Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 2011

[Prem]

Fault Dear Brutus is in us. Instead of Wounded Knee we have Weak Knee in Desh , So we are forced to hear the pure Poaktales told by bunch of idiots , full of sound and fury,meanaing nothing . We have to live with it, buy the time till the Khoosats are gone from the scene.

[GopiD]

Friends,

I have a few points to add to the recent Indo/US/Pak relationship.

In our country, we have a system where there is equal opportunity to every citizen, at least in theory, to lead the country and it doesn't matter if he is educated/civilized/knowledgeable or not. So, in essence, the system needs stability in it's foreign and national policies and this stability is provided by the babus.

In my opinion, we are focussing too much on MMS and too less on the real policy makers, BABUS. Thinking about the present economic slow down and the high inflation and the failure of MMS to play a constructive role as an economist, it leaves a lot to be desired about his capacity. Given this scenario, I very much doubt if he is really guiding the whole foreign policy of India.

In my opinion, its the BABUs again, especially our National Security Advisor and previous foreign secretary, Shivshankar Menon. It was during his tenure as foreign secretary, Thimpu happened and its during his tenure as NSA this is happening again in Malle. There are a few notable points in our foreign policy like improving relationship with Bangladesh, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Japan. These ties are essential for the future and these steps are being taken based on realpolitics and some cold calculations and only with Pakistan our policies are based on REEL-POLITICS (hoping to straighten the dog's tail with some super costly hair dryer and combs and keep our fingers crossed the dog doesn't die of its cancer).

I guess there has been a lot of pondering about our policy towards pak by the MEA and NSA babus and I guess they have come to the same conclusion as our KHAN brothers (maybe they are even blindly following khan's views). I.e., Pak is too big to be broken and when that happens, there might be a lot of global players hunting in our backyard which we don't want and also with all those loose nooks, a JDAM on us from the LET and its allies is a given. So the question if we want to keep the Indo-Pak relationship in the cold storage or not has only 2 choices. Either we take a risk and let pak slide into anarchy and face/manage the consequences thereafter or, though it might seem suicidal, help pak with trade and other things and let it float for a while and keep our fingers crossed that not only the dog's twisted tail with terrorism straightens, also the dog gets freed from it's skin and brain cancer. Also, the pressure from the khans to toe their line should be remembered. And I think our babus (SS Menon) have chosen to take the what-seems-to-be the less risky path of keeping the nutty nation afloat with some trade and easy visas etc and warm friendship.

Now, MMS and his everlasting love for Pak (especially due to his childhood fantasies) comes in handy for the babus to show as if the whole Indo-Pak saga is going on only due to MMS and cold calculations are nothing compared to the love MMS has for Pak. Of course, there is some weightage to MMS' views, but not all his views are of his own. I think whatever MMS leverage has in INDO-PAK relationship is not of his own but is rather given by the babus.

I think, Mr. SS Menon is not as an astute thinker as our good old K. Subrahmanyam was to advice the incumbent PM that it's “once in a lifetime opportunity to cut Pakistan into "MANY SIZES” and it must be seized....

Just my thoughts

[ramana]

GopiD, Think of MMS efforts as external support/lifeline to keep TSP from collapsing. The other one is US support/aid to keep them financially viable. The EU sponsored trade relief for textile exports is drop in the bucket. MFN when operationalised will give them a rope to keep afloat.

[Prem]

GopiD, Think of MMS efforts as external support/lifeline to keep TSP from collapsing. The other one is US support/aid to keep them financially viable. The EU sponsored trade relief for textile exports is drop in the bucket. MFN when operationalised will give them a rope to keep afloat.

Collapse of the Paki project of YQ but keeping the state in LO as no one knows what to do with them. They simply have to slug it out with civil war . In the meantime, neighbors will grab whatever they can Peacefully". Poak collapse should be oo our own time of choosing. Currently ,India is simply not ready to handle the Paki inbreds by the millions.

[atma]

Link between Deforestation and Talibanisation in the land of pure.

In 2010, it was declared a forest-deficient country because just 2.2 percent or about 1.7 million hectares (4.2 million acres) of its land mass is forested.

According to the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) Pakistan lost an average of 42,000 hectares of forest a year between 1990 and 2010.

At the current rate, Pakistan could lose half its remaining forest cover over the next decade or so, says the FAO.

"Three kinds of actors participated in that: the FDC working for timber mafia, local people and the Taliban, who cut a lot to buy weapons," he said.

"There are two kinds of timber mafias: the big ones, with a licence, and the local ones, people with no licence who bribe guards.

Numerous local residents said army trucks are seen transporting timber, but army spokesman Colonel Arif Mehmood in Swat told AFP he was "not aware" of the practice.

