India-China News and Discussion

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RajeshA
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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 18 Nov 2011 11:32

I would urge fellow BRFites to keep this thread only for the purpose that Itaakat created it - for furthering a dialogue (negative or positive comments) between BRF and Chinese posters.

For discussing other matters, there is PRC, "Managing Chinese Threat" and many other threads.

Thanks

chaanakya
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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 19 Nov 2011 10:34

ltaakat wrote:
红领巾:
中国曾经确实拥有政府世界的能力 中国没这么做 我相信中国以后也会有征服世界的能力 他依然不会这么做 就像几千年来的中国一样 是不是你们印度人都觉得强大的国家就一定要征服世界的么?中国确实和许多国家有领土争议 印度也是 俄罗斯也是 还有以色列 英国 法国…… 至于所以邻国都有.. 我不想冒犯你无知..等你确定能数清楚中国有多少个邻国再来发表你的言论

To Ivanev:
I am whom you replied, I wanna say, Chiese government actually used to have the ability to conquer the world, but China did not do it, I believe in the future China will also have the same ability and it will still not do it. Just like what China has done in the past thousands years. Do you Indian people all think that a powerful country must conquer the world? China indeed has a lot of boundary disputes with other countries, but not EVERY! I don’t want to offend you, but you’d better come back when you can count clearly how many neighbours China have.


Itaakat

Please ask, how CPC and PLA of China manages to become aggressive to all its neighbours except North Korea , with whom it has land or maritime border. Why your citizens don't ask questions to its own rulers whether this policy would serve their long term interest or not?

Another question is how long China could keep Tibet and Xinxiang colonised when all other colonies including China and India are freed from the yoke of tyranny of colonial masters? Why you people don't exhibit sympathy towards them having experienced yourself what it means being colonised?

member_20187
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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 23 Nov 2011 16:28

Well, here are some hew replies from China:



什。:


毕竟双方接触到的不同,从小的熏陶就不一样,而各自的遭遇和打小被灌输的思想都不一样。
而且。就目前情况,双方的交流,都是以自我为中心的。
反正从这个方面扯到那个方面,因反对而反对。
说句冒昧的话。我并没有觉得这次交流有什么进展,或许这种“交流”缓慢而亢长。
但道不同不相为谋。
要说中国zf怎么样怎么样。它现在毕竟存在很多缺陷。但,事实是它一直在改变的当今中国。仅仅是几十年间。以至于发展的太快。家里会使用电脑的仅仅只有年轻一代。
我是希望印度有所发展拜托现状的。
嗯,应该让时间来证明吧。口说无凭,即使贴出一些数据。也会因反对被反对掉。
但有句话想说,我这个从小灌输中国教育的中国人的脑子里。印度不是朋友,但也不是敌人。而我身边的同学,似乎根本没把印度当成敌人。也许他们关注的少了些。

After all, We Chinese and Indians are raised in different social environments, and are instilled with different culture values, let alone different social encounters at personal levels.

Up to now, the communications we are having through inter-forum comments translation are all self-centered. Topics in discussion swing quite randomly, with rebuttals solely for the sake of rebuttal. Frankly speaking, I do not see much progress made in this discussion; maybe a prolonged, gradual "exchange" of ideas will work?

This just proves that people valuing different virtues do not readily come together.

With regards to the Chinese government, yes, it may have quite a few defects. But, the fact is that the way of governance by the Chinese government is always evolving in modern China. It has just been around for a couple of decades, leading to drastic changes in nation building.

I hope India to develop into a better-off country. Time will be able to tell. I wanted to cite some data to back up my arguments…. I did not, because I realized it will not help, as people in this discussion simply rebut for the sake of rebuttal.

My final words, I have a typical Chinese bring up. In my earnest mind, India may not be a friend, but is not necessarily the enemy either. For my schoolmates, it never occurs to them that China would take India as the enemy. Perhaps they care even less than I do.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 23 Nov 2011 16:29

Tombelf:

BR论坛?是Bharat Rakshak论坛么?
前两年在那论坛混了些日子,整个一阿三增强版的铁血,而且是把中国当做假想敌的。连他们那潜艇壳子下水时,都有阿三们狂呼“颤抖吧,胡JT”,真不知道一堆连发动机都没有的破铁皮有什么值得胡BOSS害怕的,那智商真心伤不起啊。

BR forum? Is it the Bharat Rakshak forum?
I was goofing there a couple of years ago, which is just an extreme version of the Tie-Xie (Steel-Blood, a Chinese BBS site) per se, and always took China as the imaginary enemy. Some of them screamed out “Tremble, Hu JT”, when India launched an empty shell which is supposed to be a submarine. I was amazed that what they thought would worry Boss Hu was barely a wreck of shitty metals which even did not have the engine installed. What a bunch of low IQ losers.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 23 Nov 2011 16:30

