Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

[A_Gupta]

Look up
The Indian diaspora in Central Asia and its trade, 1550-1900
By Scott Cameron Levi

e.g., in books.google.com

for some accounts of the number of Indians transported into slavery in Central Asia.

[shiv]

shiv ji, I beg to differ on the what were the women doing hypothesis. non muslim women (not only from India) were taken as sex slaves and had a status lower than even muslim women, which is quite low to begin with and at par with domestic animals. any children they bore were not raised by the mothers. I am afraid we are applying our modern ideas to a society that played outside those rules.

Actually Rahul the issue of numbers of women cannot be settled by either argument - ie it cannot be settled by saying "xyz women must have been abducted" or the theory that the "women would have done abc"

The issue can only have more light thrown on it by indirect evidence or inference. Genetic studies would be helpful but they are not. As far as I know they only show a mix - which is to be expected anyway. Population mixing has been going on for over 10,000 years and in front of that figure a few centuries is not much.

What I am asking questions about is the humongous numbers that are quoted. A lot of these invaders were on horseback. Taking back women and men in such large numbers is likely to have left some memory/physical trail - from escaped or abandoned people. What is being said here is that the invaders and their Islam was so strict and efficient that after abduction all traces of the original, language and culture were gone. That means that all abducted women who bore children were all put into some systematic urban machine of indoctrination where all traces of the past were expunged. Now how would that have been done? It is more likely that a a significant number of "500,000" women or "200,000" women were taken by soldiers and others of generally modest means. Some are likely to have escaped or been abandoned. And how far could they have gone?

When you look at people taken as slaves or migrants there is usually a "trail". Slaves tend to get bunched up at transit points and ports. Apart from Pakistan itself as an example of where slaves from interior India were taken where else in central Asia does the trail lie? A lot of these invaders came to settle because the land in India is kind. Pakistan is the western edge of that land, so I propose that all these slaves were not "spirited away" to faraway lands to melt indistinguishably into some tribal culture - but probably got as far as Pakistan. Now Pakistan retains a huge dose of Indic traditions and is an enormous "smoking gun" to say where the kidnapped people went.

There were no great highways or urban centers or transport. Groups of slaves would have been tied together and made to walk if they were in huge numbers. Ones and two may have been taken on horseback. Walking slaves are unlikely to have covered more than 20 - 30 km per day and that too only or a few days and there was no "logistacs chain of food and water"

So if a huge number of slaves was taken there should be some of trail/ evidence of where they went and how far. My guess is that Pakistan is as far as they got, mostly. Pakistan is a modern day remnant of the kidnapping, rape and abduction of islamic hordes. No need to go searching for kidnapped Indians in central Asia - they are haunting us right next door. They look like us. Smell like us but imagine that they are like their nameless rapine fathers. They have inherited their mothers' language and culture and the religion of their looting fathers.

The Indian civilizational memories of rape, abduction, looting and forced conversions fits in very well if we look at Pakistan as how far they got. The man would rape and produce the kid after one or a few ejaculations. The mother cooked the food and spoke the language. The son grows up to play his father's role. The food and language (Punjabi, Sindhi) come from mummy. The rest comes from the religion of peace.

[member_19686]

So if a huge number of slaves was taken there should be some of trail/ evidence of where they went and how far. My guess is that Pakistan is as far as they got, mostly. Pakistan is a modern day remnant of the kidnapping, rape and abduction of islamic hordes. No need to go searching for kidnapped Indians in central Asia - they are haunting us right next door. They look like us. Smell like us but imagine that they are like their nameless rapine fathers. They have inherited their mothers' language and culture and the religion of their looting fathers.

Well except for the fact that numerous Muslim chronicles refer to Hindu slaves in Central Asia, try to get hold of that paper by Levi.

Check:

http://musingsofhh.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... tral-asia/

We also know that Hindu slaves used to be transported by land through the Hindu Kush where great numbers used to die due to the cold, hence the name Hindu Kush (Hindu Killer) for those mountains according to Ibn Batuta. Check:

http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2010/1 ... -kush.html

This was not unique to India, the Ottoman Sultans used to do the same from all over their vast Empire and many a Sultan had a Christian woman probably captured from the Balkans, Ukraine or Greece as his mother. Yet these Christian women just like their Hindu counterparts seem to have been unable to inculcate any of their values into their sons or slacken their thirst for Jihad against kafirs.

