Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7115
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Muppalla »

darshhan wrote:
Muppalla wrote:^^^
Western UP will have 35% of muslims but based on current trends, the Hindus there polarize against Muslims in election times. However, once the state is formed there could be new vote formations such as Muslims+Dalits or even Ajit Singh or some Thakur can come up with Jats or Thakurs + Muslims. To apease 35% a sharia can be implemented like the caste panchayats. There is room for extreme bad politiking.
Muppalla ji, I am afraid that you will be proven right atleast in the short to medium term.Once the state comes into being , every party would be looking to create its own votebanks as a shortcut to grabbing power.This would definitely mean that Islamists will have more leverage and bargaining capacity than what the population of muslims in Western UP suggest.
That is why I totally disagree with UP division. UP division is bad from a centrifugal force of the politics perspective. Agreed that UP governance is bad but that is the cost they have to pay for now. Sorry for being insensitive as I don't mean any harm anyone.

India's core is a flawed core. India should have formed with one of the two cores:
(1) Easter UP + Bihar + Jharkhand with Patna as capital of India - Repetition on the foundation of Magadh
(2) MP+Rajasthan+Bhundelkand as Core - Geographical center of India and gungo fighters of Invasions.
or
(3) Throw the linguistic BS to wind and create Maha+KA+AP on Satavahana empire foundation

Making UP with so much Azamgargh type Muslims as core of Indian politics itself was a wrong foundation. It is the JLN's vision.

At this time India should stop all this state division bs whether is it Western UP or Telangana.

Per wikipedia - Area wise UP is smaller than MP, Rajasthan, Maha and AP too. Is it really true?
devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by devesh »

Klaus wrote:
devesh wrote: any other interpretations?
The new-age resource rich England. It is neither withdrawal into the Western Pacific nor projection into the IOR. Which is why the term Indo-Pacific was coined from the very same sources sometime ago, has an interesting twist from the viewpoint of the Teutonics (This new term firmly places PRC, ASEAN and Oz as the centre-block of the Indo-Pacific, the equivalent of Europe between USA and FSU during the 2 World Wars and Cold War). It frees them up to carry out their experiments which might have failed in other arenas such as the sub-continent and the CONUS.

It also means that the CANZUS views the western Indo-Pacific (Africa and subcontinent) as the FSU of the future (geopolitically). Conversely, from a non-western viewpoint it makes Oz's geopolitical position that much more nebulous (which is plainly horrifying for Sandy Gordon and their ilk).

Also US presence along Perth-Darwin-Guam axis implies that they have firm control of the Lombok straits and other Indonesian waterways. Indonesia and Philippines might be stretched out in their own backyards if they attempt to side with any one bloc (including India).

http://www.nbr.org/publications/strateg ... tralia.pdf
Australia is at a difficult juncture. For the first time in its history, this
mid-sized democracy at the southern edge of maritime Asia is confronted by
the simultaneous rise of two Asian great powers
, China and India. In 2009,
China overtook Japan to become Australia’s top trading partner, the first
time this status has been held by a state that is not also Canberra’s security
guarantor, or that ally’s ally, and that does not share Australia’s democratic
values. The potential for a contested Asia, in which China and India loom
large
, poses critical new challenges to Australia’s security, long-reliant on
an open and stable regional order underwritten by U.S. dominance.
1
For
now, Australia is enjoying the best of both worlds. The rapid economic
growth of China and India provides massive markets for the country’s
abundant mineral and energy reserves, while U.S. preeminence underwrites
Australian security. But questions are emerging about how long these good
times can last and whether the nation has a strategy for an Indo-Pacific era
of Chinese and Indian strength.

In this context, Australia is beginning to face uncomfortable strategic
challenges and decisions. These primarily involve potential choices between
its security ally, the United States, and its premier economic partner, China,
a nation that buys almost a quarter of Australian exports and has deepening
links through business, migration, education, and tourism.
2
The starkest
questions revolve around whether and how the alliance with the United
States might one day be invoked in a possible military confrontation with
Beijing
. More broadly, there is the question of whether Australia might
differ with the United States or others in how far it would be willing to see
Chinese interests accommodated in the regional order. Canberra’s recent
reaffirmation of the alliance suggests that a near-term divergence between
Australia and the United States on this front remains unlikely, even if some
analysts argue that it is a serious risk in the longer term.
3
The rise of India makes Asia’s power dynamics more complicated but
also potentially more beneficial for Australia. India has become Australia’s
fourth-largest export market and one of its fastest-growing, at an average
of 20% a year.
4
India buys about 7% of Australian exports, and Canberra is
eager to complement this with a serious strategic partnership. But Australia
is encountering frustrations here, including in establishing political trust
and strategic relevance, despite common democratic values and shared
security interests. Progress will probably require awkward policy choices
in Canberra, including ending its ban on uranium sales to India. Looking
ahead, Australia faces challenges in simultaneously engaging China and
India while adapting its U.S. alliance. The time may come when Canberra
must choose not only between Beijing and Washington but also between
Beijing and New Delhi.
Thus, there are both parallels and great contrasts between Australia’s
relations with China and India. Relations with both involve economic
enmeshment. Societal links are also growing rapidly through migration,
business, tourism, and education. Yet qualitative differences between
Australia’s relations with China and India are emerging on security and
values-based issues.
This chapter is divided into four sections. The first provides an overview
of how Australia perceives its national interests—with reference to economics,
security, and values—and how these interests are likely to be affected by
the rise of China and India. The second and central part of the chapter
surveys Australia’s historical interactions with China and India in terms of
geopolitics, economics, society, and security, including military and nuclear
issues. This is followed by an assessment of whether Australia’s efforts to
protect national interests in response to the rise of China and India amount
to a coherent strategy. It will be argued that the rudiments of a strategy are
becoming clear, but that questions remain over how coherent, sustained,
and effective this approach will be. These responses are influenced by a mix
of economic, security, and values-based drivers, which sometimes reinforce
and sometimes cut across one another. Australia’s resulting approach is
a hybrid one: economic and diplomatic enmeshment combined with a
hedging strategy against the unknown ways China might use its future
power. This hedging strategy involves increasing Australia’s own military
weight, intensifying the U.S. alliance, and building security links with large
democratic Asian partners, including India. The chapter concludes by
considering the policy implications for Washington of Canberra’s response
to the rise of China and India and presenting ways in which the United
States might further coordinate its strategies toward China and India with
those of its antipodean ally.

