India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

MarcH · Post by **MarcH** » 24 Nov 2011 04:40

The discussion about better a2a performance leads nowhere. I believe EF is the better plattform for Meteor, yes. But is that of any relevance to India ? As long as China and Pakistan don't get anything comparable to Meteor both fighters will enjoy a healthy advantage.
And I wouldn't be worried all that much about RBE2 AA detecting Chinese J-11B barn doors...

The difference is logistics, not brownie points for minimal better performance here an there. That's where Dassault holds all the cards. Established supply lines, the just announced MICA buy, the M2K update with similar avionics, Kaveri/ECO etc pp.

Add to that the better maturity + already developed naval variant.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 24 Nov 2011 05:00

rajanb wrote: And BTW, are we paying in $s? Nope. One commercial bid was in three currencies, as reported. Hopefully the Lira! Was one of them.

There is no more Lira, Franc or Mark. I think the three currencies would be EUR, USD and GBP. All are bad news.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 24 Nov 2011 05:05

For FoV we're talking near 180 deg for the ASRAAM, Aim-9X and IRIS-T, and 120 deg for the MICA.

In addition to radar-homing, the AIM-120D has the assistance of GPS in tracking its target (though GPS is not nearly as effective against a fast-maneuvering target, let alone a moving target; it does give the missile a roll of 10 on a d20 to immediately regain a lost lock-on). The AIM-120D can be fired from High-angle Off BoreSight (HOBS capability); the seeker head has a 120-degree field of “vision.”

from here :
http://www.pmulcahy.com/aams/us_aams.htm

The AIM-9X goes to about 160 degrees

Python 3 of course, the 4 is a modern 120 degrees plus missile.
Python 5 is similar or close to AIM-9X.

Also remember that past gimbal angles and off-boresight,
as mentioned earlier, a lot is done with signal treatment
that pushes the envelope, those variables are classified

Also remember that those missiles in a network centric
war environment will be fired on electronic tracks from
the planes sensors ( as the case of the Rafale pilot whose
SPECTRA fired the missile ) or from exterior sources thus
locking after launch when the target is in the cone.

Point is that while its quite decent at BVR and WVR combat, it excels at neither.

I think that it is closer to second-best in both or very near.
And if you could reason like Dassault did when they made
the plane, you'd find that quite all right, Viv.
The Rafale is second best in all aspects of present fighters?
Fine then because it is second best in all misions and duties
while others planes do not even do them all.
The F-22 does CAS like a sissy

The Typhoon is darn average
on carrier landings and more so take-offs

The A-10 were
as bad as Harriers for Recce and so on.
But heck, that bird did recon better than the Rafale :

but, don't tell anyone but it sucked at dogfighting

I think Dassault should make it an advert slogan :
"-You want a plane that does everything second best?
We got the aircraft for you. The only aircraft!"

Good night all, Tay.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Nov 2011 08:10

Have y'all read this, from Vayu?

MMRCA - the contending missiles

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 24 Nov 2011 08:46

Victor wrote:
rajanb wrote: And BTW, are we paying in $s? Nope. One commercial bid was in three currencies, as reported. Hopefully the Lira! Was one of them.
There is no more Lira, Franc or Mark. I think the three currencies would be EUR, USD and GBP. All are bad news.

I know. Was just kidding. Or being sarcastic.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Nov 2011 10:21

In addition to radar-homing, the AIM-120D has the assistance of GPS in tracking its target (though GPS is not nearly as effective against a fast-maneuvering target, let alone a moving target; it does give the missile a roll of 10 on a d20 to immediately regain a lost lock-on). The AIM-120D can be fired from High-angle Off BoreSight (HOBS capability); the seeker head has a 120-degree field of “vision.”

Err... yes the MICA EM may have a seeker with the same FoV as the Aim-120D, but we were discussing the MICA IR right? The Aim-120D's advantage would lie more in the fact that it has twice the range of the MICA. If anything the Aim-120D should be compared to the Meteor not the MICA.

from here :
http://www.pmulcahy.com/aams/us_aams.htm

The AIM-9X goes to about 160 degrees

Quoting from your link -

The AIM-9X uses an imaging focal plane array seeker that has a 90-degree off-boresight capability; along with its jet-vane steering, this gives the AIM-9X phenomenal accuracy and agility.

That's a 180 degree FoV.

Also with regard to the ASRAAM that employes the same Hughes seeker -

For close-in combat the aircraft sensors can give target positional data to the missile beyond the seeker off-boresight limits of +/- 90 degrees. This gives the pilot the additional ability to fire an “over-the-shoulder” shot using the “lock after launch” capability of the missile. In this scenario, the pilot can locate targets behind the aircraft using, for example, the Helmet Mounted Display (HMD) or third party targeting.

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagaller ... ground.pdf

Its well in excess of the MICA's +/- 60 degrees.

Python 3 of course, the 4 is a modern 120 degrees plus missile.
Python 5 is similar or close to AIM-9X.

Given that it entered service in the late 70s, +/- 30 degrees off bore-sight was quite good.

Also remember that past gimbal angles and off-boresight,
as mentioned earlier, a lot is done with signal treatment
that pushes the envelope, those variables are classified

What?

Are you talking about the Rafale having a reduced IR signature? I don't think that would a significant difference at these ranges.

Also remember that those missiles in a network centric
war environment will be fired on electronic tracks from
the planes sensors ( as the case of the Rafale pilot whose
SPECTRA fired the missile ) or from exterior sources thus
locking after launch when the target is in the cone.

WVR the pilot will have to designate the target either with his HMS or by maneuvering his aircraft till the missile gets a lock. Until the Rafale gets something like the F-35's EODAS, that limitation isn't going away (this applies to the EF as well). At BVR, all missiles lock on only in the terminal phase, so...

