Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

[darshhan]

Here is a video entitled "Islam fun". That is why I post it here. Found it while looking for Islam+humor

It is not necessarily family friendly, but it could be funny I guess. Just 67 secs.

I am not embedding, just linking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqMU8vvc_gM

Pious and Horny muslimas.

[darshhan]

^^ By the way aren't dogs supposed to be unclean in Islam

[shiv]

Cross posting relevant posts:

My paternal grandmother's family came from Pathan dominated parts of the paki, Peshawar stretching out to Kabul, and as was common in those parts and times, it was part Hindu and part Sikh in composition, as was my maternal side of the family as well. My maternal grandmother was from the village of Zaffarwal, in the wild, sparsely populated part of West Punjab, close to the east bank of the Sindhu. It was mostly desert at that time. My maternal grandfather was a civil engineer who worked on planning and building the extensive canal network that went in those parts. Both my mother and grandmother told me that girls and women did not go out in public alone there at any time, and not after dark if at all they could help it. Out side the home, girls and women stayed fully covered as far as possible. Hindus and Sikhs were about 10% of the population, and abduction of their unaccompanied girls and women was common. Muslim men would abduct such females, rape and marry them, then convert them to islam. The incidents were common place enough that they were not reported in any serious way (the girls/women having "asked for it"). The practice was of long standing (was "always like this")- I got the impression that it went back to the time of muslim invasions, gazni, ghori et al. Listening to these tales in the refugee colonies of Delhi, as a young teenager, I got shivers down my back. Suddenly, Delhi seemed very comforting. It was hard to imagine that I was less than two generations removed from those times. My maternal grandfather died of a stroke in 1935, on the outskirts of Lyalpur, and my grandmother was left to raise her four youngest children. My mother was the eldest of them, and just 13 at that time. My grandmother was very self resilient, self assured, and determined. She told me that she was not allowed to cry publicly on the death of her husband, only place she could was in the bathroom. Her youngest 4, like the older 3, turned out well, two women school principals, a cardiac pathologist, and a under sec. at the Education ministry. But that was no place and time for women in India. Both my grandmother and mother have passed away. Now, telling these stories of the life they lived at the edge of Hindu civilization brings back memories of the tales I heard from them. If relating the horror they grew up with will give a little bit of understanding to the women of India to what the paki represents, then it would have been worth it. It will be hard to imagine for the rest of those women what it was like to grow up knowing that you could disappear at any time, which those friends and relatives you no longer meet may be under any one of those burkhas you see. You can understand the relief that they felt living in Delhi, or Bangalore, or Mumbai etc., and also their instinctive glance behind them that they lived with for the rest of their lives. And you can better understand why they felt that making paki stan was just as well. Your post brought all that back to me in a rush, and though it may be OT (I don’t think so, but will let admin decide) it needs to be told.

My point in bringing up the difficult times of my mother and grand mother when they lived in that overwhelming muslim majority area of India was to point out that most women in India are not aware that non muslim women in their own country lived under those conditions prior to 1947. Indeed, hindu women are even now living under those conditions in the paki lands, and occasional news items from there bear this out. And that treatment of hindu women in those parts of India before 1947 was some thing that went back all the way to the muslim raids and invasions of a thousand years ago. A pattern of behavior on part of the muslims that extends back in time that long belies any expectation of change. and it affirms, with current evidence, if such was needed, as to the catastrophic nature of those invasions and their consequence to Hindu civilization. It is immaterial that it was the same for the iranis, egyptians, etc. Those peoples bought into that bahavior and adopted it as their own, and even if they didnt, that is their problem to solve. Hindus had better take note of the problem, or its potential, and begin to address it for themselves.

My point in bringing up the difficult times of my mother and grand mother when they lived in that overwhelming muslim majority area of India was to point out that most women in India are not aware that non muslim women in their own country lived under those conditions prior to 1947.

not only 1947 but even before 1699 (when Khalsa was created) the condition of women was very bad.

Ranghar is the name of the caste who are the children of rape of women abducted by the Nawabs in Punjab. Even today you will find many villages named "Ranghar Nangal" etc. Usually a Nawab would abduct a beautiful young girl when he founds out (from her household women) and keep her as a concubine. Her childern would then be given to Mosques to be raised as "Ghazis","Gundas" or "castrated hijras protecting zenana" of Zamindars/Nawabs. This phenomenon was already established when Guru Gobind Singh created Khalsa with some nawabs having several generations of Ranghars serving them in abducting women and persecuting common peasents.

Guru Gobind Singh forbade Sikhs to have sexual intercourse with muslim women (especially after the territory have been captured)., till date in Gurdaspur/Jammu/Amritsar area people call all women as "Budddhi" or "Mai" i.e. "old lady" that is to show them respect and to take any lustful feeling.

In one incident before Khalsa was created around 1702 when Sikhs from Lahore who were traveling to see Guru Gobind Singh were looted close to the city of Hoshiarpur by the Ranghars., Guru Gobind singh sent his 17 years old eldest Son Ajit Singh along with some sikhs to get their money and clothes back. They got it by defeating these Ranghars.

Jassa singh Ahluwalia was called "Baandi Chhor" i.e. "who freed the captured slave girls" from the caravans of Abdali.
Just in one raid he freed 2200 such beautiful girls who were being taken away to Afghanistan/Arabia.

kapur Singh freed thousands of slaves in his 40 years of Khalsa leadership.

Even during the later misl times many people would turn up at Golden Temple (Akal Takth) asking for help to free their child/wife/etc from the hands of nawab. Gujjar Singh Bhangi led one raid to the fort of multan and freed many women.

Thus in 1947 women were still not free of the fear of abduction.

[Prem]

Its time to Raid Pakistan and free the women . Millions being the victim of supression, living the hellish life of being treated as property or contractual obligation . Thie souls most probably year form the freedom completely absent from their memory of past respectful status.

[wig]

Four Hindu medical doctors gunned down in Pakistan

Four Hindu doctors have been gunned down in Pakistan’s southern Sindh province, sparking fears and panic among the minority community. The doctors were gunned down on Monday at their clinic in Chak town close to Shikarpur.