Australia’s Strategic Interests:
Why China and India Matter So Much

To grasp the profound impact of the rise of China and India on
Australia’s interests, it is necessary to appreciate how Canberra perceives
those interests. Australia has singular geopolitical circumstances. It is the
only nation in the world to possess an island continent, which bestows
strategic depth, vast maritime jurisdiction, and globally important natural
resource deposits. Australia is the world’s largest exporter of iron ore and
coal, has the largest uranium deposits, and is also a major supplier of natural
gas, gold, and other commodities.
5
This is combined with high per capita
wealth, a stable democratic system, a resilient and multicultural society, a
small but advanced defense force, and a diplomatic record of strong globa

preview of Rory Metcalfe's essay.....
Aussies are clearly paranoid that they're going to become a pawn in the vast game that is beginning to start all around them. squeezed on 3 sides by US, PRC, and India. and on the other side, facing the Antarctic...
Klaus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2168
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 12:28
Location: Cicero Avenue

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Klaus »

Was alluding to US presence and strengths in Oceania. In a way, US has real and tangible strategic depth in the continent, in all manner of ways from demographically to mil-infrastructure and operating protocol. Oz was always going to be in a dilemma. But Metcalfe and others fail to consider individual arenas within the Oceania region. The dynamics and regional flows around East Timor is certainly not the same as the ones around the Luzon strait or Spratly group.

Another aspect is that the ANZUS will be able to claim military advantage if they are able to keep the PLAN north of the Lombok straits in the event of a skirmish, whereas PLAN can only claim victory if it is able to occupy Port Moresby or Darwin. IOW US-Oz alliance can redirect the PRC's collateral damage on the backs of the Indonesians, Filipinos and Timorese while claiming victory from a stalemate situation, with hardly any serious loss of infra or capability. It was under the aegis of such scenario gaming that New Zealand was voluntarily able to give up its amphibious heavy lift capabilities.
Abhi_G
BRFite
Posts: 715
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 21:42

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Abhi_G »

The area of Bharatiya influence has reduced in the past millennium. Nobody knows what the future holds. Loss of more land to sustained invasion leads to attrition of Bharatiya influence from the subjugated lands. I do not understand where the "rebound back" is going to come from. Loss of territory is a permanent loss. Loss of Siddharaja Jaysimha by "outside" forces of course cleanses the system of traitors, but it is a permanent cleansing of Bharatiya influence at the same time. The Hindu generations later on just have to accept that no blade of grass ever grew there, so what is the big deal?

I do not get any sign of joy by the notion of external actors cleaning the plate on our behalf. It means a continuation of slavery that we are still under. A partitioned India had someone like JLN that has set off another round of cleaning the slate - another round of loss of territory where no grass ever grew anyway. It only reinforces paki general's thought of India being just too big - slice it, dice it, crumble it to smaller pieces and then have the fun. Where is the romantic joy coming from the fragmentation, I do not know.

Brihaspati, sorry for the pessimistic and perhaps OT post.
darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2937
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by darshhan »

Loss of territory is a permanent loss.
Abhi_G ji , No it is not.I can give countless examples including in India itself which would prove this statement wrong.If anything , in a way Indics have gained territory in the last 300 years since the time of Aurangzeb's rule.
darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2937
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by darshhan »

Brihaspati ji , just a question.Who was Siddhraja Jaisimha and exactly what he did?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60240
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by ramana »

Rory Medacalf learnt his craft from KS garu. He wrote a very nice eulogy.