Point is that while its quite decent at BVR and WVR combat, it excels at neither.
I think that it is closer to second-best in both or very near.
And if you could reason like Dassault did when they made
the plane, you'd find that quite all right, Viv.

Is the MICA the second best missile out there? You'd have to compare the MICA EM to the Derby, Astra, PL-12, R-77, Aim-120D and the Meteor. And compare the MICA IR to the R-74M, Python-5, IRIS-T, ASRAAM and the Aim-9X. Do you think their performance is better than all but one in each lot?

The Rafale is second best in all aspects of present fighters? Fine then because it is second best in all misions and duties while others planes do not even do them all.

Its an excellent all round aircraft (except for the undersized nose - it should ideally have been larger). No dispute about it. And yes it offers some capabilities that others don't. If India wanted a carrier capability for example, the Rafale would have been the ideal choice. But given the IAF's threat scenario, the delivery timeline and the industrial benefits desired, the Eurofighter appears to be (at least in my opinion) the better option.

Besides, the discussion about missiles was in context of the DACT. I was trying to make the point that a guns-only exercise was far from 'real world' and that the missile's FoV would arguably be more important than the aircraft's nose pointing ability.

BTW I'd appreciate it if you could space your posts across the page. It takes up less space. Cheers.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 24 Nov 2011 10:47

MarcH wrote:The discussion about better a2a performance leads nowhere. I believe EF is the better plattform for Meteor, yes. But is that of any relevance to India ? As long as China and Pakistan don't get anything comparable to Meteor both fighters will enjoy a healthy advantage.
And I wouldn't be worried all that much about RBE2 AA detecting Chinese J-11B barn doors...

The difference is logistics, not brownie points for minimal better performance here an there. That's where Dassault holds all the cards. Established supply lines, the just announced MICA buy, the M2K update with similar avionics, Kaveri/ECO etc pp.

Add to that the better maturity + already developed naval variant.

agree with you.

just adding to it, IMO what IAF needs is a striker to replace Mig 27s - which are on the way out and take the burden off the underpowered Jags (whose upgrade is yet to be decided and will take time when done). Rafale's choice seems logical and apt.

good posts Tay.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Nov 2011 11:14

MarcH wrote:The discussion about better a2a performance leads nowhere. I believe EF is the better plattform for Meteor, yes. But is that of any relevance to India ? As long as China and Pakistan don't get anything comparable to Meteor both fighters will enjoy a healthy advantage.
And I wouldn't be worried all that much about RBE2 AA detecting Chinese J-11B barn doors...

Well if you've decided that the PLAAF is a doormat and will never have anything comparable to the Meteor ....

The difference is logistics, not brownie points for minimal better performance here an there. That's where Dassault holds all the cards. Established supply lines, the just announced MICA buy, the M2K update with similar avionics, Kaveri/ECO etc pp.

I'd have thought the difference would be industrial participation and offsets. Assurances about commonality between the Mirage-2000 and Rafale tend to be vague and give little beyond the MICA. For that matter the IAF's Jaguar fleet is almost thrice as large as the Mirage-2000 fleet and looks set to field the ASRAAM. Though unlikely, even the Mirage-2000 may end up with the ASRAAM integrated. And then there is the Litening Pod integrated across hundreds of aircraft including the Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000, Mig-27, Jaguar and Tejas.

Add to that the better maturity + already developed naval variant.

The Indian Navy isn't going a induct yet another fourth gen aircraft. Its already committed to the Mig-29K and Naval Tejas. If anything, they've shown a distinct interest in the F-35B and F-35C. If Sukhoi/HAL can field a naval variant of the PAK-FA within a reasonable time-line for the IAC-2, it may get the thumbs up from the IN.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Nov 2011 12:20

the Mig27s are not going to last very longer looking at how IAF chose to cap its upgrade to 40 airframes only out of 100+. the Jags seem more durable and all got upg, and all will get new engines as well...the brits-french build them to last.

Rafale is the ideal replacement for Mig27 niche albeit it will do that stuff in a more stylish way not the short range cannon and rocket pod dives...

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 24 Nov 2011 12:24

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/wikileaks-ca ... 72-53.html
A

DTSA analysis found a high level of U.S. content, including

targeting systems, radar components and safety systems that

will require U.S. licenses. Next steps:

-- Although it does not appear that the tech data provided

with the French bid violated ITAR regs, PM/DDTC and DTSA

should continue to monitor French marketing to ensure

Dassault does not skirt ITAR restrictions.

Mica is decent missile, MICA-IR is useful indeed but the EM version is not needed. We're better off getting a longer range BVR or if you want something similar the Derby is a cheaper option. Since LCA is slated to get Derby a larger Derby order would be ok. But Derby too is has a range of 60+km. Not clear how much. Aim-120C-7/D or Meteor are ideal BVR missiles. For the rest of the fleet python-5 or a jointly developed python-6 with Israel would be ideal.

Meteor is a good way to go since the PLA is also working on a ramjet A2A missile, now will that missile be effective, can't say, but probably not. However, we could order a few hundred Meteors, strip one secretly and build a Ramjet Astra

, sometimes is better to simply reverse engineer than waste time developing ourselves. Rafale is a good aircraft, its the french and yes it does sound like i am a wacist little son of a witch. They are not soo easy to work with. Rafale does have better payload capability and higher range which can be useful when we have to fly into Chinese airspace. There also have been crashes in the Raffy camp, one due to g-loc/spatial disorientation and others seem to have been brushed away without proper explanation. If it weren't for the puny nose and radar, the refueling probe sticking out like a sore thumb and the french attitude which has cost them many a raffy order, it just might have been the ideal aircraft alas it isn't. EF has more potential and a bigger customer base. We can be a very big and valuable part of the global EF supply chain. They are bound to win quite a few more orders.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Nov 2011 12:37

Bumble-Bee wrote:http://ibnlive.in.com/news/wikileaks-ca ... 72-53.html
A

DTSA analysis found a high level of U.S. content, including

targeting systems, radar components and safety systems that

will require U.S. licenses. Next steps:

-- Although it does not appear that the tech data provided

with the French bid violated ITAR regs, PM/DDTC and DTSA

should continue to monitor French marketing to ensure

Dassault does not skirt ITAR restrictions.

