Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[d_berwal]

my opinion on Shuklaji, (just my 2 cents)

hope he can answer!!

- How did he command a troop/ a squadron in his regt. he lived with people who were ready to go with him in a fight to death with the same tincans he today is doing propaganda against. What did he tell his troops in a darbar ? how will he lead them and bring them back in tincans? Was he a officer material or he just passed his time in IA and was one of the lucky ones to pass through the system? As an officer did he do his duty to understand, learn and use his equipment provided for in the best of the way it could be used or he just went through the motions and enjoyed his stay in IA and as a opportunist as he is left IA at the first pretext?.....?

[d_berwal]

The fact is that Arjun production is marred by politics.. this is unacceptable after it has proven beyond a point.. there is no point at flagellation to inflict more injury to already sdre dhoti shiver psychology, and praising gung-ho about superiority of firang maals. I guess time has come to give back-kicks to all types of kick-backs.

Sir, India is about politics specially when money is involved, that is how our society is built ain't it?

[SaiK]

I don't agree so.. our society is not built on such politics, but is the case only after independence. So, whoever at helm are the real culprit who needs to stripped off all power.

Get the right people doing the right thing.. I can't accept politics in defence & security of nation.. zero tolerance here... if we had made mistakes, so be it. time to correct.

[d_berwal]

I don't agree so.. our society is not built on such politics, but is the case only after independence. So, whoever at helm are the real culprit who needs to stripped off all power.

Get the right people doing the right thing.. I can't accept politics in defence & security of nation.. zero tolerance here... if we had made mistakes, so be it. time to correct.

well i have the same thoughts so be it.

Reality is in bfr we all love and Waite for vikek to complete his sino-india scenario; in reality our goa and Karnataka govt plus dont know how many have been mining iron ore and shipping it to china to make them strong against us and all of this illegally and no one says anything!!! i bet the amount of iron ore we have illegally shipped off to china is more that equal to 2000 Arjuns minimum

[Austin]

Is there any basis to arrive at the conclusion that ERA on Arjun Mk2 is that of T-90?

Kanson , Check for Frontline or Hindu report by TSS , the DRDO persons mentions initially they would use the Russian ERA K-5 and later on they would use Indian ERA when its developed.

[rohitvats]

Arjun went to 45 and 75 both T-55

It is 43rd and not 45. And it was equipped with vijayantas.

[saptarishi]

Is there any basis to arrive at the conclusion that ERA on Arjun Mk2 is that of T-90?

Kanson , Check for Frontline or Hindu report by TSS , the DRDO persons mentions initially they would use the Russian ERA K-5 and later on they would use Indian ERA when its developed.

but isnt the kanchan armour an era

[d_berwal]

Is there any basis to arrive at the conclusion that ERA on Arjun Mk2 is that of T-90?

Kanson , Check for Frontline or Hindu report by TSS , the DRDO persons mentions initially they would use the Russian ERA K-5 and later on they would use Indian ERA when its developed.

Austin,

how does one know if ERA is K-5 or K-6 (no more elaboration) i guess only by the insert and some how i wanna believe some where during the Indian t-90 saga the inserts have changed, so hypothetically Arjun gets the same

and what is K-6? hint is look at the russian nomenclature for K-5 insert and its evolution.

The outside shave does not need to be changed!! that is my understanding!! but the inserts can keep on changing!!

[d_berwal]

Arjun went to 45 and 75 both T-55

It is 43rd and not 45. And it was equipped with vijayantas.

yes it is 43rd it was with T-55. Actually even couple of T-72etc etc etc. God only know what they wanted to do at one point they had at least 3 if not 4 different MBT's that 43 operated.

[d_berwal]

Kanson , Check for Frontline or Hindu report by TSS , the DRDO persons mentions initially they would use the Russian ERA K-5 and later on they would use Indian ERA when its developed.

but isnt the kanchan armour an era[/quote]

no kanchan is not ERA (ERA = Explosive Reactive Armour) kanchan has no explosive!

