Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 2011

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 14 Nov 2011 18:27

JE Menon wrote:A_Gupta

>>as far as I know, there is no evidence of the US writing Pakistani textbooks, in particular, Urdu textbooks.

This is exactly my point. And if we could find some info confirming the above, it would be worth its weight in gold. But it isn't there (at least not in public domain) so far. It would be hard to hide that sort of thing...

I spent many, many hours over a period of months researching this and personally asked some well known TSP figures and concluded that the theory of US directly funding or writing jihadi stuff in TSPian textbooks is bunk. There is no evidence of this anywhere. I'd think that Occam's razor would help us here. TSPian indoctrination of its people is driven by its innate need to justify itself and Zia merely added a jihadi flavor to the poison.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 14 Nov 2011 18:39

SSridhar wrote: I agree with Ms. Khar that it is all for internal consumption and Pakistan has been privately assured, under US pressure, that the peace process/dialogue is 'uninterrupted and uninterruptible'.

To play the contrarian role, just from pure logic, any org. who doesn't want the peace process/dialog to continue merely has to stage a terrorist attack, unless said dialog is "uninterruptible".

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Nov 2011 18:56

Trust the Pseudo Liberal Elite in India to do exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time. Goes somewhat like this..

1. X picks a fight with us.
2. We make out a moral case in our favor.
3. Politics allows A, B and C to back X as we debate the moral case.
4. We try and make a peace case with X which it rebuffs regularly.
5. We strengthen our conventional defense.
6. X plays the terrorist backing card.
7. We express moral outrage again.
8. A,B and C again laugh at our plight.
9. X laughs at our guile.
10. X gets bold and spreads terror all round.
11. A, B and C get wind slowly we were right.
12. They start moving closer to us and against X.
13. We rebuff A, B and C just then.
14. X panics and makes trite and fake gestures.
15. We take that as a serious peace measure.
16. We outrage off A, B and C too.
17. Everyone knows we stand for nothing.

We really stand for nothing. Our leadership represents no stand. Those who stand for nothing..fall for anything. That is the dilemma we face.

If we stood for either of the 2 things we dearly claim:

1. Peace: We'd make sure it prevailed in the neighborhood as we see it. We would and should have ascertained cultural and political continuity along our neighborhood. Fought for it if need be. But we betrayed Tibet, Nepal, Myanmar to the Maoists. And we nearly are doing it to ourselves.

2. Plurality: We'd make sure that authoritarian monstrosities wouldn't emerge again in our neighborhood. We failed again.

These failures are not of the people themselves i would say. It's one clearly of leadership and will. Peace doesn't emerge without making a stand. We may not go to war every time someone in the neighborhood does something that disturbs that ideal. But it is our leaderships responsibility that it make it known that we oppose that dastardliness that in our view destroys peace and plurality on our borders outside and within.

If we just stuck to the stance, we would not have attempted real politik type arrangements of no avail in Tibet, Nepal and looked askance at the spread of Maoism and Islamists all over our cultural bedrocks and neighborhood. What we have shown and are depicting is a typical civilizational weakness that made a certain Krisna lecture one Arjun amongst the battlefields of Kurukshetra. Our brinkmanship lies not in the fact that we are balancing humility, compassion and peace with an effort Moral or Warlike but where we continually push for increasing the civilizational contiguity all along our neighborhood and in what form we push it. Our intrinsic sense of Dharma has been replaced by a clueless leadership with no stand at all. With the weak we may attempt real politik, with the strong appeasement. With our own down and out arrogance in governance and with the corrupt respect. No one really knows what we stand for.

To call Gilani a 'Man of Peace' is a symptom of the dilemma above. The leadership is clueless. It has no civilizational moorings left. It does not know what it stands for. How can it stand for this country?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Nov 2011 18:56

i think the text book printing saga is a kunduz type business, unkil gives permission to do x, paqui tactical brilliance means they do x^2

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 14 Nov 2011 18:57

>>I strongly suspect that MSA is the pointman used by the USA for selling this line to GoI

Probably someone else SS. They dislike MSA intensely, from what I know.
Of course, these days who can tell.

vijaytripoli · Post by **vijaytripoli** » 14 Nov 2011 19:33

shravan wrote:Pilot dies in PAF jet crash

ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft JF-17 Thunder, crashed in Attock Distrct also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.