Mica is decent missile, MICA-IR is useful indeed but the EM version is not needed. We're better off getting a longer range BVR or if you want something similar the Derby is a cheaper option. Since LCA is slated to get Derby a larger Derby order would be ok. But Derby too is has a range of 60+km. Not clear how much. Aim-120C-7/D or Meteor are ideal BVR missiles. For the rest of the fleet python-5 or a jointly developed python-6 with Israel would be ideal.

Meteor is a good way to go since the PLA is also working on a ramjet A2A missile, now will that missile be effective, can't say, but probably not. However, we could order a few hundred Meteors, strip one secretly and build a Ramjet Astra , sometimes is better to simply reverse engineer than waste time developing ourselves. Rafale is a good aircraft, its the french and yes it does sound like i am a wacist little son of a witch. They are not soo easy to work with. Rafale does have better payload capability and higher range which can be useful when we have to fly into Chinese airspace. There also have been crashes in the Raffy camp, one due to g-loc/spatial disorientation and others seem to have been brushed away without proper explanation. If it weren't for the puny nose and radar, the refueling probe sticking out like a sore thumb and the french attitude which has cost them many a raffy order, it just might have been the ideal aircraft alas it isn't. EF has more potential and a bigger customer base. We can be a very big and valuable part of the global EF supply chain. They are bound to win quite a few more orders.

Well there was no Indian decesion to drop Rafale, then are Wikileaks reliable??

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 24 Nov 2011 14:27

I found one interesting comment by one unknown Sathish Chandra below the BR news India buries 26/11 without justice or honour When I checked the link provided and I found this article. Wonder how credible is this article and who is this guy ?

Indian Air Force Pilots' Murder

P.S. Added later : I read one of his artcile. A lot looks like self boosting without any comprehension and TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE TITTLE UNDER WHICH an article is written, and a crap !! For example under the title "Nuclear Supremacy for India over U.S." he end up writing about baba Ramdev !!

Admins, you are free to edit/remove the linsks, as you please.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 24 Nov 2011 14:33

He seems to be following BR's every thread

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 24 Nov 2011 15:05

Well there was no Indian decesion to drop Rafale, then are Wikileaks reliable??[/quote]

Rafale almost missed the boat on the MRCA when the MOD thought of kicking out Dassault due to repeatedly failing to communicate answers about certains questions the MOD had before the trials began. It's also very strange that Raffy which was very close to winning in brazil also had problems which i am sure are due to TOT issues. The French were running their mouth off about how the Raffy is independent from the US and is ITAR free and how Brazil would have an aircraft with full-tot, till unkil sam should put them back in their place with the DTSA analysis. Lo and behold Brazilian decision was stalled.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 24 Nov 2011 16:58

OT

Prabu wrote:
Indian Air Force Pilots' Murder

P.S. Added later : I read one of his artcile. A lot looks like self boosting without any comprehension and TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE TITTLE UNDER WHICH an article is written, and a crap !! For example under the title "Nuclear Supremacy for India over U.S." he end up writing about baba Ramdev !!

Admins, you are free to edit/remove the linsks, as you please.

Not just that..

You have gems like..

"More than a thousand Indian Air Force aircraft have crashed since 1970, the vast majority of the crashes caused by microwaves from U. S. satellites."

and this "I am India's expert in strategic defence, the father of India's strategic program including the Integrated Guided Missile Development Program and the world's greatest scientist"

This guy has an Indian name and writes like a Paki

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 24 Nov 2011 18:13

sudhan wrote:OT

Prabu wrote:
Indian Air Force Pilots' Murder

P.S. Added later : I read one of his artcile. A lot looks like self boosting without any comprehension and TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE TITTLE UNDER WHICH an article is written, and a crap !! For example under the title "Nuclear Supremacy for India over U.S." he end up writing about baba Ramdev !!

Admins, you are free to edit/remove the linsks, as you please.
Not just that.. You have gems like..

"More than a thousand Indian Air Force aircraft have crashed since 1970, the vast majority of the crashes caused by microwaves from U. S. satellites."

and this "I am India's expert in strategic defence, the father of India's strategic program including the Integrated Guided Missile Development Program and the world's greatest scientist"

This guy has an Indian name and writes like a Paki

Well since he seems to be reading every bit, time to call him out to BR. BR has never really had a world class comedian. Such a 'high' profile guy needs our utmost respect.

"Dear Mr. Satish, please do honor us by joining BR. Your 'high'ness, we here are trumped by your power, knowledge and wisdom. Your 'high'ness, would be ever so kind to please pass around what your smoking. I hear, your the grand dad of crack smoking, please have mercy on us weak masses and enlighten us with your crack smoking methodology. Stop hogging all the good shit"

That said, I am at loss of words. WOW.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 24 Nov 2011 18:24

The guy is a schizophrenic.. He was a member on BRFite.. Shiv showed him the door.. Pay no attention to what he writes.. You ll find a few like him in the psychiatry wards of your local hospital..

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 24 Nov 2011 20:55

@ Septimus_P

Much better posting, thank you, mate!

