India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

kvjayan · Post by **kvjayan** » 17 Nov 2011 21:08

Dr. Ramadas (PMK party leader) has given notice for winding up the Kalpakkam plant by 2020, a long rope indeed. Perhaps he feels he had missed out his chance for the Koodankulam plant and rushed in to establish his "priority" for the Kalpakkam plant. Kalpakkam (located in northern TN) also falls within "his" sphere of influence. He wants to play the typical politico-extortionist strategy, expecting to be rewarded in either cash or kind (should he, by some miracle, form part of a winning coalition in the future elections). He has sensed that the CM of TN is going to extract her pound of flesh from the beleaguered UPA regime to tame the "innocent" fishermen (whose leaders may also benefit in the process). There seems to be something for everyone in the present mess.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Nov 2011 07:25

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-1 ... y-cap.html
India Woos GE, Westinghouse With Atomic Supply Liability Cap
( Now the master of EJ coming, agitation will go away)

Nov. 17 (Bloomberg) -- India, planning $175 billion of atomic power plants, has capped liability of equipment suppliers in the event of an accident, paving the way for General Electric Co. and Westinghouse Electric Corp. to supply reactors.Claims by plant operators against component suppliers “shall in no case exceed the actual amount of compensation” paid by utilities, according to a notification by the Department of Atomic Energy dated Nov. 11 in the Gazette of India, the official record of government rules. No statement accompanied the publication, a copy of which was posted by state-owned Nuclear Power Corp. of India on its website yesterday.Concerns about the extent of liabilities following three meltdowns at Japan’s Fukushima plant in March, the worst civil atomic accident since Chernobyl in 1986, cast doubt over India’s plan to boost atomic generation 13-fold by 2030. GE, Westinghouse and Areva SA sought changes to a law that allows Nuclear Power Corp. to claim damages from suppliers for equipment defects.“Capping of liability for suppliers will address their biggest concern,” said Debasish Mishra, a senior director at Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu India Pvt. This “will help companies like GE and Westinghouse to join the Indian nuclear program.”The rules give plant operators the right to recourse against equipment suppliers “for not less than the extent of the operator’s liability” or “the value of the contract itself, whichever is less,” according to the notification.
“The Indian government has been as considerate as possible to the nuclear suppliers and they should welcome this,” S.K. Malhotra, a spokesman for the Department of Atomic Energy, said by telephone from Mumbai.

Obama, Singh
The notification came a week before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s scheduled meeting with U.S. President Barack Obama during the East Asia Summit in Bali, Indonesia, and brings the Indian government a step closer to ratifying an international convention on global liability standards.Westinghouse, the U.S.-based nuclear reactor builder owned by Toshiba Corp., will wait for India to ratify the Convention on Supplementary Compensation for Nuclear Damage before offering equipment, Gary T. Urquhart, the company’s vice-president for India, Taiwan and South East Asia, said in a Sept. 30 interview.
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton urged India in July to amend its nuclear liability law this year to ensure it complies with international accords. The law has made it difficult for U.S. companies to enter the market and is broader than the global agreement in which more than 80 nations agreed to limit compensation claims to operators of atomic plants.
Liability Limit
The Indian law sets a 15 billion rupee ($296 million) cap on payouts by Nuclear Power Corp., the country’s monopoly atomic generator, with the government responsible for damages beyond that. Nuclear Power can seek compensation from suppliers for defective equipment or materials.Paris-based Areva SA will supply reactors for a 9,900- megawatt project at Jaitapur to be built in stages. India is waiting for French authorities to complete a safety review, Indian Foreign Minister S.M. Krishna said Oct. 20.“We welcome the publication of the rules, but are still to fully read and understand them,” Patrick Teyssier, marketing and strategy director at Areva’s India unit, said by e-mail today. “We do not wish to comment on the rules for the time being and will comment in due time.”M.V. Kotwal, president at Larsen & Toubro Ltd., India’s biggest supplier of nuclear plant components, said the company is yet to study the notification. Nuclear Power Corp. Chairman S.K. Jain didn’t answer six calls and a text message to his mobile phone

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Nov 2011 07:29

joshvajohn wrote:Even the Kerala govt will not let Central govt to set up a nuclear plant in Kerala because they are very smart people!

When KKNPL goes online (which it will soon), the 'smart' Kerala must forsake its share of the power from KKNPL as a matter of principle.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Nov 2011 07:43

Case against Priests for encouraging protests

As some of the churches are being used to disseminate anti-Kudankulam Nuclear Power Project (KKNPP) messages urging the people to join the ongoing protest against the nuclear power project, the police here have started registering cases against priests who either allow or indulge in such activities.

After the St. Lourdes Church premises at Idinthakarai was converted into anti-KKNPP protest venue, a number of priests from Roman Catholic and Church of South India and even the Bishops of both the Churches met the protesters to express their solidarity with the agitating public, mostly Christians, without police permission.

“Since using the premises of a place of worship to air anti-governmental campaign is a crime, cases are being registered against those indulge in such activities,” said a police officer here.

Meanwhile, police investigation has also revealed that the “anti-KKNPP and anti-government” campaign being conducted through the churches have spread up to Valliyoor, from where the people are being mobilised for the ongoing protest at Idinthakarai.

During the sermon or towards the end of the Holy Mass in some of the churches in the southern parts of the district, the priests appeal to the public to raise their voice against the upcoming nuclear power project and some of them even urge the public to revolt against the power generation programme “threatening the life and livelihood of the people”.