Its F-7 p not JF-17. Typical Media . Trainee Got Survied by ejecting but Instructor is Dead
Chau

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Nov 2011 19:44

Over 7500 Pakistanis Overstayed in India

That's 7500 potential terrorists. But, don't worry. Let's liberalize the visa process for our long lost brothers who have after all promised that 'times have changed'. Our trust deficit has already shrunk and our large country can take more blows. AoA.

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Nov 2011 20:10

shiv wrote:
Aditya_V wrote: Only 1 has crashed so far, that still is a good record.
"Good record" is a judgment reached from hours flown and serviceability. At one extreme, if you keep an aircraft on the ground it will never crash and that would constitute a "fantastic" record , so such a judgment cannot be arrived at without the missing data.

Per an article by Thierry Dubois the claim is that the JF-17 fleet has clocked 10,000 flight hours. Check out the upgrade path of the JF-17 in the article as well:

China-Pakistan JF-17 Fighter Slated for Block-2 Upgrades

Dubai Air Show » November 14, 2011

by Thierry Dubois

……………. The in-service fleet has logged a total of 10,000 flight hours with the PAF …………….

AIN Online

Those 10,000 flying hours of the JF-17 have been reportedly clocked by two squadrons :

Pak raises two squadrons equipped with JF-17 Thunder jets

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Nov 2011 20:29

arun wrote: Those 10,000 flying hours of the JF-17 have been reportedly clocked by two squadrons :

Pak raises two squadrons equipped with JF-17 Thunder jets

One accident in 10,000 flying hours is bad. That translates to 10 crashes per 100,000 flying hours.

Now lookee what the Pakis say about the IAF

http://siyasipakistan.wordpress.com/200 ... the-world/

The India Air Force has the worst crash record in the world India, using mostly Russian aircraft, has an accident rate of 6-7 per 100,000 hours flown (compared to 4-5 for all NATO air forces.)

Pakis now hold the record, using the Chinese Junk Fighter 17. Congratulations.

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Nov 2011 20:53

X Posted from the Islamism thread.

In a rare moment of “EnMo” aka “Enlightened Moderation” the Islamic Republic of Pakistan erects a monument in the Maldives that recognises that Pakistani history did not commence with the Arab invasion of Muhammad bin Qasim and included in the monument depictions of artifacts of the ancient Indus Valley civilisation such as a portrayal of the Lord Buddha.

This above act of “Enlightened Moderation” by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan resulted in their Mohammadden co-religionists in the Maldives getting their knickers in a pious Islamic twist and no sooner than the monument was unveiled by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani it was vandalised by subjecting it to an act of arson.

This was not the first attack on the monument. Earlier it was subjected to an attack by members of the Opposition Political parties of the Maldives and shamefully the Islamic Minister of the Maldives, Dr Abdul Majeed Abdul Bari, termed the monument was “illegal” as it “represented objects of worship of other religions.” :

Pakistan’s ‘idolatrous’ SAARC monument set ablaze by protesters

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 14 Nov 2011 21:23

shiv wrote:
rajanb wrote:The most important item which Pakistan imports from India is soya oil.
F-16s!! Pakistan is importing F-16s from India!

Noooo. Its worse than that Shiv. Since we rejected the F16s we have to supply them with the LCA MK2

which runs on soya oil

arun · Post by **arun** » 14 Nov 2011 21:27

X Posted from the Pakistani Role in Global Terrorism thread.

The Washington Post reports on the frustration of the US Armed Forces in Afghanistan after coming in contact with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s well practised ability in the art of “plausible deniability” with regard to fomenting Islamic Terrorism

:

On Afghan-Pakistan border, suspicions reign

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 14 Nov 2011 21:35

MMS is like google auto complete for Gila-nahi. Gila-nahi will start off trying to say something nice but will remember Kiyani and stop, but MMS will auto complete. Truly MMS is PM of IT superpower onlee.

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 14 Nov 2011 22:14

A_Gupta wrote: .................................

PS: why I want to check Hoodbhoy is because of statements like this (2010)
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/602/transcript.html
PARVEZ HOODBHOY: If you were to say, where does the genesis of global jihad I will point it squarely at the United States. It had made the fight against the Soviets a religious war. The fact is CIA distributed hundreds of thousands of Korans to madrasas, to those it was seeking to influence in Afghanistan. It succeeded brilliantly, but look at what enormous cost.
This, IMO, is increasingly the Pakliberals' alibi (i.e., Pakistan is inherently **not** jihadi, the US made it so), and so needs extreme scrutiny.