Others say the rate of deforestation has improved since the army restored control over the valley in July 2009. No department can provide statistics.

The Aryana Institute for Regional Research and Advocacy, a think tank, has also pointed to links between the timber mafia and Islamist militancy.

"Being shrewd investors, the timber mafia is believed to have spent part of its dividends to sponsor militancy. Huge sums are involved in the business, which has expanded to the hills bordering Afghanistan," it said in a 2009 report.

"They invest money and energy in Talibanisation, that is how they protect their illegal businesses at the expense of the state?s writ."

..

http://news.yahoo.com/father-mangroves- ... 31565.html

[abhishek_sharma]

India-Pak dialogue reset to pre-Mumbai terror attacks

Between the lines was an Indian acceptance that it could no longer hold the relationship hostage to Pakistan’s bringing the 26/11 perpetrators to justice and would have to be satisfied with symbolic and incremental moves by Islamabad on the terror front. This reflects an earlier Indian recognition that its 'don't talk' policy had run its course.

The real forward movement was on the trade front. Building on the momentum created by the granting of most-favoured nation status by Pakistan, India declared its intention to negotiate a preferential trade agreement with Pakistan. This was announced after the meetings of the PMs. Both expressed a hope that they would make progress on “core issues” that included terrorism and Kashmir.

Singh described Gilani as a "man of peace", a description that evoked sharp reactions in Delhi from the BJP.

As both leaders emerged after talks that included a 50-minute one-on-one at the private dining hall of a hotel here, they vowed to open a "new chapter" that placed the matrix of South Asia at the fore.

"The time has come to write a new chapter in the history of our relationship. And I am very happy that Prime Minister Gilani fully endorses this view… the next round of talks should be far more productive, far more result-oriented in bringing the two countries closer to each other than ever before," Singh said.

Gilani had earlier said, "I think the next round of the talks would be more constructive, more positive, and will open a new chapter in the history of both countries."

[abhishek_sharma]

Why does Pakistan behave like this ?: Pakistan Watch Blog

‘Enough proof in dossier to Pak’: Foreign Secretary

[devesh]

the Pakistan area was not a barren desert when the Islamics invaded. for that matter, even Afghanistan area wasn't a desert until the Timur invasions in the 14the century. the Sindhu civilization was thriving and most probably had a population much higher than 2-3 million. that seems too small to me. I'd say around 7-10 million likely. I'm kind of guessing here but 2-3 million is way too low.

[Rudradev]

Shiv's observations are accurate on at least a couple of things.

Afro-American and Afro-Caribbean culture is most definitely African in its origins. Much of what is known as "Latino/Hispanic" culture has strong and unmistakable African roots as well; after all, of all the 11 million slaves taken from Africa, only about 400,000 ended up in North America... the rest went to what is now Latin America and the Caribbean.

Yes, Afro-American culture was shaped by the Plantation experience but there's no doubt that in terms of spiritual beliefs for example, the veneration of Odishas (kul-devatas of West African tribes) has found its way into such practices as Santeria and Candomble that are part and parcel of Christianity as practiced in Latin America and the Caribbean. Yes, it has been an influence of subversion rather than domination, but the existence of an essentially African influence cannot be denied. Most of Latin American culture, in fact, is arguably far more African than it is "Spanish" in origin.

The Spanish presence in Central and South America at a mass level was restricted to institutions and agents of the Catholic religion and nothing much else; native populations were basically exterminated by colonial violence or (more often) because of exposure to foreign pathogens against which they lacked immunity. That left a labouring underclass which was overwhelmingly African. White people simply did not go to Latin America in large numbers until *much* later (as with the Italian immigration into Brazil in the late 19th/early 20th centuries.) By contrast, North America is much "whiter" in cultural terms, because relatively large numbers of European settlers came their to stay beginning in the 1600s.

Another thing: the Hindu Kush earned that name for a reason. Slave Trade, at the end of the day was a business venture; justified by Islamic Supremacist discourse in terms of rationalizing the suffering it caused, but it had to make sense in terms of shekels for it to continue. The Atlantic passage ended up killing a lot of African slaves, but the key is that enough of them survived to make it profitable... therefore it continued.

Not so with the transportation of Hindu slaves over those mountains. People who were involved in the slave trade lost money trying to send Hindus over the mountains. After all with each caravan, transportation, guards, logistics, transit fees to local warlords, food, etc. had to be arranged and paid for. If Hindus were going to die like flies on the mountains, what could justify the investment and trouble of moving them en masse to Central Asia? After all the goods have to reach if somebody is going to buy them. The appellation "Hindu Kush" was probably conceived by many a bitter, frustrated Islamic slave merchant on confronting his losses.