Similar sentiments are propagated through the ‘Anbiyams'.

The ‘Anbiyams' are small Christian communities functioning in every parish, which meet periodically. They also discuss issues the community face, and find solutions for them. After the protest against KKNPP intensified, the appeals being made by parish priests to protest against the nuclear power project are discussed at the meetings of the ‘Anbiyams', a senior officer said.

“As per the decision taken in our ‘Anbiyam', we are now going to Idinthakarai in vans to participate in the ongoing relay fast against KKNPP,” said a Valliyoor-based retired teacher, even as her husband, also a retired post-graduate assistant, was stopped by his son from participating in the agitation on Wednesday.

Police sources said 76 cases have been registered so far against those conducting anti-KKNPP protests and a few political leaders, including Marumalrchi Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam general secretary Vaiko, Pattali Makkal Katchi president G.K. Mani, Viduthalai Chirthaigal Katchhi general secretary Thol. Thirumavalavan and social activist Medha Patkar for participating in the protest organised without proper permission from the police.

“Cases were registered against RC Bishop of Tuticorin Diocese Yvon Ambroise and other priests for the same offence,” the police officer said.

Sanatanan · Post by **Sanatanan** » 18 Nov 2011 18:56

Second round of KNPP talks end in stalemate

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 18 Nov 2011 21:06

I wouldn't take this lawsuit BS too seriously. The GOI regularly harasses its citizens at any time of its choosing with such cases. Once a agreements is worked out all cases are dropped. The same police establishment filed very similar cases against the entire Hazare leadership as well. It was the case harassment of Baba Ramdev about his cash sources that made him back down as well.

When Kushbu made her free speech comments about virginity, an incredible 60 cases were filed against her on the spot. Many were for 'disturbing the peace' type cases. Court dismissed the cases and gave the police a tongue lashing for far exceeding their bounds. In TN a group of 5 or more people gathering without police permission can be arrested and put in jail for disturbing the peace. No questions asked.

Where is the case on foreign money BTW. Havn't seen that yet have we. Bunch of ding dong charlatans.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Some Nitty Gritty. List of questions needs to be released publicly. No need for secrecy.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/second-round ... 0-118.html

However, several disagreements cropped up.

While the PMANE members said work has to come to a halt at the KNPP as per the state government's resolution, members of the central panel said construction work has come to standstill and only maintenance work in the first reactor is under progress. "The district collector said he would send his official to KNPP to see whether construction work is going on," both Pushparayan and a member of central panel, who did not wanted to be named, told IANS.

Meanwhile, Pushparayan said that on the statement of Atomic Energy Commission chief Srikumar Banerjee that keeping the plant idle is dangerous, the central panel members had blamed the media for misreporting.

"We told that it is the duty of the officials to come out with clarification immediately," he said.

He said that on the PMANE's demand for a copy of the inter-governmental agreement between India and Russia, the central panel said it is with the central government. "The documents can be obtained through other legal channels like the Right to Information Act (RTI) is what we told them," said a member of central panel.

Meanwhile, the agitators demanded holding of public hearing on the mode of disposal for the spent fuel for the first two reactors as there was a change. "Initially the spent fuel was to be shipped back to Russia. But later it was changed and India was allowed to reprocess the spent fuel which is a fear factor for the people. We said the two reactors are illegal," Pushparayan said. He said the experts panel failed to answer some of the basic questions or points raised by them, terming the information "military secrets".

However, according to the member of the central panel, barring five points/issues raised by the agitators, all other points have been answered. "The five points have nothing to do with the safety fears of the reactors. They pertain to bilateral relations with neighbouring countries, contract details and other aspects," said the central panel member.

However, Pushparayan had a different take. "At the end of the meeting, we were given a 38-page report by the central panel. They said one more page has to be added. We told them to give that last page to the district collector from whom it will be collected later," he said. Queried about the next round of talks, he said: "There are no proper documents to carry out the talks."

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Nov 2011 21:43

Theo_Fidel wrote: Some Nitty Gritty. List of questions needs to be released publicly. No need for secrecy.

Sorry theo. You are in wrong company.
Do you really expect some questions? You are nothing but christian traitor to the country even though you may have contributed to this country. Your concern is least of our concern though you or your future generations might be directly/indirectly affected.. With the type of low level comments here , you should set your bar trifle low.
Sad but real.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Nov 2011 22:11

chaanakya wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote: Some Nitty Gritty. List of questions needs to be released publicly. No need for secrecy.
Sorry theo. You are in wrong company.
Do you really expect some questions? You are nothing but christian traitor to the country even though you may have contributed to this country. Your concern is least of our concern though you or your future generations might be directly/indirectly affected.. With the type of low level comments here , you should set your bar trifle low.
Sad but real.

chaanakya ji,

Some of the them are hunting in pairs.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 19 Nov 2011 02:27

chaanakya wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote: Some Nitty Gritty. List of questions needs to be released publicly. No need for secrecy.
Sorry theo. You are in wrong company.
Do you really expect some questions? You are nothing but christian traitor to the country even though you may have contributed to this country. Your concern is least of our concern though you or your future generations might be directly/indirectly affected.. With the type of low level comments here , you should set your bar trifle low.
Sad but real.