流浪猫kzl:


昨天看了个阿三的达人秀视频,我真的颤抖了,笑的·····市 联通
Yesterday I watched an Indian TV talent show. Trembling I was, due to laughing too hard. Laughed my ass out.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

tombelf:

其实阿三也还是有不少明白人的,rediff和印度时报的留言板上有的留言对局势的认识挺深刻的,不过在Bharat Rakshak论坛上这样的印度网民比较少,其实BR论坛里有好几个同胞在那常驻沟通解答,但真心没啥作用,言论现在还是那样子。这论坛坛风就是如此,交流再多也没用。
Actually there are quite a few A’San who do have common sense. Some comments on Rediff and TOI show insights to current geopolitical affairs. But not too many. A couple of Chinese have been frequenting the BR forum, but sincerity does not work there. The comments remain hostile, and the trend continues. Communication like this will not help.


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潜水 :

别小看人家,印度人似乎人人都有开挂般的能力,如果当我们有一天在航母上看到一群印度人挂在潜艇壳子上憋着气用手向我们光速划来我也不会觉得惊奇
Do not look down upon Indians. All the Indians seem to have supernatural capacities. I would not be surprised if one day our carrier sees a bunch of Indians approaching, with their breath held and body hanging over their submarine, at the speed of light.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 23 Nov 2011 16:30

Chisezhiying:


希望能翻过去:
印度的朋友说了,民主是最终目的,我想跟我的认同不一样,民主不是最终目的,是实现目的的一种方式而已,最终目的是让所有的人生活的更好,你是愿意生活在独裁的人民富裕国家,还是生活在食不果腹的人民民主国家,我想正常人都会过选择生活在更好的环境里,就像中国有钱人会移民去欧洲,美国,而不会选择印度,哪怕印度也是民主的,
就像Hari Seldon所说,我们认为所有的一切都是手段,目的只有一个,那就是生活的更好,怎么样才能生活的更好,首先就是要物质满足,然后才能讲精神,而中国和印度的区别就是在这里,我们的政府是独裁,但他给予了我们更好的生活,三十年来,生活水平的提高让我们很多人都有点跟不上节奏,但随着生活水平的提高,我们当然会要求政府能给我们更多权力,但这一切都是建立在不影响我们现在的物质生活的前提下。而如果像您的国家一样,在人民吃饱肚子还是问题的时候,在很多人还在饿肚子的时候,来谈民主,用我们的话说,就是画饼充饥,没有意义,中国的历史让中国人更加现实,我们不在乎那些所谓自由,我们在乎的是我们现在最需要什么,不稳定的时候,我们要稳定,当吃不饱肚子的时候,我们要吃饱,等都满足了,我们需要自由了,我们当然会追求。
最后在说点关于我们外交上的,对于中印边界,我们在这里指责对方没有任何必要,因为不管对于哪个国家的人来说,自己国家的领土主张,有多少是错的呢?难道当年英国对马岛的主权要求是错误的,马岛离英国十万八千里,而就在阿根廷旁边。外交上,,我们只做自己认为对的事情,你们也一样,我们支持巴基斯坦,是因为他们对于我们来说是朋友,西方人的敌人,并不意味着是我们的敌人,我们不是西方人,他们说的也不是天条,他们打着民主旗号攻克了伊拉克,打下了利比亚,可当地人民生活好了吗?战争只会让人民生活的更糟糕,我想当地很多人都很后悔他们让美军进来。中国有自己的标准,而你们也有自己的标准,套用谁的标准都是愚蠢的。
很高兴能和印度朋友分享自己的想法,最后说句话:我们都被自己国家洗脑,不管是民主的洗脑,还是独裁的洗脑,都吸收了太多自己的制度的优点,太多其他制度的缺点,我们不要希望说服对方,我们应该希望自己的话能给对方多一点新的想法,改变思维总是很难的,但开阔下思维就没有那么困难,不是吗?
感谢各位翻译大大的辛苦工作,希望我们的交流能一直进行下去,

Hope what I would like to say can get translated:
One of the Indian friends claimed that democracy is the ultimate goal, which I would differ. Democracy cannot be the ultimate goal; rather, it is simply a means to achieve the goal, to make life better off for all the people. Let me ask you, which do you prefer, to live an affluent life under a “dictatorship”, or in poverty under “democracy”? I believe ordinary people would prefer living in an economically better-off society, just like the better-off Chinese who would emigrate to Europe, or the United States, rather than to India, even though India is “democratic”.

Hari Seldon is right in that we believe that among all the forms of governance, what matters to us the most is whether or not the government leads us to a better life, materialistic first and spiritual later. This could be the difference between India and China. Our government may be “authoritarian”, but it delivers, making our life better and better for the past three decades.