As you quoted :

Although it does not appear that the tech data provided

with the French bid violated ITAR regs,

which along with

should continue to monitor

is not the same as you
previously stated about "warned the French".

About MICA, nothing forbids that MoD-India asks for whichever weapon
it wants to be integrated, for both fighters. So if they agree with Python
or Derby, they can just require those. That is part of the deal.

However, we could order a few hundred Meteors, strip one secretly and build a Ramjet Astra

IMHO, India should leave such ways to the Chinese.
Cooperation is a better way to acquire additional knowledge
and earns respect instead of suspicion or worst.

They are not soo easy to work with.

... about the French.
I can see that as being the case, sadly. Still, cooperation on Jags, Gazelle,
Lynx, Concorde, missiles and corps like EADS, MBDA, Eurocopter et al tend
to prove that cooperation with the French yields quite good results as do the
upcoming Franco-British work as defined by the pact signed after the last
SDR in the U.K. to go Telemos, Light anti-ship missile etc.
( Or the Russians from Inertial Nav to Mistral? )
Ask the Brits what they think of cooperation with the USA on Lighting II

( The ball on the probe shows on radar, the rest is transparent composites. )

The MMRCA is a present tender; IAF's future is LCA Mk2/3 ... FGFA and AMCA.
Cooperation with any planemaker will help but does not have to be linked.

Lastly, Dassault did not communicate on SPECTRA and still will not now.
The reason being that you simply do not share such but India can exchange
the additional data it would acquire by using the Rafale at the PLA birds for
an opening in the full workings of it.
The Brazilian situation is a consequence of a change of govt which placed
the present emphasis on using the public money to more pressing issues
that the country faces ( can't say I blame them

).

“Depending on the evolution of the global economic situation, if the crisis turns out to be less severe than some imagine, then those plans can resume next year” Patriota quoted Rousseff as saying.
Rousseff said that the suspension of the bidding process this year was because of extraordinary budget cuts implemented in anticipation of the world crisis.

last news, september 2011 from here :
http://en.mercopress.com/2011/09/23/bra ... lve-months

The Rafale parts made in the USA are connectors, glues and the likes, not ITAR.
Some pitots too and the likes, all easily replaced for ITAR-free sales.
Part of SPECTRA is made in the US by THALES North America, that's true.
The reason being that equipments made in the dollar zone end up costing less
than those made in the stronger Euro zone.* The corp is still French and more
important, man, so are the patents!
As discovered in your weaky link, there was nothing to complain about
and if you really want to know, the best equip that could not be replaced by a
French product is the Martin-Baker ejection seat.
Then again everyone in the west uses those British top notch seats

As for the crashes, you mentioned disorientation in the first case, the second
one on trials for max load landings on the CDG was a human error of one pilot
hitting the other plane and both going down and so was the last when a broken
fuel gauge brought the plane back to the ship off Pakistan on A-Stan duties.
The pilot should have closed internal fuel circuits and then opened the drains
on the EFTs to lighten the fully loaded AC for carrier landing. Instead he opened
those WITH the internal circuits wide open causing the plane to loose fuel faster
than could be replenished by the "buddy tanker" available.

There, a less oriented picture of things!

Good day all, Tay.

* Most of Dassault's civilian jets' parts/systems are made in the US too
because of same economic reasons and to be near your main market BTW.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Nov 2011 21:13

connectors are vital in controlling the signals. easy place for eavesdropping.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Nov 2011 21:19

it looks like the euro might be on a permanent slide against the dollar, that will be interesting for longer term manufacturing costs...

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 24 Nov 2011 21:21

Thanx Tay, apologise for incorrect usage of words!
The DTSA analysis does mention sensi radar components, targeting systems and safety systems. sadly, i myself haven't a clue on how ITAR and patents work. Since, part of Spectra come from the US and US based Thales labs I think the US will still have to provide clearances. I guess full-tot would require US clearances as well. Raffy is a heck of a bird. No doubt, the high G capability is also awesome, in terms of acceleration its pretty good too. Love it's long range capability. However, the Captor-E being offered on the EF seems like a whole gen ahead, furthermore TVC was on offer for LCA mk-2 on EJ200, chances are it will end up on MRCA if we order it. apart from slightly lower range and max payload, EF too has quite a few good things going on for it. Since, MRCA will end being manufactured locally, a few large private players will directly feed into the global supply chain. EF I believe due to it's offer of industrial partnership would allow our companies to supply spares and critical parts to customers. If EF does come with TVC, Captor-E and other goodies already, MLU could be quite interesting and i am sure we'd have a lot of our own developments going into the MLU.
EF was also the aircraft to have met most of the over 600+ parameters. Taking these into account, i think IAF would be happier with the EF. I hope 'the aircraft' that pleased the IAF most wins. Doesn't really matter what I think as long as IAF gets the top choice it wants.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 24 Nov 2011 22:08

According to several sources the rafale performed better during the Indian evaluation. I know you can find others dtating the opposite so in the end nobody knows for sure.

A good clue is that the rafale performed better each time it was opposed to the typhoon during technical evaluation (Korea, singapore, dutch and more recently the swiss evaluation. We can include Brazil where the typhoon did not even make the pre-selection)

That's 5 win versus 0 for the rafale as far as technical aspects are concerned.

just as an illustration about the recent swiss competition (post 1150 on the bellow thread on key)
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... 99&page=39

and other technical evaluation (summary below post 9h55) :
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=2160

Besides Spectra is 100% french and is manufactured in Pessac near Bordeaux, those who appreciate red wine would probably have already heard of this location by the way. The previous source is completly wrong.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Nov 2011 22:29

What is bad about American controls is absent with French policies, and that is a ++. But why do the French behave in a manner to lose important deals like in UAE and other places? It is no secret about their attitude towards winning deals rather keep to themselves any achievement. This can go against a larger usability of the product. When it comes to usability, they have a different set of non-technical parameters to cover from economics to politics.