The difference between the older Asian giants and now is earlier there was no America. Now the Indo Pacific stretches from East coast of Africa to West coast of America. The world is now flatter.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

darshhan wrote:Brihaspati ji , just a question.Who was Siddhraja Jaisimha and exactly what he did?
He is my favourite goat - in a historical sense. He is a favourite of the Thaparites for sponsoring or allowing Islamist merchants from the Gulf to set up mosques and funding for maintenance and up keep of Islamist institutions. Look up the "eminent historians" writings on Somnath and the so-called Pattan inscription. Prof "eminent historian" Thapar consistently writes about how "amicable" and bhaichara was the collaborative relationship under the late Gujarat kings - from this inscription in Sanskrit - between local Hindu/Jain merchants and Islamists. She never mentions the other inscription in Arabic which is connected to the same "issue" and translated by the same historian, and translated and published in the same volume of epigraphia Indica - which indicates that this great "peaceful" Islamist was at the same time nursing the standard ummahic ambitions to unleash his parent theology on the "unsuspecting" Hindus.

There are parallel narratives from Islamic narrators who praise Siddharaja Jayasimha as a Gujarat ruler who went out of his way to be "fair" to Muslims and Muslim interests. The Pattan inscription is in the period of Arjunadeva, son of Vishaaldeva - the commander who united Gujarat for a time after death of Bhimadeva, who is most likely to have been [there is some dispute] connected to Kumarapala, a subordinate feudal of Siddharaja - who had no known sons [or no eligible male descendant].

To be fair the Anhilwada rulers sporadically fought off the Muslim invasions. But that they were also not really into the "total warfare" stuff - a complete eradication of all sources of Islamic strength - is shown by known evidence of allowing Muslim implantations among themselves, as shown by Siddharaja. A mosque was always - from the earliest times - during even the foundation days of Islam - had always been used also as a military HQ or centre for planning and sourcing assasinations. There are quite a few incidents mentioned in the Shai Hadith of Bukhari where Muhammad asks for/calls for assassinations, and from which jihadis march out for ambushes [as in the expedition against allies Banu Quraizah to loot their camels and women and kill the men].

Thus a funded mosque on the busy Somnath coast would be a perfect spot to gather and supply intelligence to the Islamic armies and rulers based around Gujarat. A ruler who failed to realize this was a poor statesperson who would eventually be the cause of establishing the roots of an institutional framework that would serve as a key tool of Islamist military success - intelligence gathering/propaganda/foreign collaboration - all carried out under pious religious excuses from strategic locations close to places from where observations of key personnel and processes would be easy.

Taranath and others note the rapid increase of "Turuskas" in key temple/university/capital towns just prior to Islamic invasions. They also talk of the "strange" regular "singing" from their "assembly houses" - which probably indicates the rudimentary mosques near key urban centres - which fell to Muslim armies not long after.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Abhi_G wrote:The area of Bharatiya influence has reduced in the past millennium. Nobody knows what the future holds. Loss of more land to sustained invasion leads to attrition of Bharatiya influence from the subjugated lands. I do not understand where the "rebound back" is going to come from. Loss of territory is a permanent loss. Loss of Siddharaja Jaysimha by "outside" forces of course cleanses the system of traitors, but it is a permanent cleansing of Bharatiya influence at the same time. The Hindu generations later on just have to accept that no blade of grass ever grew there, so what is the big deal?

I do not get any sign of joy by the notion of external actors cleaning the plate on our behalf. It means a continuation of slavery that we are still under. A partitioned India had someone like JLN that has set off another round of cleaning the slate - another round of loss of territory where no grass ever grew anyway. It only reinforces paki general's thought of India being just too big - slice it, dice it, crumble it to smaller pieces and then have the fun. Where is the romantic joy coming from the fragmentation, I do not know.

Brihaspati, sorry for the pessimistic and perhaps OT post.
No need to be sorry oh "Fearless"! :)

There is a very cold calculation behind allowing or being "joyful" at Islamist onslaught on the GV plains.
(1) It shuts up the propaganda of the theology being "peaceful" and no violent-expansion design
(2) it forces people to take sides, and hidden sympathies or identifications to be revealed
(3) it removes from "identity" power those who pretend to belong to "us" but in reality who are simple hedgers of their continued profits.
(4) It shows the weaknesses of allowing this theology contiguous territories and pockets connected by easy communication/transport networks [such as rivers/roads/railways/fordable dry-season crossings etc] - and crucially locations to survive with their institutions within spread out populations not belong to their theology. A future reorganization would then have learnt the lessons. JLN used that lesson to expel "territories" in the name of consolidation - but we will need to expel the "theology+institutions" for consolidation.
(5) the state as it stands now - is based on the population and economics of the northern arc economic-demographic flow. It is using this rashtryia strength to support/protect basically foreign imperialist ideology driven networks. Mercantile mentality driven elite networks sponsor this hoping to keep their profit flows intact. Unless that state itself weakens in the north - the foreign imperialist ideology and their institutions will continue to flourish in order to satisfy their long term aim of wiping out all traces of the "pagan" [basically a manipulation by their respective foreign broad power centres to fool Indians into thinking that there is no ulterior imperialist design behind this - peaceful "truth" propagation onlee].