With the improvement of living standards, more people will certainly request more direct involvement in the government for political decisions. This demand should be stringent on the premise not compromising the materialistic life. For us, it does not make any sense, and is delusional to talk about democracy when people are not fed, like what is happening in your country.

History has made us Chinese pragmatic, and we care the least about the “freedom” you guys talk about. We want our people being fed, want a stable society, and then, only then, of course we think about “freedom”.

Finally, let us talk about our foreign policies. With regards to Sino-indian border disputes, it is pointless for us to blame each other. Who would admit own wrongs in territorial disputes?

Is it wrong for the British to claim sovereignty over Falklands, which is located very close to Argentina but far away from the British islands? In foreign affairs, we do what is right to us, and so you too. We support Pakistan, because they have been consistently friendly to us. The fact that the West takes Pakistan as their enemy does not make Pakistan our enemy. Whatever the West says is no longer the godly ordinance. It is the West who in the name of democracy invaded and occupied Iraq, and attacked Libya. Did what they did help the local people? War only made the local people suffer, who can only regret their decision to let the U.S. occupation happen. China upholds her own values, and India does hers too. It is stupid to take others as their own.

After pleasantly sharing my thoughts with your guys, here are my last words. In someway, Chinese and Indians all are blinded by their own national interests, democratic or authoritarian. We are taught all the good things about our own form of government, and the bad things about those of other’s. As such, there is no way that we can possibly convince the other side. Instead, we should hope the exchange of ideas to bring about some new angles for looking at the differences between us. This should be the least achievable, don’t you think? Thanks to the efforts by people who volunteered to translate, and I hope this trend continues.

member_20187
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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 23 Nov 2011 16:32

2OO3UB313 :

印度应该有能力自己武装军队,这样才会被人看得起。
If Indians want to be respected by other countries, they must first gain the ability to arm their troops.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------`````````

Callofduty:(this comment was originally written in English)


The Indian's mind has tied to the Sino-India Border Conflict.Well,and I don't think they will ever get over it,therefore,it is almost imopossible for Indian and us to sit down and have a nice talk.

Pakistan has been a reliable friend from time to time,and we will not betray Pakistanian before they do.Indian,on the other hand,always believe China pose a threat to India's security.In fact we are more interested in issues with Japan,Korea and even ASEAN countries.Because It is not a good idea to climb the Himalaya moutain to teach anybody a lesson.As long as Indian keep the border quiet,we would not mind to settle things on the talbe,But you Indian have a different idea,don't you?

Democracy doesn't create economical miracles,People do.

According to WHO,In 1990

Age1-4 infant death rate
China :0.227%
India :0.96%


In 2009:
China:0.063%
India:0.407%

According to Transparecy International

In 2010 the corrupation of China in the globe was ranked as the 78th,I am definitely not proud of it,and where is India? the 87th.





We you Indian beat us in those figures,I would reckon Indian's democracy is much much more better than our "dictatorship"

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 23 Nov 2011 16:34

These are the new replies from CHINA, check it plz.
And thanks to the translator who helped me did this job. I'm very appreciate :)



Maybe I should have a rest then.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 23 Nov 2011 18:35

ltaakat wrote:These are the new replies from CHINA, check it plz.
And thanks to the translator who helped me did this job. I'm very appreciate :)



Maybe I should have a rest then.


There are a few Chinese who come here from time to time. The experience is that they try too hard, making all kinds of theories, and beating around the bush, when the reality of Indo-Chinese relations is much simpler.

China has to be held responsible for any terrorism emanating from Pakistan, from behind the Chinese-supplied nuclear shield. Once the Chinese start addressing that, then progress can be made.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 23 Nov 2011 19:05

itaakat ji,

I see you've been busy with translations. Good Work!

However I really fail to understand, where all this is taking us. Here is how I see it.

1) When Tibet was a buffer state between India and China, we had all the possibilities of having a fruitful relationship. This is not so anymore. India and China are basically strategic rivals. Nobody on BRF (and may be in India) really trust the Chinese after Occupation of Tibet, Occupation of Aksai-Chin, 1962 India-China War, Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons to Pakistan, and Support for Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism in the UNSC.

2) Basically it is useless to tell the Chinese what wrong they have done, because they will only see it the above mentioned Expansionism, Nuclear Proliferation and Support to Pak as simply looking after their strategic interests.

3) On the political front, Indians don't really have much respect for the Chinese political system, for it is just an enslavement of the people by the Communist Party of China, Chinese people do not have democratic rights, cannot choose their own representatives. Chinese are of course programmed/convinced that all that doesn't matter. Indians can understand that Chinese would react this way, or at least Chinese Internet Warriors would be of this opinion. It doesn't matter, whether the message gets through or not. But it is what Indians think.

