India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

[Viv S]

oups I hit a nerve

Its frustrating to explain that you don't buy a Sony Television, because the catchy advertisement said it was the best on the market. Dassault's word is gospel for you but a forum of other nationals (particularly customers) may be less likely to accept that, just because a sterling reputation may be besmirched if less than true.

[member_20453]

well cant take the word of Dassault CEO, he for one hasn't been able to deliver a single xport order for the Rafale. So he for one isn't a good source. Coming to Swiss evals, the aircraft evaluated were Rafale F-3 and Ef tranche 2, big difference in capability. Rafale's AESA was demonstrated, EF didnt have it. Ef still has limited air to ground ability, Rafale has good air to ground capability. EF still has to prove quite a lot in air to ground. The dutch eval seems foolish since, they have never flown the F-35. Their placement of rafale right next to F-35 seems to suggest that just a little too much weed got into the bong. Singapore well they clearly went for the F-15, simply because it made better sense, no one wants to risk being the only customer for the Raffy.

Being a top contender isn't enough, such large purchases always have a strategic backdrop and the French add little strategic value to most countries seeking to buy from them. Besides a good product must always be backed up by good business sense. Sadly they'll still be a top contender and still loose in India. EF simply has a lot more bang for the buck. Pilots are safer, better upgrade potential, codevelopement and a massive puch for local industry.

[arthuro]

It's frustrating to explain you that "cross checking" your sources is a perfectly valide exercise. You can cross check Dassault CEO's statement with official RNAF figures or with the Korean press.

[Viv S]

It's frustrating to explain you that "cross checking" your sources is a perfectly valide exercise. You can cross check Dassault CEO's statement with official RNAF figures or with the Korean press.

Let me simplify it. You cross check sources. Dassault CEO's opinion is not a source. If the F-22 was available with a 2 for 1 offer in a going-out-of-business sale, he'd still be advising the IAF to buy Rafales.

[Viv S]

You can argue for ages about which aircraft is better according to your personnal opinion. But when professionals evaluate both aircrafts the answer is clear : rafale is better than the typhoon. All the rest are drops falling in the internet ocean.

Ah.. okay then. BTW why do the professionals in the FAB want the Gripen instead? And why have negotiations between Dassault and UAE broken after professionals evaluated the aircraft, and why did they invite the Eurofighter for what was practically a done deal? And I understand the Eurofighter losing out to the Rafale in professional evaluations done in Singapore and South Korea, but how did the Rafale lose to the F-15E? After all the F-15E wasn't an air superiority fighter with air to ground capability added as an afterthought, unlike the Rafale that was designed to be not only multi role but swing role, omni role and kathi role as well.

[member_20453]

Yup the BAF's first choice is the Griepn NG, followed by the SH and lastly unsurprisingly Rafale. coming to crashes, incase of spatial disorientation or Gloc , EF pilot can simply hit a button and the aircraft levels itself thus preventing a crash. Furthermore, the G-suit on Ef allows for suatined high G turns without g-loc

[member_20453]

Rafale has a small lead in Swiss but they'll probably end up buying the EF, EF simply has a to make a good commercial offer. We can be sure that Dassault will mess this up too.

[arthuro]

Sorry guys but the Rafale has also the technical lead in the Brazilian evaluation. Those rumor were clearly dislaimed by the Brazilian air force :

Board wants to hear Saito confirm that FAB prefer Rafale

To the Minister Nelson Jobim, the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) prefer to buy French Rafale fighters to refit the force. The statement was made on Wednesday in the House of Representatives.


Minister Nelson Jobim said in open court in the Foreign Relations Committee that the Air Force commander, Brigadier Juniti Saito, showed a preference for the Rafale, despite its higher cost. "He said that the technical aspects, all three proposals meet, but the Air Force Command believes that the Rafale fighter is what most corresponds to National Defense Strategy, despite the costs," Jobim said, as matter of O Globo.