That growth engine for driving this particular neo-imperialist movement - with support from "hedgers" of risks - has to be slowed down. Allowing the Islamists to do the honours is the best option - for in their desperate eagerness, mullahs usually do not stop to think of the consequences of their own mad rush for power.
Abhi_G
BRFite
Posts: 715
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 21:42

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Abhi_G »

Is cyclical development of extreme mercantile attitude a bane of our civilization? Or it happens with all? Or is it that since we are the only continuous civilization, we have oral and written traditions that show that history uncannily repeats. Still we are unable to learn. Or simly put philosophically, everything is maya onlee, what Mahakaal thinks is bound to happen and we are resigned to fate.

The fact is, loss of territory means total loss of Indic influence from that area - examples are obvious, the land to the west. How many Kashmiri Pandits are ever going back to their original homes believing that their future generations will be safe and sound there? The situation is so pathetic that for any future re-integration means total detoxification of that area. It is true that such detoxifications have occurred in the past - in Rajasthan, i.e., bringing back people to the indigeneous moorings. But the efforts have been too small and maybe temporary. A demographic siege has started neutralizing the gains in many parts in the east. GoI is ready to give up land....of course some land is coming in exchange. But what is the effect on the lives of the Hindus there? The perfidious jaysimhas ALWAYS seem to have an upper hand in India - strangulating any resurgence move. Probably our nation has more traitors amidst ourselves at all times.
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Airavat »

"mercantile attitude" or Muslim settlers in the cities of Gujarat did not cause it's fall to the Delhi Sultanate in 1299. Because in that same time frame the Rajput forts of the north, and Maharashtra, AP, K'taka in the south all fell to the same sultanate armies.

Meanwhile Kerala, which had Arab settlers and mosques far exceeding anything in Gujarat, never fell to the Islamist invaders in that period.
member_19686
BRFite
Posts: 1330
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by member_19686 »

Z.A. Desai has noted some differences between the Arabic and the Sanskrit versions. “For example,” he writes, “the Arabic inscription does not give all the details regarding the sources of income, the procedure for its expenditure, management, etc., which are mentioned at some length in the Sanskrit record. Also, the Arabic version mentions only the leader of prayer (imãm), caller to prayers (mu’addhin) and the cities of Mecca and Medina among the beneficiaries… Likewise, no mention is made of the provision for the celebration of religious festivals as stated in the Sanskrit record. Further, in the extant portion of the Arabic record, we do not find mention of the then Vãghelã king of Gujarat, Arjunadeva… On the other hand, the Arabic version gives some more information regarding the status and position of Pîrûz (Fîrûz) and his father Abû Ibrãhîm. For example, Fîrûz is called therein ‘the great and respected chief (sadr), prince among sea-men, and king of kings and merchants.’ He is further eulogised as the ‘Sun of Islãm and Muslims, patron of kings and monarchs, shelter of the great and the elite, pride of the age’, etc. Likewise, his father, Abû Ibrãhîm, son of Muhammad al-‘Irãqî, is also mentioned with such lofty titles as ‘the great chief of fortunate position, protector of Islãm and the Muslims, patron of kings and monarchs, prince among great men of the time, master of generosity and magnanimity’, etc. Needless to say, all these titles are absent in the Sanskrit version.”5

One wonders, however, why the learned epigraphist has overlooked the most glaring difference in the two versions and tried to cover it up by stating that “in the extant portion of the Arabic record, we do not find mention of the then Vãghelã king of Gujarat.” The record is complete for all practical purposes except for a few gaps which the epigraphist has filled up creditably with the help of his long experience in reading and reconstructing such inscriptions. It is difficult to imagine that the name of Arjunadeva, the then Vãghelã king of Gujarat, could have occurred in any of these gaps even if the king was stripped of all his appellations. Moreover, the name of a Hindu king could have found no place in the scheme followed in the inscription.

The scheme followed in the inscription is similar to that which we find in thousands of such inscriptions set up on mosques and other Muslim monuments all over India, before and after AD 1264. The name of the ruling Muslim monarch with his appellations finds a prominent place in most of these inscriptions. And that is exactly what we find in the present instance. The only difference is that there being no Muslim monarch at that time in Gujarat and Gujarat being a Hindu kingdom independent of the Delhi Sultanate, the builder of the mosque chose the king of Hormuz for showing his solidarity with Dãr al-Isãm.

That in itself was objectionable enough for a subject of the Hindu king of Gujarat or a resident alien doing business in Gujarat. The mosque was erected at Prabhas Patan which was situated in the kingdom of Gujarat and not at a place in the kingdom of Hormuz. But the builder went much farther as, after extolling the king of Hormuz as “the source of glory for Islãm and the Muslims,” he prayed fervently that “may his affair and prestige be high in the city of Somnãt, may Allãh make it one of the cities of Islãm, and [banish?] infidelity and idols” from it. In other words, he was praying for and looking forward to another Islamic invasion of Gujarat.