The French needs to be careful in non-technical aspects of marketing. The ++ is what makes the deal, and marketing is one of the important factor for getting it.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Nov 2011 23:51

IMO, either one Rafale or EF would be superior to what the PLAAF and PAF have (i.e. Su-27SK, J-11, J-10, FC-1 and F-16). Together with Su-30MKI, the MRCA winner would be more than a match for both the PLAAF and PAF.

As far as the J-20 goes, PAK-FA/FGFA is there and would come online around the same time (or earlier) as the Chinese 5th gen aircraft. Then, there will be AMCA.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Nov 2011 00:14

arthuro wrote:According to several sources the rafale performed better during the Indian evaluation. I know you can find others dtating the opposite so in the end nobody knows for sure.

I thought there was only one article (Deccan Chronicle) that claimed that. And its accuracy was questionable since it also put the number of technical parameters evaluated at 630.

A good clue is that the rafale performed better each time it was opposed to the typhoon during technical evaluation (Korea, singapore, dutch and more recently the swiss evaluation. We can include Brazil where the typhoon did not even make the pre-selection)

Hmmm... the Eurofighter did not make even the pre-selection at Brazil, while the Gripen and SH did, and yet in India.. the Gripen and SH didn't make the downselect, the Eurofighter did. What gives:?: Its generally accepted that the Eurofighter lost out because of air to ground capabilities being unintegrated or the time-lines for the same being unpromising, not because of any shortcomings identified in evaluation. In terms of basic design and performance, the T3 EF is comfortably superior to the winning F-15E variants offered by the US.

Taygibay · Post by **Taygibay** » 25 Nov 2011 01:40

Thanx Tay, apologise for incorrect usage of words!
The DTSA analysis does mention sensi radar components, targeting systems and safety systems. sadly, i myself haven't a clue on how ITAR and patents work. Since, part of Spectra come from the US and US based Thales labs I think the US will still have to provide clearances. I guess full-tot would require US clearances as well.

First, you are welcome!

Second, getting through the ITAR maze is quite hard.
If the patent is ... say Tanzanian then no ITAR.
Unless the part is solely manufactured on US soil then ITAR.
It can get very difficult to gauge.
As an example, Boieng won the KC-X tender but ...
one of its patents for the refueling is owned by Airbus/EADS.
They'll just have to pay for using it

Those things are very complicated. *sighs*

The whole concept is to source on a foreign patent or on one
already produced outside the USA ( in this case ).
Which is why the US thought they could control some Rafale tech.
Picture India manufacturing a replacement that goes around what
the patent covers and voilà : ITAR free

If EF does come with TVC, Captor-E and other goodies already

TVC is not on the planning but you can be sure that the Captor-E is coming.
AESA is a must-have technology for modern fighters.

I hope 'the aircraft' that pleased the IAF most wins. Doesn't really matter what I think as long as IAF gets the top choice it wants.

Yes, main idea here, that the IAF gets the proper bird for its needs

About the industrial offers, I'll stick to the idea that we need to wait
until after the MMRCA to know for certain. Who offered what, etc.

@Arthuro, SPECTRA is made in France but some parts are produced by
ex Thales North America Inc. now Thales USA Inc. for other uses (civilian).
It's what I just explained to Septimus_P.
If an uniformed person was to check it on their site, those would show as
products of that local branch which is how they are sold there.
Examples are found here :
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Countries/Un ... _the_U_S_/

The French radios bought by the US armed forces being produced in
the country fall under ITAR even if the French product they come from
does not.
IF those are modified by the local company in any way, hardware or
software, the resulting product is ITAR and so on.

In the modern market, it is very common which explains why the DTSA
procedure had to be done to check in the first place, just in case.
Think of BAe working on the F-35 only to find that their work was ITAR!

@Srai, fully agreed.

@Viv_S
Exactly why, apart from the winning AC itself, the evaluation made
by the IAF would be the nicest reveal to come out of the MMRCA.
It will tell us a whole lot when/if we get to know.

Good day all, Tay.

P.S. The mighty USA seem to think French can be worked with :
http://www.thalesraytheon.com/

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 25 Nov 2011 03:57

I thought there was only one article (Deccan Chronicle) that claimed that. And its accuracy was questionable since it also put the number of technical parameters evaluated at 630.

There was at least two other articles including the very reliable "la tribune" and the Deccan article quoted an indian officer. The little inaccuracy about the number of technical point is no big deal as long as the main idea was understood from the IAF officer.

Now if you look at the dutch evaluation and even very recently the swiss evaluation the rafale came on top against the typhoon with similar standard than the one proposed for the IAF.

The swiss evaluation was very professional and transparent and despite that the main emphasis was on Air to Air performance the rafale won !!! From all known technical competitions the swiss on is probably the most relevant to benchmark the rafale and the typhoon. It is the most recent and configuration are very close if not identical than for the IAF.

You can find quite a lot of videos of those swiss evaluation tests on internet. The trials were done by Armasuisse on Emmen AFB. Here are a few :

Rafale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR9Sf2lZ ... re=related (swiss test pilot in the front seat, the rafale is a beauty!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q524zwlvqc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-1ZMgn4eMs

Typhoon :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IksiXDGX ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPG6ll86 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ViI5qWE ... re=related

Gripen :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw89_d40 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXRge60c ... re=related

go post 1150 on this thread for the link stating a rafale lead in switzerland :
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... 99&page=39

Kovy · Post by **Kovy** » 25 Nov 2011 05:28

Septimus P. wrote: Furthermore, Raffy has had a crash due to pilot disorientation caused due to g-loc. EF on the other hand has better g-suits which allow the pilot to pull 9 G turns for extended periods without g-loc. This could be life saver while dodging a missile. While pulling high G turns in the raffy, the pilot is more likely crash due to over G and g-loc caused by extended high speed and high g turns. EF pilot on the other hand will have better energy and can pull high g turns for longer durations.