4) Those are stated positions. Basically it is useless regurgitating this over and over again. All that I am seeing here is Chinese vitriol on these lines being spammed here.

5) So on these issues, future would bring whatever it brings, and may be there would be a resolution one way or another. May be we will all go up in mushroom clouds. Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong, Delhi, Mumbai, ... all would have radioactive fallout. This is the direction the CPC is pushing the issue. So both of our nations would have to do collective suicide. It may bother some Indians, while other Indians have gotten used to the idea. Call it the Karmic Cycle, Fate, Destiny, whatever!

6) If you really want to tell your countrymen anything, then tell them that is what is in store for all of us - Collective Nuclear Suicide. It is going to be a big party. They are all invited to it. They should just get themselves a pair of sunglasses in time. I don't really see any way to avoid it. Not after what China has done!

7) So all these exchanges between Indians and Chinese on the question of Geopolitics is useless. Perhaps you can make better use of your efforts in some other Indian forum, which has more to do with Culture, Food, Films, Bruce Lee and Bird Watching!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 23 Nov 2011 19:19

^^^ RajeshA ji, as regards Tibet, Aksai Chin there are two sides to the story - Tibet has at various points in time dominated parts of Han China, and at other points in time been a vassal state. If China as a whole comes closer to Buddhist and Confucian traditions, it would not be impossible for the Hans to have a cordial relationship with the Tibetans.

But as I see it, in China the aggressive and militarist mindset is dominant. The Communists are quite repressive towards even the Hans who have many grievances ... so cannot expect situation in Tibet to be good.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 23 Nov 2011 19:23

Pranav ji,

Han Chinese can have, in fact should have, a cordial relationship with the Tibetans, but that is actually irrelevant for me as an Indian. For India it is important that Tibet again become a buffer state between India and China, and for that PRC needs to release Tibet from its grasp.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 23 Nov 2011 19:25

RajeshA wrote:Pranav ji,

Han Chinese can have, in fact should have, a cordial relationship with the Tibetans, but that is actually irrelevant for me as an Indian. For India it is important that Tibet again become a buffer state between India and China, and for that PRC needs to release Tibet from its grasp.


I think that should not be made a core issue ... as I said Tibet has been a Chinese protectorate in the past.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 23 Nov 2011 19:30

Pranav wrote:I think that should not be made a core issue ... as I said Tibet has been a Chinese protectorate in the past.

Well you are entitled to your opinion. As far as I am concerned, that is the core issue. India would not be having any border problems with China if they were not sitting in Tibet.

If you want to buy into Chinese propaganda about their claims on Tibet, you can go ahead.

Basically I also do not wish to discuss this issue here in this thread.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby harbans » 23 Nov 2011 19:32

Good post Rajesh Ji..i agree it's pointless talking Geo politics when normal Chinese hardly can influence CPC policies towards their neighbors. The Chinese being recent occupiers of the Tibetan region, have no clue what kind of relations Indians and Tibetans have nurtured over centuries. Relations that meant the exactitude of the border were irrelevant to both of us. When the Chinese came it was a rude shock that finality of the border position was Geo political gamesmanship, perpetrated by nuclear arming Pakistan. Obviously the common Chinese citizen is hardly in the know why India-Chinese relations are so low politically. All he reads are the articles in the Chinese press on all weather friendship between Paki's and themselves. The replies that i read were all clearly immature impressions. Nothing more to them. There is no analysis in them. The best for India-Chinese relationship would be China going back to the Western borders and leaving Tibet alone.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 23 Nov 2011 19:37

RajeshA wrote:Well you are entitled to your opinion. As far as I am concerned, that is the core issue. India would not be having any border problems with China if they were not sitting in Tibet.


The border problems are in fact not as important as the issue of terrorism protected by Chinese supplied nuclear weapons.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 23 Nov 2011 19:44

Pranav wrote:The border problems are in fact not as important as the issue of terrorism protected by Chinese supplied nuclear weapons.

OT,

you're looking at it then in a piece-meal way!

China's whole policy towards India is based on its need to keep its illegitimate occupation over Tibet and its need to dominate Asia. Every thing else is a derivative.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 23 Nov 2011 19:53

RajeshA wrote:If you want to buy into Chinese propaganda about their claims on Tibet, you can go ahead.

No need to fanatically reject what the other side is saying. Good to be open, balanced, skeptical.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 23 Nov 2011 19:59

RajeshA wrote:
Pranav wrote:The border problems are in fact not as important as the issue of terrorism protected by Chinese supplied nuclear weapons.

OT,

you're looking at it then in a piece-meal way!

China's whole policy towards India is based on its need to keep its illegitimate occupation over Tibet and its need to dominate Asia. Every thing else is a derivative.


I already mentioned the militarist mindset that prevails in China, I agree with you on that.

But what has happened is that the cycle of actions and reactions has escalated way beyond the original cause.

