PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

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Bharadwaj
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Bharadwaj » 18 Nov 2011 23:03

I knew I had seen that drawing somewhere before !

Found this on the afm forum archive

http://www.aviaport.ru/news/2009/03/16/168743.html

Its some rendering from 2 years ago (from Vayu?).... HAL pr department needs to update itself.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 18 Nov 2011 23:29

HAL should be careful in presenting drawings to public. that looks so shabby for an advanced engineering firm delivering high tech solutions to our forces out of tax payer money. We have every right to tell them either withdraw such silly pics or update it with the right ones. no pic is better.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby anishns » 18 Nov 2011 23:44

People here would probably disapprove...

But, HAL has this habit of talking a lot and delivering little...
I had a few friends doing some outsourced IT work for some folks within HAL Nashik and the stories they would tell me about how things worked there were pretty amazing...

SaiK wrote:HAL should be careful in presenting drawings to public. that looks so shabby for an advanced engineering firm delivering high tech solutions to our forces out of tax payer money. We have every right to tell them either withdraw such silly pics or update it with the right ones. no pic is better.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 19 Nov 2011 00:24

pro look matters. it is all about tfta desires, and sdre usefulness for the future. else they will perish.

drdo labs are now advancing at stellar rates.. and here we have a public sector, who does not want to show the right colors.

it is okay to talk about, be proud about and delivering nothing.
it is not okay to talk and show incompetency. it will hurt them big time.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby VinayG » 19 Nov 2011 01:51

the above picture looks like flanker on steroids or rambha with new wings . Wasn't the FGFA supposed to look tactical and a new design rather than a modified copy of current MKI :idea:

below picture is from trishul web sit

Image

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 19 Nov 2011 02:21

if fgfa is same as pak-fa, why need fgfa? some thing fishy.

so these are things that khans watch, and push for the share.. and we have many supporters to push for the 5th gen deal with raytheon/JSF. and many babooze can be easily bought.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby VinayG » 19 Nov 2011 03:18

JimmyJ wrote:IDRW: IAF sticks with Pak-Fa ,lowers FGFA numbers

Any other source available?


http://www.india-defence.com/reports-5113

Air Force Updates: 214 Fifth Generation Fighters, HAL Tejas Delayed, MRCA Deliveries by 2014 and more..

2011-10-03 In a press conference in New Delhi, the Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne revealed the following:

Indian Air Force has the funds for the MMRCA programme. There will be a realignment in committed liabilities and MMRCA deliveries should begin around by 2014.
Final operational clearance for HAL LCA Tejas has been delayed by one year.
Indian Air Force plans to induct the FGFA / PAK-FA as 166 single-seaters and 48 twin-seaters.
The Kargil runway to operate all aircraft types, including all fighters and strategic lift aircraft. The Kargil airfield will be made fully operational for Lockheed Martin C-130J, Boeing C-17s and Ilyushin Il-76s.
Indian Air Force will maintain 34 fighter squadrons. Squadron No. 17 will be phased out.
First four Mil Mi-17-V5s delivered last week. More deliveries expected in the coming days. By March 2012, the Indian Air Force will have 25 units and they will be based at Suratgarh.
Six additional Lockheed Martin C-130J Hercules ordered. These will be based in the eastern theatre.


IAF to induct 214 fifth generation fighter jets

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/iaf-to-induc ... 940-3.html

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will induct a total of 214 single and twin-seater variants of the advanced Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being developed jointly by India and Russia. The fighters are likely to be inducted by 2017.

"We are looking for 166 single seater and 48 twin-seater versions of the aircraft," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne said in New Delhi.