[KLNMurthy]

@shiv please look at historical record of african slaves transported across atlantic ocean to north america (so called middle passage). A lot of research is available on this. The numbers, forced mass deprivation of language and cultural identity, as well as "wastage" in the journey all suggest that there is nothing incongruous about large scale enslavement and transportation that are alleged to have happened in the subcontinent.

As a matter of interest there is a direct historical link between arab slaver activity in africa and slave trade by europeans. I suspect the technology of large scale slavery was adapted by post dark-ages europe from the muslim world along with a lot of other stuff.

I'll stop the OT now.

[shiv]

Kaffir alleles? wtf are "kaffir alleles"?

[shiv]

@shiv please look at historical record of african slaves transported across atlantic ocean to north america (so called middle passage). A lot of research is available on this. The numbers, forced mass deprivation of language and cultural identity, as well as "wastage" in the journey all suggest that there is nothing incongruous about large scale enslavement and transportation that are alleged to have happened in the subcontinent.

As a matter of interest there is a direct historical link between arab slaver activity in africa and slave trade by europeans. I suspect the technology of large scale slavery was adapted by post dark-ages europe from the muslim world along with a lot of other stuff.

Of course it happened in the subcontinent. But it went as far as Pakistan. Perhaps a bit further into Afghanistan. Those hordes came in and over the centuries filled the area called Pakistan up with their offspring. But they could not get rid of the language or culture fully.

Even African culture could not be expunged by transporting them to Yamrika. Neither could their civilizational memories. How come it is being proposed on here that one of the most powerful and long lasting cultures in the history of mankind - Indic culture, had people kidnapped and the culture was totally deleted/rubbed out and replaced by the culture of Islamic hordes after abduction. That sounds like rubbish to me. Pakistan is your real live example of where the abducted women went. Evidently a few went further and maybe many died in transit. But the idea that the culture was killed and replaced is too much of a stretch. it didn't happen in South America. It didn't happen to Africans. But Hindus just gave up their culture after rape? Great. Speaks volumes about Indic culture.

[putnanja]

Shiv, if you look at US, there is very little evidence of any african culture/practises remaining now. Most are christians, speak english and their culture has been shaped more by their experiences as slaves rather than what they brought over from Africa.

I would say that similar thing might have happened to the hindu women too. If they were beaten up and kept inside house, and the children grew up with the idea that women needs to be inside and man's word was final, there is really no surprise that the culture died out within a generation or two. If they were free people, the culture would have flourished, as can be seen in SE Asia etc. However, if they were under lots of restrictions, and the children brough up under strict islamic teachings, then I doubt whether the women could have done much to propagate their beliefs and culture.

[shiv]

Shiv, if you look at US, there is very little evidence of any african culture/practises remaining now. Most are christians, speak english and their culture has been shaped more by their experiences as slaves rather than what they brought over from Africa.

Not true. Their music is distinctive. It has added to what is now being touted as "American culture" (which is like Pakistani culture - a hybrid) Their accent and language and idiom are distinctive. In fact that guy Haley's book "Roots" written in the last 30-40 years was based on memories handed down in families.

[member_19686]

Kaffir alleles? wtf are "kaffir alleles"?

Here kaffir refers to Indian slaves.

As for allele, you may start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allele

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics

Now you may have your pet theory but there is plenty of evidence contradicting it and instead of going on about it like a broken record, may be you should try reading the paper A_Gupta has provided as a reference.

KLN Murthy there was prior to the Atlantic slave trade a flourishing slave trade of Africans conducted by Muslims as I am sure you are aware. Yet how many Black people do you see today in Iraq and how much of their culture do you find in Iraq?

According to some of the "logic" being peddled here, ergo this must have never happened never mind the tomes of writings by contemporary Muslims recording these things.

The Muslims would castrate the male slaves from Africa & this is one of the reasons why you simply don't see that many "Black" people today in places like Iraq.

[Rahul M]

shiv ji, distinctive but not unmistakably african in any way. isolation and/or segregation would anyway create distinctive language, music etc, just as it has for white americans.


>> Actually Rahul the issue of numbers of women cannot be settled by either argument - ie it cannot be settled by saying "xyz women must have been abducted" or the theory that the "women would have done abc"

I have no stand on the numbers. just that this phenomenon did happen and in significant numbers to have been mentioned by more than one source. I do not know what that significant number is. males would have been mostly castrated and used as expendable soldiers thus preventing any spread of the 'inferior' gene.

[shiv]

As for allele, you may start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allele

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics

Now you may have your pet theory but there is plenty of evidence contradicting it and instead of going on about it like a broken record, may be you should try reading the paper A_Gupta has provided as a reference.