Sorry, but the Rafale B316 didn't crash because of a G-lock.

The report is very clear about that :

At 05:24 pm, after 19 minutes of combat, the Rafale B316 hit the ground killing its pilot.
The crash was due to a spatial disorientation of the pilot who had deactivated 2 altitude warning/safety systems, increasing the time to recover his altitude reference after several high G turns in poor visibility conditions (it was at night and the weather was bad).

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Nov 2011 07:25

arthuro wrote:
I thought there was only one article (Deccan Chronicle) that claimed that. And its accuracy was questionable since it also put the number of technical parameters evaluated at 630.
There was at least two other articles including the very reliable "la tribune" and the Deccan article quoted an indian officer. The little inaccuracy about the number of technical point is no big deal as long as the main idea was understood from the IAF officer.

What sources do you think the La Tribune has in the IAF or MoD? I'm betting they got their brief from Dassault or the AdA. At least the Sunday Telegraph article that said the EF came out on top of the pile, was credited to Praveen Swami, an Indian journalist with The Hindu.

An IAF officer could have been anyone ... retired or serving, related or completed unrelated to the evaluation team. And that is why the emphasis on accuracy matters.

Now if you look at the dutch evaluation and even very recently the swiss evaluation the rafale came on top against the typhoon with similar standard than the one proposed for the IAF. It is the most recent and configuration are very close if not identical than for the IAF.

The swiss evaluation was very professional and transparent and despite that the main emphasis was on Air to Air performance the rafale won !!! From all known technical competitions the swiss on is probably the most relevant to benchmark the rafale and the typhoon.

I'll wait for the official results rather buying that line. Until you know the specifics of those competitions, there's no point. It would be akin to me suggesting that Rafale offered Switzerland and Netherlands bad value for money, and offer up the UAE's very public repudiation of the French terms as evidence.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 25 Nov 2011 11:41

Unfortunately for you the result of the dutch evaluation are official and released and the rafale is quite ahead the typoon as you can see :

n°1

http://www.dedefensa.org/article.php?art_id=84

"A surprising and important detail had been made public: the technological and operational evaluation by the RNAF of the three candidates. According to the RNAF criteria, the JSF had been graded 6.97; the Rafale, 6.95; and the Eurofighter Typhoon, 5.85. "

n°2

http://bruxelles2.over-blog.com/article-22711204.html

As for the swiss technical evaluation results (no other parameters) many swiss officers spoke to the press and all swiss main newspapers reported that the rafale outdid the typhoon in the technical evaluation. Even foreign specialized press like Janes reported it directly from swiss officers close to the competition. If you take time to read and translate when necessary the sources above in my previous post (13 sources in total) you will see that some had access to pretty interesting details. So it will be hard to ignore these sources unless you want to live in delusion.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Nov 2011 13:27

arthuro wrote:Unfortunately for you the result of the dutch evaluation are official and released and the rafale is quite ahead the typoon as you can see :

http://www.dedefensa.org/article.php?art_id=84

"A surprising and important detail had been made public: the technological and operational evaluation by the RNAF of the three candidates. According to the RNAF criteria, the JSF had been graded 6.97; the Rafale, 6.95; and the Eurofighter Typhoon, 5.85. "

Rafales at par with the F-35. Yeahhh.... ookay.

As for the swiss technical evaluation results (no other parameters) many swiss officers spoke to the press and all swiss main newspapers reported that the rafale outdid the typhoon in the technical evaluation. Even foreign specialized press like Janes reported it directly from swiss officers close to the competition. If you take time to read and translate when necessary the sources above in my previous post (13 sources in total) you will see that some had access to pretty interesting details. So it will be hard to ignore these sources unless you want to live in delusion.

I think I'll stick with my delusions. I suppose that's one thing I have in common with Sheikh Mohammed Bin Zayed and the Brazilian Air Force.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Nov 2011 13:34

Viv S wrote:quote="arthuro"]Unfortunately for you the result of the dutch evaluation are official and released and the rafale is quite ahead the typoon as you can see :

http://www.dedefensa.org/article.php?art_id=84

"A surprising and important detail had been made public: the technological and operational evaluation by the RNAF of the three candidates. According to the RNAF criteria, the JSF had been graded 6.97; the Rafale, 6.95; and the Eurofighter Typhoon, 5.85. "quote]

Rafales at par with the F-35. Yeahhh.... ookay.

As for the swiss technical evaluation results (no other parameters) many swiss officers spoke to the press and all swiss main newspapers reported that the rafale outdid the typhoon in the technical evaluation. Even foreign specialized press like Janes reported it directly from swiss officers close to the competition. If you take time to read and translate when necessary the sources above in my previous post (13 sources in total) you will see that some had access to pretty interesting details. So it will be hard to ignore these sources unless you want to live in delusion.
I think I'll stick with my delusions. I suppose that's one thing I have in common with Sheikh Mohammed Bin Zayed and the Brazilian Air Force.

I think depends on how you grade an aircraft, For Stealth Give JSF a 0, for Bomb payload of 9.5 tonnes give a 10 to Rafale, that you have JSF=Rafale.

koti · Post by **koti** » 25 Nov 2011 13:50

Viv S wrote:
arthuro wrote: Rafales at par with the F-35. Yeahhh.... ookay.

