LCA News and Discussions

[SaiK]

Let us hope we have the FOC done with full satisfaction of IAF.

[PratikDas]

Let us hope we have the FOC done with full satisfaction of IAF.

I agree. Of course, implicit in that is commitment from IAF to the project or else they wouldn't be asking for more.

[SaiK]

It is important for our lab boys to succumb to IAF requirements. If they ask for 100kN engine, given them 105kN engine. always de-rate your requirements on performance and capability by 15-20%. anything more is welcome for future tranches.

what is irritating is the silence, and not these test per say.

[RKumar]

Guys ... keep your heads cool and minds clear of doubt... morning is about to being, don't loose your hope just yet!!

Dec is going to be good for LCA project ... at least LSP 7 and NP-1 should be flying ( It could be by 31-Dec-2011 but still 2011 )

[RKumar]

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 1717 Test Flights successfully. (21-Oct-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-301,LSP1-67,LSP2-188,PV5-36,LSP3-45,LSP4-41,LSP5-48)
TO
LCA-Tejas has completed 1735 Test Flights successfully. (21-Nov-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-211,PV3-310,LSP1-67,LSP2-194,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-41,LSP5-50)

31 days and 18 flights

Dil mange more

[shiv]

Guys ... keep your heads cool and minds clear of doubt... morning is about to being, don't loose your hope just yet!!

Actually I want LCA news to be boring now. Let them get the technology right - it is an important stepping stone to the next gen. The only news items I am really looking forward to now are Kaveri in Tejas and the NP being tested and weight gradually shaved off and the LSP-6 opening up the AoA envelope No one actually says how thick (and therefore strong) you need to make that undercarriage - and as it gets heavier everything that is is attached to needs to be made stronger and heavier.

Like someone said, if you don't know you don't want to design something that ends up being 75% of the strength needed and discovered after the undercarriage gives way after a hard landing. You are better off over correcting and making it 125% stronger and gradually shaving off till it is just the exact strength required for hard carrier landings and no more, no less.

The news about some "uncertainties" has been met with the usual dhoti shivering of self doubt and talk of "losing hope" . You all know what it is. You see the angle of attack testing needs to progress until they know exactly how far that nose can be lifted and any given speed. That may in fact make life a lot easier for the Navy LCA too. If it turns out that the LCA is able to fly slow at high AoA like a half erect you know what it could well aid the Navy too. But AoA testing cannot be done "simply" in a nation of people who wring their hands and lose hope at delays. Imagine what they will say if there is an accident. Our national attitudes have affected the LCA program in both a negative and positive fashion. This is an open fact and several people on the LCA program have spoken about it.

[SaiK]

You are better off over correcting and making it 125% stronger and gradually shaving off till it is just the exact strength required for hard carrier landings and no more, no less.

awesome insights there shiv ji.

wondering if we could have applied the same on kaveri thrust [125% need] - then we did not have to actually shave or strengthen, but IAF would have just accepted the extra power.

It is easier to shave off weight on non precision engineering, but when it comes to turbines, as long as it does not contribute to overall weight, it would be a blessing strategy to follow blindly.

[PratikDas]

Just to be clear, the prospect of an LCA mishap during high AoA testing doesn't make this dhoti shiver. What does though, is the prospect of the the IAF saying this is only a "Mig 21++" and not ordering more Mk1 rather choosing to wait for Mk2, which by the looks of it could take years. As you can see it has little to do with the LCA and more to do with the steadfastness of commitment.

If you can show me one quote from the IAF that they're committed to x number of LCA Mk2 come what may, I'll shut up. Do IAF dhotis shiver too then?

[RKumar]

Imagine what they will say if there is an accident. Our national attitudes have affected the LCA program in both a negative and positive fashion. This is an open fact and several people on the LCA program have spoken about it.

You hit where it hurts the most ... this is really sad part. HAL and ADA are extremely cautions so far because of what public and IAF will say in case of any accident. I fear they have hit a dead road as basic tests are more or less over with IOC-1. No matter when they are going to expend the flight envelop, it will have many dangerous tests. HAL and ADA should prepare themselfs to take bashing as it will be almost impossible to avoid some sort of undesired event with future tests. All I can say is all the best and luck shine upon local R&D!!

