India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

[SaiK]

it could be the experience of the pilot that makes the difference. give a rafale to a paki, and let him take on a desh pilot on an advanced bison. one could get similar scores.

[saptarishi]

here is eurofighter,,it is for you guys to decide which is more agile eurofighter or rafale

[member_20317]

^BRF members above

If supermaneuverability/post stall maneuverability is the deciding factor, which I know is not, then dont hold your breath.

I was in Gwalior during ID-2006 and saw MKI doing Pugachev's cobra over populated territory (over Adityapuram right outside D.D. Nagar Crossing) at air show ceilings.

Now this pilot may have imagined himself a Maverick but then again it could have been standard operating procedure.

The dumbos in bhind moraina could be trusted not to look above their head, but I guess IAF never thought I could have been there. (to be honest those were bad job days, but great times).

[suryag]

Folks one doubt i had was why doesnt anyone do a reverse cobra i.e., the airfraft instead of having its nose up and falling behind can it put its nose down and fall behind. Also when the do reverse inverted flying can an aircraft go up at high AoA without first coming out of the inverted position

[Philip]

[googlevideo]If the Rafale victories in dogfighting with the EF are true,and one hopes that our chaps of the IAF have also come to similar conclusions,this most important factor as I've many a time mentioned and pointed out in some detail in the JSF thread (the reports/studies of the JSF in comparison with other contemporary 4 to 4++ aircraft),that when BVR missiles have been expended and have failed due to countermeasures (and there are some analysts who are contemptuous of supposed BVR "superiority"),the nitty-gritty comes down in the end to the old art of for thje sake off argument dogfighting that has remained constant since the epic spats between Camels and Fokkers in the era of the Red Baron.

Given for the sake of argument that the Rafale is the better dogfighter of the two,the other parameters also belonging to the famous "600" whatever that the IAF has conjured up to decide which bird suits its requirements best,will also come into play.These like radar capability,range,endurance,payload,the weaponry that come with the two,life-cycle costs and the eventual rounded off final "cost" of acquiring the same will make up for any inferiority in WVR combat. The technology that both come with must also have some evaluation parameters and the type of offsets offered will also make a difference."French fries" vs "bangers and mash, mit saukerkraut" !In the ultimate analysis,the wider "net" of the EF, technology wise,when compared with the solo French offer,will be weighed in the balance,with the scales tipping the balance in favour of the EF,but only if the EF costs match that of the Rafale which the French must be X amount lower than the EF to win,which they should've offered, given the exorbitant upgrade costs for the M-2000s. almost twice the cost of the same number of brand new MIG-29Ks for the IN.

Given the long experience of operating French aircraft with the Ouragan/Mystere and Mirage-2000s,plus also being awarded the M-2000 upgrades at handsome costs,,this contest is one where the French have been dealt the better cards,but how they play them is another matter![/googlevideo]

[SaiK]

@80M per Rf, one could buy 25 of them for $2b [roughly the upgrade cost for M2K].

So, is 25 Rafale < 50+ M2K upgrades ?

what is the feel ratio here, by feature and usability?

I would think 25 Rf is better than 50 M2Ks. If Rf is chosen, then we must cancel the M2K upgrade deal, that can be done in house.

[Cosmo_R]

Just a thought here about which is better Rafale or Typhoon. The point is moot now. The successful bidder will be selected on the basis of the lowest overall price. Knife fighting/BVR/Pugachev cobras etc. are water under the bridge. Presumably these requirements were met in the down select using some 600 parameters.

Now it's a matter of money and lifetime costs, offsets and the like.

[arthuro]

About the 9-1 result in favor of the rafale I would say that the ROE were pretty fair and the altitude was quite fair for both as it was neither low altitude nor high altitude. I guess the altitude was chosen where both should be theoretically equal.

at 18000 feet the air is already quite thin...Nothing like at sea level. If the result was so much in favor of the rafale at that given altitude I bet it could also hold its own at even fairly higher altitudes.