He was asked to comment on the project which will be reviewed by India and Russia during Defence Minister AK Antony's meeting with his Russian counterpart AE Sardyukov in Moscow.
Last edited by VinayG on 19 Nov 2011 03:23, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 19 Nov 2011 03:20

If Japan (funds and niche tech), and France (expertise) join in, we could create something fantastic. But, both these nations have big head weight. India-France-Japan make a terrific group to build a real 5th gen.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Cosmo_R » 19 Nov 2011 03:56

pragnya wrote:specs as per HAL link (future projects)

Image

The proposed FGFA will have air combat superiority, high tactical capability, group action capability in the regions even with poor communication support. The aircraft will have advanced features like

 Increased Stealth - Low radar cross-section (RCS), Internal deployment of weaponry
 Supersonic cruise and supersonic maneuvering capability
 Data link and network centric warfare capability.

Technical Parameters

Length : 22.6 m

Height : 5.9 m

MTOW : 34 Ton

Range : 3880 km

Speed : 2 Mach

Max Weapon Load : 2.25 Ton (Int.) & 5.75 Ton (Ext)

Thrust Vectoring : With Jet Nozzle (±15 º)

Engine Thrust : 2X1400 kgf

FGFA will be co-developed with Russians. Sukhoi Design Bureau (SDB) has been selected as the Russian agency for this development project.

http://hal-india.com/futureproducts/products.asp



"Engine Thrust : 2X1400 kgf" I hope this was your typo not HAL's. Else, this plane better be made out of balsa wood

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Victor » 19 Nov 2011 08:19

On the HAL "future products" page is my 7-yr old nephew's drawing of the little trainer that couldn't. :rotfl: :((

Image

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 19 Nov 2011 08:44

so it has to have a firang artist to render it correct: like here
http://www.defenceaviation.com/2008/10/ ... ghter.html
some others have some beautiful rendering here:
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/8435/99320423.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6879/1001q.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1876/1002t.jpg

of course, all artist images, but much better than HAL ones

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Nov 2011 10:32

JimmyJ wrote:IDRW: IAF sticks with Pak-Fa ,lowers FGFA numbers

Initially plans were to acquire 50 Russian version Pak-Fa single seater variant and later develop Indian FGFA variant with twin seater ,which could be around 200 in numbers , but recently Indian air force put the figures of 5th generation fighter which it wants to induct has 166 PAK FA and 48 FGFA.


Any other source available?


Damn good news imho that they are getting a bunch of single seaters; also sticking to Pakfas would mean earlier induction - the FGFA will take longer to develop and then productionize.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 19 Nov 2011 10:46

I think the RCS hit that twin seater PAK-FA/FGFA that was alluded to by SDB would have prompted to major into single seat over two seater , the 48 twin seater would act as Trainer/Multirole platform for T-50 and serve as export prospects.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 20 Nov 2011 11:37

If you consider PAK-FA to Su30, and FGFA to MKI, and say China gets the same model, is that okay? Is this not the reason we went for MKI?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 22 Nov 2011 19:24

So, a third prototype? pics? same look and feel?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 22 Nov 2011 22:28


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 22 Nov 2011 23:21

any youtube?.. can't access that.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Singha » 22 Nov 2011 23:31

looks the same barring some black panels behind the cockpit atop the fuselage and the irst.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 22 Nov 2011 23:37


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 22 Nov 2011 23:42

ok.. got access.
not a single Indian seen shaking hands.. so no involvement at all yet.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Gaur » 23 Nov 2011 00:01

^^
It was never said that India is involved in PAK-FA program. We are only partners in FGFA program.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 23 Nov 2011 01:24

that is the confusion still.. due to conflicting reports. FGFA program is not even scoped yet.. and there is no commitment from IAF on FGFA [at least from the last media link - few pages back in the thread].

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Kartik » 23 Nov 2011 02:46

Thanks Austin for that link. I was reading up on the MiG-29K/KUB article and it had this quote

Besides, MiG’s Engineering Centre Director Vladimir Barkovsky said in August that the first MiG-29M/M2 multirole fighter prototypes were to be completed by year-end, with the
fighters being manufactured under a contract with foreign customer. They will be heavily commonised with the production-standard MiG-29K/KUB carrierborne fighters in terms of
design, avionic and weapons.