The statement Jobim contradicts previous information where the French fighter had been considered the worst choice among the three models in contention: the Gripen, the Rafale and F18.

To clarify, the Commission on Science and Technology of the House should invite Brigadier Juniti Saito, commander of the FAB, to explain both the criteria for evaluation of aircraft as the preference of the FAB.

http://www.emtemporeal.com.br/index.asp ... icia=94460

04/05/2010
Jobim says he will send the report about fighters to Lula next week

RIO DE JANEIRO (*******) - After repeated delays, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said on Tuesday it intends to submit next week to President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva the technical report on the acquisition of fighter jets to fleet renewal Brazilian Air Force (FAB).
[...]
"I'm finishing this report. It's tricky. I hope to finish next week the phase of the explanatory memorandum to send to the president," Jobim told reporters after participating in a exchange of generals in the Eastern Military Command in Rio de Janeiro.

Jobim acknowledged that the process of choosing the fighters are late. "I've traveled a lot. It's true," added the minister, who believes that the procedure of choice for Lula will take place later in the first half-year.

Recently, Jobim said that the FAB opted for the French fighter jets after a technical analysis of the aircraft.Asked about the choice on Tuesday, the minister evaded. "live life one day at a time" he said

So yes the rafale always came on top of every technical evaluation (second after F35 in the dutch one) and was always deemed superior to the typhoon...!

[arthuro]

again in Brasil

Jobim says that decision on fighters should be taken this semester
Noticias Terras , May 28


Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said on Friday he is confident that the decision on the bids for the purchase of 36 fighters, with competing companies from France, United States and Sweden will be taken "before the end of the first semester."

He explained that the matter is in the hands of the National Defense Council, which brings together various ministries, and shall prepare a report which will be discussed later with President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, who will make the final decision.

According to a study prepared by the Air Force, the favorites to win the contest are the Rafale fighter-bombers of the French company Dassault , which compete with the F/A-18 Super Hornet, the American Boeing and Gripen NG, the Swedish Saab

The minister said he is confident that the process will be concluded before the end of next month.He denied that the campaign climate in the country could delay the decision. According to Jobim, "National Defense is not designed by political comings and goings " but for "strategic needs".

The minister recalled, moreover, that the renewal of the fleet of fighter-bomber is a subject that began to be discussed in 1995 and has since been suspended for different reasons. However, Jobim said that this time the process moves forward steadily and "will be completed."

http://noticias.terra.com.br/brasil/not ... estre.html

Jobim says it is the final phase for the report on fighters
Estadao , may 28


Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said that the final stage of drafting the explanatory memorandum that will go to President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, pointing to the model of the fighter who will best meet in Brazil within the Strategy National Defense. The preference is for the French Rafale fighter.

The defense minister said that Lula "want to make the decision" still in its mandate. Except that the delay in presentation of the Jobim 's explanatory memorandum and subsequent convening of the National Defense Council, which will assess and approve the purchase, is worrying the airmen, who fear the proximity of the elections and the natural difficulties that arise in this period, for concluding negotiations and closing contracts the size of the FX-2, which can exceed U.S. $ 6 billion.

[...]

Asked if the subject was not experiencing many delays and could be hurt by the arrival of the [World]Cup and the elections, the Minister Jobim joked: "Cup and election has nothing to do with the purchase of aircraft. To my knowledge plane does not play football ". "the issue is the need." And said: "We must remember that the defense moves these political issues. To emphasize that the President wants to make the decision even in his government, Minister Jobim said that "the whole problem is that we begin to have a gap in air defense in 2015 and we need to forwarding this issue and do not have much time to play with it.

According to Jobim, "President Lula only take a decision after a demonstration of the Defense Council." For him, "before taking any decision.". He acknowledged that the process has dragged on since 1995, but expects to close the matter."It will take time to finish. But, as we are dealing with a purchase that relates to a period of 20 years, we can not pretend to be resolved in one week, one day."