Which is the part that describes "Kaffir alleles"?

It t is so easy to get people's knickers in a twist by questioning their own pet beliefs. I see poeple instantly playing victim and saying "You are like Pakis and Islampasand people and are a denier of Hindu genocide". Balderdash. This is the broken record excuse that i am exposed to by people who post nonsense and are unable answer simple questions posed to them and think that linguistic aggression is a good way of covering up holes in knowledge.

[KLNMurthy]

@shiv It is not my claim that Hindu slavery was implemented exactly like African slavery.m My claim is much more modest: the available sourced accounts of the magnitude of Hindu slavery can't be dismissed as false based on imagined physical difficulties. The accounts are at least plausible, based on solid data about african slavery that has higher magnitude than the one claimed for Hindu slavery.

BTW, Haley's work was mostly based on official records, the family lore was extremely sparse and vague when it came to the african roots. And mostly, stereotypical "black" accent in the US reflects southern USA roots and low level of education, not african accent. Though there are distinct african remnants like the gullah creole.

We don't know for a fact that some Indic trace remnants don't exist in pockets of muslim lands. The whole place is a cesspit of barbarity and ignorance; do you think they would be studiously researching such things?

[shiv]

shiv ji, distinctive but not unmistakably african in any way..

No Rahul. Check your facts.

[shiv]

We don't know for a fact that some Indic trace remnants don't exist in pockets of muslim lands. The whole place is a cesspit of barbarity and ignorance; do you think they would be studiously researching such things?

Gosh are you saying that Indic remnants do not exist in Pakistan which is otherwise a cesspit of barbarity and ignorance? Pakistan is THE living example of what invading Islamic hordes from Central and west Asia did. If there are examples further out it is not implausible, but the numbers are likely to be smaller and hence the Indic influence there is smaller.

I am certain people were abducted and taken to Central Asia/Africa. But when you look at numbers like 500,000 I suggest hat 450,000 stayed to be raped in Pakistan. 50,000 went further.

[member_19686]

As for allele, you may start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allele

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics

Now you may have your pet theory but there is plenty of evidence contradicting it and instead of going on about it like a broken record, may be you should try reading the paper A_Gupta has provided as a reference.

Which is the part that describes "Kaffir alleles"?

It t is so easy to get people's knickers in a twist by questioning their own pet beliefs. I see poeple instantly playing victim and saying "You are like Pakis and Islampasand people and are a denier of Hindu genocide". Balderdash. This is the broken record excuse that i am exposed to by people who post nonsense and are unable answer simple questions posed to them and think that linguistic aggression is a good way of covering up holes in knowledge.

The only one's who has his panties in a twist is you, you first made a statement to which many members have presented contrary evidence and instead of reading or refuting the evidence you go on spouting hot air.

Good going "Dr" shiv.

The lahori logic is quiet strong with you.

[Theo_Fidel]

Not all males were castrated.

Large groups of highly skilled males, 10,000+ by some accounts, were carried off to serve the invaders grand plans. Much of Samarkand was built by this labor which never returned. This forced brain drain caused problems when it was time for reconstruction.

Shiv....

....Is right. Black music is distinctively African. The call-response pattern of Black Gospel or Rap music is derived from deep African American plantation songs and traced to tribal songs in Africa sung to this day. The cross rhythm pattern is very definitely derived from African sources. Not only that African American children's stories, such as Uncle Rhemus stories originally told in Gullah Language all are very distinctly African in origin. One could go on....

[shiv]

Look up
The Indian diaspora in Central Asia and its trade, 1550-1900
By Scott Cameron Levi

e.g., in books.google.com

for some accounts of the number of Indians transported into slavery in Central Asia.

http://books.google.com/books/about/The ... VkNBge8mIC

The Indian diaspora in Central Asia and its trade, 1550-1900

Scott Cameron Levi
2002 - 319 pages
Based on original research in the archives of Uzbekistan, this book surveys the early modern commercial relations between India and Central Asia and examines the emergence, economic function, social organization, and decline of an Indian merchant diaspora. This diaspora consisted of tens of thousands of Indian merchant-moneylenders living in communities dispersed across Central Asia, Afghanistan, Iran, the Caucasus and much of Russia.The book illustrates how these diaspora merchants utilized their position as agents of heavily capitalized, caste-based Indian family firms to finance transregional trade and complex systems of rural credit and industrial production. It concludes with an analysis of the Russian colonial administration's policies toward the Indian merchants, and explains how these policies brought about the decline of the diaspora in Central Asia.