Absolutely saar, the bar has been set way high with assertions such as:

"The Church is not involved"
"TN has 10000 MW of solar power potential, we can use 8000 MW of it to meet all our power needs"
"We said the two reactors are illegal"

There is no way to reach such high standards.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 19 Nov 2011 03:06

Chaanakya, Chetak and Taanaji
In US, UK and other Western countries, hundreds of hindu temples are built with enormous donations from Christians and others besides Hindus. Your languages are utterly unwarrented saying Christian Traitor and so on. Such small number of people's hatred attitude towards other religions have caused enormous troubles for Hindus, Sikhs and Jains in many other countries. If there is another opinion about certain issues, deal in that way and not to use such kind of words. You have right to criticise churches' involvement in protests but do not try to use such terms such as traitors because cultures and countries can grow and surivive only with people with diverse background living and respecting each other. but not generalising and accusing people of other religions. When it comes to an issue of an attack on Hindu temples or religious sentiments in the West some good people including Christians and other religious friends are first to protest joining hands with Hindu people.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Nov 2011 03:10

Dont bring US into the internal matter of India. India has been colonized and the elite still looks at colonization as a good thing

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 19 Nov 2011 03:12

joshvajohn wrote:Chaanakya, Chetak and Taanaji
In US, UK and other Western countries, hundreds of hindu temples are built with enormous donations from Christians and others besides Hindus. Your languages are utterly unwarrented saying Christian Traitor and so on.

I think chaanakya was being sarcastic when he said that.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 19 Nov 2011 03:18

Good point Acharya. That's how we should look at it.

We are now being colonized by foreign nuclear power companies with no liability to them. And we are paying them to do so. Long term.
-------------------------

Chaanakya,

I think we just ran into Poe's law. Always useful.....

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Nov 2011 05:53

Self-inflicted wounds indeed...

TFji, agree with your point. The questions have to be made public...

However, according to the member of the central panel, barring five points/issues raised by the agitators, all other points have been answered. "The five points have nothing to do with the safety fears of the reactors. They pertain to bilateral relations with neighbouring countries, contract details and other aspects," said the central panel member.

However, Pushparayan had a different take. "At the end of the meeting, we were given a 38-page report by the central panel. They said one more page has to be added. We told them to give that last page to the district collector from whom it will be collected later," he said. Queried about the next round of talks, he said: "There are no proper documents to carry out the talks."

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 19 Nov 2011 07:34

joshvajohn wrote:Chaanakya, Chetak and Taanaji
In US, UK and other Western countries, hundreds of hindu temples are built with enormous donations from Christians and others besides Hindus.
...
...

Dude, I don't know what you are smoking, but temples in US at least have been built with donations from hindus only. The christians in US are very conservative and no way will they donate to hindu temples, and same with muslims too. I don't find it wrong, for even hindus too don't donate to build mosques or churches. but don't peddle BS just for the sake of it.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Nov 2011 07:47

Perhaps JJji cN give details so we learn the Indic sprit of NRI indians. If he is talking about the US citizens who donated to various Hindu temples then I call them Hindus because they donated knowing and appreciating for what Hinduism is, instead of doing a (sic) secular guesture.

JJji, please prove us wrong!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Nov 2011 07:49

ChNakya ji,

Please be clear. We don't have to hide behind ghosts.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Nov 2011 08:10

Uranium imports boost N-plant's efficiency

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 19 Nov 2011 11:07

That should be Load Factor not efficiency as shown on chart. Media messes up as usual.

Does anyone know what this imported fuel costs in $ or is that too a national secret. We know what oil & coal cost.
--------------------------------------------

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 640022.ece

A delegation from the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission (USNRC), headed by its chairman Gregory B. Jaczko, visited on Friday the nuclear facilities at Kalpakkam, about 60 km from Chennai.

A delegation from the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission (USNRC), headed by its chairman Gregory B. Jaczko, visited on Friday the nuclear facilities at Kalpakkam, about 60 km from Chennai.

The USNRC is the counterpart of India's Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB).

The team visited the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IBCAR), the Madras Atomic Power Station and the Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor construction site.

An IGCAR official said the visit was “a routine one,” because the USNRC and AERB officials visited the nuclear facilities in both the countries once in two or three years and exchanged information on the safety practices.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 19 Nov 2011 12:50

Does anybody have a breakup of the planned 60,000 MW of nuclear power to be generated by 2035 ? How much propitiation of the the various NPP Gods are we looking at precisely ?

As far as I am aware, the major ones to be propitiated as part of the nuclear deal are Areva, Russia (Atomstroyexport), Westinghouse-Toshiba & GE-Hitachi... Any others as well ?

India's development certainly requires all efforts to meet the target output by 2035...no question about that. Also reactor import accounting for a certain minority percentage from best-in-class vendors should not be a problem.

Comparing to China which has the most ambitious effort ongoing currently, it has around 25% of under-construction projects based on imported reactors while the remaining are indigenous....India's target mix should be broadly similar - excepting that given the base is smaller the import percentage can be somewhat higher to begin with, in India. Imported reactors comprising 25-odd GW out of the planned 60 GW of power sounds reasonable...but the rest should be based on DAE efforts. This would, of course, assume external vendors sign up to the Indian liability clause, ENR technology is transferred & vendors maximize the percentage of reactor sub-system and component manufacture done out of India.

Sanatanan · Post by **Sanatanan** » 19 Nov 2011 14:25

News item in Dinamalar (Tamil Daily) about the Koodangulam imbroglio.

முரண்டு

The headline above roughly translates to "Tantrum" in English, and I believe "जिद" in Hindi. The news item is about the intransigent approach taken by the protesters on the face of reasonable answers provided by the Expert Committee appointed by the Central Govt.