Jobim also noted that even after a decision by the president, with the choice of model, also will begin a "long process of negotiation of commercial and financial" with the chosen one.

http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/naci ... 8322,0.htm

[arthuro]

And again :

Defense choose the Rafale and final decision will belong to the president
Administratores.com.br, June 23


After so many speculations, the Ministry of the Defense decided to choose the fighter Rafale, of French fabrication, to integrate the Brazilian Air Defense

The fact of the Ministry of the Defense of having opted for the Rafale doesn´t mean that the process is ended or that it will be confirmed by President LulaThere is an election in the near horizon and wouldn´t be any surprise if the decision was left for the next administration.
The choice was technical and in spite of the French airplane to be the most expensive between the three finalists, the government believes to be able to compensate it in the context of the strategic alliance with France.
Embraer also wins, and very much.If the Gripen was elected, Embraer hardly would participate of the project. With the Rafale, it will be leading the process.
The enterprise also involves the development and the commercialization of the freighter KC-390 in the business.
The United States couldn’t, legally, make a deal of purchase of the Super Tucano in exchange for the sale of the F-18, as it was speculated recently.

Jobim asked changes because he does not accept the purchase of a “ready-made” airplane, as he said several times in public audiences carried out in the Congress.
He wants the industrialization of the Defense and the domain of the technology by Brazil.And he believes that it will be possible with the election of the Rafale.

http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/index ... otimpol#72

Jobim prepares announcement for Rafale
Correio Braziliense , August 3


Minister shall confirm within days that the French plane was recommended to Lula

Since July 15 - one day after the Bastille national day - the French celebrate by advance the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters for the Air Force (FAB), supposedly ratified by President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva [didn't know...]. The Ministry of Defence told that the exhibition of technical and political reasons by Minister Nelson Jobim must leave in coming days. The report, described early [translation unsure] in late June by the Correio and the Inforel website (specializing in international news), summarized in 40 pages more than 20,000 pages of documents generated by the FAB and the Navy about the purchase of fighter planes. With the Rafale, the French Dassault lead the preference on the F/A-18 Super Hornet, the American Boeing and Gripen NG, the Swedish Saab, after a change based on the new National Defense Strategy (END), which changed the weights of the evaluation and gave more value to technology transfer, reducing the importance of acquisition costs and maintenance of the aircraft. There are also rumors that Lula would be studying the report since May and June.

"I'm waiting quietly and serenely,an announcement or statement by President Lula planned for the month of July," said French Defence Minister, Herve Morin, to LCI television, in the middle of last month. [...]

Luis Alexander Fuccille, a Facamp researcher, a researcher at the Center for Strategic Studies at Unicamp, considers the confirmation of the Rafale would be a good decision. "This project has been delayed for a long time since the government of President Fernando Henrique, who left it for Lula, and we are at the end of Lula's government without any decision about a project that is 'for yesterday' - important for the defense of our independence and national sovereignty, and especially for this major role that Brazil seeks in the international arena, "says Luis Alexander. "My only problem was perhaps related to the desirability of such an important decision with less than six months to the end of the mandate", says the researcher [...]

http://www.correiobraziliense.com.br/ap ... FALE.shtml

Sarkozy reinforces the Rafale lobby
Correio Braziliense via Notimp, nov 13

[...]
Sources from the Planalto confirm that before 31 December will be announced the winner of competition opened with the government of Fernando Henrique Cardoso
Prior, Lula intends to consult once again the defense minister, Nelson Jobim, and the elected president Rousseff. Jobim, who met yesterday in Brasilia the Commander of the Air Force Juniti Saito, delivered to the president the technical memorandum of the ministry, pointing the French fighter as the best option.
[...]
The climate [of the meeting] between Lula and Sarkozy was a farewell between good friends. The French president went on to say that his colleague should not leave the international scene, and suggested that Lula will continue acting in the G-20. There are speculations that the Brazilian president may take the head of the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) in Rome.
[...]