Another point : Typhoon pilots are pure air to air specialists (especially when this encounter occurred when rafale pilots have to train for a much wider variety of tasks). So here the credit is for the aircraft rather than the pilots.

another picture of the event that occured in Solenzara, Corsica:

[Cain Marko]

In a dogfight with low weapon load, I'd almost always take a Rafale over the Tiffy for the foll reasons:

1) TWR is almost the same - the EF's one clear advantage will be reduced considerably
2) Nose pointing and slow-low, the Rafale with its lifting body design probly will turn better
3) The Rafale is small enough that the EF pilots find it challenging (unlike the MKI in ID, even though it should have the upper hand at low speeds, its huge size makes for early detection, which possibly explains why the RAF chief said they were equal at low alt).

The Corsica results therefore should be pretty reliable, IOWs, 9/10 times within those parameters, the Rafale would top the EF. I am surprised though that the EF could not do more at 20K feet. However, BVR, the situation COULD change in favor of the EF. Anyways, it seems the ATLC meet in the UAE too favored the Rafale rather lopsided too, and this included BVR iirc - go figure (perhaps the Spectra is magic )

CM.

[Viv S]

In a dogfight with low weapon load, I'd almost always take a Rafale over the Tiffy for the foll reasons:

1) TWR is almost the same - the EF's one clear advantage will be reduced considerably

Depends on the altitude. It'll be the other way round at 40,000 feet. At 60,000 feet, the Eurofighter will be only game in town.

2) Nose pointing and slow-low, the Rafale with its lifting body design probly will turn better

True. But only at low altitudes and low air speeds.

3) The Rafale is small enough that the EF pilots find it challenging (unlike the MKI in ID, even though it had the upper hand at low speeds, its huge size makes for early detection, which explains why the RAF chief said they were equal at low alt).

Huh? The difference in wing span and height is less than a foot and the difference in length is a mere two feet. Take a look at Arthuro's picture - they're both practically the same size.

The Corsica results therefore should be pretty reliable, IOWs, 9/10 times within those parameters, the Rafale would top the EF. I am surprised though that the EF could not do more at 20K feet.

Again, as a one-off yes. But, I wouldn't bet on the Rafale on more level playing field. Also, most of those scores were racked up after multiple unsuccessful passes. The simple addition of the HMSS on the EF (and at some point in the future on the Rafale) will change all that. Heck, it allowed the Jaguar (of all aircraft!) to notch up a 'kill' against the Rafale in the past (AFM, 2007). Also, the ASRAAM and IRIS-T have a 90 deg off-boresight lock-on capability unlike the MICA which is restricted to about 60 deg.

However, BVR, the situation COULD change in favor of the EF. Anyways, it seems the ATLC meet in the UAE too favored the Rafale rather lopsided too, and this included BVR iirc - go figure (perhaps the Spectra is magic )

Well... the Eurofighter will have a considerably more powerful radar in the Captor-E, a greater field-of-view, an arguably longer ranged Meteor (greater kinematic energy and/or altitude at launch). Which brings us to the SPECTRA, Arthuro believes that ESM systems like it (and possibly even the DASS) can or will be able to decrypt and track/jam AESA emissions. I disagree (vehemently!). And it still doesn't address the issue of detecting non-transmitting aircraft datalinked to an active radar platform that may in fact be within missile range. DACT exercises aren't quite as real world as one would like, so we'll have to wait and see.

[Kakkaji]

Seems to me if the EF is chosen, then the MKI will become the strike bird for the IAF, at least until the EF's a2g capabilities are fully developed. Is that a desirable scenario?

[suryag]

Finally i went through the list of aerobatic maneuvers and found out what i wanted. Folks any videos of Rafale/tiffy doing the split S without the half roll at the beginning and an immelman with half roll at the start

[Viv S]

About the 9-1 result in favor of the rafale I would say that the ROE were pretty fair and the altitude was quite fair for both as it was neither low altitude nor high altitude. I guess the altitude was chosen where both should be theoretically equal.

at 18000 feet the air is already quite thin...Nothing like at sea level.