Aditya saab and Viv saab, you missed an important point there.

It is that Rafale was given 6.95 and EF 5.85.
JSF at 6.97 may raise few eyebrows but ignoring the 5th gen advantages JSF has, both EF and Rafale should have a difference in their capability.

But unless you claim the entire rating to be a farce(like most others here are being attributed as), it is one more study that put Rafale ahead of EF.

Thnx.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Nov 2011 14:51

koti wrote:Aditya saab and Viv saab, you missed an important point there.

It is that Rafale was given 6.95 and EF 5.85.
JSF at 6.97 may raise few eyebrows but ignoring the 5th gen advantages JSF has, both EF and Rafale should have a difference in their capability.

Do you think the Rafale is at par with the F-35? After all if we accept the EF's kinematic and radar advantages as merely good PR and insist that the quality of the MMI and EW systems on the Rafale that is the real deal... well the F-35 thumps it thoroughly in that regard. At the same time giving an option of real first day stealth strikes against enemy C4I nodes, airbases and radar installations, not just 'discrete' operations with a dirty load. How do you even put a decimal value on that (given that only the F-22 and PAK-FA will offer anything similar)?

But unless you claim the entire rating to be a farce(like most others here are being attributed as), it is one more study that put Rafale ahead of EF.

That's why I didn't bring up the Sunday Telegraph article or the DERA study or the Rafales failures in Morocco or UAE, except in response to similar off-the-trail claims. Its because a sense of perspective has to be maintained. Sure you can buy the line that the opinion/word of the Dassault fellows or AdA fellows is gold because they've staked their reputation with it, but its like saying 'Vote for Obama. He'll be a great president. He stakes his reputation on that'.

koti · Post by **koti** » 25 Nov 2011 15:22

Viv S wrote:
koti wrote:Aditya saab and Viv saab, you missed an important point there.

It is that Rafale was given 6.95 and EF 5.85.
JSF at 6.97 may raise few eyebrows but ignoring the 5th gen advantages JSF has, both EF and Rafale should have a difference in their capability.

Do you think the Rafale is at par with the F-35? After all if we accept the EF's kinematic and radar advantages as merely good PR and insist that the quality of the MMI and EW systems on the Rafale that is the real deal... well the F-35 thumps it thoroughly in that regard. At the same time giving an option of real first day stealth strikes against enemy C4I nodes, airbases and radar installations, not just 'discrete' operations with a dirty load. How do you even put a decimal value on that (given that only the F-22 and PAK-FA will offer anything similar)?

I will rephrase. Let us assume F35 is not in the picture. It being on par or above it is a different issue.
It is that Rafale was given 6.95 and EF 5.85.(Rafa has 20% more points then EF)

None are discounting the Captor or EF's engines. But the real deal is that EF is ineffective in using its engines to carry a better load and is not doing good on the Strike range despite being heavier. Its Captor is not helping it in its A2G regime either.

All this is not absolute. It is just that Rafale is doing these better.
If we wanted super maneuverability we wouldn't have disqualified Mig35 and if wanted super AESA we wouldn't have disqualified SH.
It is the combination of these is what we should look into.

I think it is high time we stop comparing EF against Rafale but see which of these does the things better for us.

We need MMRCA to be very good at A2G, better then say MKI to justify its price. We need them capable of standing tall against MKK and J20.
Now we need to know which of the two platforms does the above requirements better.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 25 Nov 2011 16:44

One thing that must be noted is that if airforces requirement are all different rafale always came on top of those technical evalautions (2nd to F35 in the dutch one )and always deemed superior to the typhoon.

just to bring another "dutch evaluation" source here is Dassault CEO's comment* :

The Typhoon, whose development also started in 1998, was fielded as an air defence aircraft in December 2005. This fighter will not have a true omnirole version (enabling, for instance, to lift and fire a cruise-missile) before the next decade.
Ever since the beginning of the decade, the Rafale has always been deemed superior to the Eurofighter« Typhoon » by the countries concerned (i.e. the Netherlands, South Korea and Singapore), whenever it has been in competition (or has been submitted to comparative evaluations) with this rival. In the Netherlands, for instance, the Rafale’s score differed by a scarce 2% from that of a « paper JSF »[/u]. A number of elements enables us to tackle the future with confidence, such as the imminent fielding, in the Air Force, of Rafale upgraded to F2 omnirole standard, the fact that a number of foreign experts recognize that the Rafale offer is superior to the Typhoon offer, and the doubts remaining about the F-35/JSF programme.

*it is always better to have sources of different origin and cross check them. You can see that Dassault's CEO is perfectly consistent with the dutch results that were made official which give him even more credibility on other competition.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 25 Nov 2011 16:55

Another article about rafale capabilities being evaluated by a foreign air force :

The cost of the advance
Claudio Dantas Smith and Octavio Costa

It takes the government to decide which game will equip the Air Force delays plans for defense of the country and threatens the credibility of the negotiations with the three finalists

FIGHTING Factory Dassault: 36 fighters would cost $ 10 billion

The competition for the purchase of 36 fighter jets by the FAB, estimated at $ 10 billion, seems an endless novel. In the latest chapter, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim announced further postponement in the selection of fighters, this time to January 2010. It said the reasons for and command of the FAB remain silent so as not to break the hierarchy. The cost of this uncertainty is enormous, because it affects not only the credibility of the negotiations and delay the defense plans of the country, which sees its airspace vulnerable. "You can not stay in this litany. Whether the political criterion, either by coach, you need to resolve them, "said retired Colonel Geraldo Cavagnari, the Center for Strategic Studies at Unicamp. He explains that, once decided to purchase, will run six months until the contract is signed. For the analyst of international security Gunther Rudzītis is necessary to prevent a repeat of the failure of the FX program, held over the last year of the Cardoso government, and finally canceled in 2003. Brazil is in urgent need of a generation of fighter aircraft to ensure the safety of the heavens and their wealth in the territorial sea. ISTOÉ obtained confidential details of the offers of the finalists: the French Rafale from Dassault, the American F-18 Super Hornet, Boeing, and the Swedish Gripen NG, the Saab.

