners.net or Google Earth.
I'm pretty sure they're doing it for themselves.
So, I don't think there's anything wrong in speculating on what might be going on.
I'd like to think, like Kakarat said, that it's an antenna upgrade!
Moscow, Aug 9 (PTI) Russia is planning to develop new generation airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft by 2016 as part of an ambitious modernisation plan for its armed forces, the Russian Air Chief today said.
"We are expecting to receive the A-100 AWACS on the Ilyushin Il-476 platform powered by the PS-90 engine for extended flight range," Colonel General Alexander Zelin announced at a news conference here. Unlike the present A-50 AWACS on Ilyushin Il-76 platform, the new aircraft will have advanced active phased array radar capable of detecting and tracking multiple airborne and land-based targets.
The Russian Air Force has around 20 A-50 mainstay AWACS planes equipped with the large Liana surveillance radar with its antenna in an over-fuselage rotodome and can control up to ten fighter aircraft for either air-to-air intercept or air-to-ground attack missions. "We will have the Il-476 platform by 2013-2014 and should be able to build this plane by 2016," Gen Zelin was quoted as saying by Interfax, the Russian non-governmental news agency.
India has acquired three A-50 AWACS fitted with Israeli Phalcon radar under a trilateral deal with Russia and Israel. India received the first A-50EI plane in May 2009 and the second in March 2010. It is expected that the third aircraft will be delivered by the end of the year and could acquire two more aircraft in addition to the initial deal signed in 2004.
^^^ This news about additional AWACS keep popping up at regular intervals. don't know where Desh will get additional IL-76 platforms from? nothing has been signed for this as per public domain sources, any Chaiwaala news on this?
The new desi system will be based on the EMB 145 platform. The system integration will be done by CABS. Beyond the existing Phalcon buy, no further systems will be bought from overseas.
We have been hearing news of additional 2-3 phalcone purchases. But the fund for the same have not been allocated by the GOI.
Pratyush wrote:The new desi system will be based on the EMB 145 platform. The system integration will be done by CABS. Beyond the existing Phalcon buy, no further systems will be bought from overseas.
We have been hearing news of additional 2-3 phalcone purchases. But the fund for the same have not been allocated by the GOI.
Are you sure? ACM Naik mentioned additional Phalcons in his NDTV interview with Nitin!!!
there will be addl falcons per stray media reports. might take a while and feature new airframe, radar and C3I developments. just a matter of finding the funding for it among other big ticket items.
in a full blown cagematch with PRC we'd need 2 for northern sector, 2 for eastern to control the airspace 24x7 backed by the CABS AEW in central, west , bay of bengal and reserve.
methinks we will do a combo deal for 12 x A330-MRTT and 4-6 x A330 nuova-Phalcons . the IL76MD punches below its weight in the tanker game - and we have big hungry MKIs , MRCAs and PAKFAs coming in that will come to mother and guzzle lot of fuel for long endurance missions. no shame on the IL76 , but A330 is clearly another category of big beast.
we need large boned Ma hens that can top up these big beasts hauling heavy payloads and unleash them on 2000km radius strike missions.
Shrinivasan wrote:
Are you sure? ACM Naik mentioned additional Phalcons in his NDTV interview with Nitin!!!
That he has, but we have not yet seen the budgeting for the purchase. That is what makes me question the additional purchase. Moreover, The rational is also not clear for the purchase as the desi system is nearing completion.
Shrinivasan wrote: Are you sure? ACM Naik mentioned additional Phalcons in his NDTV interview with Nitin!!!
That he has, but we have not yet seen the budgeting for the purchase. That is what makes me question the additional purchase. Moreover, The rational is also not clear for the purchase as the desi system is nearing completion.
Desi systems based on Embraer platform are woefully shortlegged. We need something in the class of a P8i for patrolling along our northern border with the dragon and its piglet along the west. I like Singha's suggestion!!!
The decision WRT the endurance and coverage is to be taken by the Pros, we (The chair force walas ) can think in terms of what we want. The pros have decided what they are comfortable with, when, it comes to the AEW arena. Limitations of the system if any are known to them, so that's good enough for me. Moreover, the radar is and the processors are Indian even if the platform is not.
That to me is the most important aspect of the whole project.
PS;- I thought that the Emb platform for the IAF was capable of IFR.
One can see Desi Jugaad at work, Instead of building new hangars for the Phalcons, SDREs just added a stub portion to the existing hangars to accommodate the bigger birds and their Radome.
One can see Desi Jugaad at work, Instead of building new hangars for the Phalcons, SDREs just added a stub portion to the existing hangars to accommodate the bigger birds and their Radome.
I hope we are not being shekel wise and rouble foolish. This could be a typical sarkari babu's idea. Of course no harm if we can save some dough
Shrinivasan wrote: One can see Desi Jugaad at work, Instead of building new hangars for the Phalcons, SDREs just added a stub portion to the existing hangars to accommodate the bigger birds and their Radome.
I hope we are not being shekel wise and rouble foolish. This could be a typical sarkari babu's idea. Of course no harm if we can save some doughK
There is also a Chankian explanation, the same hangar can be reused for IL-76, IL78 and Phalcons, also they don't waste valuable apron / taxi-way space by building more hangars. Also setting up different hangars with different dimensions is like painting a target sign on them. Above all, an inexpensive option!!! my 0.0002 paisa.
Nonetheless, the parties are gearing up for making another contract for three more aircraft. In particular, Rosoboronexport Deputy Director General Victor Komardin mentioned this at the Bangalore airshow this February. He said the delivery of the third A-50EI “will be followed by another three”.“We are waiting for the request”,Mr. Komardin said in February.To manufacture next three A-50EIs, there is a plan to use TAPC’s backlog of Il-76TD airlifters that will be refined, completed and fitted with PS-90A-76 engines by Beriev and then equipped with the radar system and tested in Israel as it was done under the first contract. However, a final configuration of the deal will hinge on TAPC’s preparedness and the Uzbek government’s decision to take part in fulfilling a new export contract.
This means that the three A-50s will be made with pre-existing and unsold Il-76 airframes in Tashkent if possible, but no contract is signed yet.
well we fervently hope IAF gets 3 more phalcons as quickly as possible. even if slightly used RuAF boneyard airframes can be salvaged and zero-houred back to life...
Singha wrote:well we fervently hope IAF gets 3 more phalcons as quickly as possible. even if slightly used RuAF boneyard airframes can be salvaged and zero-houred back to life...
The new Phalcon will have to come on a different platform. May be an Airbus or the Boeing. Rather then the IL. I also feet that original Phalcon on the IL platform was also a mistake. Perhaps on a civilian platform would have been different.
If you need to cover one sector continuously & maintain one orbit then you require 3 airframes and 5 sets of crews. Multiply that with the number of sectors to be covered and you will have an accurate count of how many Airframes are required in the Indian context.
to have a semblance of comfort by covering ladakh-HP, sikkim-bhutan and arunachal-assam on 24x7 basis and Assuming it all works flawlessly and no downtime for the fleet, minimum 9 airframes needed.
we'd probably need another 3 as backup to cover downtimes.
I doubt we can afford 12 such full feature AWACS, we might get another 3 phalcons and around 10-15 CABS AEW to tide things over until we are more cash rich.
Would be nice if tarmak/broadsword does a story on the CABS AEW, it was supposed to have been flight tested by now with 2012 for integration of the AAAU and analysis of performance