I would say the correct response would be to build up capacity, cooperate on defense with Vietnam, Japan and South Korea, and wait things out, when cooler heads prevail inside China, things may improve.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby harbans » 23 Nov 2011 20:05

No need to fanatically reject what the other side is saying. Good to be open, balanced, skeptical.


China doesn't have any claim on Tibet really apart from a brief period Manchu's ruled over Tibet and Han China. Han claim on Tibet is non existent apart from the last few decades. That apart, China's need to proliferate to Pakistan lies in maintaining suzerainty over Tibet, Xingang.

If we keep looking at being 'balanced and open'..on such blatant occupation and aggression we should be open, balanced when Chinese talk on claiming Arunachal Pradesh, Nepal. Sikkim, Bhutan, North-East and Bodh Gaya. That sort of thinking and logic has got us facing nuclear Armageddon now.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby A_Gupta » 23 Nov 2011 20:14

Itaakat,
Thanks!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 23 Nov 2011 20:17

harbans wrote:
No need to fanatically reject what the other side is saying. Good to be open, balanced, skeptical.


China doesn't have any claim on Tibet really apart from a brief period Manchu's ruled over Tibet and Han China. Han claim on Tibet is non existent apart from the last few decades. That apart, China's need to proliferate to Pakistan lies in maintaining suzerainty over Tibet, Xingang.

If we keep looking at being 'balanced and open'..on such blatant occupation and aggression we should be open, balanced when Chinese talk on claiming Arunachal Pradesh, Nepal. Sikkim, Bhutan, North-East and Bodh Gaya. That sort of thinking and logic has got us facing nuclear Armageddon now.


Chinese claim over Tibet is something that can be evaluated.

But ultimately that is like crying over spilled milk. We did nothing about it in 1947. So why cry today?

Meanwhile there are more critical issues to think about ... the Paks are rabid lunatics, and its not the Chinese alone that have used them.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Manny » 23 Nov 2011 20:39

ltaakat wrote:Chisezhiying:


希望能翻过去:
印度的朋友说了,民主是最终目的,我想跟我的认同不一样,民主不是最终目的,是实现目的的一种方式而已,最终目的是让所有的人生活的更好,你是愿意生活在独裁的人民富裕国家,还是生活在食不果腹的人民民主国家,我想正常人都会过选择生活在更好的环境里,就像中国有钱人会移民去欧洲,美国,而不会选择印度,哪怕印度也是民主的,
就像Hari Seldon所说,我们认为所有的一切都是手段,目的只有一个,那就是生活的更好,怎么样才能生活的更好,首先就是要物质满足,然后才能讲精神,而中国和印度的区别就是在这里,我们的政府是独裁,但他给予了我们更好的生活,三十年来,生活水平的提高让我们很多人都有点跟不上节奏,但随着生活水平的提高,我们当然会要求政府能给我们更多权力,但这一切都是建立在不影响我们现在的物质生活的前提下。而如果像您的国家一样,在人民吃饱肚子还是问题的时候,在很多人还在饿肚子的时候,来谈民主,用我们的话说,就是画饼充饥,没有意义,中国的历史让中国人更加现实,我们不在乎那些所谓自由,我们在乎的是我们现在最需要什么,不稳定的时候,我们要稳定,当吃不饱肚子的时候,我们要吃饱,等都满足了,我们需要自由了,我们当然会追求。
最后在说点关于我们外交上的,对于中印边界,我们在这里指责对方没有任何必要,因为不管对于哪个国家的人来说,自己国家的领土主张,有多少是错的呢?难道当年英国对马岛的主权要求是错误的,马岛离英国十万八千里,而就在阿根廷旁边。外交上,,我们只做自己认为对的事情,你们也一样,我们支持巴基斯坦,是因为他们对于我们来说是朋友,西方人的敌人,并不意味着是我们的敌人,我们不是西方人,他们说的也不是天条,他们打着民主旗号攻克了伊拉克,打下了利比亚,可当地人民生活好了吗?战争只会让人民生活的更糟糕,我想当地很多人都很后悔他们让美军进来。中国有自己的标准,而你们也有自己的标准,套用谁的标准都是愚蠢的。
很高兴能和印度朋友分享自己的想法,最后说句话:我们都被自己国家洗脑,不管是民主的洗脑,还是独裁的洗脑,都吸收了太多自己的制度的优点,太多其他制度的缺点,我们不要希望说服对方,我们应该希望自己的话能给对方多一点新的想法,改变思维总是很难的,但开阔下思维就没有那么困难,不是吗?
感谢各位翻译大大的辛苦工作,希望我们的交流能一直进行下去,

Hope what I would like to say can get translated:
One of the Indian friends claimed that democracy is the ultimate goal, which I would differ. Democracy cannot be the ultimate goal; rather, it is simply a means to achieve the goal, to make life better off for all the people. Let me ask you, which do you prefer, to live an affluent life under a “dictatorship”, or in poverty under “democracy”? I believe ordinary people would prefer living in an economically better-off society, just like the better-off Chinese who would emigrate to Europe, or the United States, rather than to India, even though India is “democratic”.