Comparing the Sanskrit and Arabic versions of this inscription, the conclusion is unavoidable that the Muslim merchant from Hormuz had eschewed carefully from the Sanskrit version what he had included confidently in the Arabic text. He must have been sure in his mind that no Hindu from Prabhas Patan or elsewhere was likely to compare the two texts and that even if a Hindu noticed the difference between the two he was not likely to understand its meaning and purport. At the same time, he was sharing with his co-religionists in Gujarat a pious aspiration enjoined on all believers by the tenets of Islam...

Only a state and a population that did not know or understand the tenets of Islam and the obligations which those tenets imposed upon every Muslim, could permit these seditious settlements in its leading cities and ports. There is little doubt that each one of these settlements served as an intelligence network for Islamic invaders. The missionaries of Islam who took care of the flock might have hoodwinked the Hindus around them with their pieties. But the faithful understood the message of these missionaries and readily served as advance guards of the armies of Islam hovering on the borders of Gujarat.

http://www.voiceofdharma.com/books/htemples2/ch3.htm
devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by devesh »

the merchant/trading aspects of Islam provided advanced information on the political situation in the country. the South kingdoms fell to the Sultanate too. but you immediately see a revival attempt in the form of Vijayanagara within a couple of decades of the fall. but no such possibility in North. IMVHO, this is the reason why Maha areas took longer to rise from the debris of Islam: their proximity to Guj trading centers and consequently strong dependency on those networks.

Kerala is a different game. it is in extreme South. the Sultanate probably had no interest in that territory. probably just content with extending into Deccan at the time.

as for rest of North, once the Gujarat trading ports fell and the Sindh+Punjab and Upper-Central GV fell to the hordes, the networks would then have been taken over and the effect translated into almost complete inability to stage a revival...
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Airavat ji,
devesh ji's pointers are significant. Wherever muslim settlements were long established - there was a corresponding proportionate delay or difficulty in revival of the non-Muslim. We have information now as to the increasing proportion of conversion of Gujarati mercantile class into Islam in this period. The southern heartland was "passed through" by the raiding Islamists - but their regime implantations always remained shaky. Not so Gujarat or Rajasthan - which needed overall decimation of Muslim power in the northern economic arc to start coming back again. This is not to say that Gujarat Rajasthan became devoid of resistance - but the resistance could not make it into a sustainable region wide regime on its own - until given the break by Maratha attrition of Mughal power, and later on by the Brits.

Kerala - I guess only got the benefit of decline of Arab naval power at the right moment of time. Having said that , that coastal region was beginning to show signs of Islamic subregional powers and regimes - werent they - at the time being mentioned?
Nick_S
BRFite
Posts: 534
Joined: 23 Jul 2011 16:05
Location: Abbatabad

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Nick_S »

There seems to be a lot of stuff in this thread on our past history rather than "Future Strategic Scenario". :roll:
devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by devesh »

"past" usually has significant lessons for the future. and in the Indian scenario, the situations that existed centuries ago still exist today, so past does "repeat" with the required changes to suit the modern era.

but if you start reading this thread form the beginning, there is a lot of stuff about "future" scenarios and threats.
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Airavat »

The Turk conquests in Rajasthan were rolled back in the 14th and 15th centuries, and these kingdoms were strong enough to beat the neighboring sultanates and even make a bid for the conquest of the Gangetic plains. In the south, the Bahmani sultanate was hardly shaky, and Devesh attributes this to Maharashtra's proximity to Gujarat "trading networks"......but Rajasthan is even more closely linked to Gujarat and here the Turk invaders were rolled back!

Within Gujarat, the Kingdom of Kutch carried on "mercantile activity", but never fell to the Islamists:
The capital, Bhuj, contains only 20,000 souls. Lakhpat Bandar, Anjar, and perhaps Mundra, may have 10,000 inhabitants each. The other towns are generally much smaller. The seaport of Mandvi alone bears the marks of industry and prosperity. It carries on a considerable trade, especially with Arabia and the coast of Africa, and contains from 30,000 to 40,000 inhabitants. The whole revenue of this territory is under 50 lakhs of koris (about 16 lakhs of rupees) of which 30 lakhs of koris belong to the Rao; the country which yields the remaining 20 lakhs being assigned to the collateral branches of his Highness's family, each of whom received a certain appanage on the death of the Rao from whom it is immediately descended.

This tribe is called Jadeja; it is a branch of the Rajputs. The other inhabitants of Cutch are computed by the natives at 500,000 souls, of which more than one-third are Mohammedans (mostly converts from the religion of the Brahmans), and the rest Hindus, chiefly of the peaceful castes : the Jadejas are all soldiers, and the Mussalmans supply the rest of the military class. The Rao can call on the Jadejas to serve him in war, but must furnish them with pay at a fixed rate while they are with his army. Each chief has a similar body of kinsmen, who possess shares of the original appanage of the family, and stand in the same relation of nominal dependence to him that he bears to the Rao. These kinsmen form what is called the Bhayad or brotherhood of the chiefs, and the chiefs themselves compose the Bhayad of the Rao.