Dr Ramesh Kumar, chief patron of Pakistan Hindu Council, confirmed that Dr Ashok, Dr Naresh, Dr Ajeet and Dr Satia Paul were killed by armed assailants while working in their clinic.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20111109/main5.htm

[shiv]

Cross post

Going back to the topic of abduction of Hindu and Sikh girls -- my grandmother grew up in the Buldhana district of Maharashtra, in a small town/village of Deulgaon in the 1920s. Buldhana district, as far as I know, was a part of the CP and Berar province, ruled by the British then. But the area was under muslim rule (mughals, Bahamni sultanate, Nizam of Hyderabad etc) from the 15th century and the practice of abducting Hindu girls was very common. I remember my grandmother always lamenting that she could not go to school past 4th grade, not because the family did not want to educate girls or that school was unaffordable, but because it was not safe for a girl to leave home. Even before 4th grade, she was escorted to school and back. After 4th grade, around 10 years or age, girls were not sent outside the 4 walls of their wada, just because it was not safe to do so. All this changed right after 1947 ... my aunts, her daughters, all went to college.
Hindus are often criticized about not educating their daughters, the purdah system and so on.. but if you go beneath the surface, a lot of this is the result of muslim invasions. As security is returning -- all of these artificial barriers are falling by the wayside and you can see Indian women having the same opportunities as the men.
None of this was in our History books -- these are stories handed down.

[ramana]

X-posted.. Bolding is by me..

Hearing the stories of many on this thread of the abduction, rape and 'conversion' of Hindu and Sikh (and other religions as well) girls set off a tube light in my head.

Mods, I apologize if this crosses the line of what is allowed to be said but I strongly believe it to be true.

This uber-masculine woman-snatching is a fundamental pillar of Islam throughout history and to this day. It is also not just our subcontinental Muslims who have done it; it is a historic practice from every Muslim ruler in any part of the world. I remember the first time I spoke with a few Bulgarians about the experience of the orthodox Christians under the Ottoman Turks, and he told me about the blood tax -- it was an annual practice where the Sultan's men would go around to the Christian villages (just like in India, the villages retained their native religion whereas the cities were bastions of the invading Muslims) and line up all the young boys and girls. The most beautiful girls would be collected to become concubines in the harem of the local bey or even more important figures all the way up to the Sultan himself, depending on the beauty of the girl. The strongest, best-looking and most intelligent boys would be taken to be the personal slaves of the Sultan -- converted to Islam and then raised to be fanatic in their faith and loyalty to the Sultan. This is the origin of the famous Ottoman Janissaries. Year after year, for the centuries of Ottoman rule, wherever Christians lived they were subject to this diabolical practice -- imagine, taking the very flower of their youth and converting them into their most loyal, exploited subjects! Incidentally my Bulgarian friend told me this grim story in response to my half-joking statement that Turkish women tended to be better looking than Bulgarians... this explained it in an all too dark fashion.

Islam has always needed non-Muslims to prey upon in this manner -- harass them, rape and 'convert' their women to be the third, fourth, fifth wife (or hundredth concubine or sex slave), and occasionally murder the men and confiscate their wealth. This promise of booty and plunder has been fundamental to the military expansion of Islam -- the ghazis that extended the frontiers of the Caliphates were motivated in equal part by their lust for divine virgins as for the real-world non-Muslims virgins, who were after all fair game.

But I also think that this oppression of women is key to the Islamic strategy for domination -- Islam reduces women to two functions, both attending to the needs of the ghazi: to serve him in whatever sexual desires he has, and to produce two or five or ten children for him. Women are nothing but baby factories in Islam, and this demographic aggressiveness gives them strength in numbers -- even in places that Muslims never were before, such as America and Northern Europe. In these democratic societies numbers, combined with narrow parochial voting patterns, gain an additional weight because they sway politicians.

So: women, when out of the clutches of the ghazis of Islam, are the prize: and once caught, raped, and appropriately subjugated, become baby machines to produce the next generation of looting and plundering ghazis. At a certain point large populations have a momentum beyond all other qualities (or lack thereof) that competing populations may bring to bear.

This disturbing but effective strategy also contains the key to the reversal of Islamic fortunes: and that is to liberate the women. If women are no longer prey, either pre-conversion as 'exposed meat' or post-conversion as baby machines and sex toys sequestered in four walls; if women could fight back, had access to education and career goals and dreams, and could pursue life as humans and not as the playthings of ghazis, then Islam would lose its vitality.

I am convinced that this is true.

Apologies if this has been an incoherent rant (my blood is still boiling at the injustices suffered by my fellow brothers and sisters, and ancestors, at the hands of these subhuman brutes over the centuries), I am typing in stream-of-consciousness mode... take it FWIW.

It is said that a Muslim is superior to four people:
1) non Muslim
2) Slave
3) boy
4) women

Of these the first three can change their status: non Muslim can convert, a slave can be freed or get converted and a boy can grow up
The last cannot change her status.

Its by liberating the women that Islam can undergo reformation.

[Kamboja]

Cross-posting

There is some evidence for this, but its not so black and white. Modern Iran is a compelling case in point. Under the appearances of an adrenalized Islamist swagger lies an alter ego where Islamism is weak. And a great part of it has to do with the aspirations and even the rebellious nature of their women and their "temerity" to express it. There is also a clear trend of targeting and trying to bully womenfolk, a tactic turned on by the regime each time they feel the need to show who's in control. It was also widely noted that women were a sizeable portion of the 'Green Revolution' street presence.

Another noticeable statistic there is the high divorce rate. And then among stable marriages there is a low birthrate. The birthrate there initially shot up for a while during the war, when the faithful produced many offspring at the orders of their Marjas (gurus). But then it plummeted.

However, its not necessarily such a one-sided picture. Many educated women who affiliate themselves with Islamism of their own choice become very vocal and assertive proponents of this ideology, and make gung ho activists. As long as they are allowed to speak forcefully and pursue their life's aspirations, they are prepared to wear a tight sock and scarf on their heads as a bold public statement. In fact, I usually notice a peculiarly feverish drive among these women to attain some material achievement, in order to prove (to others or themselves?) how liberated Islamist women can be. Generally in Iran one finds more women going in for higher education than men. But many of these are now becoming sick and tired of the regime.

And at the other end of the spectrum, the under-educated womenfolk tend to typically cling to a Marja and his congregation, just like some Indian women like to be part of some adorable guruji's sanga. Its common for such women to be actively involved in constantly organizing home programs and inviting the Marja or some deputed mulla/molana to speak to an almost all-women audience. Once the short talk is over and praises to the holy ones chanted, it all then turns over to tea and snacks and plenty of gossip. So this culture also accommodates a large portion of the women from more traditional backgrounds.