Hari Seldon is right in that we believe that among all the forms of governance, what matters to us the most is whether or not the government leads us to a better life, materialistic first and spiritual later. This could be the difference between India and China. Our government may be “authoritarian”, but it delivers, making our life better and better for the past three decades.

With the improvement of living standards, more people will certainly request more direct involvement in the government for political decisions. This demand should be stringent on the premise not compromising the materialistic life. For us, it does not make any sense, and is delusional to talk about democracy when people are not fed, like what is happening in your country.

History has made us Chinese pragmatic, and we care the least about the “freedom” you guys talk about. We want our people being fed, want a stable society, and then, only then, of course we think about “freedom”.





ltaakat, I disagree with you on Pakistan and border dispute.. But I totally agree with you on that you said about authoritarian govt that produces a decent lifestyle for its citizens over a democracy that is unable to deliver. Absolutely. Once a certain standard of living, education is reached, a democratic republic can come in that order. Its much more preferable over an anarchy that is simply impossible to get off the ground to do anything substantial as a nation.

In my opinion, an authoritative govt that is pragmatic where people are fed and have a stable society is a moral society in my opinion. A Nation that is anarchy that continues to have 600 million living in abject poverty is immoral. Not only that...a single family/party that has governed 90% of the time is not even a republic. Its a faux republic.

Manny

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Hari Seldon » 23 Nov 2011 20:46

Deja vu only.

Not the first time seemingly sincere Hans have come to BR chanting an Indi-Chini Bhai Bhai mantra - "why can't we all just get along, types". The outcome will also be Deja Vu only.

Realities change with time. Today's reality is the PRC is way ahead of us SDREs in tech, geopolitical, economic and political weight. Way ahead. Theek hai. Fortunately for us, we're used to being underdogs, have developed significant immunity to the vagaries of low credit agency ratings, low-cost cross-border proxy warfare, domestic insurgencies and the like and we still stand despite all that. Also, the low hanging fruit in socioecon and development terms are not yet all plucked. So, there's far more headroom to rise in in the coming decade or two when the growth prospects of the rest of the world (including, ostensibly, China) will dim significantly.

Chalo, at least we can curse and lament our Govt's incometence all we like without having to worry about midnight knocks, kangaroo trials, state-snooping, and the like. Jai ho, jai Hu.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby shyam » 23 Nov 2011 22:07

ltaakat wrote:In someway, Chinese and Indians all are blinded by their own national interests, democratic or authoritarian. We are taught all the good things about our own form of government, and the bad things about those of other’s.

There is an old saying about Russians and Americans. Russians know that what their government says is propaganda, and Americans don't. When I apply that to India/PRC context, it seems that Indians understand that what their politicians say is BS, but Chinese take them as words of wisdom.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby shyam » 23 Nov 2011 22:09

Pranav, if there is no India-China boarder, there won't be any interest for PRC to arm Pakistan. We will be much better off after that.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 23 Nov 2011 22:13

Pranav wrote:
RajeshA wrote:If you want to buy into Chinese propaganda about their claims on Tibet, you can go ahead.

No need to fanatically reject what the other side is saying. Good to be open, balanced, skeptical.

Does being open, balanced and skeptical require that one does not need to have an own position. Does it require that one simply accepts letting China keep an area 2.5 million km² which should belong to an independent Tibet? Does it require that one accepts Chinese claims over Indian territory along borders where China has no business lurking around?

There are things where one draws a line! Regardless of GoI's temporary concessions to China, the truth will remain, that China is an imperialist country occupying territory which does not belong to it, but rather to Tibetan people who culturally and ideologically speaking belong to the Indian fraternity!

There is very well a need to be fanatical!

It is Chinese strategy to make Pakistan a bigger headache for us and to keep our attention diverted. You're simply falling for the trick!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 23 Nov 2011 23:04

RajeshA wrote:Does being open, balanced and skeptical require that one does not need to have an own position. Does it require that one simply accepts letting China keep an area 2.5 million km² which should belong to an independent Tibet?

Regardless of the historical details, you are crying 64 years too late.

There are things where one draws a line! Regardless of GoI's temporary concessions to China, the truth will remain, that China is an imperialist country occupying territory which does not belong to it, but rather to Tibetan people who culturally and ideologically speaking belong to the Indian fraternity!

There is very well a need to be fanatical!

You are just beating the same drum again and again. What good will it do? Tibetans belong as much to India as the Cambodians with their Angkor Wat temple.