Any idea who the foreign customer is? Yemen? Syria? So, the MiG-29M2 will enter production finally. Good for MiG.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Singha » 23 Nov 2011 08:13

iran or any of the CAR states too potentially. malaysia. north africa, venezuela.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Leo.Davidson » 23 Nov 2011 08:20

The Navy should pursue the Mig29M2 --> Mig-35 as its carrier borne and ground based multirole fighter. A dozen per carrier and a squadron per Command should suffice the Navy for 20-25 years.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 23 Nov 2011 08:58

Kartik wrote:Any idea who the foreign customer is? Yemen? Syria? So, the MiG-29M2 will enter production finally. Good for MiG.


From this report it looks like burma link

# 20 MiG-29SMT fighter jets, ordered in 2009 as part of a 570 million dollar deal, to be delivered this year;


I always wondered why Burma needs an aircraft of Mig-29 caliber. Interestingly news reports confirms that the deal was won after beating the Chinese J-10 and FC-1 offer.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 23 Nov 2011 10:51

Official Press Release from KNAAPO and Pictures from T-50-3 flight

The third PAK FA prototype first flight

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Kartik » 23 Nov 2011 10:58

Singha wrote:iran or any of the CAR states too potentially. malaysia. north africa, venezuela.


Certainly not Malaysia. They're not happy with their existing MiG-29Ns and are looking for their own MRCA competition to begin when funds are available.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Kartik » 23 Nov 2011 11:00

Leo.Davidson wrote:The Navy should pursue the Mig29M2 --> Mig-35 as its carrier borne and ground based multirole fighter. A dozen per carrier and a squadron per Command should suffice the Navy for 20-25 years.


what do you think the MiG-29K/KUB is ? the MiG-29M2 is itself being developed based on the MiG-29K for the IN.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Kartik » 23 Nov 2011 11:08

Austin wrote:
Kartik wrote:Any idea who the foreign customer is? Yemen? Syria? So, the MiG-29M2 will enter production finally. Good for MiG.


From this report it looks like burma link

# 20 MiG-29SMT fighter jets, ordered in 2009 as part of a 570 million dollar deal, to be delivered this year;


I always wondered why Burma needs an aircraft of Mig-29 caliber. Interestingly news reports confirms that the deal was won after beating the Chinese J-10 and FC-1 offer.


But wasn't Burma getting the last of the MiG-29s that aren't based on the MiG-29K? These were the older MiG-29s that hadn't been completed since Soviet times and after this, all such incomplete airframes were exhausted. Besides, MiG-29M2s for around $25 million each sounds a little too less, since the deal for 20 MiG-29s cost them $570 million as per the link you gave.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 23 Nov 2011 11:44

Kartik wrote:But wasn't Burma getting the last of the MiG-29s that aren't based on the MiG-29K? These were the older MiG-29s that hadn't been completed since Soviet times and after this, all such incomplete airframes were exhausted. Besides, MiG-29M2s for around $25 million each sounds a little too less, since the deal for 20 MiG-29s cost them $570 million as per the link you gave.


Yes I was thinking the same as to how the Mig-29M is so cheap , So i checked in Moscow Defense Brief which is more reliable , this is what it says

In the short term, the company’s situation is clear. It has an Indian contract for 29 carrier-based MiG-29K fighters, a Burmese contract for 16 MiG-29B/SE fighters, and a Syrian contract for 24 MiG-29M2 jets – a total of 69 aircraft for delivery by 2013-2014.


So the burmese are getting Mig-29SE which is the same as Malaysian SE type and Syria is getting 24 Mig-29M2. MDB puts the Syria deal value at $1.2 Billion

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Kartik » 23 Nov 2011 23:38

Austin wrote:Yes I was thinking the same as to how the Mig-29M is so cheap , So i checked in Moscow Defense Brief which is more reliable , this is what it says

In the short term, the company’s situation is clear. It has an Indian contract for 29 carrier-based MiG-29K fighters, a Burmese contract for 16 MiG-29B/SE fighters, and a Syrian contract for 24 MiG-29M2 jets – a total of 69 aircraft for delivery by 2013-2014.