I also noticed that the Islamist government in Iran is very smart in its social engineering strategies. Often they will provide a facility for women that seems very progressive in the short term, but in the longer term it is guaranteed to isolate them and make them less confident surviving independently in society. For example, I know that in the town of Rasht (Gilan), they had created women's only parks complete with exercise equipment and jogging tracks, and the freedom to use it without any hijab requirements. Younger women were ecstatic, to be able to be outdoors without a headscarf or manteau, jogging and using attractive exercise facilities. But as one slightly older female friend pointed out, by getting the public to swallow the segregation pill, the Islamists were setting these younger women up for failure in the future, since they would find themselves feeling awkward around men in the workplace. She had to get over that awkwardness herself, and she sees it becoming a bigger hurdle for these clueless young ladies.

As I said, there is some evidence to support your theory, though it applies to conservative traditional societies everywhere to some extent. But it is particularly sharp in Islamist societies because they wield the iron rod in enforcing such attitudes. This delicate but crucial issue must be 'educated' in order to crack open and break apart Islamism.

As for the rest of your post, I do think it was a bit over the top in restricting the phenomenon to one religion only. I have come across descriptions of the use and abuse of village belles even by some Hindu kings and zamindars. The erstwhile royal house of Nepal is a recent 'shining' example. Naxals and Maosist gangsters don't manage to get grassroots cooperation just solely at gunpoint. But I do agree that the Turks made a glorified sport of it far more than any other peoples I know. One Turkish friend of mine boasted with a cackle that they have a proverb in Turkish: "Turks freely take words and women from other peoples/cultures!" This was the macho excuse of super-nationalist Turks for the fact that their language would be worth little without all the Persian (with its Arabic) in it.

Carl-ji, many thanks for adding some nuance to what was undoubtedly a black-and-white post. I do not disagree with anything you've written, and in fact had the same thought cross my mind about kings who were Hindu or Buddhist or whatever religion. Kings and powerful men have always taken many women against their will, no doubt it was true of non-Muslim Indian rulers as well.

However: the reason I think Islam is exceptional in this regard is that this kind of abduction and rape-marriage has a degree of approval unlike any other religion/civilization. This is because of the example of Mohammed.

Mohammed as you no doubt know is held to be the perfect exemplar of what a man should be; all Muslim men are supposed to aspire to emulate him. However, Mohammed also conducted war, including raids involving the plunder and capture of non-Muslim men and women who were enslaved. Mohammed also married and took for himself some of these women slaves.

Simplistic Islamic fundamentalism reduces Mohammed's life to: 'if he did it, I have divine sanction to do it'. Thus Islam gives divine sanction to the abduction, rape and forced conversion of non-Muslims. Certainly other men in other civilizations have preyed upon women, it is a side of human nature. No other civilization holds this behavior up as exemplary, even divinely sanctioned, like Islam seems to. The closest parallel I can think of is Rome; whose foundational myth included the story of the Rape of the Sabine Women. Even that does not compare to how Islam seems to justify the abduction and rape of non-Muslim women.

That is the despicable aspect of unreformed Islam that I was trying to call out in my initial post, and adding caveats like 'other men/religions have done it too', while true, would only dilute the point and would be a form of equal-equal that I wanted to avoid.


To your second point that women will not start abandoning Islam; again I agree. However I do not see that as necessary; for the vitality of Islam to be sapped it is sufficient that these women be independent minded enough to stay unmarried until at least the mid-twenties, and that they reproduce at or close to the replacement rate. Imagine if that change alone could be applied to Pakistan; overnight their population would stabilize. All those mushrooming communities of fundamentalist Muslims who are seeking to change the demography of Europe and the US -- if overnight the women were liberated enough to choose when and how to have children, suddenly the Muslim community would not be the fastest growing one around, and the demographic advantage that comes from breeding like rabbits would be lost. Think of all those future suicide bombers and mujahideen waiting to be born to reluctant women in Pakistan; if they could be liberated to the point where they decide perhaps three children is enough, in sixteen years that is one less unemployed, radicalized scoundrel taking potshots at our servicemen and women or planting bombs in Kashmir or Mumbai or Afghanistan.

So yes, Muslim women may mostly remain loyal to the religion that ties them down and denigrates them, but as long as they gain some degree of control over their bodies and destinies it will fundamentally weaken Islam, because it will rob the Arab imperialist religion of its biggest engine of growth.

[member_19686]

The Concept of Brotherhood in Islam

Hudson New York 10 November 2011
By Harold Rhode

... . Religiously Ignorant Members of the Former Ottoman Royal Family and Their Political Affinities

The Sultans of the Ottoman Empire, the forefathers of the former royal Ottoman family, ruled for 653 years, during most of which time the Ottoman Empire was the largest and strongest Sunni Muslim power. During the last 100 years or so of their rule, each Ottoman sultan claimed to be the spiritual and political leader of the entire Muslim world.[17] Moreover, huge numbers of Muslims living outside the Ottoman Empire agreed with him and viewed him as such.

Today, although members of the Ottoman royal family, whose ancestors Atatürk expelled from Turkey in the 1920s, still get together from time to time, they are now frequently secular, and few seem to express more than a rudimentary knowledge of Islam.

One member of the Ottoman royal family who lived in Europe, was, like most of his relatives, secular: he ate pork, enjoyed alcohol, and had even demonstrated "philo-Semitic," pro-Israeli tendencies. He had even asked a non-Muslim friend whether he, a descendent of the Ottomans, was a Sunni or Shi'ite -- an astounding question from a relative of the Ottoman Sultan, his not-so-distant ancestor, who had been the spiritual and the political, leader of the entire Sunni Islamic world

When Israel invaded southern Lebanon in 1982, however, he, who had never displayed the slightest interest in politics and had virtually no knowledge of the people living in southern Lebanon, became enraged at Israel. He said he felt almost personally attacked -- as if Israel had assaulted his people -- even though, ethnically, it was highly unlikely that he shared the slightest blood relationship with anyone in Lebanon. The last Sultan was approximately 1/1258 ethnically Turkish; mothers of the sultans were almost always European, or Caucasian slaves and concubines who were part of the Ottoman harem. We do not know of even a single Arab one...

http://europenews.dk/en/node/49441

[member_19686]

Meanwhile in Maldives:

Protesters knock over “idolatrous” Pakistani SAARC monument
By Ahmed Naish | November 10th, 2011

A group of protesters on Wednesday night knocked over the SAARC monument designed by Pakistan, during a demonstration over that “idolatrous” carvings engraved on the monument.

The monument, which was erected at Hithadhoo in Addu City ahead of the SAARC Summit and features pagan symbols of ancient civilisation of Pakistan and a bust of the country’s founder Mohamed Ali Jinah, was removed by the Addu City Council on Tuesday night but placed back with a cover the next day ahead of today’s unveiling ceremony.

An eyewitness to Wednesday night’s incident told Minivan News that two men from the protesting group ran up to the monument near the Power Park in Hithadhoo and knocked it over.