(§) The article suggests that Dr Udayakumar (who is leading the protest) has US Citizenship. The paper also says that Shri Pushparayan (a member of the protester's committee) said that if this was proven, then Dr Udayakumar will recuse himself from the war (protest).

I have used a large font for the headline above, with a view to try and portray the unusually large size of the headline, for this news item, in Dinamalar news paper (web version). If the large font usage by me, in this (special ?) case is considered inappropriate in this thread, I will be happy to edit it, (or agree for any of the moderators to edit it) to the normal size.

(§) = Paragraph adder later.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 19 Nov 2011 14:57

Some Nitty Gritty. List of questions needs to be released publicly. No need for secrecy.
Sorry theo. You are in wrong company.
Do you really expect some questions? You are nothing but christian traitor to the country even though you may have contributed to this country. Your concern is least of our concern though you or your future generations might be directly/indirectly affected.. With the type of low level comments here , you should set your bar trifle low.
Sad but real.

I dont see any thing wrong in the above comment. I think it reflects a common man's(nuetral) feeling ! There are only two sides. With India or against India ! That too after spending crores of rupees. where were all these protestors, when all this was being built ? The so called protestors don't want to listen to the experts, who are ready to address all concerns. But one question the central expert team asked, WHY DO TEHSE PROTESTORS NEED COPY OF THE KKN MAP AND THE NUKE DEAL AGREEMENTS BETWEEN GOI & NUKE SUPPLIERS ?? This in my opinion, clearly exposing the protestors !!

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 19 Nov 2011 15:05

Very strong criticism of theo saar and joshvaji.I am unhappy.Our criticism is of christist separatism,not christians.

Also GOI is trying to reassure the people.eminent scientists are involved.Sri Muthunayagam,a former space scientist is from Nagercoil.Shri Stephen is a Heavy water specialist from Kalpakkam.

We have no problems with Yeshu,who 'delivered' God consciousness or the positive role of christianity in modern india.Naadar christians are a part of the landscape.Christianity has played a big role in their emancipation.Whether they accept it or not,modern india with its liberalism and openness has provided a platform,which the British could never have provided.

Theo saar,
Surely the Govt cannot have a policy for kudankulam alone.There are power plants operating else where.What would you settle for?
My 2 paise.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 19 Nov 2011 15:06

joshvajohn wrote:Chaanakya, Chetak and Taanaji
In US, UK and other Western countries, hundreds of hindu temples are built with enormous donations from Christians and others besides Hindus. Your languages are utterly unwarrented saying Christian Traitor and so on. Such small number of people's hatred attitude towards other religions have caused enormous troubles for Hindus, Sikhs and Jains in many other countries. If there is another opinion about certain issues, deal in that way and not to use such kind of words. You have right to criticise churches' involvement in protests but do not try to use such terms such as traitors because cultures and countries can grow and surivive only with people with diverse background living and respecting each other. but not generalising and accusing people of other religions. When it comes to an issue of an attack on Hindu temples or religious sentiments in the West some good people including Christians and other religious friends are first to protest joining hands with Hindu people.

The attempt to == is rather weird. Since Hindus in USA do not tend to do all things that happen here in India. Such as appropriation of temple funds by Govt. in India, temple lands by all & sundry under Govt. nose, demonetization of majority religion as pagan/heathen, and so on. It is a very strange == situation.

Upendra · Post by **Upendra** » 19 Nov 2011 15:13

Centre has to win hearts and minds in Kudankulam

In Geometry, squaring a circle is never easy.

That is the unenviable task cut out for the Central team inspecting the safety and other features at the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Project (KNPP) here for the second day on Wednesday, as a web of factors point to a long, arduous journey ahead.

While the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) constituted 15-member team of independent experts are likely to give their report to the Centre—this subject comes directly under the prime minister—by next week and also draft replies to the “50 questions” raised by the “People’s Movement against KNPP,” possibility of dialogue seems to be the only common thread that binds both sides for now.

Central team members headed by Dr A E Muthunayagam, an environmental expert, during their visit to the plant have been posing queries, seeking clarifications. They will continue their review on Thursday, a DAE source told Deccan Herald. The team members, though, have promised an “unbiased report,” even as a meeting with the State panel is slated for Friday at Tirunelveli.

Though the anti-KNPP Struggle Committee’s obduracy in wanting nothing less than a shutdown of both 1000 MW capacity nuclear power reactors has intensified the faceoff, the KNPP authorities are utterly baffled that a national project costing over Rs 13,000 crore, with the Russian side sharing about 50 per cent of the cost, could be held up in such unceremonious fashion.

S P Udhayakumar, an ardent anti-nuclear activist who had taught political science for some years at the University of Minnesota in the US and who coordinates the anti-KNPP struggle, asserts that the project cost “is nothing”, considering precious human lives and their future generations involved.

As their relay fast entered the 30th day in its third phase at Idinthakarai coastal hamlet, he hopes the Central team will provide all the information they have sought and visit the villages in the Kudankulam area (some 27 villages) to allay people’s fears about the KNPP. After the Fukushima disaster, the whole world is changing, reviewing their energy options and saying “No” to nuclear power, he said.

Panel’s response

Based on the Central panel’s response, the struggle committee wants to prepare “Position papers” on each of the key issues they had raised, including site suitability, tsunami and seismicity, radiation hazards, the plant’s structural integrity, handling of spent fuel and the like. Udhayakumar’s list is long and he has roped in more specialists for a wider national consultation.