[abhinavjo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanchan_armour

Kanchan Armour is the name informally given to a modular composite armour indigenously developed by India. The Kanchan Armour got its name from Kanchan Bagh [1], Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, India where the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) is located.

Although the construction details of the armour remain a secret, it has been described as being made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled homogeneous armour (RHA). The number of layers may vary based on the user requirements. This armour is able to defeat APDS and HEAT rounds and is believed to withstand APFSDS[1].

[rohitvats]

my opinion on Shuklaji, (just my 2 cents)

hope he can answer!!

- How did he command a troop/ a squadron in his regt. he lived with people who were ready to go with him in a fight to death with the same tincans he today is doing propaganda against. What did he tell his troops in a darbar ? how will he lead them and bring them back in tincans? Was he a officer material or he just passed his time in IA and was one of the lucky ones to pass through the system? As an officer did he do his duty to understand, learn and use his equipment provided for in the best of the way it could be used or he just went through the motions and enjoyed his stay in IA and as a opportunist as he is left IA at the first pretext?.....?

That is not relevant to the debate. The demerits of a weapon system are not a reflction on his abilities or otherwise. Men like him led the troops in sure face of death-knowing fully well the shortcoming of their equipment or orders. 1962 and Kargil are replete with it.
Also, the debate at hand is also about the entire planning and execution behind T-90 deal. That Arjun is superior to T-90 is not even a question anymore. It is important that Arjun becomes to mechanized sector what LCA has become to domestic aviation. That makes Arjun programme all the more important.

[Austin]

how does one know if ERA is K-5 or K-6 (no more elaboration) i guess only by the insert and some how i wanna believe some where during the Indian t-90 saga the inserts have changed, so hypothetically Arjun gets the same

and what is K-6? hint is look at the russian nomenclature for K-5 insert and its evolution.

The outside shave does not need to be changed!! that is my understanding!! but the inserts can keep on changing!!

K-5 has itself gone through to many evolutions since the first time it was introduced in 1985 in Soviet Army , The modern one uses less explosive and have better ability to defeat slim long rods typically of Western APFSDS.

K-6 or Relikt has not been exported just seen recently on T-90MS and the properties of K-6 are such that it wont be exported in its true potential , its a real breakthrough viz a viz K-5.

[rohitvats]

yes it is 43rd it was with T-55. Actually even couple of T-72etc etc etc. God only know what they wanted to do at one point they had at least 3 if not 4 different MBT's that 43 operated.

In 93-94, when they first got arjuns, it was only vijayantas...they were part of fleur-de-lis (a cookie to
who figures this out)

[d_berwal]

That is not relevant to the debate. The demerits of a weapon system are not a reflction on his abilities or otherwise. Men like him led the troops in sure face of death-knowing fully well the shortcoming of their equipment or orders. 1962 and Kargil are replete with it.
Also, the debate at hand is also about the entire planning and execution behind T-90 deal. That Arjun is superior to T-90 is not even a question anymore. It is important that Arjun becomes to mechanized sector what LCA has become to domestic aviation. That makes Arjun programme all the more important.

Arjun is good but can we produce it in numbers no we cannot as of yet!!

T-90 was a sort of FMS!!! deal

what about T-72 who were bought in barter trade (Tanks for bananas)
and lets not bring in viayanta!

What the difference in Lca and Arjun, only one i can think of is Arjun has 2 operational regt. where as no operation Lca in IAF. Even when we get first LCA SQD, it will be like when 43 AR got its first Arjuns.

To be able to operationally support a state of art equipment in our weather condition is a different ball game, and be able to use it at will !!

I believe Arjun has reached and demonstrated more than what LCA today represents of domestic aviation (my opinion). T-90 will be the last imported MBT. Where as i cannot still say the same for military aviation.