One of the men was reportedly taken into custody. A police media official in Addu City however could not confirm the arrest but said the incident was being investigated.

The eyewitness claimed the group was led by an opposition Dhivehi Rayyithunge Party (DRP) member, who tried to restrain the protesters.

The group was protesting the engravings of pagan symbols, he explained, which they contended could be considered objects of worship and demanded its immediate removal.

He added that there were two police officers stationed at the monument when it was knocked over, who were later reinforced by riot police. The monument was placed back and covered shortly after the incident.

Opposition parties, including the religious conservative Adhaalath Party, have condemned the government for over the incident and accused the current administration of pursuing an agenda to introduce freedom of religion in the Maldives.

Meanwhile, two opposition MPs were arrested last night at Ibrahim Nasir International Airport while attempting to take down SAARC banners featuring allegedly Christian imagery.

The monument, designed and approved by the Pakistani government, was officially unveiled by Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani at 6pm today. A sizable crowd of Hithadhoo residents gathered at the area with Maldivians and Pakistani flags and took photographs after the event.

Monuments representing the culture and religion of the eight SAARC nations have been placed across Addu City for the summit, which were unveiled by the heads of state and government over the past two days.

http://minivannews.com/politics/protest ... dols-28033

[chetak]

^^^^


ancient civilisation of Pakistan???

Is 1947 ancient in paki history text books??

[Aditya_V]

Police Detain, Beat Converts from Islam in India

[tejas]

http://amilimani.com/2011/11/islam-was- ... not-for-me

Although written by an Iranian former muslim, the words should be spoken by our Paki "brothers." This is a MUST READ.

[arun]

In a rare moment of “EnMo” aka “Enlightened Moderation” the Islamic Republic of Pakistan erects a monument in the Maldives that recognises that Pakistani history did not commence with the Arab invasion of Muhammad bin Qasim and included in the monument depictions of artifacts of the ancient Indus Valley civilisation such as a portrayal of the Lord Buddha.

This above act of “Enlightened Moderation” by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan resulted in their Mohammadden co-religionists in the Maldives getting their knickers in a pious Islamic twist and no sooner than the monument was unveiled by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani it was vandalised by subjecting it to an act of arson.

This was not the first attack on the monument. Earlier it was subjected to an attack by members of the Opposition Political parties of the Maldives and shamefully the Islamic Minister of the Maldives, Dr Abdul Majeed Abdul Bari, termed the monument was “illegal” as it “represented objects of worship of other religions.” :

Pakistan’s ‘idolatrous’ SAARC monument set ablaze by protesters

[Klaus]

A polygamous Muslim man accused of murdering his 3 daughters in a honour killing shows no remorse.

Police allegedly have a recording of Shafia, a polygamist, made the day after his arrest, complaining to his second wife Tooba Yahya that his daughters had been dating while ranting about the family's honour.

He was angry his eldest daughter had married a Pakistani man.

Shafia allegedly said his daughters were "treacherous" and he was "consoled" when he looked at pictures of them.

"I say to myself, 'You did well. Would they come back to life a hundred times, for you to do the same again'."

[ramana]

X-post....
SSridhar wrote:

I was listening to Bharat Karnad speaking at the NJ Meet, and what he said about Pakistan.

He spoke of having Pakistan as a buffer state between India and the Islamic Virus. I do agree with this assessment. His prescription is that we should make large gestures to Pakistan and co-opt them.

BK does not realise that Pakistan is THE ISLAMIC VIRUS. There will be no buffer anymore unless Pakistanis are pushed beyond Hindukush.

Absolutely VikasRaina. The Great Game plan of these areas being a buffer to the Crown Jewel against Czarist irredentism cannot now be recast in terms of creeping Islamic extremism and terrorism.

In the events leading up to the creation of Pakistan, there were two major thought processes among Indian Muslims. The first was consolidation of 'ummah' and the second was the longing for a 'naton'. The foundation for the first stream was laid by Sirhindi, Waliullah, Ahmed Berelvi and the like. They had confused notions of a nation-state because the ummah was essentially boundaryless and was led by a Caliph. They believed in jihad to achieve their ambition. The violent termination of the last vestiges of the Mughal empire followed five decades later by the dissolution of the Ottoman Caliphate made the believers of this thinking feel naked, impotent and dispirited. The second group was represented by another set of confused people like Sir Sayyid Ahmed Khan, Mohammed Iqbal, Jinnah etc. They believed in cooperating with the colonial power to achieve their ambition, but wanted to intimidate the rest of India through violence. The bridge between these two was Abu ala al Mawdudi who though initially opposed to partition came around to the view that Pakistan, as a nation-state could be a stepping stone for attaining the Caliphate. He also subscribed to jihad, like his contemporary Syed Qutb of Egypt, though in a very subtle way.

Thus, everyone who defined modern-day Pakistan had violence, jihad, fundamentalism and extremism in their minds. This is tightly codified in the Pakistani DNA and there is no getting away from this irrespective of a Pakistani being a Ahl-e-Sunnah, Naqshbandi, Deobandi, Ahl-e-Hadith, Wahhabi etc. It is this confusion that led them to forsake their original ‘identity’ and seek new ones to justify these fake theories too. This is the Islamic virus against which we have no buffer. To borrow from Jaswant Singh, how can 'the problem' be 'the solution' ?

[abhishek_sharma]

“Our” Islamists: Brahma Chellaney

[Agnimitra]

Saudi women with attractive eyes may be forced to cover even them up, if resolution is passed

- Islamic state fears effect of 'tempting' eyes on men
- Says it 'has the right' to issue repressive edict
- Women must already cover their hair and wear full-length black cloak

Women with attractive eyes may be forced to cover them up under Saudi Arabia's latest repressive measure, it was revealed today.

The ultra-conservative Islamic state has said it has the right to stop women revealing 'tempting' eyes in public.

[...]

In 2002 the committee refused to allow female students out of a burning school in Mecca because they were not wearing the correct head covering.

The decision contributed to the toll of 15 people who were killed in the fire.

[A_Gupta]

Sharia in London.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN6CHtGGo4g

[arun]

Islamic terrorist bomb attack among other wounds three Buddhist Monks in the Mohammadden majority and Islamic Terrorist plagued Southern Thailand:

Bomb attack wounds 9, including 3 monks, in Thailand’s Muslim-majority south

[Prem]

Muslim cousin marriages fills schools for retarded
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/11/denma ... arded.html

Latest news from Denmark: "Cousin-cousin marriages fill special schools":
Immigrant children constitute a majority in schools for mentally handicapped and retarded children. The risk of mental and physical disabilities increases significantly when cousins ​​marry each other. Cousin-marriages are highly prevalent in immigrant communities and this is reflected in the number of immigrant children in schools for the mentally retarded. New figures from Copenhagen shows that special schools for children who are born with disabilities or mental retardation, in several cases have a clear majority of immigrant children. At Engskolen, Fensmark School and Frederiksgårs School, which are schools for mentally handicapped and mentally retarded children easier, six out of ten children are bilingual.