Tauba Tauba, is Parvez Hoodbhoy saying that Quran is a Jihadi Manual??

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Nov 2011 22:24

^Nice catch there. He clearly points the genesis of the Global Jihad and the costs attributed are to the distribution of the Koran... Wah ji Cutlet stuff surely..

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 14 Nov 2011 22:44

I know a good travel agent for Mr.Pervez Goodboy. He can get a nice deal in British Airways or Air Canada.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 14 Nov 2011 22:58

rajanb wrote:From the Nutcase Nation and posted in full

Taqleef for the Abduls

Pakistan a paper MFN of India
By: Salman Abduhu | Published: November 14, 2011

LAHORE – Indian exports to Pakistan are on the rise though it has yet to be granted Most Favourite Nation (MFN) status whereas Pakistani exports to India have downward trend despite its earning MFN status years back from New Delhi.

The real problem, experts say, is that Pakistani exporters cannot get access to Indian markets because of the non-tariff barriers created by Indian bureaucracy. ‘You are MFN on paper but an outcast actually’ is the impression the Pakistani exporters are getting form New Delhi.

BS I think. Pakis are born liars and master of blaming their incompetence on others, like water sharing, law & order etc. It is not our babus but pakis own lack of producing enough GDP and finished good for export not only to India but any country in the world.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 14 Nov 2011 23:41

Altair wrote:I know a good travel agent for Mr.Pervez Goodboy. He can get a nice deal in British Airways or Air Canada.

First he needs Canadian vijja issued through the tatkal counter in the back. And he has been applying for one for a long time. Quite curiously, his vijja applications disappear, while others jump queue in front of him and get wajib-ul-kayoed.

I personally think he is one of those Rub-anys of their nucular field, that the khakis use to wipe their backsides clean once a while.

saip · Post by **saip** » 15 Nov 2011 00:36

abhijitm wrote:From the Nutcase Nation and posted in full

Taqleef for the Abduls

Pakistan a paper MFN of India
By: Salman Abduhu | Published: November 14, 2011

LAHORE – Indian exports to Pakistan are on the rise though it has yet to be granted Most Favourite Nation (MFN) status whereas Pakistani exports to India have downward trend despite its earning MFN status years back from New Delhi.

The real problem, experts say, is that Pakistani exporters cannot get access to Indian markets because of the non-tariff barriers created by Indian bureaucracy. ‘You are MFN on paper but an outcast actually’ is the impression the Pakistani exporters are getting form New Delhi.
BS I think. Pakis are born liars and master of blaming their incompetence on others, like water sharing, law & order etc. It is not our babus but pakis own lack of producing enough GDP and finished good for export not only to India but any country in the world.

I used to work for a textile importer. When JCP or Sears said your quality sucks the Paki exporter would say "Yes, Sir! your standards are our standards and we will change pronto and they did". But if an Indian importer says the same thing the reply would be "What? Our standards are world class. Dont you know we ship to US, you are putting non tariff barriers, change your standards immediately". On top of that US buyers used to send auditors to see if Pakis are following the labor laws or not and Pakis had no problem with that. Only problem they have is India.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 15 Nov 2011 01:06

Many things have become clear about Indo-Pak equation after BK talk.

India thinks that Pak is a seperate sovereign country, but Pak thinks that they are a seperate electorate only. BR has discussed this and its effects. But BK talk makes this official.

So we are not importing. The reaction is very typical if you go to a business within india. We are this/that and you need to clean you side etc. So we need to deal with it accordingly.

The statement "integrated and stable pak" means exactly that. From now on, I will start looking at GoI actions from this mindset.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Nov 2011 03:01

As dear old Ronnie Reagan said,"Trust but verify".One could add," practice what you preach","actions speak louder than words",with respect to handing over the 26/11 masterminds and the cessation of terrorism against India.All indicators however show that the last nation on the planet that you can trust is Pak.Do we not have the current US frustration and anger against Pak for its duplicity,that too coming from Pak's best patron? When Pak has treated its favourite punter,the US so shamefully and shabbily,how on earth dies any rational thinker conclude that it will not betray India for the umpteenth time? Apart from cross-border terror,we have the massive campaign of flooding the country with counterfeit notes to weaken the economy,latest reports say that Dawood is using couriers especiallly in the south to do so.