The Google books result says (I type manually)

Were it not for the...the author's repetitive expressions of astonishment at the Indians' commercial vitality and dominance of the moneylending business, the Indian diaspora communities in Central Asia might be dismissed as a historical anomaly of litle significance"

I have found nothing in the link to say that "kaffir alleles" in Central Asia were from abducted slave women taken from India. There were traders there that were eliminated by the murderous Islamic hordes. But where is the reference to abduction and slavery? I suspect it went as far as Pakistan. The Islamic rapine abductors existed all right - but they were certainly not going as far as Uzbekistan/Tajikistan. Pakistan was the nearby fountain of "India" from where abductions could be done. The islamic memes of Pakistanis cause them to deny that anything wrong ever occurred to their ancestors. But Pakis may have Gengis Khan's genes, but they certainly retain Indic culture which the invaders could not wipe out despite the fact that Pakistan itself is the living example of 1000 years of subjugation. Not some other parts of India.

1000 years of subjugation is true. But it was not Pakis subjugating India. It was the area called Pakistan that has seen 1000 years of subjugation. And in those 1000 years the language cuisine and music and other Indic cultural icons were not expunged.

[Rahul M]

Theo saar, majority of male slaves from whichever source were castrated. that didn't prevent them being employed in fruitful work for their masters.

plantation slaves had completely different social dynamics. even though subjugated and denied rights the families mostly stayed together and could maintain a semblance of culture and tradition. their situation is similar to the Indian diaspora in places like the windies. that can't be compared with individual slaves employed in households isolated completely from their own culture.

>> No Rahul. Check your facts.
could be, I admit I am not very knowledgeable on this issue.

[shiv]

The only one's who has his panties in a twist is you, you first made a statement to which many members have presented contrary evidence and instead of reading or refuting the evidence you go on spouting hot air.

Good going "Dr" shiv.

The lahori logic is quiet strong with you.

Thanks. This reply makes the "evidence" that you post about "kaffir alleles" extremely credible and irrefutable.

"kaffir allelles" indeed. From abducted Indian women in central Asia.

[Theo_Fidel]

This is OT but less than 1% of Whites owned slaves. The vast majority of slaves were purchased specifically to work on Plantations. They were purchased individually. And no they were not kept in distinct family groups, even the term 'family' is quite laughable despite recent offensive Republican claims. They were mixed and matched and sold as the owners pleased. The Gullah Language reflects this and shows words from over 2 dozen African languages. All the way from West to deep Central Africa.

WRT the castration I may be wrong but you would never castrate a skilled craftsman doing delicate hand work. Affects the physiology of the individual quite heavily. But that may explain why Samarkand looks so hideous.

[Airavat]

After I read the Parshuram ji , SBajwaji and others wrt Islamist abduction of Kafir women , my blood is boiling.I feel like catching hold of an islamist and then smashing his head with a boulder.I just cant imagine how much of history has been suppressed by our leftist historians.

To all the Pakis who are reading this(Paklurks) , we will avenge all the wrongs committed by your ancestors in time.

They have provided very graphic accounts no doubt, but quite Punjab-centric. In Rajasthan we have different memories, because the "avenging of wrongs" on medieval Islamist rulers had commenced much earlier. For instance Mughal invader Babur's description of the power of Maharana Sanga, the Rajput ruler of Mewar:"Now the sway of the accursed Pagan, May the Almighty consign him to perdition at the day of judgement, was so extensive in the country of Hind, that before the rising of the sun of the imperial dominion, and before our attaining the Khilafat and empire yet the standards of the heathen streamed in two hundred cities inhabited by people of the faith; whereby the destruction of mosques and holy places had ensued, and the women and children of the Musulmans of these towns and cities have been made captives."

Inscriptions of the Rajput rulers leave us in no doubt that they captured women of their Muslim enemies, but wider slave taking from the common population was absent, since there were no slave markets in India. Such women were called yavanis and were made to join akharas (dancing schools) in Rajasthan. Similar examples will be found from southern and eastern India.

Apart from "hitting back", Muslim-on-Muslim violence was quite widespread in the medieval era. In the internecine wars among Turk tribes, the women and children of the defeated were sold as slaves in West Asia by the victors. It mattered little that they were fellow Turks. Succession wars within Muslim states were marred by bloodshed and enslavement of the defeated. The principle is that if you condone slavery and bloodshed against infidel enemies, it will find its way back into your own society.