[ramana]

Arabist Snobs

by Daniel Pipes
National Review Online
November 22, 2011

http://www.meforum.org/pipes/10342/arabist-snobs
.

Is knowledge of Arabic necessary to write about Arabs or make policy toward them? Yes, sniff some of those who have learned the language, known as Arabists.

The Arabic language went to Antony Sullivan's head.

Antony T. Sullivan, for example, pulls rank in the journal Historically Speaking. Critiquing an article, "The Military Roots of Islam," by two non-Arabists, George Nafziger and Mark Walton, he writes: "As one who believes that foreign language competence and accurate rendition of foreign words and concepts into English are important," – note Sullivan's puffed-up sense of self – "I must confess to considerable disappointment in the article." And what devastating mistake did those authors make to undermine their thesis? Did they misunderstand jihad (Islamic holy war)? No, something much worse:

Most egregiously, the authors refer more than once to the Muslim direction of prayer as the qilbah. This is incorrect: Nafziger and Walton have reversed the second and third consonants of the Arabic word (root: qaaf-baa-laam). The correct word is qibla (accent on the first syllable), and in English that word is most commonly written with the spelling indicated. The system of transliteration recommended by the International Journal of Middle East Studies, the leading American scholarly journal in the field, holds that there is no reason to add an 'h' to the final letter (taa marbuuta) of such words as qibla.

Sullivan concludes on an even more pompous note: "It is unfortunate that those who do not have a firm command of Arabic opt to write on topics that demand linguistic competence. But this is unfortunately all too common in the times in which we live.

Juan Cole "commands" languages and bad policy.

But Nafziger-Walton correctly understand that war is "the principal process by which Islam spread throughout the world," while Sullivan, despite his intimacy with taa marbuutas, propagates Islamist misinformation ("terrorism and Jihad are not identical twins but historic enemies"). His error fits a larger Arabist deceit, hiding the true meaning of jihad and pretending that it means self improvement rather than offensive warfare.


{This is the same affliction of the WKK yearning for nuances of Urdu! They dont see the murdeorus hordes of the kabila. They see only the dervish singing sufi praises to Allah}

Juan Cole, a professor at the University of Michigan, offers another colorful instance of Arabist snobbism. His official biography proclaims he "commands Arabic, Persian and Urdu and reads some Turkish." Preposterously, he argues that U.S. problems in Iraq resulted from a lack of Arabic language ability: "we saw all the instant Middle East experts who knew no Arabic and had never lived in the Arab world or sometimes even been there who were paraded as knowledgeable sources."

But his vaunted knowledge of many languages did not prevent Cole from giving horrible advice, such as encouraging Washington to trust the Muslim Brotherhood and negotiate with Hamas.

Amusingly, Cole specifically lambasts the American Enterprise Institute, asking "Does anyone … over there even speak a word of Arabic?" and derides one specific AEI scholar, Michael Rubin. "I've never seen Rubin quote an Arabic source, and wonder if he even knows the language; he is a Persianist by training." Rubin (whose biography says nothing about the languages he "commands") informs me that he has "a working knowledge of Arabic" adequate to quote Arabic newspapers for policy analysis. Unlike Cole, Rubin does not flaunt having learnt difficult languages; also unlike Cole, Rubin offers sensible policy advice on an impressive range of issues.

David Pryce-Jones's Closed Circle is "a landmark."

Moreover, note the inconsistency of Cole and other Arabists; "they themselves freely write about Israel, although they have no Hebrew," Lee Smith of The Weekly Standard points out. Perhaps too many foreigners know Hebrew to make it quite so prestigious?

While one can scarcely imagine serious research on, say, the United States without knowing English, non-Arabists do write useful and important studies about Arabs due to the vast amount of information in Western languages, especially English. For example, I have praised David Pryce-Jones's The Closed Circle: An Interpretation of the Arabs as "a landmark for understanding the politics of the Middle East." If one hardly needs Arabic to write about the United States, native Arabic speakers typically do need information available in Western languages to excel.

Of course, it helps to know languages. But, as these examples suggest, languages do not protect against ideology, faddism, pedantry or misinformation. They guarantee neither quality scholarship nor policy insights. Whoever has learned Arabic can take pride in this achievement without boasting that it trumps other qualifications. It is one tool among many, not a status.

Mr. Pipes (www.DanielPipes.org), author of a grammar of the Egyptian dialect, is president of the Middle East Forum and Taube distinguished visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University. © 2011 by Daniel Pipes. All rights reserved.

[Agnimitra]

Arabist Snobs

by Daniel Pipes
National Review Online
November 22, 2011

http://www.meforum.org/pipes/10342/arabist-snobs
.

Is knowledge of Arabic necessary to write about Arabs or make policy toward them? Yes, sniff some of those who have learned the language, known as Arabists.

The Arabic language went to Antony Sullivan's head.

I have also noticed this trend. Many of the Arabists, including white Americans, are either fully practicing Moslems, or "perennialists" with a definite bent towards Islam. Some of them are believers, but maintain an agnostic stance in public. Others are overtly practicing believers.

Apart from white and Afro-American intellectual converts, I also noticed some Turkish Gulenist immigrants in the US choosing Arabic and history as specializations, with a specific eye on policymaking and other positions in US government. This seemed to be with the mutual understanding and coaching of people in US govt. These guys were being groomed by their professors in US universities, too. And of course, at heart they are hardcore Islamists.

There is a sense among intellectual converts to Islam (in the West) that Islam is the future that was and is planned for America.

This belief is not based on creeping conversions of masses, etc., but based on what they perceive as a covert admiration of Islam and its properties that has been among the Western elites for a long time in history -- including and especially the founding fathers of America. They see it as a propensity that, of necessity, was kept covert since the masses are prejudiced and fanatical Christians or atheists. However, both from historical evidence as well as current networking with certain sections of the intellectual and political elites, they feel that the West is being slowly "prepared" for Islam, the main obstacle being regressive Christian and secularist elements that depend on the support of "ignorant" masses. They foresee the Western elites overtly taking over the mantle of Islamic leaders after the fashion of Turkic elites who had done so in the past, after establishing political supremacy. This gave their supremacy a holistic psycohlogical aspect that helped consolidate their territories, and also gave Islamism a fillip. This is truly the sense that pervades the intellectual Islamic community (of converts, sympathizers and immigrants) in N. America, which is very, very active and dynamic.