The KNPP authorities seem helpless as the no-changers’ voices get audacious by the day. “We have already prepared several pamphlets addressing their fears and have done extensive public outreach over the years, much more so in Kudankulam case than at other plants,” said a top KNPP official. A cartoon film in Tamil - ‘Thiruvaalar Muthu’ - is also ready for screening in all villages as part of an “intense awareness campaign” to help remove all their fears.

Negative info

“But much more negative information has already been fed into the minds of the people here; they (protestors) have put up posters of Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, besides masquerading pictures of malnourished children from Somalia and other African countries as radiation effects, to instill fear and mislead the poor people of Kudankulam,” the official rued “The physics of Nuclear reactors is more or less the same anywhere in the world. The safety of a reactor should not be reviewed in isolation, but from the point of view of availability of other systems in place,” asserts E N Dudkin, head of the Russian Specialists Group working at KNPP site, refuting the arguments of the protest leaders against this Vver-type reactors.

For those who oppose nuclear energy and prefer others forms of energy production

Ex-AEC chief cautions against scrapping Kudankulam project

Cautioning against keeping ''high-investment facilities'' idle, former Atomic Energy Commission chief M R Srinivasan has sought a vigorous public relations push to counter the "misinformation campaign" against the Kundankulam Nuclear Project.

Noting that huge investment has gone in to build Kudankulam project, he said: "We can’t make investment and allow things to remain idle." "After all, these are high investment facilities. If you don’t start running them when they are ready to go, (you are) carrying a big unproductive investment. So, it’s something that we should be concerned about. It’s the country’s money. We should be concerned."

Srinivasan agreed that nuclear power is "inevitable" for India and it has no other option. India is facing shortage of coal even to run coal-fired (thermal) stations and it’s beginning to import coal, which is two-three times more expensive than the one available in the domestic market.

"That again will push up electricity cost.Gas prices are linked to petroleum price, which is also going up," he said, adding, cost of solar and wind power is high.

"The first unit is ready to start in a few weeks," Srinivasan said. "There is a lot of shortage of electricity in Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Kerala and everywhere, and this (the project) would be a great boon.We hope that in the next few days, some degree of sense will return and the people can be satisfied."

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 19 Nov 2011 15:22

joshvajohn wrote:Chaanakya, Chetak and Taanaji
In US, UK and other Western countries, hundreds of hindu temples are built with enormous donations from Christians and others besides Hindus. Your languages are utterly unwarrented saying Christian Traitor and so on. Such small number of people's hatred attitude towards other religions have caused enormous troubles for Hindus, Sikhs and Jains in many other countries. If there is another opinion about certain issues, deal in that way and not to use such kind of words. You have right to criticise churches' involvement in protests but do not try to use such terms such as traitors because cultures and countries can grow and surivive only with people with diverse background living and respecting each other. but not generalising and accusing people of other religions. When it comes to an issue of an attack on Hindu temples or religious sentiments in the West some good people including Christians and other religious friends are first to protest joining hands with Hindu people.

You not only fail at basic physics and economics, but are now resorting to utter falsehoods and calumny. This thread has 19 pages and its earlier avatar has been archived. Please provide *one* post where I have said Christians or you are traitors. I am not setting the bar too high given your obvious lack of comprehension skills, but do point out one post of mine. All nuke related threads are archived and a search function is available. It should not be too hard even for you.

My posts were directed at Theo who has been trying his best in the initial versions of the thread to prove that there is no overt church involvement despite repeated reports to the contrary. I have no idea whether the Vatican is involved or not or whether its a Christian conspiracy as alleged by others (FWIW, I dont believe so, its a vested interest group of coal mafia suppliers, truck mafia, NPAs forming an unholy nexus). Finally it was the interview by Udaykumar himself that admitted the church involvement. In fact Theo himself said he would get in touch with the protesters to back off on the church angle.

IF you have a shred of decency or morality left, you will either delete your post that accuses me.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 19 Nov 2011 16:17

Tanaji wrote:
chaanakya wrote: Sorry theo. You are in wrong company.
Do you really expect some questions? You are nothing but christian traitor to the country even though you may have contributed to this country. Your concern is least of our concern though you or your future generations might be directly/indirectly affected.. With the type of low level comments here , you should set your bar trifle low.
Sad but real.

Absolutely saar, the bar has been set way high with assertions such as:

"The Church is not involved"
"TN has 10000 MW of solar power potential, we can use 8000 MW of it to meet all our power needs"
"We said the two reactors are illegal"

There is no way to reach such high standards.

Tanaji
Here you agree and endorse the comments made by Chaanakya which clearly states the person as a Christian Traitor.

Then you should read someone's post before agreeing to it.
For me Church was involved and will involve. It is not the churches' involvement is a problem for me. The question is whether churches are involved for a wrong reason or to stop something of a national interest is a question to debate.
For me the churches' invovlement for the right reasons in any issue to protest against the govt is a welcome step. I would have suggested that the churches should have participate in the Anna's campaign against corruption. Unfortunately some churches in India are also corrupt which we are trying to fight againt.

My question whether the govt blame that the protestors have received foreign money is under a question which is yet to be proved. For convenience sake the govt cannot simply blame the protestors rather engage with them in a dialogic way though sometimes the protestors seem unreasonable. If you notice the public (media and progroups) in South Tamil NAdu has reacted a bit againt the protestors for their unreasonable demands.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 19 Nov 2011 16:36

Eh, where am I agreeing with Chanakya's post? My comment was a sarcastic come back to his following comment

With the type of low level comments here , you should set your bar trifle low.