[SaiK]

that fear is a necessity here in the design, and is a fear anywhere on the planet. how many times isro and drdo have failed relatively and taken risks to achieve the desired results. we can afford to bash ups there 'cause there is no human involved part of the device, in any of these technology use.

now, the fear augmented here is a human sitting on the plane, and the what if scenarios. this is where dhoti shiver starts. it is important to have this fear, and the reason to bring in IAF/IN as early as possible to sit through the design team. design with user is most important aspect here.

the time they are taking may not be justifiable - no body knows if the talents are rightly used. we can only measure against equivalent talent force in other countries, and that is where people compare and contrast.

it is a flight fight of a different nature

[shiv]

Imagine what they will say if there is an accident. Our national attitudes have affected the LCA program in both a negative and positive fashion. This is an open fact and several people on the LCA program have spoken about it.

You hit where it hurts the most ... this is really sad part. HAL and ADA are extremely cautions so far because of what public and IAF will say in case of any accident. I fear they have hit a dead road as basic tests are more or less over with IOC-1. No matter when they are going to expend the flight envelop, it will have many dangerous tests. HAL and ADA should prepare themselfs to take bashing as it will be almost impossible to avoid some sort of undesired event with future tests. All I can say is all the best and luck shine upon local R&D!!

+1

Whenever we discuss this we always go off topic because the tendency to be critical of Indians - especially among Hindus (83% of Indians) is huge. There has been a 2 century long indoctrination into being critical about attitudes, appearances and products from India. We all grow up with it and all of us have it to a greater or lesser extent. Many of us "unlearn" it - but it is visible even on this board and certainly off it, in the media and among Indians in general (and has been that way as long as I can remember). I could write a long list of things that show this but it is off topic for every thread. Talking about it is not encouraged even on the "brave and open" BRF because it hurts too much when people are made to realise that they carry attitudes that are actually misplaced or even stupid, especially when they consider themselves to be patriots otherwise.

The attitudes extend to NRI desi kids saying "Why do Indians smell funny" and "Why do Indian girls have so much hair?" , right up to "scooter helmets", and "the need for "bad ass behavior". We are insidiously taught to admire certain ideals - and those ideals happen to have everything that Indians are thought not to have. There is no insight (among older people, parents and teachers) to either understand India and Indians or pass on that understanding because they too suffer from a self deprecatory "We are inferior slaves" mentality.

And it is sadly wrong to imagine that the younger generation don't have it. I can see it really strong among younger Indians too. Naturally, they pick up attitudes of their parents and teachers. And the armed forces have it too. They are us, after all.

Will start a new thread on this in the burqa romance forum

[PratikDas]

Shiv ji, I have some simple questions for you.

1) How does what you've written explain DRDO saying FOC is in 2012 and IAF saying it is in 2014?

2) What do you have to say about monsoons affecting the planned schedule?

3) Are you saying that a LCA mishap could cause a public backlash and make the LCA unattractive for the IAF to procure? This makes no sense because despite all of Indian media calling the Mig-21 the flying coffin, the IAF had no trouble in setting the record straight and even scolding the media for it. No such support for the LCA though. In fact, the record was set straight by the media being told that the LCA was only Mig-21++.

My dhoti isn't shivering over the LCA's capabilities. I didn't choose Sulur.

[arunsrinivasan]

Re. Impact of a LCA Mishap

My 2 cents is that in India, people will be roasted by superiors, juniors, media, public, pretty much everyone for trying & failing. If someone doesnt do anything & fails, no one cares. If someone tries something & succeeds, then everyone claims that success as their own. This is why there is so much fear over trying something, whether in Govt or in PSU's & even in Private Sector. Most people are therefore afraid to take any risks.

[akimalik]

Shiv ji, I have some simple questions for you.

1) How does what you've written explain DRDO saying FOC is in 2012 and IAF saying it is in 2014?
...

+1
I agree, the question is not about dhoti-shivering. The question was always about why the uncertainty even at this advanced stage of development.

[akimalik]

Re. Impact of a LCA Mishap

...Most people are therefore afraid to take any risks.