Here's an interesting clip where some of these hints filter down and are disseminated, by a Pakistani-American speaker in this case:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ghazali22#p/f

When I can find a similar clip of American white/Jewish intellectuals with Islamic bent, I will post it here.

[Agnimitra]

^^^ Here is a good example of an "Arabist" who knowingly but subtly contributes to a particular Islamist agenda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7yaDlZfqrc

This is a clip of a talk by Lesley Hazelton. She is British-american, from a nominally Jewish backround. She publicly claims to be "agnostic". She is a respected Arabist and scholar about "the intersection of politics, religion, and history, especially in the Middle East." She also has a book, "After The Prophet" in which she talks about the Shia and Sunni separation.

[KJo]

Police Detain, Beat Converts from Islam in India

Why won't the RSS, Bajrang Dal have Shuddhi events and convert these people to Hinduism? Why do we let mercenaries from the Vatican operate in India?

[ramana]

I read that book. It goes into good detail about the early years of SIlam under Muhammad and the four caliphs. She writes on the role of Ayesha in the hadiths.

Her talk on Koran at the TED

Video Link

[wig]

a story of Mirpur a town now in POK. How it fell to muslim marauders and the massacres carried out of the hindu civilian population.
a tale of rape and pillage. the author was an eyewitness and very very fortunate to come out of this alive

Mirpur, the erstwhile District Head Quarters and Commercial Hub Centre of Jammu and Kashmir State, now a part of Pakistan occupied Kashmir (POK) fell to the hands of Pakistani raiders on 25th November, 1947. The whole town having a population of over 25,000 souls, was butchered only because the noble sons of the soil of Mirpur, had unitedly decided not to allow the raiders to enter into the city of Mirpur even at the cost of their lives. It was beyond their imagination that political rivalry between the then rulers of Central and State Governments would make the citizens of Mirpur city a scape goat and turn the entire city of Mirpur into a graveyard of dead bodies and there would remain none to cremate the dead, bodies of more than 18,000 noble souls of men, women and innocent children and to hear the terrible cries of half dead wounded persons who were hanging in the cruel jaws of death. Out of the population of over 25,000 persons of Mirpur city, more than 18,000 persons were killed on the spot at four massacre centres at Kas Guma, Thathal, Alibeg and Mirpur city. Out of the remaining 7,000 about 3500 were made prisoners and rest about 3500 could reach Jammu in a very miserable condition.
The author of this write-up who had witnessed the terrible scene of naked dance of death at Mirpur due to his favorable stars, was not caught by any captor on his way to Jammu and was in the group of 3500 persons, which reached Jammu via Jhangar, the base camp of Indian army at that time, Bal K Gupta author of the ''Forgotten Atrocities memories of a survive of the 1947 partition of India who was also the resident of Mirpur fell to the hands of captors and witnessed what happened at Kas Guma, Thathal and Alibeg. He was brought to India by ICRC (International Committee of Red Cross) in March 1948. He is now settled in USA.
Soon after 15th August, 1947, Pakistan pushed her army and mercenary Pathans who laid seize of the city of Mirpur and choked it economically by denying access to all essential commodities. The incessant firing and heavy gun operation forced the small and ill equipped State Forces to confine themselves in their pickets within the city. The State Forces were fully assisted by the young civil population of Mirpur city. The Garrison repulsed the enemy attacks on 6th, 10th and 11th November 1947. The residents of Mirpur city were confident that the Government of Jammu and Kashmir and the Government of India would come to their rescue but alas! none of the two Governments sent any fighting force. Due to irony of fate, the only wireless set provided to the Police camp, also went out of order due to some mechanical defect which led to disruption in radio link with the two Governments who remained mute to see the fate of the citizens of Mirpur. At the midnight of November 23, under a thick cover of artillery shelling and bursting of grenades which are normally used during openly declared war, the Pakistan army launched a major attack on the Eastern side of the city which was resisted by the depleting Garrison Forces , for six hours. This was the heaviest attack witnessed so far. The post put up the most spirited resistance but the enemy came in wave after wave and after six hours of ceaseless fighting that portion of the defence was run-over by seven Pathans who entered the town at mid night. Alarmed by the worst critical situation, the internal flying Death Squads engaged themselves madly in hand to hand fight with the infiltrators and kept the other enemy soldiers at bay at the cost of many casualities to our young men who were on the pickets. The operation remained in action till the morning of November 24. In that critical situation, the State Administration clandestinely, decided to retreat to Jammu leaving behind the hapless citizens to face the wrath of the marauders who like hungry wolves were eagerly watching to grab the citizens of Mirpur. At about 8-30 AM on November 25, 1947 fully armed raiders entered the city from all the sides pushing the people into one corner of the city. Within one hour, the old and beautiful city of Mirpur tuned into a hell. The terrified men, women and children in utter chaos and confusion in the midst of heavy firing from all the sides and in the chocking atmosphere due to smoke coming out of the burning houses of the city, marched in a caravan without knowing where would they reach.
Eye witness account given by Bal K Gupta massacre at Kas Guma- Late at night on November 25, 1947 when the ill fated caravan was passing at a side distance of about two miles from Kas Guma, a group in army uniform shouted in the darkness of the night that they were soldiers of Jammu and Kashmir army deployed to rescue Hindu civilians. Hearing this, a group of 2,000 people believed them as their protectors turned towards Kas Guma and after reaching Kas Guma they were captured. They gathered round the captives and asked them to surrender all their cash and jewellery. The next morning all the youngmen numbering about 500, were taken on the top of a ridge and ordered them to remove their clothes and lie down in a row. They all were killed. After that, all the young women and girls were taken at unknown places.
Massacre at Thathal- On the morning of November 27, the Pakistani soldiers drove another group of about 2000 persons and brought at village. Thathal and handed over to a new commander who asked the captives to surrender Cash/ornaments they had. The fear gripped captives threw all the valuables on a sheet of cloth which the captors had spread on the ground. The Pakistani soldiers separated the Sikhs. The Sikh women and children raised hue and cry and begged for mercy from the Pakistani soldiers. The blood-thirsty commander did not care, and resorted to brutalities.
Massacre at Alibeg- Sikh Gurudwara at Alibeg was converted into a prison to dump the captives from Mirpur city and its adjoining areas. There were more than 5000 captives at Alibeg. In the beginning 50 to 100 young men were daily taken out at night and killed. Besides, 15 to 20 captives died every day in the prison due to illness, food poisoning. On December 1, a young Muslim attorney of Mirpur named Mohd Ibrahim well known to many Hindu Officers of Mirpur visited the prison and showed his false sympathy to intellegentia who were brought there as acaptives. He assured them their safety and promised them that he would try his best to get them absorbed in factories and Govt offices on daily wage basis till they were at Alibeg. He gave Muslim caps and mufflers to some of them as a token of his friendship, but these gestures were infact, subtle signals to the Pakistan soldiers to kill these people first. The next morning, the soldiers gathered a group of educated people of the prison on the pretext of giving jobs on daily wage basis. Those who were wearing Muslim caps and mufflers proudly occupied the front line. At a distance of 3 miles they all were slaughtered on the bank of the canal. The entire Gurudwara building was full of bad smell of urine, faecess and rotten garbage.
A team of ICRC (International Committee of Red Cross) arrived there in mid January 1948. On March 18, 1948 they managed to get the captives liberated from Alibeg. They at that time were not more than 1600 as the rest were either killed or kidnapped. Most of them were widows, old men and women and children. They reached Amritsar (India) on the evening of March 19, 1948 where they were given a touching reception by their relatives and general public.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/web1/11nov25/index.htm