[Murugan]

Regarding Malik Kafur of Khambhat - His hindu name was chand ram.

The kingdom of Gujarat was established in 1396. Farhat-ul­Mulk, who had been appointed governor of the province by Firuz Shah, had long ceased to pay any heed to orders received from Delhi and the inhabitants groaned under his yoke. In 1391 Muhammad Shah, the youngest son of Firuz, appointed Zafar Khan to the government of Gujarat, and sent him to establish his authority there. The new governor was the son of a Rajput convert to Islam, Wajih-ul-Mulk of Didwana, governor of Nagaur.

The Muzaffarid dynasty were sultans of Gujarat in western India from 1391 to 1583. The founder of the dynasty was Zafar Khan Muzaffar (later Muzaffar Shah I) who was governor of Gujarat under the Delhi Sultanate. Zafar Khan's father Sadharan, was a Jat convert to Islam.

Indonesia became muslim for such reason - the rulers embraced islam and the whole nation became islamic.

[Prasad]

Amidst all this history, I'd like to ask something concerning more recent history. It is widely known about bibi's flight trip to take a shakeela cd for "deal readel's" viewing pleasure. Do we have a timeframe for transfer of ding-dong missiles that were then repainted with pindigenous green paint into gadha godhi missiles?

The reason for my question is, in Condi Rice's new book, she recounts discussing about North Korea's nuclear program. The president and advisors were talking about how to proceed talking with North Korea when intelligence 'drops a bombshell' about links between the north korean nuclear program and the a.q. khan network. But given the fact that a.q.khan had been tailed by them for long, I was confused.

[Airavat]

Regarding Malik Kafur of Khambhat - His hindu name was chand ram.

The kingdom of Gujarat was established in 1396. Farhat-ul­Mulk, who had been appointed governor of the province by Firuz Shah, had long ceased to pay any heed to orders received from Delhi and the inhabitants groaned under his yoke. In 1391 Muhammad Shah, the youngest son of Firuz, appointed Zafar Khan to the government of Gujarat, and sent him to establish his authority there. The new governor was the son of a Rajput convert to Islam, Wajih-ul-Mulk of Didwana, governor of Nagaur.

The Muzaffarid dynasty were sultans of Gujarat in western India from 1391 to 1583. The founder of the dynasty was Zafar Khan Muzaffar (later Muzaffar Shah I) who was governor of Gujarat under the Delhi Sultanate. Zafar Khan's father Sadharan, was a Jat convert to Islam.

Indonesia became muslim for such reason - the rulers embraced islam and the whole nation became islamic.

^^^^ Zafar or Muzaffar belonged to the "Tank" clan who can be Jats/Khatris/Rajputs depending on the area in which they live. In this case Zafar's father was employed in the revenue dept of Firoz Tughlaq and in all likelihood a Khatri.

[sum]

Seems to be ISPR psy-ops to show the TSP is still being targeted by terrorists itself:

Why Pak Taliban rejected Islamabad's offer of peace talks

In his special Eid day message released by the SITE Intelligence Group, Hakimullah accused the Pakistani military and the state of handing over Arab, Uzbek, and other Mujahideen to the kuffar (unbeliever of infidel) only to please their leaders.

The Arabs to whom the TTP chief has referred are in fact members of Al Qaeda while the Uzbeks are members of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) and other affiliated groups. "Our war with you will continue and soon you will be humiliated and disgraced in this very life, and kuffar too will turn its back on you. For they (kuffar) have used you and can no longer see any strength remaining in you."

While blaming the oppression and injustices committed against the militants by selfish rulers whose loyalties lie with the Jews and the Christians, the TTP chief said uniting under the leadership of Mullah Mohammad Omar and waging jehad was the solution.

"I urge all Muslims to rise up against these agents of the kuffar (infidels) who have sold their consciences; to rise above their differences and unite under the banner of Ameer-ul-Momineen Mullah Mohammad Omar and work towards the revival of the Caliphate - a dream awaiting fulfillment," Hakimullah said in his message.

Hakimullah also rejected the Durand Line, the border that divides Afghanistan and Pakistan, and said the bond with the Afghan Taliban will continue to strengthen. "There is no doubt that the Muslim Ummah (Mulsim community) is one body, and as Muslims we do not accept the divisions of the Durand Line or any borders," Hakimullah said.

"We are all loyal soldiers of Ameer-ul-Momineen Mullah Mohammad Omar. He is our leader, guide and ameer. The services and sacrifices made by Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan for the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have been proven over time and our association with them will only continue to strengthen."

Hakimullah Mehsud urged Muslims to "display utmost unity" as the United States and the NATO forces prepare to withdraw from Afghanistan. "The armies of the kuffar (infidel) are well on their way to defeat, and as an exit strategy will make last ditch efforts to create rifts amongst the ummah (Mulsim community)", Hakimullah added.