[Airavat]

The islamic memes of Pakistanis cause them to deny that anything wrong ever occurred to their ancestors. But Pakis may have Gengis Khan's genes, but they certainly retain Indic culture which the invaders could not wipe out despite the fact that Pakistan itself is the living example of 1000 years of subjugation. Not some other parts of India.

1000 years of subjugation is true. But it was not Pakis subjugating India. It was the area called Pakistan that has seen 1000 years of subjugation. And in those 1000 years the language cuisine and music and other Indic cultural icons were not expunged.

+1

[Singha]

the rather sparse population of the CAR states , iran and iraq even today after all modern science is available indicates the vast numbers mentioned in the 'namahs' were inflated and that mortality was high and fertility low among those that were taken there. imo the bulk were taken to TSP and Afghanistan and from there skilled workers were taken further away to places like samarkhand for construction projects. maybe eastern part of iran also.

did the looted states of india suffer from serious population decline and social collapse after these invasions and mass abductions of what would be the most healthy working males and females ? after WW1 france was bled white of males and same for russian and ukraine after WW2...the effects tend to last decades. I wonder if the post-invasion scenarios were documented by native indian writers?

[shiv]

Stories of rape and murder in India by Islamic hordes are perfectly true. But it is also true that the first parts of "India" that faced the brunt of these hordes was current day Pakistan. The people in that area who were murdered did not live to tell any tales. The tales were related by those who survived and made their way to safety elsewhere in India.

As for those who were not murdered - those who were taken as slaves or as concubines and converted. - they remained largely in the area known as Pakistan. Pakistan is not small and its western fringes really are near central Asia. It was "India" at one time. So rapes of Indian women and abductions are true - but not to Tajikistan,. Uzbekistan. A woman abducted from the banks of the Indus and taken 200 km west is still "abducted. rape, and gone". She does not have to be in Dushanbe. She could remain in what is now Pakistan.

Indian culture did not disappear from current day Pakistan despite 1000 years of slavery, rape and conversion by force. The fact that these things happened are denied by Pakistanis, who are now trying to wipe out that culture.

Going back to Sushupti's "Voiceofdharma" link that stated this discussion
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/mssmi/ch3.htm

And now our second question - what did the victors do with slaves captured in large crowds? In the days of the early invaders like Muhammad bin Qasim and Mahmud Ghaznavi, they were mostly sold in the Slave Markets that had come up throughout the Muslim dominated towns and cities.

Absolutely NOTHING contradictory here. You abduct a woman or man from Lahore and you sell him in Peshawar or Kabul. It is still all India. Not Arabia or Central Asia. All those hundreds of thousands of abductions/rapes did take place, but the "trail of culture" is not missing. You cannot wipe out culture that easily. Mostly those raped women and slaves did not go to central Asia. That trail of culture points to Pakistan. Pakistan is the daughter of an India raped by Islamic hordes.

[Rahul M]

Theo saar, that is exactly what I was saying, plantation slaves would live together and thus maintain their culture. this was not possible for non-muslim slaves.

I do not know what republicans say (not that I care) but family units did exist, after a fashion. for example
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/slaveauction.htm
from a 1859 slave auction

The rules of the auction stipulated that the slaves would be sold as "families" - defined as a husband and wife and any offspring. However, there was no guarantee that this rule would be adhered to in all cases.

'Elisha,' chattel No. 5 in the catalogue, had taken a fancy to a benevolent looking middle-aged gentleman, who was inspecting the stock, and thus used his powers of persuasion to induce the benevolent man to purchase him, with his wife, boy and girl, Molly, Israel and Sevanda, chattels Nos. 6, 7 and 8. The earnestness with which the poor fellow pressed his suit, knowing, as he did, that perhaps the happiness of his whole life depended on his success, was interesting, and the arguments he used were most pathetic. He made no appeal to the feelings of the buyer; he rested no hope on his charity and kindness, but only strove to show how well worth his dollars were the bone and blood he was entreating him to buy.

[shiv]

Take any Pakistani and check his genetic make up. You will find that he is full of kaffir alleles. But Pakistanis are not Indians.

So where were the abducted Indian women and slaves taken? They were taken to Pakistan. Pakistan is composed of the descendants of Indian women raped and abducted by Islamic invaders ike Ghaznavi and Ghauri. You don't have to go looking for proof in Central Asia.

[Theo_Fidel]

One small issue Shiv.

Way back then most of present day Pakistan was a desert. Before irrigation & all. The population would have been in the 2-3 million range at most. Something like 500,000 slaves showing up would be a big event genetically & population wise.