The flight ceiling for the Rafale is three times that height (the EF even more so). The IAF has airbases at upto 13,500 feet (and ALGs at upt 16,000ft). Heck even passenger jet aircraft cruise at upto 37,000 feet.

If the result was so much in favor of the rafale at that given altitude I bet it could also hold its own at even fairly higher altitudes.

Again lets not make it template result for all future DACT exercises. Exercises may or may not go well as well at higher altitudes.

[Taygibay]

Also, the ASRAAM and IRIS-T have a 90 deg off-boresight lock-on capability unlike the MICA which is restricted to about 60 deg.

N'importe quoi!

"'Over-the-shoulder' Mica pushes limits
ROBERT HEWSON Editor Jane Air-Launched Weapons
London

A French Air Force Dassault Rafale F2 has conducted an operational test firing of MBDA's Mica air-to-air missile, demonstrating an ability to engage airborne targets in a mode that may be unprecedented.

The missile was fired in an 'over-the-shoulder' manoeuvre to hit a target at beyond visual range, using targeting information datalinked to the launch aircraft by a second Rafale.

This combination of a thrust-vectored, active-radar missile, fired successfully at a rear hemisphere target by a datalinked 'blind' aircraft, is almost certainly the first such test to merge so many specific elements.

This Mica test was the 11th in a 12-shot series of Evaluation Technico-Opérationnelle/Operational Technical Test (ETO) firings conducted by the French Air Force as part of its tactics development work for the Rafale F2. The 12th and final test took place on 29 June, but no further details of the trials have been released. ETO 11 was the most complex of the ETO firings up to that point and the first time that the Mica/Rafale combination had been tested to such extremes.

The test involved two Rafale F2s operated by the Centre d'Experiences Aeriennes Militaires (CEAM): the French Air Force test centre. A C 22 target drone was positioned at a distance behind a Mica-armed Rafale (Rafale 1), acting as a surrogate threat aircraft. Rafale 1 had no radar contact with the drone. A second Rafale (Raffle 2) was manoeuvring in co-ordination with Rafale 1 which was at its two o'clock, maintaining situational awareness with a combination of its RBE2 radar and Link 16 datalink.

Operating some tens of kilometres from Rafale 1, Rafale 2 detected and tracked the C 22 with its radar and datalinked the target's position to Rafale 1. Rafale 1 then used that data to align the inertial navigation system on one of its active-radar Mica EM missiles and launched the weapon. Neither Rafale 1 nor its missile had a lock on the C 22 target before launch. The Mica used its thrust-vectored motor to perform a 180 degree over-the-shoulder turn and fly out directly behind Rafale 1. The Mica then entered the defined target area 'box' and began searching for the C 22 with its own seeker. The drone, carrying simulated missiles, was engaged and destroyed at a range "considerably greater than any short-range missile such as the [Rafael] Python 4 or [Vympel] R-73 that could have threatened Rafale 1", according to MBDA.

The Mica EM and Mica IR variants are already qualified on the Mirage 2000-5 and Rafale. This latest ETO test programme was to prove expanded engagement modes for the Rafale F2, with both Mica types, in French Air Force service. That work is now complete. The Rafale F2 has been declared fully operational at EC 1/7 'Provence' based at Saint-Dizier, where the aircraft maintain a quick reaction alert. Weapons development work is now shifting to the next F3 standard for Rafale capability.

http://www.janes.com

and original :

http://www.cesa.air.defense.gouv.fr/art ... rticle=309



Good night all, Tay.

[SaiK]

Is that the camera angle that made Rf's AoA float/flip awesome?

[shiv]

here is eurofighter,,it is for you guys to decide which is more agile eurofighter or rafale

I think he EF is every bit as agile - except that in these display the pilot does his rolls slower and does not restrict himself to a tight area like the Rafale. He does do a couple of things that the Rafale show posted earlier did not have - but I don't think minor details are really important.

I don't believe there is much to choose from between the two and the clincher will be other things like offsets etc.