Even otherwise, influential diplomatic circles in Islamabad argue that the Pakistan government simply can't hold peace talks with a militant group which has already been placed on the international anti-terrorism sanctions list of the United Nations Security Council. Before tagging the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan as a terrorist organisation on July 29, the UNSC had already included Hakimullah Mehsud and his second-in-command, Waliur Rehman, in its sanctions list in October 2010.

Strangely enough, the UNSC sanctions on the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan came four years after the group emerged along the rugged border areas with Afghanistan and declared an open war against the Pakistani state and its security establishment for siding with the forces of the infidel.

The TTP is an umbrella organisation of various small and big Islamic militant groups based in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas of Pakistan along the Afghan border in Pakistan. It was formed in North Waziristan on December 12, 2007 when an assembly of 40 senior Pakistani jehadi leaders commanding a pooled force of about 40,000 gathered in Peshawar, the capital of Khyber Pakhtunkhawa Province and decided to come together under a single banner, Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan, led by Commander Baitullah Mehsud, who was eventually killed in a US drone attack in August 2009.

If things are really as grim between TSP and TTP as portrayed, why arent more IED mubaraks happening like was the case in 2008/09?

[parsuram]

I guess I can add my pittance to this entire Hindu slaves debate. First off, I would point out that significant Indian(Hindu/Buddhist/Jain) populations were in central and west Asia entirely of their own free will well before the plague of mumad spread out of Arabia. A great number of Buddist monastaries were there in Iraq, Palestine(1) Sainai, Egypt. Hindus were present in significant numbers in Persia and Egypt(specifically, Misras of UP claim migration back from Egypt-Misr). My maternal family (Datts) have a branch which returned from Iraq shotly after the Arab invasion there (they fought at Karbala on side of Ali), similarly in central Asia, where Hindus settled "Kashi" called Uttar Kashi, now just Kashi. The great trade route north of Afghanistan carried many Indian traders, and north of mount Kailas were areas settled first by Hindus at the time of the great war at Kurukshetra. Now that establishes that Hindu gene markers can be present in those areas without those populations having been dragged there as slaves. Besides, look at indentured Indian laborers taken to the west Indies, South America, South Africa and Fijij. That was over a century ago. They have maintained their Indic roots, the cekebrate divali and vijaya dashmi even after moving as immigrants to the US, heck one of them even earned a Nobel in Lit. So. Where does this leave all the talk of millions of Hindu slaves in central and west asia. On some what shakky ground, I'm afraid. The loud mouth mussalman invaders of lower intellect liked to brag- and did so to their hearts content. Oh they took slaves, I am sure, and a lot, too, but a lot may not be too much for some one who is limited to fingers and toes for counting. And I am also sure the bragging was backed up with delivering slaves to the big caliph in Baghdad, but again, I doubt the numbers went beyond a few ship loads. Africa was the motherlode for slaves fot the empires, and India did not replace it in any meaningful way. This has been way more than just my few cents, so I will quit right here.

[Murugan]

@ parsuram

+1

[Sri]

Moving a huge slave population for over 700 km distance by foot, is very difficult if not impossible. Look at the accounts of Alexander's army crossing the Khyber. This was a volunteer force, well fed, trained and financed. By the time they reached banks of the Beas they were remembering their maternal mother in laws....

IMHO taking so many slaves on foot, crossing the khyber / hindu kush is not possible. By all accounts an army moving on foot on planes covers only 30 km a day. now apply the same in one of the most rugged regions of the world. Even if there 100s and 1000s of slaves were moved 20 km per day, how were they fed / clothed and made to walk involuntarily?

[Pratyush]

What to say about a forum, where even the moderators indulge in OT discussions. .

When we nanhas do it, we get a breadator warning

[Airavat]

shouldn’t our hero be Raja Jaipal instead of Mahmood Ghaznavi

And if Ghaznavi being a fellow Muslim is enough for us to overlook his devastation in India, then we should also gleefully accept Taliban suicide bombings in Pakistan. May I remind all such people how Mahmood Ghaznavi killed the locals of Lahore ruthlessly when he attacked and burnt the entire city? May I remind them of Nadir Shah who in matter of a day killed thousands of Muslims when he marched on to Delhi to snatch the throne from Mohammed Shah, one of the last Mughal kings of India and yet another Muslim? Or Ahmed Shah Durrani, who ravaged the Muslim population of Gujrat while fighting the Sikhs? Do we all know that Maharaja Ranjeet Singh was requested by prominent Muslims of Lahore to come and capture the city?

[Altair]

What to say about a forum, where even the moderators indulge in OT discussions. .