We all here in BFR simplify things so much as if one is going to a showroom to buy a car!!

[d_berwal]

K-5 has itself gone through to many evolutions since the first time it was introduced in 1985 in Soviet Army , The modern one uses less explosive and have better ability to defeat slim long rods typically of Western APFSDS.

K-6 or Relikt has not been exported just seen recently on T-90MS and the properties of K-6 are such that it wont be exported in its true potential , its a real breakthrough viz a viz K-5.

The inserts used in K-6 have been available for last 7-8 yrs, and i believe the second lot of indian T-90 has different insert from K-5. Only the insert!! and that is one of the reason Arjun has it!!

Russians will sell us anything we ask for and pay for, its just that all of their toys dont pass our operational needs and Test's.

From BMP-3 to gizmos on T-90 with cameras and shotra, to Areana to !!!

What Russinas learnt from us in T-90 induction to Su-30 has been carried forward to their operational Army/ AF processes and Equipment.

[Austin]

The inserts used in K-6 have been available for last 7-8 yrs, and i believe the second lot of indian T-90 has different insert from K-5. Only the insert!! and that is one of the reason Arjun has it!!

Depends what you refer to as K-6 , if you mean Relikt then no if you mean K-6 an improvement of K-5 then yes.

Relikt has not been exported yet , its presence was only lately officially confirmed with T-90MS.

[d_berwal]

The inserts used in K-6 have been available for last 7-8 yrs, and i believe the second lot of indian T-90 has different insert from K-5. Only the insert!! and that is one of the reason Arjun has it!!

Depends what you refer to as K-6 , if you mean Relikt then no if you mean K-6 an improvement of K-5 then yes.

Relikt has not been exported yet , its presence was only lately officially confirmed with T-90MS.

I never said Relkit!! but the inserts on IA T-90 are simillart to inserts of Relkit, that is more of or nearer to what i wanted to say.

Relkit was first acknowledged on another prototype that was for S.K

[Kanson]

Is there any basis to arrive at the conclusion that ERA on Arjun Mk2 is that of T-90?

Kanson , Check for Frontline or Hindu report by TSS , the DRDO persons mentions initially they would use the Russian ERA K-5 and later on they would use Indian ERA when its developed.

Thanks, let me check. What is the ERA package weight in T-90S? Not sure, but remember that it is around 3 ton, is it true?

[Singha]

I have seen Merkavas with some addl armour panels kind of bolted on ... is that perceived as better than ERA? no western tank ever seems to use ERA till date.

if the Arjun mk2 10-round ready mag is a israeli import, a photo is here from merkava
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Mekava.htm

[Austin]

What is the ERA package weight in T-90S? Not sure, but remember that it is around 3 ton, is it true?

I can try to find out the weight of ERA layout but on T-90's ERA is not an added weight or an after thought to improve protection. The Russian design philosophy on armour is based on integral Composite Armour + ERA layout. While the West relied on only composite armour and ERA was an after thought based on experience in recent conflict. Both design houses wanted to achieve the same protection level and went about different approaches.

Considering Western tanks were already heavy adding ERA for protection had the cascading effect on Suspension , Mobility and ground pressure.

[Austin]

I have seen Merkavas with some addl armour panels kind of bolted on ... is that perceived as better than ERA? no western tank ever seems to use ERA till date.

Looks like bolt on type modular armour , so if an area of armour is damaged they can just unbolt it and replace the slab in the affected area.

[Austin]

no western tank ever seems to use ERA till date.

US Abrams TUSK upgrade has ERA kit and Chally has ERA protection on its front.

[Singha]

you mean the tiles on its front hull?
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photo ... l_city.jpg
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Challen ... 2-Iraq.jpg
it does seem to be a bolt on pkg as the tank below does not have it
http://www.army.mod.uk/images/image-scr ... nger_2.jpg

read somewhere the challenger does not have its ammo in blast protected silos with blow off panels(or maybe it only has the charges of its multi piece ammo and not the shells)...arjun and most MBTs have single piece ammo.
the Leo2 has protection for its bustle but not its 2nd magazine in the front left hull.
only the abrams and probably the merkava among western mbt stores all its ammo in protected silos and blast panels?
arjun mk2 would join this shortlist soon...