His troops consist of about 500 horse and 2,000 infantry, besides the contingent of the Jadejas. It is calculated that these chiefs could furnish 20,000 men; but, admitting this to be the case, they can only be reckoned as a force of which the Rao can have the services whenever he is willing to pay for them. The number of this body that is really efficient probably does not exceed 4,000 or 5,000. The character of the common people appears to be peaceable and inoffensive. The inhabitants of Vagad
are said to retain their propensity to plunder, the Mohammedan herdsmen in the Banni (a tract of grasslands extending along the edge of the northern Ran) are reckoned fierce and unsettled ; and the Mianas (another Mohammedan tribe in the east of the Rao's territories) are notorious for their desperate character, always ready for hire to undertake any enterprise, however dangerous, or however flagitious. These tribes are under hereditary heads of their own.

The external relations of Cutch scarcely deserve to be mentioned. It has escaped the ravages and exactions of the Mahrattas, and it has twice repelled invasions from Sindh.
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Airavat »

The difference between Kutch and the rest of Gujarat, and also Kerala, is that they did not allow foreigners to settle down in large numbers....the converts, whether traders, farmers or herdsmen, shared an interdependent relationship with the Rajput rulers and thus did not rebel against them. Foreign settlers would not have had such an interdependent relationship. Kerala allowed Arabs to an unmanageable number in and the results are best described by Ibn Batuta:
The idolaters of Malabar do not allow Muslims to enter their houses or eat from their vessels. If a Muslim should do the contrary, they break the vessel or give it to the Muhammadan. When a Muhammadan goes to a place where there is no house belonging to one of his class, the infidels cook the food and serve it to him on banana leaves ; dogs and birds eat what is left over. In all the places on the road through Malabar, there are Muslim houses where their co-religionists can alight and buy all their requirements. But for these, no Mussulman could travel in this country.

The Sultan of Manjarur is one of the principal rulers of this country. His name is Ram-dav (Rama-deva). There are in Manjarur about 4000 Mussulmans who live in a suburb. Conflicts occur often between them and the inhabitants of the city, and the Sultan reconciles them as he has need of the merchants.

Then we sailed to Fandazini, a large and beautiful town with gardens and bazaars. Here the Mussulmans occupy three quarters, each having a mosque. The Qazi and preacher of Fandazini is a man from Aman and he has a good brother. The ships from China pass the winter here.

The Qazi of Kulam is a distinguished man from Qazwin; the head of all the Muslims in this town is Muhammad Shah Bandar, the chief of the port, who has an excellent and generous brother, Taqi-ud-din, The principal mosque there is admirable; it was built by the merchant KHwaja Muhazzab. Kulam is, of all the towns of Malabar, the nearest to China, and most of the Chinese
merchants come there. Mussulmans are honoured and respected there. The Sultan of Kulam is an idolater.
devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by devesh »

Cutch is a tiny part of India. it never was able to bring a "broader" revival to the region. the Gujarat+Delhi axis was firmly under Islamic control, with small exceptions like Cutch which were limited in area and could not "spread" outward with their ideology.

as for the importance of "proximity" of Gujarat trading networks to Maharashtra, why was Shivaji so particular about winning (if not, then crushing) the Gujarat traders who were under Mughal control? Mughals' decline began when they could no longer protect and give safe harbor to their dependent traders and merchants. Aurangzeb started loosing control from that point itself.

as such, there might have been many small resistances in Rajasthan, but it was limited to sub-regions. even this was only possible b/c of the arid/desert climate. such regions escaped the worst of Islamist "attentions" for long sustained periods b/c the Islamic focus was always to find the "fertile" agricultural lands and plant their networks in those lands.

the Western Ghats and Rajasthan have such geographies. of these, the former was even more excluded from the dominant trading/mercantile networks. in the South, the trading/mercantile centers were located in Southern Karnataka, Kerala, TN, and Coastal AP. by the time Shivaji rose, Bombay was still an infant. before the trading networks could become entrenched in Bombay, Marathas had already risen.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Airavat ji,
I will try to fish out a ref I remember about a slavery-jurisdiction case about a "Kutchchee" citizen being recorded in a report in the Brit annals of Zanzibar. The ruler of "Kutch" mentioned who apparently sought protection for the slaver - appears to have had a Muslim appellation. I could be wrong. I will check.
Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Airavat »

Devesh, with all the politeness that I can muster, your understanding of history is pretty haywired. Apologies for venturing into this thread.
devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by devesh »

sorry you feel that way, but I've tried to present it to you the best I can. rest is for you to believe. my main points were geographic features which are attractive to Islamics ended up getting entrenched with their networks. and that "distance" or "isolation" from such networks was essential for groups like Marathas to stage a revival.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12686
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Pratyush »

Continuing on the subject of Mamta.

Oil prices: UPA misses yet another chance to fix things
Nobody is in any doubt that this cut has been forced by Mamata Banerjee‘s tantrums, and not by any real fall in crude oil prices. But that didn’t stop Minister of State for Petroleum and Natural Gas RPN Singh from claiming that since crude oil prices had come down by $4 a barrel, “we have passed it on to consumers.” He maintained the fiction that “petrol prices are deregulated.”
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12686
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Pratyush »

I am surprised that the Die-nasty has not co-opted this outlet till date. Is it because it does not have any mass following or is it because they need some one to show the masses that India has some independent media.