So whose dhoti-shivering are we talking about here?

btw, I think attitudes in India are changing (and quite quickly at that).
I fly R/C aircrafts, and a couple of months ago, I had a really pleasant surprise when a young kid (Class - X student) came to our field to test his newly built a/c.
What was wonderful about this kid was that he had built the aircraft all on his own.
His enthusiasm can be judged from the fact that he (and his family) drove all the way from Jaipur to Delhi to test the a/c. When the a/c flew, our whole field cheered and congratulated the young pioneer.
Its a separate matter that the a/c crashed on finals. But even there, we had a rudimentary post-event-analysis.
There was absolutely no dhoti-shivering coz the kid has already repaired the a/c and gone ahead to build a new one ... in fact he has been able to experiment with different airfoils.

on a side note, one of the topics of our post-event-analysis was also the design of his undercarriage and how though strong it was, it was not based on good engineering. which hopefully he has fixed in his subsequent iterations of the build.

another case in point is that many tech-students at their grad level have taken to experimenting with building their own flying machines. I was very pleasantly surprised one day when a guard in my colony walked up to me and asked me if I could help his nephew with questions related to flying (because they were building a a/c model as their college project).

so while there is a lot of support for such activities and consequently people understand the risks of such events, the qualitative difference between these efforts is the manner in which these activities are executed.

this is the area where I have my questions... and I would be keen to understand where things are headed in this regards.

TIA and looking for a healthy discussion.

[shiv]

Shiv ji, I have some simple questions for you.

1) How does what you've written explain DRDO saying FOC is in 2012 and IAF saying it is in 2014?

2) What do you have to say about monsoons affecting the planned schedule?

3) Are you saying that a LCA mishap could cause a public backlash and make the LCA unattractive for the IAF to procure? This makes no sense because despite all of Indian media calling the Mig-21 the flying coffin, the IAF had no trouble in setting the record straight and even scolding the media for it. No such support for the LCA though. In fact, the record was set straight by the media being told that the LCA was only Mig-21++.

My dhoti isn't shivering over the LCA's capabilities. I didn't choose Sulur.

Simple questions? er what's simple about these questions?

1) How does what you've written explain DRDO saying FOC is in 2012 and IAF saying it is in 2014?

My statement was made before your question and does not claim to answer a question you asked after my statement. The answer should be obvious to anyone who is willing to believe what he reads. The DRDO thinks that 2012 is the date. The IAF says 2014.

2) What do you have to say about monsoons affecting the planned schedule?
To me you give the impression that you are fairly knowledgeable about what it takes to test a new aircraft. Maybe you know more than me, but I always thought that
a. Bangalore happens to have the biggest aviation testing set up in India. Certainly true for the LCA
b. Bangalore is seriously wet during the monsoons. Cloud banks from 300 meters right up to 10,000 meters. Incessant rain. Thunder. Wind. Poor visibility. Clouds even if there is no rain. Great only for golf. This year not even for golf. Too wet. Clouds in the morning. Rain every afternoon and evening.
c. Aircraft need telemetry when they are being tested and part of that telemetry is a chase aircraft that keeps a visual cue on the aircraft being tested. Weather affects communication.
d. It is not possible to see through clouds.

But apart from all this what is so difficult about believing that tests had to be put off because of monsoons when someone in the testing business says that? It may be a genuine excuse. It may be an outright lie. On the face of it I cannot say whether it is a lie or a genuine excuse. I choose to believe it as genuine. What do you choose to believe?

3) Are you saying that a LCA mishap could cause a public backlash and make the LCA unattractive for the IAF to procure?

Two questions posing as one.
Am I saying that an LCA mishap can cause a public backlash. Yes. It will. Am I saying that it will make the LCA "unattractive for the IAF to procure?". No I am not. Not at this stage. It could have made the LCA less attractive if a mishap had occurred maybe 3-4 years ago. It was a need to avoid mishaps that led to designers and testers being 100% careful, and not 99% careful. That definitely led to delays. This has been stated by more than one person on the program. It may be a genuine excuse. It may be an outright lie. On the face of it I cannot say whether it is a lie or a genuine excuse. I choose to believe it as genuine. What do you choose to believe?

[shiv]

+1
I agree, the question is not about dhoti-shivering. The question was always about why the uncertainty even at this advanced stage of development.

What exactly is certain at this stage of development? It flies. It has worked so far. But it has not received FOC. So what certainties are clear to you at this "advanced stage"?

Nothing can be certain until it's all done. Everyone in the program is saying that.