One can only conclude that Dr.Man-in-the-Moon Singh is suffering from a severe attack of lunacy and perhaps shouldd be sent to an institution with a similar sounding name.

arun · Post by **arun** » 15 Nov 2011 07:40

X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan thread.

Head of the Punjabi dominated Air Force of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman discloses that the Air Force he heads carried out some 5,500 sorties in which 10,600 bombs targeting the Pathan / Pashtun minority were carried out.

Only in a country like the Islamic Republic of Pakistan where the contempt of the Armed Forces for civilians is high will we have the head of the Air Force bragging about the use of a weapon that clearly represents excessive use of force besides being known to contribute a fair degree to collateral damage, namely Air Power:

Air force dropped 10,600 bombs in two years: Qamar

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Nov 2011 08:27

When Saddam used helicopters in Basra he got UN sanctions!
Now TSP is boasting of bombing their own population and US turns away face as if they never heard it.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 15 Nov 2011 08:48

sum wrote:Was this posted earlier?

Four Pakistani intelligence officials found dead

Wonder which agency these worthies belonged to?

This was earlier reported as "Four TFTAs Shaheedized during combined Air, Navy, Ground and space assault supporting GOAT" Turned out that it was 4 TFTAs who were goatnapped and given their 72

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 15 Nov 2011 09:06

arun wrote:X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan thread.

Head of the Punjabi dominated Air Force of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman discloses that the Air Force he heads carried out some 5,500 sorties in which 10,600 bombs targeting the Pathan / Pashtun minority were carried out.

Only in a country like the Islamic Republic of Pakistan where the contempt of the Armed Forces for civilians is high will we have the head of the Air Force bragging about the use of a weapon that clearly represents excessive use of force besides being known to contribute a fair degree to collateral damage, namely Air Power:

Air force dropped 10,600 bombs in two years: Qamar

Lends credibility to Farhat Taj's claims that the people prefer American drones to Pakistani airstrikes.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_5

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 15 Nov 2011 09:21

Since the Pakis prefer drones to their own Airforce dropping bombs, Drona seems to have answered their pleas:

From the Nutcase and posted in full:

Drone kills five in North Waziristan

Updated at: 0704 PST, Tuesday, November 15, 2011
MIRANSHAH: A drone strike targeting a house killed five people in North Waziristan near the Afghan border on Tuesday, security officials said.

The strike took place in Miranshah Bazaar.

Security official said thick smoke was seen coming out of the compound after the strike, adding the identities of those killed could not be immediately verified.

Another security official also confirmed the strike and casualties, saying that four to five drones were still flying in the area. (AFP)

Is this a reminder from Ma-in-law for dowry?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2011 09:40

V_Raman wrote: India thinks that Pak is a seperate sovereign country, but Pak thinks that they are a seperate electorate only.

Don't know if you are the original author of these words, or whether Karnad said them, but it has lit up an intensely bright pisko-light in my mind. I had a sort of sense about it but did not have the words to express it so aptly. Thank you.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 15 Nov 2011 10:03

MFN is formalizing the "integrated/stable pak" idea, albeit indirectly (unlike kashmir).

india enabled pakistan get better terms for textile trade with EU.
expect india to sell power and carry a huge arrears in payment.
expect india to sell locomotives to pak railway.

that is what i understood from Karnad's talk

partha · Post by **partha** » 15 Nov 2011 11:08

^

hmm, economic integration of Pak into the Indian Union. Making it dependent on India? I was surprised to read the views of the usually hawkish Karnad. So this could be the plan then.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 15 Nov 2011 12:07

Bet the Paki think tanks in the PA will look at all of this as a Trojan Horse opportunity. There's no way they won't be thinking of that.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Nov 2011 12:12

China expresses surprise over reports of nuke sales to Pakistan

Chinese officials have denied sales of nuclear plants and material to Pakistan in the past, and later confirmed such reports after a period of time.

lets see where the truth lies here.

member_20038 · Post by **member_20038** » 15 Nov 2011 12:15

vijaytripoli wrote:
shravan wrote:Pilot dies in PAF jet crash

ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft JF-17 Thunder, crashed in Attock Distrct also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.
Its F-7 p not JF-17. Typical Media . Trainee Got Survied by ejecting but Instructor is Dead
Chau

Yes and Gaddafi is still alive, the one lynched was a body double

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Nov 2011 12:24

vijaytripoli wrote:
shravan wrote:Pilot dies in PAF jet crash

ATTOCK: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) aircraft JF-17 Thunder, crashed in Attock Distrct also killing its pilot, Geo News, reported Monday.
Its F-7 p not JF-17. Typical Media . Trainee Got Survied by ejecting but Instructor is Dead
Chau

Admins, Paki alert.