Dear Rahul: To win in UP, your Hindi has to get better!
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by abhishek_sharma »

That antique land of Awadh

Other issues are being discussed in threads where this should be posted.
Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Agnimitra »

Gujarat's rising star woos China
China's business and political circles last week gave visiting Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi a warm welcome, seeing past his alleged encouragement of 2002 anti-Muslim riots. Beijing sees Modi as a prime contender for India's next premier. Washington too has noted Modi's ascendancy, which could prompt a quiet rethink of his US travel ban.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

^^^Astute move from both sides. NM is projecting "pragmatist" future leader who can do business and growth onlee - over and above so-called narrow parochialism and ultra-nationalism that congrez usually accuses non-congrez criticism of its softly softly attitude towards pak and Pak encouraged Kashmir valley Islamism. The Chinese communist party on the other hand can use NM to both project their pretended softly/softly approach - and biz+economic onlee image on one side - and put pressure on congrez which is playing at showing a more militant face towards the Tibetan plateau.

But as in the lead up to the Partition - each player in the game is pretending a public face they do not really intend to follow through, but each such public posturing may rule out alternatives to force them into corners from which they cannot back out.
devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by devesh »

brihaspati wrote:
But as in the lead up to the Partition - each player in the game is pretending a public face they do not really intend to follow through, but each such public posturing may rule out alternatives to force them into corners from which they cannot back out.

are you saying the posturing by PRC and US will "help" INC in eliminating alternatives to INC?
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by RamaY »

naaa.. it might end in a situation that INC will sound more nationalistic than NM when it comes to PRC.

Not a bad idea if n-INC acts decisively against TSP where INC acts decisively against INC. Would be a holy grail.

Of course we need to worry about Internal Cancers though...
Klaus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2168
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 12:28
Location: Cicero Avenue

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Klaus »

Bji, we would like to hear your thoughts on Dr Bharat Karnad's recent speech, the audio and transcripts of which have been posted in multiple threads.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Klaus wrote:Bji, we would like to hear your thoughts on Dr Bharat Karnad's recent speech, the audio and transcripts of which have been posted in multiple threads.
Klaus ji, another dear friend has also asked about this. I was absorbed in the Partition model.

I do not have the original transcript, but I am using the summaries of PratikDas. I will not comment on his military tech comments right now - which to say the least is "radioactive".

Briefly : I would summarize his positions strategically as :
(1) China is a greater threat than Pakistan. Do everything possible to keep Pak neutral while you deal with the China threat.
(2) Pak is not permanently toxic as a separate entity. It is possible to detoxify Pak at least to the extent that it loses its India-specific hatred. Further Pak can be used as a buffer to absorb Islamic shocks from further to the west.

This line of perception is not new. But we need to understand why this perspective, where from, and why now. I feel that it is a long term perception in the congrez core from before the Partition - where, the preservation of a strong centre based in the northern plains - especially around the beginning of the GV, is the first priority. That strong centre would preserve a basis of personal and associated network dominance over the primary demographic and economic strength and flows over most of India.

In this, the perception continues that in areas like Punjab and Bengal are troublesome and unruly regions best kept out of the "centre". Muslims cannot be trusted where they happen to be the majority, and should not be kept close to or inside the centre. At the same time an independent cultural identity based on the non-Muslim sectors of Sikh and Hindus gives away too much power to networks far from the centre - since these identities are spread around all over the country and distant subregions. Hence a small minority Muslim inside serves as an effective balancing tool to be encouraged to keep the basis of personal power strong as a claim of a mediator.

The utility of a "managed" Muslim population is too ingrained into this type of thinking. This leads to visualizing a Paki population with emasculated military - a good utility option. To be preserved outside and far from the comfort zone of the "centre", while serving as a useful check to other sources of threat. The military aspect of Islam is feared - but the hoped for herd-behaviour and retrogressive tendencies of the social theological organization is seen as useful. For the congrez mentality - Paki muslim populations should never be allowed to come into the "central fold", where they may threaten the base for personal power - both directly as well as mobilizing counter-Islamic reaction - making the mediator role irrelevant.

Focusing attention on China in a public way is a good way out - especially if no real war is intended. Nothing concrete will be said or even done in preparation for Tibet because, congrez never intended to do anything seriously about it. It always used the Tibetans as a kind of hostage for good Chinese behaviour - not always with success.

The main thrust of this thinking is about preserving and defending the base of personal power in the north-central plains between Punjab and Bihar. The periphery is all "troublesome" and needs to be kept on an uncertain animated suspension mode.

At the moment this public focus is to take away attention from the western borders - where the pre-Partition hesitation still holds, and is reflected in the hesitant explorations about KV. Because KV is predominantly Muslim and the rest of the region predominantly non-Muslim - congrez is secretly in a state of permanent vacillation and indecision. Just as it was about Punjab and Bengal. For very similar reasons about the lack of clarity and deeply hidden anxiety/distrust of the Muslim. Moreover they know that now is a good time to make this a public issue - to score many points at the same time. A kind of diplomatic overture to the west that India would be aligned to western interests vis-a-vis China and hence flexing muscle, to take the edge off criticism about the apparent weakness towards Paki Islamism, and finally to hang the threat of "nationalist sentiments" against domestic opposition.