So the burmese are getting Mig-29SE which is the same as Malaysian SE type and Syria is getting 24 Mig-29M2. MDB puts the Syria deal value at $1.2 Billion


Ah, so it was Syria..I wonder if the current Bashar-Al-Asad related turmoil in Syria will affect the overall order or not. 24 MiG-29M2s for $1.5 billion puts the unit price at $62.5 million..not quite so cheap, unless one assumes that it includes training pilots and technicians, new ground infrastructure specific to the M2 since Syria already operates MiG-29s and possibly some weapons?

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Austin » 24 Nov 2011 17:41

Kartik wrote:Ah, so it was Syria..I wonder if the current Bashar-Al-Asad related turmoil in Syria will affect the overall order or not. 24 MiG-29M2s for $1.5 billion puts the unit price at $62.5 million..not quite so cheap, unless one assumes that it includes training pilots and technicians, new ground infrastructure specific to the M2 since Syria already operates MiG-29s and possibly some weapons?


The deal is suppose to be in the range of $1 - $1.2 billion thats about $42 to $50 million , most likely it will include training cost , weapons and spares. If the deal falls due to Syria crises then RuAF would likely keep it as they did with Algeria returned Mig-29. Some update from Mig from Dubai Air Show MiG Eyes Asia, Eastern Europe to Boost Sales

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby ranjithnath » 30 Nov 2011 22:31


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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Singha » 30 Nov 2011 23:59

the last pic is very raptor stylish http://www.knaapo.ru/media/rus/gallery/ ... 52_big.jpg

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby member_20067 » 01 Dec 2011 00:10

Austin wrote:
Kartik wrote:Any idea who the foreign customer is? Yemen? Syria? So, the MiG-29M2 will enter production finally. Good for MiG.


From this report it looks like burma link

# 20 MiG-29SMT fighter jets, ordered in 2009 as part of a 570 million dollar deal, to be delivered this year;


I always wondered why Burma needs an aircraft of Mig-29 caliber. Interestingly news reports confirms that the deal was won after beating the Chinese J-10 and FC-1 offer.

they have their own little border issue with Bangladesh...

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby VinayG » 01 Dec 2011 09:23

Image

new prototype with RAM coatings :mrgreen: :D :D

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Singha » 01 Dec 2011 11:50

for a plane thats lighter than su30 family, I wonder whats the need for such a massive oak tree undercarriage legs? compare to the spindly legs of a f15 and we know the f15 still carries a huge payload.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jpointer/3475330030/

and before anyone chimes in 'need to operate from austere siberian airfields' - maybe that was ok for Mig21/23 era but these 5th gen puppies will need lavish food and maalish...the days of rough field ops are gone with the load of sensitive avionics they carry and the need to maintain every panel in perfect alignment rather than just give it a good bash with a hammer!

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby SaiK » 01 Dec 2011 12:00

perhaps they designed them for naval variant. the frontal pakfa is a killer.. except for a few marks here and there like the canopy frame and partial or 1/8th of engine blades visibility, etc. else, it should have very lo rcs. a golden canopy would be awesome.

not sure about rcs from other angles though.. especially those photos that is shot when pakfa is 15-25* up and flying showing the belly. they also said visual stealth signature reduction. not sure how can they make a RAM paint take chameleon colors.

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Postby Jaeger » 01 Dec 2011 13:06

^^I've noticed that Unkil's designers are the best at undercarriage packaging - right from A-4 Skyhawk to A-7 Corsair II to F-16. But the F-15 is the gold standard in U/C management - not only allowing clear wing area + ability to plug on FAST packs unobstructed + something like 10 fuselage hard points when FAST packs are in use.
Look at Predator/Reaper U/C - spindle thin, retracting into fuselage and creating huge clean wing space with low loading.
I think it's a very very underrated skill - packaging U/Cs. It affects:
1. Fuselage aerodynamics and shaping
2. Wing strengthening + Weights + Payload carriage
3. Fuselage weapons load and hard points
4. Fuel tankage + Avionics space


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