[Rahul M]

>> So rapes of Indian women and abductions are true - but not to Tajikistan,. Uzbekistan.

not too sure of that. if Indians were being taken across hindukush mountains they were certainly not being taken to what is now bakistan. of course pakistan and other centres of islamic power in India would be the major destinations later.

[Singha]

imo think of it logistically. suppose the namahs were true and a horde of 100,000 slaves, men, women and kids were rounded up and marched from delhi to khyber pass which I think is around 700km.
you need to move them fast because the slower you go, the more food and water you need, more the chances of bandits stealing some of the slaves and so on. but the faster you go more people get exhausted and drop dead. how many men are there who can walk 30km/day for three weeks continuously - very few. almost no person without physical conditioning can make such long haul treks. the daily food needed to feed 100,000 people doing such rigorous trek and keeping them fed enough to march fast is huge and if the march is through the pre-british pakistan with only the rivers and no canal based irrigation of rich crops, the pickings would be quite lean...a bunch of ancient cities along the indus, peshawar and khyber trading posts.

even horse borne cavalry armies had quite a task to come across afghanistan and pakistan to raid today's north india. the plunderer of somnath faced issues crossing the thar and sindh deserts with veteran soldiers.

perhaps the last big horde of infantry army that showed up at our gates in good order was Alaksindr in 324 BC ? this was a veteran army not a horde of captured civilians though. far fitter and better organized logistically. the CAR raiding armies tended to be horse and camel borne ?

imo smaller numbers than the namahs mention might have been taken away across afghanistan to CAR, probably skilled craftsmen, skilled farmers, choice women, the best of what was captured. the rest were probably sold off to the afghani tribes and paki settlements enroute..or gifted in large numbers to vassal chieftains on the periphery of the victors empire

[niran]

One small issue Shiv.

Way back then most of present day Pakistan was a desert. Before irrigation & all. The population would have been in the 2-3 million range at most. Something like 500,000 slaves showing up would be a big event genetically & population wise.

this half a million figure looks a wee bit dodgy, say a man needs a kg of grain/day to survive the trip and be sold in central Asia that would be half a million kilos of grains/day add to that water
fuel and utensil to cook, cooks to cook men to distribute the food, and a place to unload the digested food how in the name of stinking hairy mussarraf mighty Gaznavi managed that, mind you have left out the pios fauji and animals out of the equation, in those days the trip to central
Asia would have taken around a year on vigorous traveling speed.
to put it in prospective half a million of grain would need a time span of a decade to produce in conditions prevalent during those days, so most probably it must have been few thousand, and
the figures inflated to save H & D of the most pious jihadi gaaznavi.

[Rahul M]

those areas were not exactly barren, the landscape was dotted by numerous forts with stored food supplies which the invaders controlled. the number of prisoners might not have been 100,000 per raid, even 5,000 is a large number.

[Singha]

exactly. hyperbole and lying is a ancient practise by the royal historians of islamic and sinic lands.

there is no way in hell anyone could even arrange 100,000 kg of grain and megalitres of water in sheekskin bladders EVERY DAY for a period of months needed to reach central asia across lands which to this day are dry and highly unproductive in agri terms. the sultan would have a hard enough time arranging for the luggage train to feed his troop of 15-50k cavalry soldiers , their horses and the 2-3 orderlies needed to take care of each horse. and remember these TFTA persian and arabic horses needed a superb diet of soup, mutton fat, dried fruit, semolina wheat boild grain and what not and you need firewood lots of it to cook for a marching army.

think of what it took to move 100,000 US army men a few 100 km across the iraqi desert.....a giant logistical tail which only the great khan can manage...

a few 100 if any trophies like choice women (princesses and daughters of chieftains), elite craftsmen, writers etc might have been taken so far but thats not the shakinah the historians were told to write up.

[shiv]

One small issue Shiv.

Way back then most of present day Pakistan was a desert. Before irrigation & all. The population would have been in the 2-3 million range at most. Something like 500,000 slaves showing up would be a big event genetically & population wise.

No dispute whatsoever. All we need to do is rearrange the known facts/postulates in a more credible fashion.

Even today, if you ask an illiterate rustic how far away 200 km is - he will likely say "very far away". For a fisherman in TamilNadu - and abduction to Sri Lanka a few score km away is still "foreign land"

The raids and abductions could well have been into Rajasthan, Gujarat, Indian Punjab. The abductees were taken across the Indus river to settlements not far from the Indus in present day Pakistan - maybe 200 to 300 km from where they were kidnapped.