[Singha]

Rus probably hit upon this ERA thing as they expected to be fighting on the offensive through NATO urban areas in WW3 and would need street fighting against RPG/LAW teams for which ERA is good protection against HEAT weapons. iirc the germans had some kind of 'reserve militia' that would be armed with infantry weapons and stay behind to slow down the soviet advance while main heer army would move under nato strategy back to france & belgium slowly.

western tanks expected to be dhoti shivering and falling back to the channel until khan reinforcements arrived in force, in phased engagements with russian tank armies(OMG groups) and not really expecting to be mixing it up with infantry units or freedom fighters/insurgents/euro-talibs....so they emphasized protection over mobility to stand off against superior numbers.

[koti]

Thanks, let me check. What is the ERA package weight in T-90S? Not sure, but remember that it is around 3 ton, is it true?

It is true sir. However, it is the weight of the total array, Arjun might not use the entire array.
Each K-5 brick weighs around 10.5 Kgs.

[SaiK]

can't we use some kevlar/composite eras to reduce weight by at least half?

[koti]

We Can. Previous versions of ERA were light but they offer protection against only HEAT but not KE.
http://www.alternatewars.com/BBOW/Weapo ... ystems.htm
Can't confirm credibility of above link but some tit bits for those who like.

[rohitvats]

Rus probably hit upon this ERA thing as they expected to be fighting on the offensive through NATO urban areas in WW3 and would need street fighting against RPG/LAW teams for which ERA is good protection against HEAT weapons. iirc the germans had some kind of 'reserve militia' that would be armed with infantry weapons and stay behind to slow down the soviet advance while main heer army would move under nato strategy back to france & belgium slowly.

<SNIP>

IMO, it was more a case of advancement of Western APFSDS rounds which led to the development of ERA. The main focus area for ERA research it seems has been to defeat the Sabot round...with the induction of uranium based sabots being the ultimate game changer.

[koti]

Is there any basis to arrive at the conclusion that ERA on Arjun Mk2 is that of T-90?

Kanson , Check for Frontline or Hindu report by TSS , the DRDO persons mentions initially they would use the Russian ERA K-5 and later on they would use Indian ERA when its developed.

T-90's manufactured at HVF have Kaktus ERA. So it is more rational to suspect the ERA on Arjuns to be of this type.(Unless roos has objections to this)

[Austin]

you mean the tiles on its front hull?
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photo ... l_city.jpg
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Challen ... 2-Iraq.jpg
it does seem to be a bolt on pkg as the tank below does not have it
http://www.army.mod.uk/images/image-scr ... nger_2.jpg

Yes the one on the glacis and protecting the crew , unfortunately in Iraq a RPG-29 still penetrated the ERA and the driver lost both his legs and 2 crew injured.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... quiet.html

read somewhere the challenger does not have its ammo in blast protected silos with blow off panels(or maybe it only has the charges of its multi piece ammo and not the shells)...arjun and most MBTs have single piece ammo.
the Leo2 has protection for its bustle but not its 2nd magazine in the front left hull.
only the abrams and probably the merkava among western mbt stores all its ammo in protected silos and blast panels?
arjun mk2 would join this shortlist soon..

.

Barring M1 Abrams which has ammo stored in isolated ammo magazine by armored sliding doors and these magazines have blow off panels. All other Western tanks have most ammo stored inside of crew compartment in "armored" bins some have propellant charges stored in such bins, and ammo is unprotected or only part of ammo is stored similiar to M1 system , Arjun Mk1 have ammo stored in similar bins near the crew. Merk 4 has partial ammo stored in isolated ammo magazine in blow off panels.