As far as I can tell the people on the LCA program are saying "Things are progressing. Some things are slower than others and will take time. The dates are uncertain. It is a good pilot friendly platform, but more work needs to be completed and if problems arise as we do that (as often happens) we will need to work that out. We are confident that we can get it right but not confident about the exact time frame"

On BRF were are saying "Give us a date. Give us a date Give us a date"

The developers are openly pointing out the uncertainties that they have to address. We look at the certainties and get all worked up about the uncertainties. And different people choose different explanations about those uncertainties
1. Government of India, not private
2. Chalta hai
3. Indian Stretchable Time
4. Reservations in appointments
5. the best go abroad
6. Incompetent bums
7. Not enough salary
8. Unaware of what they are capable of and bit of more than they could chew
9. Weather
10. Basic Indian technolgical backwardness with complex new technology

Everyone is free to choose the one or more of the explanations above to explain the uncertainties. But the developers are fairly open about the fact that there are uncertainties and that they are working on them.

[PratikDas]

-----
Simple questions? er what's simple about these questions?

1) How does what you've written explain DRDO saying FOC is in 2012 and IAF saying it is in 2014?

My statement was made before your question and does not claim to answer a question you asked after my statement. The answer should be obvious to anyone who is willing to believe what he reads. The DRDO thinks that 2012 is the date. The IAF says 2014.

Shiv ji, firstly, I thank you for taking the trouble of responding to my post in some detail. I recognise you need not have. You’re one of the BRFites whose posts I follow and I take everything you’ve said in the right light. If I came across as not valuing your observations on Indian mentality, it was inadvertent because I assumed it was in response to my post, which is my mistake. I’d like to think I’ve benefitted from your past observations along the same lines elsewhere in the forum.

There was much said about the improvement in communication between ADA and IAF leading up to IOC. IAF oversight of the LCA project was said to have improved dramatically. A difference of 2 years in the forecasts of DRDO and IAF suggests this communication isn’t taking place as well as it should. IAF’s hard-learned pragmatism probably deserves greater weight but then the message from DRDO should be congruent. Even if the fuel-line issue and an extraordinary monsoon were to be tallied, there is only reason for a year’s delay. DRDO / ADA haven’t even mentioned IOC-2 in recent history. Some things don’t add up. I recognise that DRDO, ADA and IAF are not obliged to add things up for my sake, but no message is better than an incoherent one. After all, we’re not talking of state secrets like missile trajectories.

2) What do you have to say about monsoons affecting the planned schedule?
To me you give the impression that you are fairly knowledgeable about what it takes to test a new aircraft. Maybe you know more than me, but I always thought that
a. Bangalore happens to have the biggest aviation testing set up in India. Certainly true for the LCA
b. Bangalore is seriously wet during the monsoons. Cloud banks from 300 meters right up to 10,000 meters. Incessant rain. Thunder. Wind. Poor visibility. Clouds even if there is no rain. Great only for golf. This year not even for golf. Too wet. Clouds in the morning. Rain every afternoon and evening.
c. Aircraft need telemetry when they are being tested and part of that telemetry is a chase aircraft that keeps a visual cue on the aircraft being tested. Weather affects communication.
d. It is not possible to see through clouds.

"What do you have to say" comes off as rude in hindsight. "What is your opinion" was the intention. Nevertheless, we cannot predict this year’s to be the last such extraordinary monsoon. An additional test facility in a contrasting climate is required. An additional facility would not only accelerate the LCA project but provide greater testing capacity for LCA Mk2 and AMCA projects as well. If we’re serious about carrying lessons learned from the LCA project forward and serious about mass production [and testing], then there is no alternative but to develop an additional facility. I recognise this conclusion doesn’t need Chanakyan intellect so I’m not claiming a Eureka moment here.

But apart from all this what is so difficult about believing that tests had to be put off because of monsoons when someone in the testing business says that? It may be a genuine excuse. It may be an outright lie. On the face of it I cannot say whether it is a lie or a genuine excuse. I choose to believe it as genuine. What do you choose to believe?

If yours isn’t a rhetorical question, I believe the delays due to monsoons are not the reason for IOC-2 or a discrepancy of 2 years in the FOC forecast. I do not see this belief as being a choice, rather the only logical conclusion.

3) Are you saying that a LCA mishap could cause a public backlash and make the LCA unattractive for the IAF to procure?

Two questions posing as one.
Am I saying that an LCA mishap can cause a public backlash. Yes. It will. Am I saying that it will make the LCA "unattractive for the IAF to procure?". No I am not. Not at this stage. It could have made the LCA less attractive if a mishap had occurred maybe 3-4 years ago. It was a need to avoid mishaps that led to designers and testers being 100% careful, and not 99% careful. That definitely led to delays. This has been stated by more than one person on the program. It may be a genuine excuse. It may be an outright lie. On the face of it I cannot say whether it is a lie or a genuine excuse. I choose to believe it as genuine. What do you choose to believe?