[SaiK]

It would be interesting if Ef is chosen, particularly in the core engine area, where our expertise could develop further. We would have the following know hows (at least to some details more than screw drivers):

- RD 33 mk
- AL 31 fp
- AL 55
- GE 414
- Rolls Royce
- EJ200 (booster)
- Kaveri + Snecma.
--

Now, after all these exposures, we can not say, we have zero experience with engines.

[Cain Marko]

In response to Viv, lost my whole damn post!

Viv, regarding the MKI comparison - my point was that the EF might have been equal to the MKI at low altitude (ref. RAF ACM) possibly because the MKI is much bigger vis a vis the Rafale. IOWs, the possibility exists that the lopsided Corsica results might have been because the rafale suffers from no such disadvantage. It is v.well known that in terms of slowspeed handling, the MKI is top notch, that the EF could equal it (as per Austin's reference to RAF chief's comment), might have been due to its huge visual sig. IIRC, an F-16 jockey had noted this during a Cope India. Just a theory, there might have been other factors as well.

As far as the much touted TWR advantage of the EF, there is v.little between the two birds when lightly loaded. For instance:
@ 50% fuel + guns only, EF has a TWR of about 1.3; Rafale is around 1.23
@ 50% fuel + 6 Aim-120, EF ~ 1.25; Rafale (6 Mica) ~ 1.2
@ 100% fuel + 6 AAM, EF ~ 1.07; Rafale ~ 1.03

Obviously having 3 tons extra thrust has its advantages: As payload weight increases, the EF will have more thrust, e.g.
@ 100% fuel + 2000kg, EF ~ 1.00; Rafale is well below 1.00.
Where altitude is v.high, and short takeoffs are desired, again EF's advantage will be more pronounced.

Re. the Corsica/ATLC exercises, I would not dismiss lightly them based on assumed unfair ROE (ala Cope India '04) for the foll reasons:

1) The results are too damned lopsided - a one off kill, as was the case of the Jag vs. Rafale or shornet vs. Raptor, is one thing - more of a rare exception; but when you have consistent results in a given scenario, it shows a clear advantage, at least in that regime imho. Not to say that the EF might not enjoy similar advantages in different envelopes but there is little to go by other than DERA type studies. Btw, there is v.little in the Corsica Ex. which shows that the ROE were against the EF. Sure, low-slow might be Rafale's speciality, but is the EF that bad in this envelope?

2) There have been actual members of the Adla making v. specific public comments that reflect these scores - not a small thing. If proved wrong, it would be pie in the face for a v.professional AF, and would make the Adla look like the Pak Navy. If you recall, even the Fornoff comments, which were not from an actual serving crew member, were cause for great aggravation, and an apology/reprimand was tendered. There has been nothing from any side to dispute the French claims - rather glaring this absence considering what it means to PR.

As far as BVR goes, the Tiffy should hold the cards.

[kmkraoind]

IMO, the advantages of going both with Rafale and EF in 70:30 or 60:40 ratio would be immense. LCA MK2 production line would be operational around 2015-2017 timeline. The advantages would be:
1. Buy more EF airframes than we can build -> use same production line for LCA MK2.
2. Build more Rafale than we can get off the shelf -> use same production line for AMCA, once all the required Rafales were built.
3. For heavy birds, once all SU-30 MK1 are built as originally envisaged -> use same production line for PAK-FA.

[shukla]

Keep the flag flying
Hindustan Times

The MRCA is now a choice between two aircraft — the French Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon — in a deal that could be much higher than the original figure of R42,000 crores. A strict comparison between the two is not realistic. The Rafale weighs 10,000 kg empty and has a maximum weight of 24,500 kg with a combat radius of 1,800 km. The Eurofighter weighs 11,000 kg empty, maximum weight of 23,500 kg with a combat radius of 1,400 km. Moreover, the latter has super cruise capability that allows it to fly at speeds greater than Mach 1 for longer periods. Other aircrafts can only attain this in short bursts during a dog fight or while evading missiles. But since Rafale is wholly French, technology transfer will be easier and the IAF, which has the Mirage on its inventory, presumably feels more comfortable with this kind of aircraft. The multi-nation Eurofighter does not have these advantages, as it is manufactured jointly by countries some of whom have strong embargo laws. One way or the other, a decision on the MRCA is expected to be taken shortly.