[devesh]

the "Arabist" mentality is also spreading in BD. I know a BD girl born and brought up in America, majoring in Neuroscience and Arabic language in college. she wants to become a doctor and eventually some US govt related bodies (wants to do law/international relations after medicine) with Arabic/Islam as her "specialty" or "contribution". I had an interesting conversation with her. asked why she needs Arabic when Bengali is the age old language of her ancestors with a rich heritage and culture. why adopts a foreign language? her response was "Bengali has lots of anti-Islamic elements. My Islamic heritage means that I need to embrace it and move away from anti-Islamic stuff."

I was astonished. she was born and brought up in America and she was fully subscribing to a hard core Islamist interpretation.

I have seen an Indian Hyderabad muslim guy (also getting his medical degree in US right now) born and brought up in US with the same attitude. he once told me without hesitation that in case of war between Pak and India, he supports Pak b/c Pak is Muslim majority and is Islamic while India is not.

I used to naively believe that US was free form this stuff. now, I believe that US is perhaps the greatest incubator of Islam in any Western country. "greatest" b/c US population and socio politics is huge enough for the Islamists to completely escape attention and slowly plant the seeds of their thoughts over decades. I would say that there is a dedicated cadre of intellectuals who are sympathetic towards Islamist agenda and are themselves very well connected...

[PratikDas]

What you see is the effect of people with an inferiority complex seeking glory in victory. The mullahs preach that this glory can only be achieved by being on the right side of Islam because Islam will prevail. Then they tell you that the right side of Islam is in Mecca and Arabic is part of the eligibility criteria. Finally, they tell you it's not too late for you to shun your culture and diversity.

It is a simple formula and suckers fall for it.

[arun]

Mohammadden supremacists continue their intimidatory behaviour in Nigeria:

Suspected Islamists bomb police station, bank in Nigeria

[Upendra]

Jamaat in Pakistan http://www.viewpointonline.net/jamaat-in-pakistan.html
Jamaat in Kashmir http://www.viewpointonline.net/jamaat-in-kashmir.html
Jamaat in India http://www.viewpointonline.net/jamaat-in-india.html
Jamaat in Bangladesh http://www.viewpointonline.net/jamaat-i ... adesh.html

[RajeshA]

Published on Nov 25, 2011
Gigantic baby ‘Jihad’ born in Berlin: The Local

Doctors were left astounded after a gigantic baby set a new record for Germany’s heaviest-ever naturally born newborn Friday. The boy was named Jihad.

The boy will join nine brothers and four sisters – four of which had birth weights of more than five kilograms.

The German tax payer is probably paying for all the 13 siblings of this baby! A child usually gets € 184 per month in Germany as Kindergeld, plus if the family has more than 4 children, then they get support in finding appropriate accommodation and even support for a house maid.

Despite all this support, the parents go ahead and call this boy "Jihad"! Now if that is not like showing the middle-finger to the Germans, I don't know what is?!

[shiv]

cross post

PROBLEM STARTS WHEN a mullah /clergy/baba misinterprets the teachings for personal gains.....quran doesn't preach killing in the name of jehad is a way to heaven,,,

Mihaylo - some errors in your interpretation.
1. Quran was first written down about 2-4 centuries after prophet Mohammad died. It was not written by Mohammad or by his followers at the time he was alive. This is a topic that any Muslim who wants to discuss will "steak" his life and cause him to become instant wajib ul cattle.

2. The original Quran is in undecipherable ancient Arabic that even modern Arabic readers cannot understand without separate training. 99% of Muslims are bullshitting when they say they read the Quran.

3. The Quran is not enough to figure out Islam. It is embellished by volumes of hadiths which are narratives of what Mohammad said and did during his life as noted by eyewitnesses. These too were clearly handed down as "tradition" and not actually written down or video recorded during his lifetime. These traditions include mundane details of things like whether to urinate standing up or sitting down based on what the Prophet was seen to do.

4. The hadiths were recorded by the narratives of multiple people and some of them are controversial. Some are accepted by some groups of Muslims and not by others. No Muslim will ever admit this in public without dismissing the importance of such ambiguity as being of very minor consequence. Or else some other Muslim will have beef with it and he will steak his life.

5. Islam is built up on such a strong tradition of killing anyone who casts any fundamental doubt on minor details of thhe prohet and the quran that every Muslim child is taught from birth to be afraid of saying anything that creates any doubt.

6. The system, built up as a hotch-potch by a series of ulema and despotic leaders over 1000 years has numerous flaws but no one is allowed to question it. That is why you have the ridiculous spectacle of Muslims saying Islam is a religion of peace and "Muslims don't kill Muslims" even on days when 200 shias are slaughtered by Sunnis. Also ridiculous statements like "Islam respects other religions" even as you heard of Hindus being slaughtered, and "Islam respects women" even as a woman's word is rated less than that of a man.

7. As a final defence against dissent, anyone who points out any flaw is declared an "enemy of Islam" and the texts have detailed descriptions of what "enemies of Islam" will say and do. This ensures that anyone who says anything out of line is instantly branded an enemy.

If you know the history of Christianity you will know that the Christianity spread by teh Roman empire had many of these characteristics - especially in terms of blasphemy. It was only the 100 years war in Europe where Christians slaughtered Christians that finally led to a sidelining of the church from politics. No such thing has happened with Islam

So please...