When we nanhas do it, we get a breadator warning

There is a "stealth drone" watching and beaming the images to the mod-caves.

[parsuram]

Sri ji: many more arguments can be made against the boastful claims of gasni mumud than in support of them. On balance, an unbiased view will see them as huge exagerations, and part plain lies. That is generally true of the mussalman invaders/rulers in my opinion.

I am glad you brought up Alexander the barbarian. Now he is again one who wrote his own history. According to him, he defeated Purushottam on the banks of the Beas(Vipasa). Then his greek historians say that "his troops were dispirited and disheartened, wanting to return home"! Is this any attitude of a victorious army, hain ji?!! Don't you think they would be excited to go on to lot more plunder and loot and rape and pillage, hain ji? Why no? Hain ji. I can easily guess why not, and any one over the age of five who has been in the business of winning and loosing can guess too. Those greeks lost. That is the long and the short of it. Purushottam let them go, so they can go and drown in their own vomit, which their leader kindly did. I am sure when Purushottam got the news, he just laughed it off. So much for Al-Sikandar the barbarian. But you know the funny part? Yes, it has to do with the 1/8th or1/4th or 1/2 witted collection of moronic pakis now inhabiting India's western borders. Get this- those morons errected a statue honoring Al-Sikandar in the paki. You would think because they do this to honor any invader who has come there and looted,raped etc their ancestors- this they do any way, no, get this, the moron pakis honored sikandar the barbarian because he was---A Great Muslim Conquorer.!!

[Lalmohan]

i have met paquis who thought that all the historical mongol conquerors were muslims because they had the title "Khan", when you say "animist" or "shamanist" or "spirit worshipper" they stare at you blankly as if you'd spoken martian

[Sri]

Lalmohan Ji. Rather Mongols were ruthless against the Muslims. Many experts connect the muslim world's complex to this one indecent in history when mongols invaded the central asia and almost ravaged the whole Muslim civilization. And yes there are accounts that Hindus were present in these region in large numbers at that time and were selectively spared by the ravaging mongol herds. The decline of Baghdad Cliphite was the direct result of Mongol action. Though the institution survived for many more years but it's absolute authority was badly tarnished.

Parsuram Ji: In many threads before I have constantly argued that key for ultimate security for the Indic is control over Khyber. Accept the British almost every invader succeeded against us because they could cross the Khyber at will and we couldn't follow em back through it.

Alxander could be a demonic man with 2 horns on his forehead but he was a great strategist. He knew where to fight. He saw civilizational fault lines clearly. This is one talent that came to him naturally. Even today, international boundaries run through 80% of places where Alexander chose to fight. This was a BIG part of his success.

Another under reported event in Alexander's campaign in India is refusal of Persian troops to engage the Indians in direct fight. As far as they were concerned safety of Alexander was their sole duty. Fight was pretty much left to Macedonians.

[shiv]

Moving a huge slave population for over 700 km distance by foot, is very difficult if not impossible. Look at the accounts of Alexander's army crossing the Khyber. This was a volunteer force, well fed, trained and financed. By the time they reached banks of the Beas they were remembering their maternal mother in laws....

IMHO taking so many slaves on foot, crossing the khyber / hindu kush is not possible. By all accounts an army moving on foot on planes covers only 30 km a day. now apply the same in one of the most rugged regions of the world. Even if there 100s and 1000s of slaves were moved 20 km per day, how were they fed / clothed and made to walk involuntarily?

Net result? Women were abducted, slaves taken and sold from the areas that are now Pakistan to other areas that are still Pakistan.

Imagine a man who laughs at his mother and says "My dad screwed you. Nyahaha", Pakis are like that . It is a nation born out of rape and loot and they sit and admire rapists and looters as heroes. The ultimate Stockholm syndrome.

Look at it this way folks. Hindu girl gets abducted from Lahore, gets taken 100 km west to some camp. Gets used and gives birth to a child. The child's dad is hardly gong to wait in queue for LKG/UKG admission forms to put him through KG, Std 1 to Std 10 CBSE. He is out trying to loot more or steal his neighbor's wife. The child is with mother. What language does she use to talk to he child? Arabic? Spanish? Balls, It will be her tongue which may have been Punjabi/Sindhi. Dad ensures that child is Moslem - so he is called AbdulPackee. Dad is not gong to TESCO's to get bread. Mum has to feed baby. What does she cook? pomme frites? Seeshkabobs? Naah. She cooks ordinary Indian khana. Roti. Subzi. Gosht if available. So now - after 1000 years of subjugation of the area called Pakistan, the people speak their ancestral mother tongue, Punjabi or Sindhi, perhaps Gujarati, cooking their mother's food but raping and killing like dad after Jumma prayer. That's the history of Pakistan in one paragraph.