[member_20453]

Again the above statements confirm that the brazilian deal has been tainted. First comes the news of BAF's preference for Gripen NG closely followed by the SH. Then came the wikileak excerpts that had a BAF top commander claiming 'technically SH is the superior aircraft'
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2637776/posts
and the Defence minister claims Rafale, clearly shows the BAF's desires have been shitted upon by Brazilian politics. It is no secret. The last govt in Brazil wanted to go to great lengths to get the deal to Rafale but by doing soo they pissed off many quarters.

The new govt. has asked Boeng to offer more TOT and guarantees. Rafale in compeititons seems to be among top contenders then ends up not being sold. Obviously, the business behind the aircraft sucks. Rafale will end up loosing in Brazil too, They had a chance a while back, now a werll timed US offer of TOT and gurantees will lands the SH it's second export contract while the french will left scrambling to sell.

[arthuro]

Well technically the rafale won all its technical evelauations exepct the dutch one where it was close behind the F35 but far ahead the Typhoon.

Clearly politics (Korea, singapore) played a role in favor of a US solution.
Price was also an issue for Singapore and recently the UAE.
Lack of coordination between the industry and memeber of the french government accounted for a loss in Marroco and the UAE.

Brazil is still going for the rafale according to recent brazilian president Dilma Rousssef but they lack the money for the moment.

In switzerland the rafale is the clear winner of the technical evaluation and its price is in between the Typhoon and the gripen and it fits the swiss budget unlike the typhoon.

If you look the Typhoon export nothing to be proud about : Austria and Saudi Arabia were state to state deals both heavily tainted with corruption with even jail sentences for some in austria.

[member_20453]

as long it doesnt have a single export order, its still the looser. If a win in technical evals doesn't result in an order, it's still a loss. And if there is no order, the 'suppossed' superiority in technical evals hold no ground.

For a company well thru nook or crook they find orders, EF had the same in Saudi and Austria. Sad thing is the french haven't even been able to corrupt their way into an order.

[arthuro]

We can now add another swiss source about the technical evaluation (rafale vs typhoon vs gripen)
Although it is the first time I read that it is the most expensive.

Le Temps, Nov 25

The Rafale

Built by the French Dassault, this jet is definitely the most capable aircraft. It is also the most expensive. Its target price is around 150 million euros [!!?]. But one must put this price into perspective The French offer offset transactions with Swiss small businesses for some 6 billion Swiss francs, a participation in research and development with the French aircraft industry. France provides also supersonic flight areas less than thirty minutes from Payerne, the opening of French bases, exchange and training of technicians and participation in development. Commissioned in 2005, the Rafale has not yet been sold abroad. But it demonstrated its abilities by supporting an important part of the operations during the conflict in Libya. It is the preferred aircraft of the Swiss pilots.

http://www.letemps.ch/Page/SysConfig/We ... 7A6D3166F6

[Taygibay]

Guys, did you all miss the red highlight in Arthuro's post or what?
It says paper plane
Meaning that the then JSF as promised was not up to par?
That would explain the slightish overhead. It may change.
( Actually, in the interest of the US govt and forces, it better )

Viv, the source is Folha and was never publicly acknowledged :

An Air Force report presented to Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) had presented the best overall project among the three finalists, Folha de Sao Paulo newspaper reported on Tuesday.

I repeat that if they become known, the IAF's quantified 600+ points
of testing will likely become the best evaluation results available.


Viv, the following is more relevant :
About 1390 km combat radius for the Typhoon in CAP mission config
and 1850 km for the Rafale.
But if you think of it, bigger engines are "thirstier"; you can't have it both
ways ( more thrust/faster climb vs range ) unless you carry more of it.
Rafale has .80 Kg/daN.h on military power to .83 for EF. and is lighter
to begin with.
Also, EFTs use 50% of their fuel to carry it.