[dinesha]

May be some last minute sweetener from Dassault.. they must be very desperate now..

Mideast Setback for Rafale, Dassault
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =FEA&s=CVS

"Thanks to President [Nicolas] Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal," Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed said Nov. 16, the official news agency WAM reported. "Regrettably, Dassault [seems] unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms." Dassault had been "at the forefront of our considerations," he said.

[koti]

IMO, the advantages of going both with Rafale and EF in 70:30 or 60:40 ratio would be immense. LCA MK2 production line would be operational around 2015-2017 timeline. The advantages would be:
1. Buy more EF airframes than we can build -> use same production line for LCA MK2.
2. Build more Rafale than we can get off the shelf -> use same production line for AMCA, once all the required Rafales were built.
3. For heavy birds, once all SU-30 MK1 are built as originally envisaged -> use same production line for PAK-FA.

Is that possible?
I am missing something here.

TIA.

[Philip]

What the IAF and IN also sorely need are LR strategic bombers,able to fly to Beijing,launch a stand-off N-tipped missile and return for another mission and the IN's able to fly into the Ino-CHina Sea and knock out a PLAN carrier tsk force,also able to hit Sanya island.The two MMRCAs cannot perform either task and even the Flankers require refuelling.The MMRCA's prime role will be to deter the PLAAF and PAF in the Himalayan theatre.I suggest that we buy the 120+ budgeted for,but no more unil the true capability ans cost-effectiveness has proven itself,build more LCA MK-2s,upgraded Jaguars,to make up numbers,and for qualty the FGFAs will deliver,and use the balance funds for acquiring a true strategic bomber,perhaps the SU-34 in the interim and Backfires of which Russia has them mothballed in the dozens,which do need deep upgrading though.This excerpt,from the Intl.Mil. thread shows how serious the PRC threat is and what the uS plans are,using Oz as a nuclear base.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/op ... 64141.aspx

It is the port of Darwin that she (HIllary) covets. Basing B-52s in Darwin has the capacity to upset the Chinese. The B-52 has a range of around 15,000km, enough for them to threaten southern and eastern Chinese naval bases, including the submarine pens at Sanya. Will these planes carry nuclear weapons? Will nuclear weapons be stored in Australia? And will the US lobby the NT and federal governments to ''enhance'' its presence?

[kmkraoind]

IMO, SU-30 MKIzation is a master piece work by IAF and the designers. The sensor and avionic integration with Israel and French subsystems is awesome. Even the EF is struggling to come with a true multi role despite having technological and manufacturing lead. The original SU-30 from Russia was pure air dominance. With Indian dreams and brains it turned into a multirole one. That means planners of IAF have a good understanding of world wide avionic and sensor development and utilized them to their maximum limit. May be India is good prototyping of LCA and MCA, but to make a big and production and assembly line, it really needs a help/consultation. For air dominance roles, we have MKI and in future (2017-2018), we may able to get PAK-FA, which is much more potent in raw performance than now&then EF. Apart from MKI there a good dearth of ground attack aircraft. The Jaguar may be good for Pak, but to counter Chinese SAM bubbles, we need much potent than Jaguar and MKI. Here comes Rafale and they have provided good sub systems for MKI, so they are okay if we heavily MKIze Rafale.

At present to churn out LCA-I, II and III blocks, future AMCA, and PAK-FA we need to maintain at least 3 different production lines for a decent quantity. Here comes EF consortium and Dassult and we need to maximize this opportunity, and both have their own advantages. Even the political and economic situation is at India's advantage. With MRCA acquisition, open two assembly lines with production rate of 16-24 per annum, and churn out birds after 2015-2018 period that rivals car production line.