[Mihaylo]

cross post

PROBLEM STARTS WHEN a mullah /clergy/baba misinterprets the teachings for personal gains.....quran doesn't preach killing in the name of jehad is a way to heaven,,,

Mihaylo - some errors in your interpretation.
1. Quran was first written down about 2-4 centuries after prophet Mohammad died. It was not written by Mohammad or by his followers at the time he was alive. This is a topic that any Muslim who wants to discuss will "steak" his life and cause him to become instant wajib ul cattle.

2. The original Quran is in undecipherable ancient Arabic that even modern Arabic readers cannot understand without separate training. 99% of Muslims are bullshitting when they say they read the Quran.

3. The Quran is not enough to figure out Islam. It is embellished by volumes of hadiths which are narratives of what Mohammad said and did during his life as noted by eyewitnesses. These too were clearly handed down as "tradition" and not actually written down or video recorded during his lifetime. These traditions include mundane details of things like whether to urinate standing up or sitting down based on what the Prophet was seen to do.

4. The hadiths were recorded by the narratives of multiple people and some of them are controversial. Some are accepted by some groups of Muslims and not by others. No Muslim will ever admit this in public without dismissing the importance of such ambiguity as being of very minor consequence. Or else some other Muslim will have beef with it and he will steak his life.

5. Islam is built up on such a strong tradition of killing anyone who casts any fundamental doubt on minor details of thhe prohet and the quran that every Muslim child is taught from birth to be afraid of saying anything that creates any doubt.

6. The system, built up as a hotch-potch by a series of ulema and despotic leaders over 1000 years has numerous flaws but no one is allowed to question it. That is why you have the ridiculous spectacle of Muslims saying Islam is a religion of peace and "Muslims don't kill Muslims" even on days when 200 shias are slaughtered by Sunnis. Also ridiculous statements like "Islam respects other religions" even as you heard of Hindus being slaughtered, and "Islam respects women" even as a woman's word is rated less than that of a man.

7. As a final defence against dissent, anyone who points out any flaw is declared an "enemy of Islam" and the texts have detailed descriptions of what "enemies of Islam" will say and do. This ensures that anyone who says anything out of line is instantly branded an enemy.

If you know the history of Christianity you will know that the Christianity spread by teh Roman empire had many of these characteristics - especially in terms of blasphemy. It was only the 100 years war in Europe where Christians slaughtered Christians that finally led to a sidelining of the church from politics. No such thing has happened with Islam

So please...

Shiv, you and I are in agreement. The quote you referred to in your post is not mine but Satpirishi's ( I have edited my post to reflect the same now). I was refuting his claim which essentially implied that the quoran is a benign book.

[pgbhat]

2. The original Quran is in undecipherable ancient Arabic that even modern Arabic readers cannot understand without separate training. 99% of Muslims are bullshitting when they say they read the Quran.

shiv sir, this documentary might interest you. Especially from 00:13:00 to 00:15:00 mins.
Science and Islam: Part 1: The Language of Science

[shiv]

cross post again

By making this well known assertion that "there is no such thing as moderate or radical Islam" you are only revealing the depth of your personal knowledge and are doing nothing to clear up the confusion that exists in the minds of 99% of people who believe that there is a moderate and radical version in Islam. Whether you like it or not, that is what people have been taught to think.

Ah OK, I guess if one has suitable definitions one can make consistent statements.

The question is whether, by going with the misconceptions of the 99%, you allowing the virus to lurk in the bloodstream, to mount an offensive when immunity is low. IMHO, if we cannot handle the truth, it is better to be silent rather than reinforce misconceptions.

Can you contribute to creating a suitable definition on a subject that has not been defined or even openly discussed even in the country that claims to know the most about "Freedom of speech" the US of A? Why don't you use this thread and say what you believe can be done to clear up the pseudosecular confusion that infects most of the world who seem to believe that there is a moderate Islam separate from radical Islam?

In fact I am gradually beginning to see another layer of obfuscation that has historically been added to the confusion by the use of dual terms Islam and Muslim. It is radical Muslim and moderate Muslim, praticing the same Islam? Can it be the same Islam that moderates and radicals practice? Or is one unIslamic? Who is unislamic, the moderate Muslim or the radical? What makes one of them unIslamic? The usual answer to this is "read the Quran". If you read the Quran the answer is no you should read it in the original Arabic. If you read it in the original Arabic you then have to know the hadiths. If you know the hadiths you then don't know what a sect of islam may believe or not believe and which is a "strong hadith" and which is a weak one.

These are the sets of confusing arguments that throw unsuspecting outsiders off guard.

[shiv]

shiv sir, this documentary might interest you. Especially from 00:13:00 to 00:15:00 mins.
Science and Islam: Part 1: The Language of Science

There are two bits of confabulation there.

The first is that the "text of the Quran" has not changed for 1400 years. The text was not written down 1400 years ago as per other refs I have read. The second is that "Anyone who knows Arabic can read the original Quran in Arabic". This is false. Arabic appears in many dialects and Iraqi dialects may not be understood by people in KSA, and all of that is different from the archaic text.

So you have, in a BeeBeeCee program about the language of science two unresearched, unscientific inaccuracies. Oh yes lots of people do read the Quran, but not in the "original Arabic".

[Pranav]

In fact I am gradually beginning to see another layer of obfuscation that has historically been added to the confusion by the use of dual terms Islam and Muslim. It is radical Muslim and moderate Muslim, praticing the same Islam? Can it be the same Islam that moderates and radicals practice? Or is one unIslamic? Who is unislamic, the moderate Muslim or the radical? What makes one of them unIslamic? The usual answer to this is "read the Quran". If you read the Quran the answer is no you should read it in the original Arabic. If you read it in the original Arabic you then have to know the hadiths. If you know the hadiths you then don't know what a sect of islam may believe or not believe and which is a "strong hadith" and which is a weak one.

These are the sets of confusing arguments that throw unsuspecting outsiders off guard.

The words of Allah as defined by the Quran, and the actions of Allah's prophet, as described in the "Sahih" Hadiths, define pure Islam. There are no major controversies as regards translations, there are several widely accepted ones.

[PratikDas]

---- self-deleted ----

U.A.E is a Muslim majority country and outside the scope of this thread.

[RajeshA]

Guys, please

the first post of this thread says:

This thread is NOT for

1. Discussing Indian Muslims
2. Discussing any Islamism on the Indian Subcontinent
3. Discussing any Islamophobia from an Indic Experience.
4. Discussing Islamic Theology
5. Discussing Islamic Terrorism in India
6. Talking disparagingly about personalities and symbols of Islam and about Muslims, from poster's PoV

Please look for some other thread for doing any analysis of Islam!