It is that Rafale was given 6.95 and EF 5.85.(Rafa has 20% more points then EF)

However, the numbers extracted by Arthuro are misleading inasmuch as
one should compare the T3 to F3 results.
Look at the provided graph and the Rafale is still on top albeit by a much
narrower margin of about 6.88 EF to 6.95 Raffy
( Although T3A+ around 2018 is more accurate by now too; see below. )

Septimus, the EF in the Swiss evaluation was the same sent to India?
(i.e. with CEASAR AESA demo ) The Gripen is the one that did not.
You're still right that it will have to be redone when Captor-E comes though.
http://www.eurofighter.com/media/news0/ ... ghter.html
The rest of your post was still so-so and highly speculative stuff.
Do not link sales and value again mate : less Rolls-Royce Phantoms were sold
than either VW Beetles and Citroën 2CV yet the RR is way better?

Also, I repeat that you may be lured by the commercial ads from
Eurofighter as here for Switzerland :

radar à balayage électronique actif en projet pour la Tranche 3A

Transl. : Active electronic radar projected for Tranche 3A ( signed as below )
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/369/
which simply is not true.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... rs-348142/

There, precision you know helps tremenduously

Good day all, Tay.

Additional reading of interest :
http://www.ausairpower.net/Analysis-Typhoon.html

[member_20453]

well Tay sahab, speaking of RR phantoms, well I can pretty much guarantee that any one who ever could afford to get a test drive of the Phantom was sold, almost everyone who ever had the money and option to check it out before ordering would have ordered it. In such a case, RR being such an expensive beast is nothing like the Raffy in terms of sales, RR would have managed to get a sale from almost every prospective buyer. In RR's case every prospective buyer who comes to buy will buy simply because the car was already sold as soon as they saw the thing, it was just a matter of arranging for the finances. The Phantom is like the Raptor, many would buy it right away if it was available, there would hardly be anyone who wouldn't buy after testing it. With Raffy's history of sales screw ups, i wouldn't be surprised if it lost in Swiss as well.

[arthuro]

It is true that despite being an exellent aircraft technically speaking (in comprative evaluations) Dassault's ability to lose deal even when they are supposed to be won (Morroco or UAE) is not reassuring.

As far as the swiss evaluation is concerned have a look here to see what are the strenghts and weaknesses of each contender to win the deal (post n°2635 & n°2636)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ws/page176

[arunsrinivasan]

I think the key I hope the MoD will keep this in mind is in addition to the technical evaluation & the life cycle cost, how much bargaining power will the Supplier have in negotiating the costs at the time of the MLU. I dont want to see another M2K upgrade fiasco happen ... this is what makes me wary of Dassault. The recent feedback from UAE just confirms my worst fears about Dassult's commercial tactics.

Does the MMRCA take into account the MLU commercials also? Or will the ToT package take care of this risk?

[arthuro]

Rafale sensors :
(it is bigger if you watch it directly on you tube)

[Taygibay]

I was only defending the plane's intrinsic value, Septimus.
Otherwise agreed to Arthuro & you about "screw-ups". ( Sorry! )
Switzerland should pass but the rest will require a change.

The present winner in this situation remains the IAF/MoD-I/GoI.
They have all the bargaining tools they need

[Viv S]

We can now add another swiss source about the technical evaluation (rafale vs typhoon vs gripen)
Although it is the first time I read that it is the most expensive.