[Singha]

the same missiles that B52 from australia can launch from australia can also be launched from ships and submarines near indonesia. more than a airbase, I think US might seek a good naval base in northern australia or new guinea (with australia being preferred for logistical ease). this will supplement places like guam and okinawa in creating a arc of strong submarine & ship bases around the PRC.

we all know due to shallow depth, deterrent SSBN patrols are ill suited to south china sea, it has to be mid pacific or southern indian ocean.

mid pacific is swarming with USN assets even on a bad day, but southern IOR - a gigantic region hardly has a US base on its perphery - diego garcia is not a major naval station, bahrain is far far to the north, southern half of africa has no USN base...

when the Chinese get over their JL2 and Jin sub problems they will start proper deterrent patrols....probably in southern IOR and places like Darwin, Perth are ideal locations as SSN bases with quick turnaround time....wait in the sea south of the indonesian straits and in the timor sea, get advance notice from hidden SOSUS necklaces north of indonesia and near sanya and tail the chinese SSBNs into the abyssal basin of the southern IOR.

on our part , we need to pull ourselves together and develop Madagascar and Mauritius as naval stations with submarine turn around points...apart from nicobar islands as fwd staging base for our hunter-killer SSNs doing the same thing south of indonesia.

wire up the seabed wherever we can.

[shukla]

Eurofighter, Rafle extend dogfight from India to UAE to win commercial tender
Economic Times

Sources here told this writer that informal discussions on selling the Mirage 2000-9s have been held "at the diplomatic level with India" but that there has been no interest from New Delhi. Details were not given.

What happens in the UAE should have no bearing on the Indian MMRCA competition as IAF has already selected only Rafale and Eurofighter, disqualifying four others on the basis of number of points scored in flight and weapon tests. The former IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, who had announced the decision on shortlisting, observed though that "all the competing aircraft (the US F-16 and F-18, the Swedish Gripen and the Russian Mig 35) were good".

The UAE's decision to seek new bids, however, has two implications: That its own selection process has to start afresh, and that the winner in the Indian competition will have to fine-tune its offer in the final negotiations but after the selection.

[vishvak]

Eurofighter, Rafle extend dogfight from India to UAE to win commercial tender
Economic Times

Sources here told this writer that informal discussions on selling the Mirage 2000-9s have been held "at the diplomatic level with India" but that there has been no interest from New Delhi. Details were not given.

What happens in the UAE should have no bearing on the Indian MMRCA competition as IAF has already selected only Rafale and Eurofighter, disqualifying four others on the basis of number of points scored in flight and weapon tests. The former IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, who had announced the decision on shortlisting, observed though that "all the competing aircraft (the US F-16 and F-18, the Swedish Gripen and the Russian Mig 35) were good".

The UAE's decision to seek new bids, however, has two implications: That its own selection process has to start afresh, and that the winner in the Indian competition will have to fine-tune its offer in the final negotiations but after the selection.

Talk about copying behavior. Hopefully UAE will be able to be clearer too on this for their own understanding. But then I can think of scenario where pakis will run to UAE(..), declare their competence & expertise(!) and provide necessary decision making(!!), just like India(!!!). Just an interesting hypothetical scenario worth 2 coins.

[Taygibay]

Weird info, Shukla

I would have seen the exchange of those dashnines to India
instead of the M2000H upgrade which may account for India's
refusal easily*. But as is, it just doesn't cut it.
It also barely fits with the instance on "Dassault's arrogance"
by the nice Sheik ... unless that is, we are to understand that
Dassault was opposed to the re-sale earlier in the process
as a way to protect its upgrade work That fits both news.
It could be from the fact that Dassault which has stopped production
of the Mirage 2000 did not care to take those back itself in corp.
The AdlA was never heard of uttering wish to get them either, BTW
for same reasons and to get Rafales churning out faster instead.
Which would now leave President Sarkozy's team to do the job of placing them.
If so, ( and if true ) weak first attempt by the govt guys and we can
already picture those being offered next at low-low-low price to ...
well anyone really, the U.S.A., Togo, Azerbaïdjan, Monaco, the U.K.
all the way down to Palau by next Christmas.
Wild guess, we can exclude Iran and China.