My chosen words ‘unattractive’ and ‘procure’ unfortunately have an unintended connotation when combined. ‘Acquire’ would’ve been a better choice. I believe the IAF could show greater support for the LCA program. No one can ask the media hounds to back off better than the IAF chief himself. Paraphrasing what you have said yourself many times over, that Indians have miles to go in improving self-esteem, I believe the armed forces have the shortest distance to cover in reaching that goal if they’re not sitting between the goal posts already. It wouldn’t hurt for them to lead the way here.

[harbans]

Making a small aircraft is always a challenge. Fitting new generation systems in limited space, powering up and cutting weight with minimum compromise on Aviation systems, redundancy and safety freatures, drop tanks and weapons load is a tremendous challenge. So while making a small aircraft with a largely composite frame may have advantages in terms of a smaller RCS i don't see why at a prototype stage we should have given Nano parameters that make designing it all the more challenging. On top of all that, one wants weapons systems that load on heavier airframes, AESA Radars, FBW software, completely integrated modular approach and powerful engines fitted in space that's severely limited by choice. Tata Engineers and worldwide Auto engineers realize designing Nano was a tougher task than designing and manufacturing an Indica for example. But i think for the LCA somewhere in the beginning some bureaucrat felt let them design a small plane prototype and test them. Funding would be easy to accomplish, it would seem cheap and easier to obtain funds. Too often ergonomics is relegated to post design evaluation while in the context of a large complex interdisciplinary project like the LCA it has to taken all along in stride.

[shiv]

then there is no alternative but to develop an additional facility. I recognise this conclusion doesn’t need Chanakyan intellect so I’m not claiming a Eureka moment here.
<snip>
If yours isn’t a rhetorical question, I believe the delays due to monsoons are not the reason for IOC-2 or a discrepancy of 2 years in the FOC forecast. I do not see this belief as being a choice, rather the only logical conclusion.

No not a Eureka moment. Not least because the monsoon delays are specific to this year. Did someone say that the discrepancy between the IAF date and DRDO date is because of the monsoons, or is that a conclusion you have drawn after which you proceed to disagree with the conclusion?

I don't think the date differences have anything to do with the weather. The date discrepancies are due to differences in organizational perception about when the LCA may be ready given that both organizations are involved. I would be inclined to believe that the IAF is being more realistic about when they can have a fighter in service. The fact that there are multiple issues to be solved has been clear for many months since the IOC. And part of the problem is HAL's ability to arrange a regular supply of manufactured parts from third parties/private subcontractors for mass production as opposed to the hand built one-off stuff for the early versions. That is apart from the testing and flight envelope expansion issues. These things have been made crystal clear to anyone who pays attention to the details in reports about the LCA.

I believe the IAF could show greater support for the LCA program. No one can ask the media hounds to back off better than the IAF chief himself. Paraphrasing what you have said yourself many times over, that Indians have miles to go in improving self-esteem, I believe the armed forces have the shortest distance to cover in reaching that goal if they’re not sitting between the goal posts already. It wouldn’t hurt for them to lead the way here.

I think this is where BRFites in general (not you specifically) lose the plot and start getting into la-la land.

1. The IAF has a job to do.
2. They need numbers of working aircraft to do that job - also called "maintaining operational readiness" and beaing ready for war, one front, two front whatever.
3. When aircraft are due to be retired, the planning for replacement has to start years or even decades in advance.
4. The LCA was meant to replace the MiG 21
5. the LCA is already delayed so much that the IAF figured out 6-7 years ago that the LCA would not meet the deadline to replace the MiG21
6. The back-up plan was to buy an MRCA to do the job that the LCA was supposed to do, but was definitely not going to start doing within the expected time of retirement of MiG 21.
7. If the IAF is able to discharge its duties using the MMRCA,and still buys the LCA (as it intends to do) it offers a double advantage. It gives the LCA team more time to get their technological/manufactuing act together. The IAF in the meantime will not be bleeding strength from retirement as the MMRCA will fill the operational gap. When the LCA comes fully ready, it will serve to boost the IAF's strength and operational readiness to an even higher level while giving a fillip to local industry.

[akimalik]

What exactly is certain at this stage of development? It flies. It has worked so far. But it has not received FOC. So what certainties are clear to you at this "advanced stage"?