We need to see how they are going to redesign Mk2 ammo storage in any significant way to afford complete isolation of ammo from crew or keep the way it is now in armoured bins.

Blow off panels works best when the ammo is completely isolated from crew ( or atleast thats the idea of the concept ) , So far no crew in Abrams have ever been lost to ammo fire due to hits.

Check Abrams ammo storage
http://img38.imagefra.me/img/img38/7/9/ ... 8ae9c2.jpg

[Austin]

IMO, it was more a case of advancement of Western APFSDS rounds which led to the development of ERA. The main focus area for ERA research it seems has been to defeat the Sabot round...with the induction of uranium based sabots being the ultimate game changer.

Thats true , the effects of Heavy ERA on Western Longer Slender round and to reduce its effectiveness was one of the motivation of Heavy ERA.

Check this document
Protection performance of dual flying oblique plates against a yawed long-rod penetrator

http://www.ciar.org/ttk/mbt/papers/pape ... e.2006.pdf

[rohitvats]

^^^Thanks.

[Singha]

until the western mbts used 105mm cannon I think the Rus were competitive in armour and gun power. but the development of the rheinmetall L44 120mm cannon , new long rod apds ammo for leopard and abrams , superior night thermals and superior chobham armour around the same time were the game changers whose advantage continues to this day.

[Austin]

with the induction of uranium based sabots being the ultimate game changer.

Although DU rounds affords better penetration then comparable Tungsten rounds and has the ability to burn upon impact which means it can cause fire post penetration , but DU rounds are known to be Genotoxic and most certainly Carcinogen , if fine powders of DU enters in human system it has the possibility of long term DNA damage and most certainly DU rounds are known to cause high probability of cancer and expensive affair to decontaminate

[Philip]

The "F" mag had a report on the Arjun-Mk 3,which is being developed,which should possess a 3 man crew,integrated turret with ERA like the new Le Clerc turret,auto-loader with separate ammo compartment,larger main gun able to fire missiles,etc.,etc.Talk and dates for the requirements for the FMBT seem to have evaporated according to the mag.While this is a very welcome development,if it is a reliable report,then the A-3 should possess many features which we've been asking for several years now.The number and composition of the Army's armoured regiments need to be reassessed in the light of new threats from China and Pak.

I mentioned not too long ago about the greater force-multiplying effect of attack helos over armour and stats supporting the thesis.The recent announcement of more medium and attack helos to be acquired, seems to me that in view of the difficult terrain,lack of infrastriucture in the region,helo acquisition for logistic and attack and utilitarian requirements are being given top priority.

[Singha]

I read somewhere tungsten can actually penetrate better than DU if the velocity goes beyond some high number like 1800 m/s which is currently not the case because thats the muzzle velocity and 2km out , it will be slower....maybe 1400-1500m/s range due to air resistance.
in future if better guns and charges are used maybe this fascination with DU will go from khan as well...always the litterbug

[Surya]

Talk and dates for the requirements for the FMBT seem to have evaporated according to the mag

Oh really I am so sad and shocked. How could they?? All the experience from Huffy and Tuffy - now what will those scientists do??

must be the non availability of a 145 mm gun

or maybe they found out they could not find 4.2 inch Indians in sufficient numbers to fit in the turretless wonder they had on design

[rohitvats]

^^^Evil Surya.

Having said that, the recent article on Arjun and potential for future upgrades (the Bharat Pack) makes be beleive that a version of Arjun will end up FMBT or what everyou want to name it.

[Singha]

yes methinks a dose of reality has crept into high places. arjun mk3 with a unmanned turret (if they see the world going for it) or with a next-gen manned turret might be called FMBT. the t90 exposes what we can expect of the king eagle or black eagle T-100 if we ever dip our toe in that swamp...we'd be lucky to escape with undies intact.

Arjun = Mrityunjaya "victory over death"