[shiv]

the moron pakis honored sikandar the barbarian because he was---A Great Muslim Conquorer.!!

Classic case of man mocking his mother saying "Hah my dad screwed you". No wonder YouTube is full of Pakis saying Ma ki ch**t. They are obsessed with what their dads did to mum.

[Altair]

Imagine a man who laughs at his mother and says "My dad screwed you. Nyahaha", Pakis are like that . It is a nation born out of rape and loot and they sit and admire rapists and looters as heroes. The ultimate Stockholm syndrome.

Look at it this way folks. Hindu girl gets abducted from Lahore, gets taken 100 km west to some camp. Gets used and gives birth to a child. The child's dad is hardly gong to wait in queue for LKG/UKG admission forms to put him through KG, Std 1 to Std 10 CBSE. He is out trying to loot more or steal his neighbor's wife. The child is with mother. What language does she use to talk to he child? Arabic? Spanish? Balls, It will be her tongue which may have been Punjabi/Sindhi. Dad ensures that child is Moslem - so he is called AbdulPackee. Dad is not gong to TESCO's to get bread. Mum has to feed baby. What does she cook? pomme frites? Seeshkabobs? Naah. She cooks ordinary Indian khana. Roti. Subzi. Gosht if available. So now - after 1000 years of subjugation of the area called Pakistan, the people speak their ancestral mother tongue, Punjabi or Sindhi, perhaps Gujarati, cooking their mother's food but raping and killing like dad after Jumma prayer. That's the history of Pakistan in one paragraph.

Naked Paki 33 1/3: The Final Insult
Please keep such posts coming.

[Lalmohan]

on movement on foot - roman army was supposed to march 20 miles/day and build an armed encampment for the night halt. mongol armies moved 50+ miles/day due to hardy horses and almost no logistics chains. zulu armies were expected to cover 30 miles/day - before battle at isandhlwana, the main zulu army covered 50-60 miles in one manouvere in day/night with their cattle herd to position behind the british camp. timur's army when invading india was apparently covering 10miles/day and on the way back with booty and captives about 3 miles/day. even alexander's army when engorged with followers etc., was covering 4-5 miles/day. the british invasion force of zululand with large numbers of porters and bullock drawn wagons and guns was covering 1-2 miles/day.

i seriously doubt if anyone was marching 10's of thousands of unwilling slaves over the outlying spurs of the himalayas in fit condition to be sold in arabian markets. we do know that timur took back many artisans and craftsmen from delhi to work on his samarqand monuments, but i assume he was smart enough to ensure the safe transportation of these precious resources - perhaps numbering a few hundred. as for women captives, probably soldiers who captured a girl or two would drag them along with the baggage train, but i suspect the majority of these women would perish enroute through abuse, neglect and hardship. only the women of officers and emirs might make it alive back to base.

the tragedy of the paquis is that they are forcible converts from indic stock and celebrate the rape and plunder of their ancestors - true dhimmification

[Neela]

Paki identity crisis has been solved!

[Singha]

TOI had a article recently on the indian diaspora who went to plantations in africa, fiji and west indies. seems the goras scammed them at multiple levels. first they were too poor to afford the ship voyage and had to work for long to pay if off. european settlers went as free agents. secondly once there , restrictions were placed on ownership of land so that even the successful ones found it hard to buy their own farms and settle permanently.

net result - of the 30 mil people who went out over a period of decades, only 5 mil remained behind in africa, west indies, fiji and few other places and 25 mil returned when their contracts ended.

meantime the goras in parallel took control over all these places and other profit centers like south africa, latin america, north america, australia and NZ.

[Sanku]

Paki identity crisis has been solved!

Indeed

As I keep saying, the reason why Pakistanis hate us, is that we are living reminder to them, that they are both literally and metaphorically basterds.

Imagine waking up every day and after you have done your morning prayers of telling your mom : "My dad screwed you. Nyahaha" and feel great in your manhood -- you look across the road and see a family where the dad loves the mom, the son revers both of them, and it is a whole, maybe troubled, but healthy house.

Much like your house was before it was burnt, raped and pillaged.

What would you do? You can not ensure that your mother got un-raped and you went back to the womb. You would like Marxists, want to spread equality of opportunity.

This is essentially what Pakistan is.

[shiv]

Paki identity crisis has been solved!

Absolutely and the brainless Pakis are doing and saying all the obvious things that anyone would do when he realises that his language, music and cuisine came from a mother who was raped a few centuries ago while his faith came from the rapist father. The religion, they have been told, is more important than anything else - so they try to distance themselves from the language and culture.