It is Chinese strategy to make Pakistan a bigger headache for us and to keep our attention diverted. You're simply falling for the trick!

China did not create Pakistan, nor has it been the only user of the Paks.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 23 Nov 2011 23:55

Pranav wrote:^^^ RajeshA ji, as regards Tibet, Aksai Chin there are two sides to the story - Tibet has at various points in time dominated parts of Han China, and at other points in time been a vassal state. If China as a whole comes closer to Buddhist and Confucian traditions, it would not be impossible for the Hans to have a cordial relationship with the Tibetans.

But as I see it, in China the aggressive and militarist mindset is dominant. The Communists are quite repressive towards even the Hans who have many grievances ... so cannot expect situation in Tibet to be good.

The way I see it, under CPC China selectively took up aggressive aspects of their once-great culture (almost on par with Indic culture in some ways)--such as superiority complex, all that aggressive drumming stuff, martial arts, and Han racism we saw at the '08 olympics, general ruthlessness etc., and threw out aspects like love of beauty, contemplative spirituality, harmony with the universe etc. But at the human level, you will see plenty of decent Chinese because no totalitarian regime is capable of completely washing out all humanity in people. This is why China collectively has become a problem for the world while Chinrse individuals need not be so.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 24 Nov 2011 00:44

Pranav wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Does being open, balanced and skeptical require that one does not need to have an own position. Does it require that one simply accepts letting China keep an area 2.5 million km² which should belong to an independent Tibet?

Regardless of the historical details, you are crying 64 years too late.

Why too late? Is it the end of history?

Pranav wrote:
RajeshA wrote:There are things where one draws a line! Regardless of GoI's temporary concessions to China, the truth will remain, that China is an imperialist country occupying territory which does not belong to it, but rather to Tibetan people who culturally and ideologically speaking belong to the Indian fraternity!

There is very well a need to be fanatical!

You are just beating the same drum again and again. What good will it do? Tibetans belong as much to India as the Cambodians with their Angkor Wat temple.

Except that Tibetans are our neighbors! As culturally aligned neighbors, their welfare and independence becomes our strategic business.

This drum cannot be beaten often enough! Apparently people have forgotten the importance of having buffer states.

Pranav wrote:
RajeshA wrote:It is Chinese strategy to make Pakistan a bigger headache for us and to keep our attention diverted. You're simply falling for the trick!

China did not create Pakistan, nor has it been the only user of the Paks.

However China's use of Pakistan has a singular purpose - to neutralize India! Also other countries did not give Pakistan an "invulnerability" cloak against India!

And why the hell should an Indian absolve the Chinese for using Pakistan against India, just because others have been friendly to Pakistan as well! Does it in any way minimize the Chinese contribution to the Paki nukes arraigned against India.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 24 Nov 2011 00:52

Hari Seldon wrote:Today's reality is the PRC is way ahead of us SDREs in tech, geopolitical, economic and political weight. Way ahead.


They have a temporary economic advantage. About 5-10 years at best. That is all.

Politically they are dead weight. Have nothing to contribute except some random threats.
Tech wise they still depend on West/Japan/Korea/Taiwan for new designs.
Geopolitical - only nation in the world surrounded on all sides by Nuclear bombs. Largely self dealt own goal. That is their true geo-political situation.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Prem » 24 Nov 2011 01:24

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:Today's reality is the PRC is way ahead of us SDREs in tech, geopolitical, economic and political weight. Way ahead.


They have a temporary economic advantage. About 5-10 years at best. That is all.
Politically they are dead weight. Have nothing to contribute except some random threats.
Tech wise they still depend on West/Japan/Korea/Taiwan for new designs.
Geopolitical - only nation in the world surrounded on all sides by Nuclear bombs. Largely self dealt own goal. That is their true geo-political situation.


Lets not forget we started a decade plus late . We are in for long haul and aiming for something different. Like i said ,The rise of China makes world tremeble and Chinese can enjoy it temporarily . Civilized world have always found a way to slay the Dragon which cause such trembling. The Rise of India will soothen the world and cause paradigm shift in human thinking and consciousness. The race is civilizational and Chinese have already started on wrong foot. They have nothing to contribute except Mao , Guns,Genocide, Street Thuggery and of course their best friend Paki and NOKO to stink the neighborhood after eating Chinesse supplied stuff .

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby MurthyB » 24 Nov 2011 02:29

Theo_Fidel wrote:Geopolitical - only nation in the world surrounded on all sides by Nuclear bombs. Largely self dealt own goal. That is their true geo-political situation.