Wilder guess, Hypothetical Rafale win in MMRCA tadadam ...
then sale to the UAE with the resale to Pakistan so that
in a couple of years, IAF can show its Rafale pilots' artistic capabilities
in a generations battle?


Also seriously agreed that missiles for mainland need not to be AC based.

Good day all, Tay

* Mission system wise, those are mini-Rafales but then age is
a factor here and another type for the IAF, even if related to
M2000-H/TH, would be ridiculous.

[Philip]

Singha,Sanya will require a different type of ordnance,something more spectacular thta cannot be launched from US ships and subs....the "mother of all bombs"-MOAB.This weapon and devlopments of it,can penetrate 200 ft. before exploding,and if the US want to knock out the Sanya sub pens beneath the mountain,then they will need to use this kind of ordnance and only the B-52 and possibly the B-2 can carry it.The Oz uranium double-take on sales of uranium to India must be seen in this new light,of the US wanting bases in Darwin,especially the naval facilities,where US SSGNs and carrier task forces can be stationed or use the facilties just like the good old days of Subic Bay in the Phillipines.If as suspected,N-warheads will be stored in Oz for use against China,and a new push of the Phillipines towards taking ovrdue action against Chinese aggro,then the US is drawing an outer circle to encircle the Chinese encirclement of India,ASEAN and the subcontinent.The Indo-China Sea is going to be one of the busiest waters on the planet,with a host of naval activity both above and below the surface.

If the MMRCA is also based in the ANC,then this will up the ante considerably for strike operations in the Indo-China Sea too,if the aircraft are refuelled and escorted by SU-30MKis.

[SaiK]

aesa panel: 800 t/rs in the front and 300+300 t/rs on the side lobes - is this possible on rafale?

[Singha]

afaik the rbe2-aa will have around 1000 tr cells . no design ongoing for side panels though could be a good add atop the CFT area....360' spherical MAWS mandates 360' radar coverage to me.

while at it, throw in some L-band array too - the fat structures that support the canards seem ideal for that...electrical power permitting..if power is short then skip it, because at short range even the X-band main radar will detect stealth planes.

[SaiK]

After Israel banning sale of 2052 technology, one of these two rbe2 or e-scan could be India's first exposure to AESA radar. What would be interesting is the source code rights to reprogram and program to our configurations.

brahmos and astra would be highly likely candidate for mmrca porting in the future.

[Kovy]

In a dogfight with low weapon load, I'd almost always take a Rafale over the Tiffy for the foll reasons:

1) TWR is almost the same - the EF's one clear advantage will be reduced considerably

Depends on the altitude. It'll be the other way round at 40,000 feet. At 60,000 feet, the Eurofighter will be only game in town.

A dogfight starting at 60kft ? come on.... be serious (or may be you have a credible scenario to explain how it could happen ?)

Even if the dofight starts at 40000ft, both aircrats will loose altitude very fast as they trade it for speed while pulling high G.

And when they hit the deck (no more altitude to trade), slow speed maneuvering at low altitude will make the difference.

The fact that most gunfights between 2 comparable fighteurs/pilots end at low altitude/speed is the reason why the typhoon will always suffer in front of Rafale. Dofighting while staying above 40000ft is merely imposible.

[Kartik]

Eurofighter, Rafle extend dogfight from India to UAE to win commercial tender
Economic Times

Sources here told this writer that informal discussions on selling the Mirage 2000-9s have been held "at the diplomatic level with India" but that there has been no interest from New Delhi. Details were not given.

What happens in the UAE should have no bearing on the Indian MMRCA competition as IAF has already selected only Rafale and Eurofighter, disqualifying four others on the basis of number of points scored in flight and weapon tests. The former IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, who had announced the decision on shortlisting, observed though that "all the competing aircraft (the US F-16 and F-18, the Swedish Gripen and the Russian Mig 35) were good".

The UAE's decision to seek new bids, however, has two implications: That its own selection process has to start afresh, and that the winner in the Indian competition will have to fine-tune its offer in the final negotiations but after the selection.

the article you posted didn't have anything about Mirage-2000-9's being offered to India..

[Nikhil T]

the article you posted didn't have anything about Mirage-2000-9's being offered to India..