This explanation (I provide no proof) fits in with all the postulates including the objection I raised:
1. the abductions occurred
2. It could have been in large numbers
3. With large numbers, the culture could not have been wiped out that easily - it remained as a "culture trail" in current day Pakistan

There is no genetic or cultural contradiction here.

Here is a map that shows a line 300 km from the present day Indian border. The map is rotated. An abduction to a place 300 km away is significant. But still in current day Pakistan

[Murugan]

This beats me completely :

How come bamian buddha and other buddhist statues ets survived till 21st century in the land of ghaznavids and ghurids

[Aditya_V]

This beats me completely :

How come bamian buddha and other buddhist statues ets survived till 21st century in the land of ghaznavids and ghurids

See the amount of explosives which took days to install to destroy them (don't go by media that some illiterate Taliban did it, it was TSP army engineers who planted the explosives). They were too huge to destroy without modern techniques. and stuff like camphor etc. which were available in Mathura was not available in Afganistan.

[shiv]

This beats me completely :

How come bamian buddha and other buddhist statues ets survived till 21st century in the land of ghaznavids and ghurids

Because they were so big that they required dynamite to destroy and the Ghaznavids descendants needed US funding via Pakistan to get technology like ladder and dynamite.

[member_19686]

Hindus beyond the Hindu Kush: Indians in the Central Asian Slave Trade

Scott C Levi (2002)

Now there is something to read "dr".

Swamy, you have not read it yourself which makes your oral frothing even more fruitless. I have already posted excerpts from that source. The Indians were traders and money lenders. If you can get beyond the need to attempt worthless personal barbs and actually point out where that ref speaks of Indian slave genes I will actually thank you rather than laugh at your barely suppressed rage. A lot of people get angry with me on this forum for things I say because I say things that are bound to make people angry. Mostly they are not personal - but people do take them personally. But I enjoy it immensely when people tie themselves up in knots in anger and will do little to let them off unless they make a credible point.

I am sure you can actually dig out references to "Kaffir alleles" - or at least "Indian genes" in central Asia from slave trade. If you produce any references I will read them. You have not managed to do that except for getting angry at being told that "kaffir allele" is an absolutely stupid "I've got a chip on my shoulder" type of expression that is asking to be trashed by even a half-literate ally of Romila Thapar. Why post a link that is begging to be trashed and then get angry when it is trashed? Above all why take it personally? Are you the author? Why not post the info that you believe is available as quotes?

Really, let's see what the author says in that paper:

Demand was especially high for skilled slaves, and India's comparatively larger and more advanced textile industry
and agricultural production, and its magnificent imperial architecture, demonstrated to its neighbours that skilled labour was abundant in the subcontinent.8

Because of their identification in Muslim societies as kafirs, "non-believers", Hindus were especially in demand in the early modern Central Asian slave markets.12 They were by no means, however,
the only ethnic or religious group present in large numbers.

Despite ample evidence demonstrating the presence of a considerable population of Indian slaves in medieval and
early modern Central Asia, this aspect of the Central Asian slave trade has received much less attention. A
survey of available sources reveals that a Bukharan waqfnama (a letter indicating a religious endowment) written in 1326 repeatedly lists Indian slaves together with slaves from various other parts of Asia.15 A similar document dating to 1489 from the archive of the great Naqshbandi Sheikh Khwaja Ahrar (1404-90) mentions a group of Indian slaves
working as agricultural labourers and artisans on an estate near Bukhara.16 Furthermore, the presence of Hindu slaves even among the Turkic pastoral groups in early modern Central Asia is mentioned in an account of the
Uzbek ruler Shibani Khan's victory over the Qazaq ruler Tanish Sultan.17 According to this account, in the winter of 1509-10, a fourteen-year-old Indian slave escaped from his cruel master in a Qazaq qishlaq (winter encampment) near the city of Turkestan and, while wandering through the steppe, fortuitously came across the encampment of Shibani Khan and informed the Uzbeks of the location of the enemy Qazaq qishlaq...

While travelling from Lahore to Kabul in 1581 the Portuguese Jesuit missionary Father Antonio Monserrate reported that one tribe in the Punjab, identified as the "Gaccares" (Ghakkars), had made mediating the trade of Indian slaves for Central Asian ("Turki) horses such a regular practice that they had even become associated with the proverb, "slaves from India, horses from Parthia".19 The Central Asian slave markets swelled with Indians following Shah Jahan's aborted annexation of Balkh in 1646-47...