Le Temps, Nov 25

The Rafale

Built by the French Dassault, this jet is definitely the most capable aircraft. It is also the most expensive. Its target price is around 150 million euros [!!?]. But one must put this price into perspective The French offer offset transactions with Swiss small businesses for some 6 billion Swiss francs, a participation in research and development with the French aircraft industry. France provides also supersonic flight areas less than thirty minutes from Payerne, the opening of French bases, exchange and training of technicians and participation in development. Commissioned in 2005, the Rafale has not yet been sold abroad. But it demonstrated its abilities by supporting an important part of the operations during the conflict in Libya. It is the preferred aircraft of the Swiss pilots.

http://www.letemps.ch/Page/SysConfig/We ... 7A6D3166F6

You mean the Swiss evaluation concluded that the Rafale was more expensive than the Eurofighter






On a more serious note, whichever way the MRCA turns out, at least we got many hours of spirited, enjoyable (though at times acrimonious) debate out of it.

[Taygibay]

Hey, Viv_S!

http://www.lematin.ch/%5Bprimary-termpa ... 2011-11-08

Google trans this, as bad a source as yours if not worse giving :
Rafale 150 million $
EF 100 million $
Gripen 40-60 million $


Don't trust them journos, mate!
For or against

If that was real, we got the source of all the sales problems

Good evening all, Tay.

[SaiK]

so, are you guys really ready now to present a side by side comparison chart of Rf and Ef, [not any link from external site, but out of your analysis]?

If you do not like side by side, you could probably say the advantages and disadvantages of one over the other separately.

Please consider usability and upgrade aspects along with your thoughts.

thanks /objective: summarizing

[member_20453]

I was only defending the plane's intrinsic value, Septimus.
Otherwise agreed to Arthuro & you about "screw-ups". ( Sorry! )
Switzerland should pass but the rest will require a change.

The present winner in this situation remains the IAF/MoD-I/GoI.
They have all the bargaining tools they need

Tay sahab, don't have to defend it's intrinsic value.. it defends itself. Fact is Rafale is one of the finest birds ever made.. its' really well designed and has ample everything, energy, beauty and lethality. The only disadvantage really is the puny nose and external probe. In every other area, it is an bird that can hold its own, hit targets very deep and scoot. What really saddens me is that such a wonderful aircraft has such a terrible business back end. Matter of fact I feel sad that marketing and sales of such a good bird has been left in the hands of incompetant people. I think they need to outsource their sales to India

[Taygibay]

Here gang is a better source after that joke :
L’avion le moins cher reste le Gripen a ... les deux.

http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/201 ... ssion.html

TT"The least expansive AC remains the Gripen with a bid valued at 3 Billion Euros,
while the Eurofighter is last at about 4 billion. The Rafale itself comes in between."

They give serious attention to their reporting and the links at the end to the bidders.



You know what Septimus, that is why I mentioned the Brazilian deal to outsource for
South America to Viv_S. India is almost as natural a partner, with its own economic
zone. Think selling to your numerous neighbors like Viet-Nam for instance?
Was that the line at Dassault/French Govt as we know was done by Eurofighter?
If so, IMHO, Rafale already won, if so ...


Good night good people, Tay.

[arthuro]

You mean the Swiss evaluation concluded that the Rafale was more expensive than the Eurofighter

in fact not exactly. Olybrius on pm.net ask the journalist about those price quotations and he admit they are just indicative as the detail of the package is not known. Most sources as Tangybay said tell 3 billions SF for the gripen, 4 billlions for the typhoon and the rafale in between the two.

here is the answer of the journalist :

There is great confusion on prices in the public and even on some supposedly specialized sites [he's talking of Avianews]. The unit target price I mentioned is an order of magnitude, it does not mean much and it should not be taken into account because each country buys products in various versions and with various weapons and radar - the weapons guidance systems are incredibly expensive -same with pilot training, technical supervision, participation in development, etc.. Then there are great bargains functions of the number of aircrafts or market conditions, etc.. When we talk about 3-4 billion, a figure that I give in my article, this is a budget "all inclusive" estimated in September with the Helvetic specification . Since then, manufacturers have made new offers, and as I mentioned, the prices announced for the Gripen would be half the original price. The surprises would come later with maintenance and especially development.