Oops sorry since to live in TSP is a bit unsafe, NRP alert.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Nov 2011 12:41

partha wrote:. . . economic integration of Pak into the Indian Union. Making it dependent on India?

This will be a pipe dream, if at all India has such plans. Pakistan has no means of paying for goods and services. Countries like China or the US or the EU which do business with it do it for several other reasons apart from a pure business perspective. Pakistan exports far more to the US & the EU than it imports. From China, it imports far more than it exports. Again understandable because China has no need of Pakistani textiles and Pakistan makes next to nothing worthwhile of being exported. It is a price China pays for using Pakistan as its paw against India and for containing the boiling Xinjiang. Pakistan imports far more from the desert ummah leader KSA as well, understandably all of it oil imports. Same is the case with UAE & Kuwait too. These six trading partners account for over 70% of business. The trade between the US, China, KSA and to some extent the EU and Pakistan is also dictated by strategic interests. India will never have the same leverage with Pakistan as these partners. After some time, we will depend upon them when Pakistan runs a huge trade imbalance and has no means of bridging that gap or paying back in hard cash. As the modern saying goes, it is the lender who is worried (about recovery) and not the borrower (about paying back).

Since 1947, Pakistan has been bent upon deceiving us by both words and action. Absolutely nothing has changed on the ground in spite of pious protestations from Pakistan of 'changed times' and hence attitude. OK, we have tried everything and learning the lesson the hard way. This is one more in that list. If we do not understand Pakistan's gene, we are doomed to repeat these mistakes.

vic · Post by **vic** » 15 Nov 2011 13:10

arun wrote:X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan thread.

Head of the Punjabi dominated Air Force of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman discloses that the Air Force he heads carried out some 5,500 sorties in which 10,600 bombs targeting the Pathan / Pashtun minority were carried out.

Only in a country like the Islamic Republic of Pakistan where the contempt of the Armed Forces for civilians is high will we have the head of the Air Force bragging about the use of a weapon that clearly represents excessive use of force besides being known to contribute a fair degree to collateral damage, namely Air Power:

Air force dropped 10,600 bombs in two years: Qamar

This is almost 20 times bigger (than IAF Kargill operations) air to ground compaign conducted by PAF against its own people. US operations are extra.

Hail Piggistan

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 15 Nov 2011 13:30

i dont think we should extend this to making pak dependent on india kind of thoughts. pak is not a seperate country. the wars were communal riots with tanks only. i am yet to wrap my head around how to extend/extrapolate from this newfound POV.

shivji -- please provide us with piskological enlightment.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 15 Nov 2011 13:38

V_Raman wrote:MFN is formalizing the "integrated/stable pak" idea, albeit indirectly (unlike kashmir).

india enabled pakistan get better terms for textile trade with EU.
expect india to sell power and carry a huge arrears in payment.
expect india to sell locomotives to pak railway.

that is what i understood from Karnad's talk

Two words- Big mistake.
We don't have enough leverage to make sure that we will receive something in return for all these orpportunities we are providing to pakis even at the risk of further deteriorating our security.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 15 Nov 2011 13:53

SS-ji,
I remember you mentioning that dues that TSP owes us since partition have still not been paid whereas India has already paid its share.
Any business with TSP will have to be Cash-And-Carry.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Nov 2011 15:01

Neela wrote:Any business with TSP will have to be Cash-And-Carry.

Neela ji, where does Pakistan have cash ? The US is tightening the screws considerably, the multilateral lending agencies have stopped giving aid, China never gives aid and so does KSA. Of course, they may produce FACN and 'carry' Indian goods across the Wagah or Munabao.

The trouble, at least for me, is that GoI is treating Pakistan as any other normal nation-state. Worse, they may be treating TSP as a welcome return of the prodigal son.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 15 Nov 2011 15:14

I find it very hard to believe that despite so much credible evidence of the GOP and it's affiliates being involved in the FICN racket, we have not discussed that in a single bilateral meeting. No pressure at all on the Paki's one bit. So i don't really understand whats this camaraderie om MFN all about. Just another naive fool in Office thinking Pappi Jhappi is all that takes to solve the Paki conundrum.