Of course Islam is all about male dominance, So there is no way in hell a Paki is going to introspect or feel sorry for his maternal line and reach any insight into how shallow his paternal lineage is - a lineage which is about as deep as a rapist's ancestor's penis violated some poor maiden. It's those rapists and their men that Pakistanis now revere - Ghauri, Ghaznavi etc. It was their maternal ancestors who were raped. Those who led to interior India escaped. Their maternal lineage were kidnapped and raped. And they have descended from that. In fact those Pakis who can show some Persian/Central Asian/Arab lineage via some genetic markers can be dead sure that it was a direct ancestor of their who got raped.

It would be a good game to catch some Paki suckers, make them pay for the blood test and find such genes so they can at once be proud of their Ayrab lineage while understanding that they are basically the product of rape. Need to watch out for Paki suckers in the news media who claim direct lineage to the past like this - so we can give them a history lesson of how SDRE genes got mixed up with the genes they carry.

[Lalmohan]

i think genetic studies show that they are almost identical to SDRE's with very limited TFTA infusions
so their elites are rape victim descendants and their mango's are terror victim convert descendants suffering from uber stockholm syndrome

[Inder Sharma]

Pakis recognize this phenomenon. Very recently on a deaf and dumb forum, a paki insightfully piqued that the true cause of stagnation and deterioration of Pakistani economy is due to the fact that there has been no territorial expansion of Pakistan. He was implying the lack of flow of Maal-e-Ghanimah

[archan]

this historic discussion should probably be archived in a separate small thread. People can post relevant links as well for the benefit of future readers.

[member_19686]

The only one's who has his panties in a twist is you, you first made a statement to which many members have presented contrary evidence and instead of reading or refuting the evidence you go on spouting hot air.

Good going "Dr" shiv.

The lahori logic is quiet strong with you.

Thanks. This reply makes the "evidence" that you post about "kaffir alleles" extremely credible and irrefutable.

"kaffir allelles" indeed. From abducted Indian women in central Asia.

Hindus beyond the Hindu Kush: Indians in the Central Asian Slave Trade

Scott C Levi (2002)

Now there is something to read "dr".

[member_19686]

This beats me completely :

How come bamian buddha and other buddhist statues ets survived till 21st century in the land of ghaznavids and ghurids

Aurangzeb did order artillery fire onto the murti's and vandalize parts of them (the broken legs were a result of this).

[Neela]

Absolutely and the brainless Pakis are doing and saying all the obvious things that anyone would do when he realises that his language, music and cuisine came from a mother who was raped a few centuries ago while his faith came from the rapist father. The religion, they have been told, is more important than anything else - so they try to distance themselves from the language and culture.
Of course Islam is all about male dominance, So there is no way in hell a Paki is going to introspect or feel sorry for his maternal line and reach any insight into how shallow his paternal lineage is - a lineage which is about as deep as a rapist's ancestor's penis violated some poor maiden. It's those rapists and their men that Pakistanis now revere - Ghauri, Ghaznavi etc. It was their maternal ancestors who were raped. Those who led to interior India escaped. Their maternal lineage were kidnapped and raped. And they have descended from that. In fact those Pakis who can show some Persian/Central Asian/Arab lineage via some genetic markers can be dead sure that it was a direct ancestor of their who got raped.
It would be a good game to catch some Paki suckers, make them pay for the blood test and find such genes so they can at once be proud of their Ayrab lineage while understanding that they are basically the product of rape. Need to watch out for Paki suckers in the news media who claim direct lineage to the past like this - so we can give them a history lesson of how SDRE genes got mixed up with the genes they carry.

I think you have an extra chapter for your book!

[shiv]

Hindus beyond the Hindu Kush: Indians in the Central Asian Slave Trade

Scott C Levi (2002)

Now there is something to read "dr".

Swamy, you have not read it yourself which makes your oral frothing even more fruitless. I have already posted excerpts from that source. The Indians were traders and money lenders. If you can get beyond the need to attempt worthless personal barbs and actually point out where that ref speaks of Indian slave genes I will actually thank you rather than laugh at your barely suppressed rage. A lot of people get angry with me on this forum for things I say because I say things that are bound to make people angry. Mostly they are not personal - but people do take them personally. But I enjoy it immensely when people tie themselves up in knots in anger and will do little to let them off unless they make a credible point.

I am sure you can actually dig out references to "Kaffir alleles" - or at least "Indian genes" in central Asia from slave trade. If you produce any references I will read them. You have not managed to do that except for getting angry at being told that "kaffir allele" is an absolutely stupid "I've got a chip on my shoulder" type of expression that is asking to be trashed by even a half-literate ally of Romila Thapar. Why post a link that is begging to be trashed and then get angry when it is trashed? Above all why take it personally? Are you the author? Why not post the info that you believe is available as quotes?