None of the quotes in my post are mine, and can be referenced to respective parties. Maybe I should have just quoted the relevant part of Chanakyas post rather than the whole post since your sarcasm meter is broken. BTW arent Chanakyaa and Theo on the same side? Wasnt he being sarcastic in his post as well?

I am still waiting for your to point out the traitor biz.

habal · Post by **habal** » 19 Nov 2011 16:59

Not following this discussion, but Vatican is deeply involved in oil trade and profiteering from oil. In the case of oil, Rockefeller, JP Morgan, Chase Manhattan & Vatican are all on the same side. Perhaps it is their perception that India getting oil independent is not beneficial for their cause because India is a huge market for artificially inflated oil. So when you look at the boots on the ground, most of the local boots may belong to the catholic or anglican church. So these boots were readily used.

the conspirators or Dr. Kalam's 'market forces' have used the available boots on the ground, if not these guys someone else would have had to be found or developed. India also hosts forces who are antipathetic to christian groups and thus that would be another opportunity for conflict, should that arise. Thus there are plenty of Indians who are against calling the bluff openly. this is the situation.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 19 Nov 2011 17:19

Tanaji If you did not agree with the comment made by Chaanakya as Christian Traitor (whether it is written sarcastically or in any other way) I withdraw my comments about you. Such terms are generally used by Pakistan extremist groups against minorities.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 19 Nov 2011 17:32

if you look at the questions the fisher men asked , things become pretty apparent ... the so called "dr," who is an amreeki citizen is a crook working for panda or khanate... he fed the fishermen and villagers and possibly religious insti's with the crap , which they believed in...some of the people in the protest acted in good faith..but were themselves unaware that they are being misled by anti-national people.. its quite simple in India..go to any plac of worship..talk in scientific sounding language against the industry or power plant you are against...You ll find a lot of crap against everything in the internet... (like mobile towers give you cancer , mobile towers kill sparrows etc ).. sound genuinely concerned and bingo you have the priest on your side.. Go to a village and do the same to the sarpanch...thereafter the sarpanch and the priest will take care of the rest... they ll actually be convinced that they are saving the world.. after this no amount of coaxing and cajoling will be able to change there beliefs ...

There was an article in Lancet that the MMR vaccine causes autism... It was a malicious article written by one of the most unscrupulous doctors in the world... The vaccination rate dropped to 20%..even after the fraud was proven people did not regain faith in the vaccine....

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Nov 2011 17:56

joshvajohn wrote:Tanaji If you did not agree with the comment made by Chaanakya as Christian Traitor (whether it is written sarcastically or in any other way) I withdraw my comments about you. Such terms are generally used by Pakistan extremist groups against minorities.

Joshvajohn- read Chanakya's post again and you will get the meaning, He is on the same side of Theo. What he said is that in a very few posters minds, irrespective of the fact that for Indian Christians, like Indian Hindus, the future prospects of them as well as their children will be the same which is Indian prosperity, they have made up their mind that the whole community is traitors and will never change even if flaws are shown in their arguments.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 19 Nov 2011 22:36

Guys, Chanakya was being funny but... ...once you drag in faith things go sideways...

Poe's law http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law

Poe's Law is an axiom suggesting that it's difficult to distinguish between parodies of religious fundamentalism and its genuine proponents, since they both seem equally insane.

1. The original idea that at least one person will mistake parody postings for sincere beliefs.
2. That nobody will be able to distinguish many instances of parody posts from the real thing.
3. That anyone not already in the grip of fundamentalist ideas will mistake sincere expressions of fundamentalism for parody.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The aim of the Kudankulam protestors is to change the way Nuclear power is being done in this area. I would hope DAE applies those lessons in the rest of India.
Right now Nuclear power is being done with the following failings.

- It is being done on the cheap. Yes, Rs 18,000 Crore (Don't believe that silly 13,000 crore number) for a 2000 MW reactor is extraordinarily cheap by world standards. A modern 2000 MW reactor would cost ~ Rs 30,000 Crore+. The modern EPR reactor in Finland is costing Rs 32,000 Crore ($6 Billion) (So far) for just ~1600 MW. Decisions on the economic side over safety were made. Don't kid yourself on this.
- No fully independent hard nosed regulatory safety agency exists. The new independent regulator bill is a sham.
- Secrecy. The agency can act in a high handed manner because it is not required to disclose any information on performance at all. We can't even ask how much was spent on Kudankulam as even that info is classified. This has developed into this cosy cabal of unaccountable bureaucrats (not engineers and scientists) who run around making politically expedient decisions, pat each other on the back and pretend their performance is world class.
- End of life plan. One of the wierd things about Nuclear is that they have a definite end date. Used to be 60 years but now about 40 years, in many case now 25 years when radiation damage causes the entire plant to be unsafe and to be shut down. DAE has no need to work/inform/be accountable to locals in terms of safety and long term material concerns, such as wastes, spent fuel and decommissioning. For instance in the US a highly contaminated plant will cost $5 Billion of so to dismantle and decontaminate. No such long term plan exists. No estimate of cost has been prepared.
- Training esp. for emergency response and evacuation. No response units equipment. No evacuation zones. No long term evacuation lands. All these are issues.

DAE has been functioning in a relatively amateurish and unaccountable manner for 50+ years. This was OK because they mostly ran small 200 MW plants. Now that they are running 1000 MW plants their attitude and operations must change. The system needs a complete overhaul until we proceed.