Nearly a century earlier, Babur, the founder of the Mughal Empire, recorded coming across a colony of 200-300 households of Indian slaves forced by a descendant of Timur to relocate from near Multan to the banks of the Baran river, a tributary of the Kabul river in Afghanistan, where they were engaged in the
business of catching birds.27

While it is important to note that Firishta's history was written several centuries after the Ghaznavid period, his assertions are supported by the reports of contemporary observers. For example, in his early eventh-century
Tarikh al-Yamini, the Arab historian al-'Utbi recorded that in iooi the armies of Mahmud of Ghazna conquered
Peshawar and Waihand, "in the midst of the land of Hindustan", and captured some 100,000 youths.

Later, during the Delhi Sultanate period (1206-1555), references to the abundant availability of Indian slaves at low prices are common. This should be attributed primarily to the vast human resources of India, which boasted a much larger and denser population than its neighbours to the north and west.32

I only posted parts, people interested can access the paper and read it for themselves instead of hot air from certain "drs" on BR.

[RajeshA]

i think genetic studies show that they are almost identical to SDRE's with very limited TFTA infusions
so their elites are rape victim descendants and their mango's are terror victim convert descendants suffering from uber stockholm syndrome

As Rahul M ji once said, Pakis too were once elves and now they are just degenerate orks!

[parsuram]

Sri ji, re:

Alxander could be a demonic man with 2 horns on his forehead but he was a great strategist. He knew where to fight. He saw civilizational fault lines clearly. This is one talent that came to him naturally. Even today, international boundaries run through 80% of places where Alexander chose to fight. This was a BIG part of his success.

Another under reported event in Alexander's campaign in India is refusal of Persian troops to engage the Indians in direct fight. As far as they were concerned safety of Alexander was their sole duty. Fight was pretty much left to Macedonians.

Now, Sikandar may be a great hero for the greeks and any others who wish to treat him as such, but from an Indian point of view, he was a barbaric invader who came to India without any provocation, out of greed and ego, wanting to take what did not belong to him, and to impose his will and ideas on the people of India. Purshottam dispatched him on his way back to greece. The Greeks had an exagerated sense of "owning civilization", as if all other peoples were barbarians. Well, when it came to Egypt, Babylon, India and China, these could give the dam greeks detailed graduate courses in civilization. India had a civilization predating the greeks by over a thousand years. Indian civilization was spread over a huge sub continent, not bits of rocks sticking out of the sea. India had already established extensive transportation network of roads, bridges, water management etc. for hundreds of years before this barbarian came to India presuming to teach "civilization". Sidharth Gautam, the buddha had travelled the length and bredth of of India in peace, teaching his philosophy to intellectually developed populations. What had that sikandar to offer or contribute? Nada. His hanger ons such as Aesop ended up plagerising parts of the panchtantra as "his fables". so, in sum, I do not think Indians need to look upon sikandar as great in any way from strictly an Indian point of view. Yes, for the pakis, he a great "muslim conquoror" for whom they have made a statue. But then, the pakis have removed Chandragupt & Ashok from their history books.

Shiv ji: Re:

It would be a good game to catch some Paki suckers, make them pay for the blood test and find such genes so they can at once be proud of their Ayrab lineage while understanding that they are basically the product of rape. Need to watch out for Paki suckers in the news media who claim direct lineage to the past like this - so we can give them a history lesson of how SDRE genes got mixed up with the genes they carry.

actually, the most bstrdized of India's muslim populations are in the paki. They proudly refer to themselves as "Ashrafs" - being directly descendent from mummud -well, that means extensively bstrdized. There are also the "qureshis" - extensively bstrdized by members of the Quraish tribe of arabia. They wear these lables proudly, and most of them were in, or if not, they migrated to the paki lands. As after fall of the mughal empire, which, directly or indirectly supported most of India's muslim population, the muslims had nothing much to do to earn a living. Oh they were craftsmen and traders, but they got goods for trading through the empire. The better connected of them got jagirs - lands that they gave to share croppers, and so lived off of that income. It was not that they did not take to english education, they had not been educated before. so they basically sat around to get something for nothing as usual, passively or actively through minor acts of looting. that is pretty much what most of the pakis are doing or will be reduced to in the paki lands. What skills they have are rapidly becoming obsolite.The only means of material progress their bstrdizing fathers taught them was to loot and plunder. now they have no such means, so they have desperately been trying to cash in on their geographical location.

[shiv]

I only posted parts, people interested can access the paper and read it for themselves instead of hot air from certain "drs" on BR.

Thanks. Could you post a link to that paper?