from here :
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ws/page176

Here are some of the sources indicating a clear rafale lead for the technical evaluation in switzerland :

http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/201 ... avori.html
http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard/Ei ... y/19950976
http://ing.dk/artikel/122131-fransk-kam ... -i-schweiz
http://www.aeroplans.fr/Aviation-milita ... afale.html
http://www.lepost.fr/article/2010/06/14 ... afale.html
http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard/Po ... ssion.html
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... 19&page=18 (post 511 & 513)
http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/et ... 383#reagir
http://www.letemps.ch/Page/SysConfig/We ... 8AFB6FD34B

[...]Jane's has learnt from Swiss sources close to the official evaluator , Armasuisse, that the Rafale was narrowly in the lead, followed by the Typhoon and then the Gripen[...]

[Christopher Sidor]

Mods can we have a poll to find out which is the preferred fighter by rakshaks. It would be a good reference point somewhere in the future.

[saptarishi]

Mods can we have a poll to find out which is the preferred fighter by rakshaks. It would be a good reference point somewhere in the future.

YES i have started a poll you can vote

[Jaybhatt]

Saptarishi : How do I vote on your poll ?

Cannot find the method by which I can express my preference.

[Jaybhatt]

Saptarishi : this is a follow-up message.

Please give your reply (about the voting method) on this topic or on your poll page. Thanks,

[saptarishi]

this poll has been closed or i would say locked by bharat rakshak moderators..no one else can vote now.it is their choice. moderators' will is important ..can't help.

[arthuro]

Coincidence is that another competition for fighter jet is about to end perhaps very closely to the MMRCA.

rafale: decision time approach in Switzerland

La Tribune , nov 27

Bern would make a decision late November or early December for the acquisition of 22 fighter planes, but a referendum could delay that schedule. Three manufacturers are on track to conquer the Swiss market: Dassault Aviation (Rafale), Saab (Gripen) and the Eurofighter consortium (Eurofighter Typhoon).

The time of choice approach for Switzerland for the purchase of 22 combat aircraft (November 30 or December 7, according to the Swiss press) ... but the case could still suffer a further delay with the organization of a referendum. Unlike the federal Parliament and the Council, the Chief of Defence Staff André Blattman supports a referendum about the acquisition of the new combat aircraft.

In an interview Sunday, November 20 in the Swiss weekly "SonntagsBlick", he said that a "vote of the people would give legitimacy to this decision. And so it would be important to have the people to decide" . He said "if we fail to persuade citizens, we are ourselves responsible." The Chief of Staff anticipates the decision of the Swiss Greens, who want the Swiss people decide on this purchase. If they do not get satisfaction, then they would launch an initiative for a moratorium with the help of other parties and associations, including the Group for a Switzerland without an Army. Which would block the process for months.

It would be a new setback for competitors. For now, according to the defense minister, Ueli Maurer, the cheaper plane, the Swedish Gripen, would cost around 3 billion francs for 22 copies, against 4 billion for the other two aircraft, the Eurofighter and Rafale, according to the Swiss press. However, the French device would be the most efficient operationally and the preferred aircraft of the Swiss pilots. Also, Paris, to improve the French offer, will offer to the Swiss Air Force flying areas in France and French air bases ... If, of course, Berne chooses Rafale. But its price (150 million euros each) - despite a strong Swiss franc against the euro - could get the Swiss to move back.

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... uisse.html

[SaiK]

this poll has been closed or i would say locked by bharat rakshak moderators..no one else can vote now.it is their choice. moderators' will is important ..can't help.

actually thank them.. else, it would have looked like another ToIlet attempt at this meaningless voting. It does not convey anything or add value like those discussions happen here between various members.

I hope before the a/c are chosen by MoD, our distinguished posters come up with comparisons and that should be more than enough to get a picture on the capabilities of each of these crafts. In a sense, we have them.. but one has to navigate so many posts to get a gist..

If somebody can do it, then a virtual halwa could be offered.