Its a 2 page article. Click on "Next" after the text.

[arthuro]

Missile Deal This Week, Mirage Upgrade Starts Next Month
Livefist , Nov 21

As revealed by the IAF chief last week, two Indian Air Force Mirage 2000s will leave for France next month to begin the long-delayed Mirage upgrade programme that India signed with Dassault, Thales and HAL in July this year. The Indian upgrade team has been in France for a while now training and absorbing the upgrade routine. A deal for MICA air-to-air missile, which remained unsigned when the Mirage upgrade deal was concluded, is also expected to be cleared this week.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/11/mi ... grade.html

IMO the fact that the IAF is going with the mirage upgrade and mica missile clearly increases rafale chances in the MMRCA competition.

We have :

-A lower acquisition cost of about 5% according to rumor
-More probably than not a lower operating costs (smaller aircraft, smaller engine, smaller radar and with fixed intake, fixed refueling probe, fixed radar no dedicated airbrake).

-Synergies with the M2000 fleet.
-Strategic possibility to operate the same aircraft as the Indian Navy (Rafale M).

-It is already developed and thus low risk and quickly available.
-The management structure of the program is simpler (one nation, one manufacturer).
-The idea of dealing with a well known supplier of front line jet is probably more psychologically safer and reassuring.

[SaiK]

so, let us say we have WVR engagement between these two euro canards.

assume they are within 15-30km dogfight zone, and not at 50/60k ft but less than 40kft to near zero, or anywhere they can do a dog fight, and bark at each other [UAE airspace is fine ].

Let us assume both Rf and Ef has equal stealth characterisitcs.

let us say Rf fires an AAM, goes into active protection/spectra.
Ef, MAWS detects, uses its cross eye wing jammer, and also deploys the towed decoy.
Locks on Rafale and fires back at Rafale.

They both cancel each other, with disruptive jamming and counter measures.


1. Now, who will run out missiles/stores faster? Rf or Ef?
2. Comparisions Spectra vs. Ef jamming techniques? [one is better than the other?]
3. Anything else superior between these two, that I missed here?

PS: assume equally competitive pilots.

[shukla]

Keeping tab on the political grapevine

Flight of fancy?

With air chief NAK Browne announcing that the winner of the Rs42,000 crore medium multi-role combat aircraft contract will be declared next month, the fight between the two contenders, Eurofighter and Rafale, has got serious. Both are offering sops to attract New Delhi. The Indian defence acquisition policy requires that vendors have to source at least 30% of offsets — products that the supplier agrees to buy from the buyer — from India. The two companies, however, have announced that they will source 50% of offsets from India. But does the Indian private sector, despite all the lobbying, have the infrastructure and technology to supply the offsets? Based on present capacities, the answer is no. So even if the IAF announces the winner next month, it’ll be a while before we get those planes from either Eurofighter or Rafale.

[Cosmo_R]

Keeping tab on the political grapevine

Flight of fancy?

With air chief NAK Browne announcing that the winner of the Rs42,000 crore medium multi-role combat aircraft contract will be declared next month, the fight between the two contenders, Eurofighter and Rafale, has got serious. Both are offering sops to attract New Delhi. The Indian defence acquisition policy requires that vendors have to source at least 30% of offsets — products that the supplier agrees to buy from the buyer — from India. The two companies, however, have announced that they will source 50% of offsets from India. But does the Indian private sector, despite all the lobbying, have the infrastructure and technology to supply the offsets? Based on present capacities, the answer is no. So even if the IAF announces the winner next month, it’ll be a while before we get those planes from either Eurofighter or Rafale.

Misguided. The offsets were always 50% for MMRCA. Brings the rest of the article into question.

[Taygibay]

^^^
Agreed with Cosmo and also, the offsets can be scaling up over time.

I.E. now the birds are 100% foreign ( 18 first ones minimum ).
Then they go to 20%, then 50.
By the end of the production run they reach 65% and
compensate for initial absence.
Plus one can offer offsets from another sector.

Good night all, Tay.