What BK is doing perhaps unknowingly, is playing into this gameplan. He is in such a position that he can be "over-convinced" - too much of intel inputs can be carefully arranged to sway thinkings of experts in certain directions.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by svinayak »

Carl wrote:Gujarat's rising star woos China
China's business and political circles last week gave visiting Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi a warm welcome, seeing past his alleged encouragement of 2002 anti-Muslim riots. Beijing sees Modi as a prime contender for India's next premier. Washington too has noted Modi's ascendancy, which could prompt a quiet rethink of his US travel ban.
Why bring in US in a report of China. Unless there is a secret coordination of China with US on India this kind of report will not be done at all. But the future leadership of India is being courted by China and they are trying to see the cue from US is another pointer,
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60240
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by ramana »

Bji, Quite an interesting take. Yes BK has long ties to old line INC. Not the new one after 1996 which is a 2G cabal.
Klaus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2168
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 12:28
Location: Cicero Avenue

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Klaus »

brihaspati wrote: What BK is doing perhaps unknowingly, is playing into this gameplan. He is in such a position that he can be "over-convinced" - too much of intel inputs can be carefully arranged to sway thinkings of experts in certain directions.
Thanks Bji. One of his other motivations could be to bring about limited convergence of views between jingo and WKK audiences, which is perhaps the reason why the points of discussion are being carefully picked and chosen.

The speech gave an impression that all is not what it seems to be and that there is a larger than life, unseen fourth lion of Sarnath out there.
devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by devesh »

^^^
The "Deep State"?
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by abhishek_sharma »

We need similar lists for Indian books.
Bharath.Subramanyam
BRFite
Posts: 132
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 00:17

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Bharath.Subramanyam »

brihaspati wrote:...Muslims cannot be trusted where they happen to be the majority, and should not be kept close to or inside the centre. At the same time an independent cultural identity based on the non-Muslim sectors of Sikh and Hindus gives away too much power to networks far from the centre - since these identities are spread around all over the country and distant subregions. Hence a small minority Muslim inside serves as an effective balancing tool to be encouraged to keep the basis of personal power strong as a claim of a mediator.

The utility of a "managed" Muslim population is too ingrained into this type of thinking....
I have seen this 'behavior' in many INC circles. During my childhood days, our family used to visit a nearby small town/village area. We have a distant related family, which is land owning & in INC politics for many years (two generations). Since the family was related to INC MP, head of the family used to run something called 'Secular India Forum' in a small town. Basically this 'forum' used to organise meetings in 90's so that the INC MP can show himself to be a 'great secular'. The meetings were to abuse 'hindutva groups', 'hindu nationalism etc'. But this relative (land owning man) is very anti-muslim in this private life. I found many people like this later in those circles.
ramana wrote:Bji, Quite an interesting take. Yes BK has long ties to old line INC. Not the new one after 1996 which is a 2G cabal.
I would categorize one former RAW man from Chennai who has a habit of quoting BRF without acknowledging, into this category.

Also long back I remember Dr. Bharat Karnard writing (many years ago) that Indian Muslims will stop/prevent Indian Army from punishing Pakistan for its acts.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60240
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by ramana »

Bji, Something for you!!!! Looks like Queendom has the deepest knowledge of the networks.

Nile Green, "Bombay Islam: The Religious Economy of the West Indian Ocean, 1840-1915"
C U P| 2011-03-21 | ISBN: 0521769248 | 344 pages |

As a thriving port city, nineteenth-century Bombay attracted migrants from across India and beyond. Nile Green's Bombay Islam traces the ties between industrialization, imperialism, and the production of religion to show how Muslim migration from the oceanic and continental hinterlands of Bombay in this period fueled demand for a wide range of religious suppliers, as Christian missionaries competed with Muslim religious entrepreneurs for a stake in the new market. Enabled by a colonial policy of non-intervention in religious affairs, and powered by steam travel and vernacular printing, Bombay's Islamic productions were exported as far as South Africa and Iran. Connecting histories of religion, labour, and globalization, the book examines the role of ordinary people - mill hands and merchants - in shaping the demand that drove the market. By drawing on hagiographies, travelogues, doctrinal works, and poems in Persian, Urdu, and Arabic, Bombay Islam unravels a vernacular modernity that saw people from across the Indian Ocean drawn into Bombay's industrial economy of enchantment.
No wonder BT has a tough time in Mumbai.
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Bharath.Subramanyam wrote: Also long back I remember Dr. Bharat Karnard writing (many years ago) that Indian Muslims will stop/prevent Indian Army from punishing Pakistan for its acts.
IIRC, it is mentioned in his book "India's nuclear policy". I think he wrote that Indian Muslims will allow India to punish Pakistan, but will not allow its complete destruction.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Did BK ji provide any analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of key forces within Paki society [not just the PA] while he was presenting his rationale for unstinted support/gestures/reassurances towards the regime and its military?
Post Reply