All the major accidents have happened at 1000 MW type plants. There is a reason for this.

I've been reading a tremendous amount on Nuclear power and it has left me quite shaken. There is a tremendous amount that Nuclear Engineers do not know or understand. So much hand wringing that calculations on paper never match reality yet orders to proceed are given. At every step economic decisions overwhelm concerns for safety. Alvin Weinberg the designer and source of much of the technology behind these plants was very upset that his design originally intended for 50 MW type navy reactors was scaled up to 1000 MW+ for economic reasons. He abandoned the technology as simply too unreliable and spent the rest of his life working on alternative designs. To the very end he warned that these designs are deeply failure prone, esp. uncontrollably.

Highly recommend his book, 'First Nuclear Era'. Everyone who cares about this topic should read this book. Get the hard cover for you collection as I did. At amazon the chapter on Faustian Bargain can be read for free. Know that this is what Nuclear engineers were deciding on.

Also watch this excellent documentary on Nuclear power with Nuclear engineers. It is not a doom and gloom video just an examination of engineers views on what went wrong early on. Watch Weinberg from minute 36:00 onwards.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2456&hl=en

Key question, "..can modern intrusive technology and liberal democracy co-exist."

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Nov 2011 23:49

Tanaji wrote:Eh, where am I agreeing with Chanakya's post? My comment was a sarcastic come back to his following comment

With the type of low level comments here , you should set your bar trifle low.
None of the quotes in my post are mine, and can be referenced to respective parties. Maybe I should have just quoted the relevant part of Chanakyas post rather than the whole post since your sarcasm meter is broken. BTW arent Chanakyaa and Theo on the same side? Wasnt he being sarcastic in his post as well?

I am still waiting for your to point out the traitor biz.

ditto

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 20 Nov 2011 00:44

Er...

The aim of the Kudankulam protestors is to change the way Nuclear power is being done in this area.

No not really absolutely not. Their aim is to stop the reactor completely. There have been plenty of statements from the protestors about how the reactor needs to be scrapped. You are trying to present a reasonable face for them, fact is, that is not the case at all. They want the reactor gone, period. There is no "change" or give and take, they want it scrapped. Stop trying to portray this as a reasonable request.

It is being done on the cheap. Yes, Rs 18,000 Crore (Don't believe that silly 13,000 crore number) for a 2000 MW reactor is extraordinarily cheap by world standards. A modern 2000 MW reactor would cost ~ Rs 30,000 Crore+. The modern EPR reactor in Finland is costing Rs 32,000 Crore ($6 Billion) (So far) for just ~1600 MW. Decisions on the economic side over safety were made. Don't kid yourself on this.

Janaab, just in the above 2 sentences you have quoted 3 numbers, one of which is nearly twice the other, which itself is an indicator that you dont know the cost yourself. So how do you know it is done on the cheap? Then there is the $6 Billion number... Wiki quotes http://www.neimagazine.com/story.asp?se ... de=2060192 saying that it is really 6 Billion Euros. Yes, I know, even more than what you state, but leads me to believe that you don't know what the true cost is. You are just quoting numbers for the heck of it. Secondly, how do you directly compare European costs with Indian ones? All these are just numbers, there are assumptions behind these numbers, you cant just willy nilly quote them and say its being done on the cheap when you have no clue as to what the true cost is in Indian terms?

No fully independent hard nosed regulatory safety agency exists. The new independent regulator bill is a sham.

Why is it a sham? I suppose will it stop being a sham only if a Prafool Bidwai (this creature is an expert on all matters: high energy physics, nuclear strategy, Indian defence, sociology, truly an omniscient one..) is made a founding member?

Secrecy. The agency can act in a high handed manner because it is not required to disclose any information on performance at all. We can't even ask how much was spent on Kudankulam as even that info is classified.

Hain jee? You just said Rs. 13000 crore was wrong and it is Rs. 18000 crore. Now you are saying GoI is secretive and does not divulge information. So how do you know what it is?

- Training esp. for emergency response and evacuation. No response units equipment. No evacuation zones. No long term evacuation lands. All these are issues.

You are seriously banging the drum from both ends. Weren't you the one screaming a few pages back that GoI had put in an exclusion zone of 15 km (or was it 40? I forget...) and it was affecting a lot of villagers and was unfair? Now you are saying there are no exclusion zones? At least be consistent in your arguments man!
Add to that fact the Great Leader Udaykumar claiming that the very fact that GoI is carrying out emergency procedures is a sign that it is not confident of the reactor.
For Goi, it is damned if you do and damned if you dont with attitudes like these.

Alvin Weinberg the designer and source of much of the technology behind these plants was very upset that his design originally intended for 50 MW type navy reactors was scaled up to 1000 MW+ for economic reasons.

What has this got to do *anything* with the EPR or Kundankulum ? Did Weinberg contribute to the VVER design of Kundankulum? Add to the fact that his contributions and period of activity were no more than 1975 or so. Things have come a long way since then. Or do you think everything remained static and all reactor designers and engineers keep a photo of Weinberg in their offices and garland it everyday and ape his design?
Stop making insinuations.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Nov 2011 03:35

I am very worried about the Montalto nuclear plant being situated so close to the Holy See. Especially since Italian culture is known to be somewhat lackadaisical in respect of inspections, safety, not to mention the influx of Muslims and the ever present danger of the red brigade being reprised.