It has achieved its IOC, we have LSPs flying do these events still suggest that the LCA development is in an immature state?
If not, then reaching that stage must imply a level of maturity of the platform and the programme. Based on this assumption, logic would state that the team would have a better handle on giving better estimates of what is feasible and in what time-frame.

A gap of 2 years in the FOC dates suggests that this is not the case. This is my concern.

Nothing can be certain until it's all done.

Germany came out with Me-262 a brilliant fighter, the Type XXI U-Boats etc. But by the time it was "all done" the war was over.

The question is, if so much time is spent on getting the LCA to FOC, then at some point, it will start eating up the development time of the follow-on developments AMCA etc.

[karan_mc]

Tejas lands in Goa ,for Weapons trials

Finally some good news , for rather boring lca thread .

[krishnan]

From the link above

last time when Tejas was in Goa had test fired R-73 air-to-air close combat missile , this time the missile will have a target to aim ,unlike last time when the missile fired was un-guided and had no target and test was done to check effects of the missile firing on the aircraft .

on LSP-7 first flight is expected to be carried out in next few weeks , most probable in next month .

[adityadange]

in the last para of the above news i would interpret that they are testing effects of opposite weather on airframe/ weapons system if need arise to deploy the aircraft under such conditions. i am delighted with this as it enlightens how they are ensuring the best performance. i am dead sure this aircraft will prove one of the best in the world.

[shiv]

The question is, if so much time is spent on getting the LCA to FOC, then at some point, it will start eating up the development time of the follow-on developments AMCA etc.

Yes of course it will. No relief or silver lining there no matter how badly we want it. Suppose we rule out the usual excuses like laziness, DRDO incompetence, not from IIT, monsoons, reservation in jobs, fools, chalta hai etc- we are left with the most incurable and intractable reason of all. Lack of the technology. No one is giving it to us and we are finding that it takes time to develop it in house and make it perfect. And unless we have the trick in house - anything we develop will always be second best or worse.

Germany came out with Me-262 a brilliant fighter, the Type XXI U-Boats etc. But by the time it was "all done" the war was over.

Not just over. The Germans lost despite developing superior technology. The winners had inferior tech or they were behind.

[shiv]

Tejas lands in Goa ,for Weapons trials

Finally some good news , for rather boring lca thread .

Aircraft’s were supposed to arrive at end of last month , but was delayed for few weeks , top sources have confirmed that Tejas will be based in Goa for a week and air-to-air close combat missile will be test-fired from Tejas aircraft.

No reason given for the delay, but let me speculate.

Air Marshal Rajkumar has an article in the latest Vayu where he says how he tested a new pylon on the Jaguar to carry the R-73 (or something odd like that) . The pylon was bigger than the usual one and so the plane had to be thoroughly tested for flight characteristics with the new pylon. The flights test showed that the plane was unsafe to fly with them and the plan was abandoned.

Now Tejas has been though a set of weapons trials in Karnataka. We don't know if minor issues like a pylon design change came up. If it did maybe something had to be redone and flight testing done to make sure it was OK. And if rains delayed those tests, then you have monsoons delaying tests. But further tests cannot take place unless the earlier ones are done - so there is an overall delay. Pure speculation.

[Aditya_V]

Tejas lands in Goa ,for Weapons trials

Finally some good news , for rather boring lca thread .

Its going to fire IR guided R-73, still no MMR intergration and firing BVR missiles

[merlin]

I for one am extremely happy that the Tejas FOC is delayed. Hope all involved learn the lesson on not abandoning efforts half-way (Marut) which leads to the nation falling further and further behind.

[Lalmohan]

i think you are being unfair to the marut effort. we were denied critical engine (and possibly other) technologies or partnerships which set back that programme at a time of limited industrial capability. The lesson is that you have to build a large mil-eng complex (which we are now making real progress in), not just point technologies. this, plus the current discussion in the artillery thread on the lack of advanced metallurgical techniques explains why (OT) it is simply not credible that pakistan has single handedly developed its own nuclear weapons programme

[aditya.agd]

Looks like Tejas programme is going nowhere. It will remain one of the many technical demonstrators that HAL has built.

Next time give the entire fighter development contract to the Tatas or Reliance or Mahindras or any other private Indian Industrial group, they will produce the fighter within budget and time-frame. Why is the Indian government wasting Indian taxpayers money?