Exactly. While their gifting of nukes and missles to Pakistan may cause temporary headache to India, they are likely to experience blowback in the future. Ask the US! And unlike the US, they will have a nuclear armed Pakistan sitting next door to them making trouble in Xinkiang. To avoid that, they will have to have the Pakis as friends for life. Don't know which is worse: Pakistan as a friend for life, or a Pakistan making nuclear threats against you after you have given them important gifts. Indians only have experience with nuclear threats WITHOUT having given any gifts :lol:

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 24 Nov 2011 10:58

RajeshA wrote:
Pranav wrote:Regardless of the historical details, you are crying 64 years too late.

Why too late? Is it the end of history?


One has to figure what are the critical priorities, what is achievable in a reasonable time frame, who are the third parties in the picture, and what their goals are.

For example, you were talking about a nuclear exchange. How do you know that such an exchange wont be covertly initiated by a third party via SLBM.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 24 Nov 2011 11:30

Pranav wrote:For example, you were talking about a nuclear exchange. How do you know that such an exchange wont be covertly initiated by a third party via SLBM.

That would always remain a possibility until the Chinese do not vacate Tibet, thereby ending the fundamental reason for India-China enmity. Chinese too are aware of this. If it doesn't bother them, so why should it bother me?!

In fact by giving the nukes to Pakistan, they have made their position clear - nuclear exchange with India is acceptable! So that is where we are headed.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 24 Nov 2011 18:30

RajeshA wrote:
Pranav wrote:For example, you were talking about a nuclear exchange. How do you know that such an exchange wont be covertly initiated by a third party via SLBM.

That would always remain a possibility until the Chinese do not vacate Tibet, thereby ending the fundamental reason for India-China enmity. Chinese too are aware of this. If it doesn't bother them, so why should it bother me?!

In fact by giving the nukes to Pakistan, they have made their position clear - nuclear exchange with India is acceptable! So that is where we are headed.


But then, in that scenario, third parties who set off the conflagration would benefit. You have no plans to get back at them?

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby harbans » 24 Nov 2011 19:13

Pranav Ji, the source of conflict on India's Northern borders is Chinese presence in Tibet. The source of Paki nukes we all know is China's policy of containment that spills more because of it's occupation of Tibet. China will not rest till it wrests Nepal. AP, NE, Bodh Gaya and the legacy of Buddhism from India. It would love to break India to insignificant warring entities that could pose no threat to Chinese expansionism. If India falls to Islamism so be it. The source of India's problem with China is it's occupation. The faster we recognize that along with our leaders, the faster China will go on the back foot. There is no end to 'not drawing the line'. We won't have a place in the Indian Ocean if we keep doing that.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 24 Nov 2011 19:15

Pranav wrote:

But then, in that scenario, third parties who set off the conflagration would benefit. You have no plans to get back at them?


One needs to find redline which should not be crossed and that should be made known and we should develop capacity and political and administrative will to follow through. In such a case, it becomes incumbent on the other party to ensure that no such incident takes place. They can not take excuse of non state actor doing for conflagration if red line is crossed.26/11 proved that redline is not crossed for Indian Govt notwithstanding public outrage. 911 proved that redline was crossed for unkil and what happened next is history. For each country different redlines. So we need to define or find redlines and adhere to that else one nuke in a city would become new threasold for us.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 24 Nov 2011 20:18

Pranav wrote:
Pranav wrote:For example, you were talking about a nuclear exchange. How do you know that such an exchange wont be covertly initiated by a third party via SLBM.
RajeshA wrote:That would always remain a possibility until the Chinese do not vacate Tibet, thereby ending the fundamental reason for India-China enmity. Chinese too are aware of this. If it doesn't bother them, so why should it bother me?!

In fact by giving the nukes to Pakistan, they have made their position clear - nuclear exchange with India is acceptable! So that is where we are headed.

But then, in that scenario, third parties who set off the conflagration would benefit. You have no plans to get back at them?

If we suspect the third party is Pakistan, then it doesn't matter because a Paki Nuke is in truth a Chinese Nuke. We nuke both.

If we suspect the third party is USA, then again it doesn't matter because we nuke China first, and when both of us have nuked the sh*t out of each other, India and China can both agree to throw the rest over on USA. Why? Because we can't really hope to take down USA with our nukes! And the devastation we would get in return would be comprehensive, which means USA may get a little hurt and we would be glassed up fully. Pakistan and China would remain! That would be a juvenile strategy. Sound strategy would be to take down our two rivals in the neighborhood, and if the Chinese have some nukes left, we coordinate with them to attack USA, holding the Americans responsible for the mistake but only in the aftermath of the nuclear exchange. An attack on USA afterwards would be far better, because we wouldn't really have much left to be taken down, and neither would the Chinese have much left. That would open up new options for cooperation! :wink:

So regardless of who attacks us, we attack China!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20021 » 24 Nov 2011 21:34

@itaaka,
Please make sure to translate RajeshA's comments to the Chinese sites. The voice of Indians has to be heard by people in China. Get prepared.


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