I hope the good clergy in TN can also find time to express their concerns.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2011 05:32

Most likely all this was to force MMS to open up bu he didnt

Start N-trade but within our laws: PM to Obama
CNN-IBN

http://ibnlive. in.com/news/ start-ntrade- but-within- our-laws- pm-to-obama/ 203568-3. html

New Delhi: On the busy day when he had meetings with two of the most powerful leaders of the world, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh told President Barack Obama that US should start nuclear trade with India and also met Chinese premier Wen Jiabao reasserting India's right to explore oil in the South China Sea. He held back-to-back meetings with Obama and Wen on the sidelines of the ASEAN Summit.
Singh first met Obama and told him that there were no irritants in Indo-US ties. Behind closed doors, the PM explained India's nuclear liability rules which would limit supplier liability in case of an accident.

US companies should begin nuclear trade with India, he urged Obama while ruling out any major changes in liability law in the future. The PM then met his Chinese counterpart for almost an hour, reasserting India's right to explore oil in the South China Sea.
Contending that there were "no irritants whatsoever" in Indo-US ties, Singh told Obama that India had gone 'some way' to allay the concerns of US firms by notifying rules for nuclear business and any specific grievance would be addressed within the 'four corners' of Indian laws.

The issue came up during the over one-hour meeting between Singh and Obama in Bali against the backdrop of apprehensions among US firms that Indian liability laws were not supplier friendly.

"I explained to him (Obama) that we have a law in place. Rules have been formulated. These rules will lie before our Parliament for 30 days. Therefore, we have gone some way to respond to the concerns of American companies and within the four corners of the law of the land we are willing to address any specific grievances," Singh told reporters after his meeting with Obama on the sidelines of the ASEAN and East Asia Summits in this island resort of Indonesia.

The rules, which were notified on Wednesday, make it clear among other things that there would be no unlimited or unending liability on part of the suppliers.

Singh said he had also told Obama that India was ready to ratify the Convention on Supplementary Compensation (CSC), another issue that the US wants to be done as part of implementation of the civil nuclear deal.

"That's where the matter stands," he said.

Sources said the issue came up during the course of review of implementation of decisions taken by the two sides. They claimed that Obama did not respond and merely 'noted' the Prime Minister's statement.

Obama said, "This will be a outstanding opportunity for us to continue this and to explore how we can work together, not only on bilateral issues but also on multi- lateral forum."
The US does see India as a key strategic partner in the region, so this was an important bilateral meeting. Now the strength of India's economy is significant, so it makes sense to have India as an economic partner and obama over the past few days over his visit to this region has said that he sees the long term eco-future for the US in India.
And some of the topics that were discussed - economy, maritime security, and of course the N-liability law, in 2008 Obama signed a significant energy deal, but many energy firms which have tried to move into India say that the law is too stringent and it is difficult to be competitive so that is something that they would have wanted to talk about.
The PM told the Chinese premier that India wouldn't take sides in China's territorial disputes with its neighbours over South China Sea but India did have a right to exploit the sea's oil and gas commercially.
"We are committed to developing the best of relations with China and strategic and formulated relationship. We are neighbours and also to large extent great economies of Asia. We should co-operate on the issues regional,bilateral and global," the PM said.
A range of issues, including the situation along the Line of Actual Control and trade was discussed during the 55-minute meeting with Singh saying India was committed to developing the 'best of relations' with China while the latter underlined that the two countries should work 'hand-in-hand' to ensure that the 21st century belongs to Asia.
"This matter did come up in the context of East Asia Summit (taking place here on Saturday)," Secretary (East) in the External Affairs Ministry Sanjay Singh told reporters when asked whether the issue of Chinese objections to India's exploration of oil in South China Sea figured in the talks between Singh and Wen.
The Prime Minister "observed that exploration of oil and gas in South China Sea by India is purely commercial activity", the Secretary said about the issue that has caused irritation in the ties between the two countries in the recent past.
The issue appears to have been raised by Wen.
External Affairs Ministry spokesman Vishnu Prakash told reporters that the Chinese Premier said that "he valued the role India is playing in the EAS. In that context, there was a mention of South China Sea to which the Prime Minister said our interests are purely commercial."
China, which lays claim over entire South China Sea, had openly attacked India in September over its move to explore oil in the maritime area on offer from Vietnam. It had evoked a sharp retort from India.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Nov 2011 05:32

sanjaykumar wrote:I am very worried about the Montalto nuclear plant being situated so close to the Holy See. Especially since Italian culture is known to be somewhat lackadaisical in respect of inspections, safety, not to mention the influx of Muslims and the ever present danger of the red brigade being reprised.

I hope the good clergy in TN can also find time to express their concerns.

This plant was shut down before completion. It never operated.

Currently italy has a ban on nuclear power.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Nov 2011 05:41

chetak wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:I am very worried about the Montalto nuclear plant being situated so close to the Holy See. Especially since Italian culture is known to be somewhat lackadaisical in respect of inspections, safety, not to mention the influx of Muslims and the ever present danger of the red brigade being reprised.

I hope the good clergy in TN can also find time to express their concerns.
This plant was shut down before completion. It never operated.
Currently italy has a ban on nuclear power.

Tirupati too doesn't use nuclear energy. That doesn't mean anything.

Good for them. Italy population is 60 million and has 10 times the area of Kerala. I suggest these Moralistic Christians go and demand nuclear energy and nuclear weapons removed from christian lands where they are a majority.

member_20036 · Post by **member_20036** » 20 Nov 2011 09:02

Dont know posted or not

Link:
Now a fast in support of Kudankulam N-plant