[vishvak]

Looks like Tejas programme is going nowhere. It will remain one of the many technical demonstrators that HAL has built.

Next time give the entire fighter development contract to the Tatas or Reliance or Mahindras or any other private Indian Industrial group, they will produce the fighter within budget and time-frame. Why is the Indian government wasting Indian taxpayers money?

My 2 paise onlee. The way Russians have multiple competing airline industries is a good example - if i am not mistaken - Illushian, MiG, Sukhoi. Heck Chinese clones in the market too - even in google search on 'Russian fighter jets companies'! If babus are too touchy, independent industries could make non-essential parts and test (mutually opaque locations) under observation near actual jet assembly - to minimize wear and tear after testing before assembly. Babus can see that over-all the power stays at the assembly line.

[shiv]

Tata and Mahindras have zero experience in building any aircraft in house. No point imagining things. For years people have made the same appeal only to realize that India has no fighter building experience outside HAL. The only alternative to HAL is HAL.

Tough.

Building in Russia, Ukraine, China etc is what we have been doing for years. Nothing new.

Just goes to show how tough technology is. We only imagine that because I have iPad in my pocket and I am sitting in A 380 all technology is within fondling distance.

[krishnan]

What makes people think that prvt players will be far more successful?

[vishvak]

What makes people think that prvt players will be far more successful?

Please delete if I am not addressed here, and therefore this reply is unnecessary.

Pvt. players will be successful because (1)money & scale-up profits and drive to go places (2)testing performance and discipline (3)independence thinking & concerns of off-sourcing non-essential parts that may also be numerous. (4)private sector experience, to think of!

[karan_mc]

HAL is just happy to assemble aircraft , great examples are Hawks and MKI , they have failed to enter any aircraft in production in time , biggest example his their own product IJT Sitara

[suryag]

IMO LSP-7 wont fly until the conclusion of the current weapon trials and the conclusion of hi-hot trials concluding because, to the best of my knowledge ADA wants to handover LSP-7 with the software with capabilities to do some basic weapon testing. Let us see how it goes. I hope they are also done with the wake penetration tests. That leaves us with BVR and the flight envelope expansion comprising of low speed & high AoA testing. Let us keep our fingers crossed and wait on.

[shiv]

Heyy..quit moaning folks. Cheer up.

What makes people think that prvt players will be far more successful?

Please delete if I am not addressed here, and therefore this reply is unnecessary.

Pvt. players will be successful because (1)money & scale-up profits and drive to go places (2)testing performance and discipline (3)independence thinking & concerns of off-sourcing non-essential parts that may also be numerous. (4)private sector experience, to think of!

Here is a response to this frequently asked question that I made in February 2011
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1035497

[Singha]

I am glad tata and M&M were mentioned...and not infosys and wipro

[PratikDas]

then there is no alternative but to develop an additional facility. I recognise this conclusion doesn’t need Chanakyan intellect so I’m not claiming a Eureka moment here.
<snip>
If yours isn’t a rhetorical question, I believe the delays due to monsoons are not the reason for IOC-2 or a discrepancy of 2 years in the FOC forecast. I do not see this belief as being a choice, rather the only logical conclusion.

No not a Eureka moment. Not least because the monsoon delays are specific to this year. Did someone say that the discrepancy between the IAF date and DRDO date is because of the monsoons, or is that a conclusion you have drawn after which you proceed to disagree with the conclusion?

Shiv ji, sorry to return to this discussion despite the subsequent revival of optimism in the thread. I do so because it is a suggestion of ineptitude on my part. Someone did in fact say this:

Deccan Herald: Tejas induction only by mid-2014
Answering queries from the media after inaugurating a conference here, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne said the IOC-2 is expected only by mid-2012 and the final operational clearance could be scheduled only two years after that.

Pointing out that there are some delays in its development, he said: “The delay is caused by the active monsoon during which not many flights could be undertaken. But there are also some technical issues that have to be resolved as we go along.”

I stand by the non-Eureka moment that despite the pride Bangloreans must have in the Indian aviation epicentre being in their backyard, climate-related delay in Bangalore is a systemic risk given your artistic description of local weather and one that must be addressed with an alternate facility in a contrasting climate for uninterrupted testing and greater testing capacity.

[A Deshmukh]

Can ADA split the LCA manufacturing and give different components to multiple private parties?

HAL can continue doing - assembling of parts to build the final LCA.