The report shows the FAB strengths and weaknesses of each plane using a color code (blue, yellow and red) instead of notes.

Of the three, the French jet introduced technology package more comprehensive and Swedish appears at first sight, had the best price. Your unit value, without the package of armaments and maintenance costs, is U.S. $ 50 million. It would be a good deal, not for the Gripen NG only one project in development. This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. "You can not buy what is on the drawing board," warns Cavagnari. In fact, the historical records of the airline industry in the world attest to the instability of estimates on a plane is not yet operational. The F-18 Super Hornet, for example, showed average growth of 100% between the amount originally planned pelosfabricantes and the final cost of the project, which reached U.S. $ 9.5 billion.

SHADOWS The French Rafale is a fighter with more ability to remain invisible to enemy radar

Nevertheless, the U.S. fighter is offered today at a stable price of $ 55 million. In the case of the Rafale, to be fully operational, it took 7.5 billion euros (U.S. $ 10.9 billion), a difference of 50% over the initial estimate. Your unit price without arms and support was 94 million euros ($ 136 million) when he began to be sold, but then fell to 54 million euros ($ 78 million). This is the value offered to Brazil in the last proposal and even practiced by Dassault with the French government. Besides the price issue, raised by President Lula during the visit of French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy ABrasilia in September, is at stake in the term. According Cavagnari, the defense sector is in the process of dismantling advanced, which began in 1995. "We have immediate needs of air power that must be addressed," he explains. Then there is another problem. FAB to receive the first aircraft in 2014. Who guarantees to deliver the request in a timely manner? Dassault is in the production line of Rafale heated by new orders from the French government, which gives security to meet the deadlines. The Boeingtradição punctuality in sales of F-18. Already a Saab should take eight years to make their hunting operation. For example, the radar that will equip the Gripen began to be developed this year alone.

"To have an idea, Selex develops radar Caesar for the Typhoon fighter for five years and forecast to be ready is 2016. Now they say they can develop a similar radar, the Raven, to equip the Gripen NG, 2011. I find it unlikely, "said the expert Pedro Paulo Rezende. Another important point in the analysis of FAB is the cost of flight-hours. An airplane that consumes too much is not feasible in the long term. The time of flight of the F-18 is $ 11 thousand, while that of the Rafale is U.S. $ 14 mil. Since the Gripen, according to Saab, it would be $ 4 mil. But the Technical Committee of the FX-2 (Copac), from calculations based on data extrapolated maintenance Gripen C / D (prior to version NG), found a very different value: U.S. $ 8 mil. Similarly, Norway and the Netherlands, to assess the Swedish hunting, came to U.S. $ 10 mil. The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. The F-18 won blue for that matter, but reddened under "radar signature", which means tracking by enemy radar. The Rafale, according to official figures, the game is more "invisible" among competitors.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Nov 2011 17:06

koti wrote:I will rephrase. Let us assume F35 is not in the picture. It being on par or above it is a different issue.
It is that Rafale was given 6.95 and EF 5.85.

Can you pick and choose the facts you like?

None are discounting the Captor or EF's engines. But the real deal is that EF is ineffective in using its engines to carry a better load and is not doing good on the Strike range despite being heavier.

Huh? The Rafale's greater range is because of its two extra wetpoints not because its engines are more efficient. And it would make a difference only when a heavy stores like cruise missiles have to be carried at the same time as fuel tanks. At 5tons, the EF's internal fuel is far from limited. The RAF and Luftwaffe intend to solve that wet-point issue through CFTs.

Its Captor is not helping it in its A2G regime either.

Of course it does - all air to ground modes GMTT/GMTI, SAR, ISAR, etc will function with reduced resolution and range limitations.

All this is not absolute. It is just that Rafale is doing these better.

It claims to be doing these things better. The stats don't seem to bear that out. Its USP is still low to mid altitude and speed combat and carrier operations.

If we wanted super maneuverability we wouldn't have disqualified Mig35 and if wanted super AESA we wouldn't have disqualified SH.
It is the combination of these is what we should look into.

You want a combination of 'super' agility and 'super' AESA. Solution: EF.

I think it is high time we stop comparing EF against Rafale but see which of these does the things better for us.

Sure. What does our scenario look like. 500+ Flankers and J-10s to the north. Could be 750+ before the first MRCA rolls out off HAL's production line. And expect them to be equipped with AESAs and advanced PL-12 variants.

We need MMRCA to be very good at A2G, better then say MKI to justify its price. We need them capable of standing tall against MKK and J20.
Now we need to know which of the two platforms does the above requirements better.

If we're talking platforms the EF clearly comes out ahead. You can upgrade the platform for improved air to ground performance with better EW, ESM systems and a greater variety of munitions. You can't alter the airframe to make it more suitable for high speed high altitude BVR engagements. Or (to be fair) for carrier operations.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Nov 2011 17:10

arthuro wrote:just to bring another "dutch evaluation" source here is Dassault CEO's comment* :

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 25 Nov 2011 17:12

oups I hit a nerve

You can argue for ages about which aircraft is better according to your personnal opinion. But when professionals evaluate both aircrafts the answer is clear : rafale is better than the typhoon. All the rest are drops falling in the internet ocean.

Even when an airforce (swiss) put an emphasis on AtA the Typhoon lose to the rafale in technical evaluations...