[member_20546]

A birdie tells me that there is lot of chatter in the inner circles that EuroFighter has won the IAF order. Or is it just a ploy to bring down the net cost of Rafale. We'll see soon.

[SaiK]

it would all depend on price:hype reduction::projected:actual capabilities.

[saptarishi]

this poll has been closed or i would say locked by bharat rakshak moderators..no one else can vote now.it is their choice. moderators' will is important ..can't help.

actually thank them.. else, it would have looked like another ToIlet attempt at this meaningless voting. It does not convey anything or add value like those discussions happen here between various members.

I hope before the a/c are chosen by MoD, our distinguished posters come up with comparisons and that should be more than enough to get a picture on the capabilities of each of these crafts. In a sense, we have them.. but one has to navigate so many posts to get a gist..

If somebody can do it, then a virtual halwa could be offered.

but it could have made the picture clear as to which jet majority of bharat rakshaks want,even though it wouldn't have affected MOd's decision,ultimately performance and package matters

[arthuro]

In switzerland only the rafale successfully passed the technical evaluation when the gripen and typhoon failed :

gripen fighter jet with unsatisfying grades

Basler Zeitung , Nov 27

Two Switzerland 's secret evaluation reports advise against purchasing the Swedish Gripen aircraft.

[...]This is shown by two evaluation reports, the Air Force Commander Markus Gygax has signed. The first report was prepared in 2008, immediately after the completion of extensive flight and ground tests of the three candidates, Rafale, and Gripen and Eurofighter. The second report, dated from 2009 and still authoritative, includes the second evaluation phase . The goal of this second evaluation phase was to determine for each of the three aircraft the planned adjustments and improvements needed between the practical flight test phase in 2008 and the planned delivery in 2015.
[...]
According to the 2009 Evaluation Report, the airplane with the lowest price among the providers, namely the Swedish Saab Gripen, failed clearly. The report says: "The Rafale is the only aircraft that has met the requirements of the Air Force in all types of applications."[...]

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard/Ka ... y/10934828

[saptarishi]

In switzerland only the rafale successfully passed the technical evaluation when the gripen and typhoon failed :

gripen fighter jet with unsatisfying grades

Basler Zeitung , Nov 27

Two Switzerland 's secret evaluation reports advise against purchasing the Swedish Gripen aircraft.

[...]This is shown by two evaluation reports, the Air Force Commander Markus Gygax has signed. The first report was prepared in 2008, immediately after the completion of extensive flight and ground tests of the three candidates, Rafale, and Gripen and Eurofighter. The second report, dated from 2009 and still authoritative, includes the second evaluation phase . The goal of this second evaluation phase was to determine for each of the three aircraft the planned adjustments and improvements needed between the practical flight test phase in 2008 and the planned delivery in 2015.
[...]
According to the 2009 Evaluation Report, the airplane with the lowest price among the providers, namely the Swedish Saab Gripen, failed clearly. The report says: "The Rafale is the only aircraft that has met the requirements of the Air Force in all types of applications."[...]

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard/Ka ... y/10934828

dassault guys are so rigid i hate them.raffy the bird is not a commercial success only because of the dassault guys.they are pathetic at negotiations.ecpect them to screw the mmrca too

[arthuro]

It is true that there is an issue with Dassault at negotiating. This friday on french weekly Air& cosmos they made a very severe editorial against Dassault's top management after the UAE debacle. They accused them of not seeking very hard export customer knowing that they are already very profitable with french orders only and Falcon business jets are working well. So they don't want to take too much risk and lack of aggressiveness in their commercial offer. The editorial also pointed that dassault's top management is very old (86 years old for Serge Dassault and 73 years old for Charles Edelstenne) and the style of negotiating is too "old school" and lack true energy and will.

[Taygibay]

Some people would not even choose between EF and Rafale :

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 61765.html



Good day all, Tay.