[A_Gupta]

Alxander could be a demonic man with 2 horns on his forehead but he was a great strategist. He knew where to fight. He saw civilizational fault lines clearly. This is one talent that came to him naturally. Even today, international boundaries run through 80% of places where Alexander chose to fight. This was a BIG part of his success.

Or it simply means that the modern Europeans who are mostly responsible for those boundaries were greatly influenced by their reading of Greek history.

As a simple example of the point I'm making - is the existence of Israel a natural result of history, or is it because of strong adherence to a history of the past? I claim it is just as plausible that Europeans saw boundaries where their classical education told them to see them as it is that the boundaries are inherently there.

[A_Gupta]

A Scott Levi paper: (PDF)
https://sites.google.com/site/arunsmusi ... slaves.pdf
From a few years before his book, so those conclusions may be dated.

[rajanb]

Very intereting email from AfPak Channel. Interesting because all the news is worth pondering upon.

Deadly strike

As many 10 Taliban fighters, several wearing suicide vests, were involved in an attack on a government complex Thursday in Paktia province that killed up to four Afghan police (NYT, BBC, Reuters, AFP, CNN). Afghan and American troops eventually retook the building, and destroyed a mosque that a second group of insurgents reportedly used to fire on U.S. attack helicopters (BBC). Anonymous officials told the L.A. Times that the tactics used in the attack -- multiple suicide bombings beginning with a suicide attack on a front gate -- and the location of the strike indicated the possible involvement of the Haqqani Network (LAT). Bonus read: Kate Clark, "Have the Taliban changed their tune?" (FP).

The Guardian has a must-read on a wave of attacks on cell phone towers in Afghanistan, destruction that has caused cell phone service to decline noticeably in parts of the country and inhibits the ability of Afghans to tip off the U.S. military about insurgents (Guardian). Meanwhile, the BBC reports that according to Afghan officials, Taliban militants stoned and then shot dead a mother and daughter in the province of Ghazni Thursday, after allegedly accusing them of adultery (BBC). And Germany's government announced Thursday that it would withdraw 450 soldiers from Afghanistan in the beginning of 2012, reducing the German contingent in the country to 4,900 (Reuters).

Finally, a five-member military panel convicted U.S. Army Sgt. Calvin Gibbs Thursday of killing three Afghans for sport, as well as assaulting another soldier and taking fingers and a tooth from the dead civilians (NYT, AP, Guardian, BBC, CNN). Gibbs was sentenced to life in prison, but may be eligible for parole in 10 years.

Pakistan's "Dirty Harry"

Declan Walsh has a detailed profile of Karachi's controversial and feared senior police officer Chaudhry Aslam Khan, who has survived multiple attempts on his life, been shot five times, and publicly promised to "bury" terrorists who had bombed his house in the crater they left behind (Guardian). Police in Khyber-Pukhtunkhwa province found five bodies Thursday, including two men in Peshawar and three women in the Swabi District whose bodies bore signs of torture (Dawn). And Atmanzai clansmen of the Wazir tribe protested in Miranshah against U.S. drone strikes Thursday, and demanded that North and South Waziristan be given provincial status, under the name "Islamia" (ET).

Meetings between Pakistan and an International Monetary Fund (IMF) delegation began in Dubai this week, as both sides discussed Pakistan's economic situation, falling foreign exchange reserves, and the impact of the worldwide recession on Pakistan's economy (ET). Pakistan's federal government has disclosed that the country's provinces have not used 82 percent of Rs934.3 billion ($10.8 billion) allocated since 2002 under the country's Public Sector Development Program (Dawn). And the Tribune reports that Pakistan will buy two nuclear reactors from China, with a combined output of 2,000 megawatts (ET).

Former Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi will reportedly join Imran Khan's Pakistan Tehrik-i-Insaf (PTI) party on November 27, while the party's leader in Balochistan has resigned, saying that the PTI, "is accepting all those people who are openly working for the establishment and recent [PTI] policy changes strongly point towards the policies of the military establishment" (ET). And in an interview with the BBC, a Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) spokesman denounced Khan, calling him a "slave" of Europe and the United States (ET).

Three stories finish off the week: A report submitted to Pakistan's Supreme Court has found that more than 5,000 acres of land owned by Pakistan Railways is illegally occupied by the country's army and federal government (Dawn).

Lyari story

A musical focused on gang violence in Karachi has been a surprising hit, playing to large audiences since opening last month in the city (Dawn). "Karachi - The Musical" is attempting to revive Karachi's once-celebrated theater scene, which faded after the 1947 partition of the Indian subcontinent.

Have the Taliban changed their tune?
By Kate Clark

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... their_tune