Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Nov 2011 09:00

He told us in bay area few years ago.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 Nov 2011 03:24

(1) Looking at Pak and China separately as potential aggressors - is only excusable as propaganda. If this is extended to tangible changes on ground such as retreating show of force from the border to a certain depth simply to gain PA confidence - then its delusional and potentially fatal.

(2) The "prioritization" theory has caused as many fiascos as collateral strategies that try to do everything at once. Prioritization theories are typically put forward by interest groups who either do not have the vision to see interlinked nature of problems and issues or have a hidden agenda to use such a frontal stance to carry out the hidden agenda.

From genuine concerns of "prioritization" we can distinguish the lack-of-perception/hidden agenda group - IF the "prioritizers" insist on completely conditional sequentiality. That is, insist that A must be completely achieved before B can be started off. There have been plenty of such stuff from various extensions of the current regime - "prosperity before any penalizing action on Pak" etc.

(3) There is no reason to trust the PA - because PA itself is no longer a single homogenous entity. PA has extensions and overlaps into both the Paki feudal society as well as the Dawa society - and all three are involved in a national project of defrauding both their own as well foreign countries. Behind each lies external and internal interest groups each willing and intending to utilize their respective frontmen's foibles to further their own targets.

Behind all three faces of the Paki regime Dawaists, PA, feudals - are pan-Islamists, transnational criminal networks, as well as international Islamic regimes as well as perhaps even secret services of the "west" and China.

(4) How strongly tied up are the various levels of the PA- is not clearly known. Given the consistent failures and foul-ups from Indian intel side where and whenever violence from Islamist side is concerned [26/11 for example] shows up the possibility that the intel network that spans Pak and India - perhaps has spawned an independent character of its own that feeds suitable info into high up ears to facilitate hidden objectives. In fact given the long past presence of British intel - and then its successor imperial bastion in IOR - US intel in the subcontinent, and especially in the territories currently called Pakistan, it is entirely possible that both sides are made to dance to the information flow manufactured in these two countries.

Under such a scenario - its all the more necessary to egg Pak even more - even if the main target is China. No action against can be taken against China while keeping the Paki army free and and not engaged in a survival struggle of their own. The key to China is needling Pakis from the "western" borders [the vague nation between Baloch and Afghanistan] even more to keep them tied up so that the Chinese and the PA have difficulty in coordinating their attacks.

There are no real priorities - they have to be treated as two positional faces of the same enemy - on whose behalf the traditional imperialists might also be playing a disinfo game.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Nov 2011 03:08

There seems to be a lot happening in the CPC. There appears to be increasing polarization and factional competition. It is possible that CPC may spawn two different future organizations and multiparty competition in the longer term. But the path to that is crooked. It is indeed possible that the upper echelons decide to start up something tangible in war terms to postpone this outcome. But it would be a mistake imagine that activating any Paki stuff is not going to be part of that tangible. Pak would very much be part of the plan. No amount of appeasement will help.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 26 Nov 2011 22:23

there seems to be a sustained interest in "mass protests" in India. first the coterie around AH use the frustration of the masses to launch their movement. now in TN, we are seeing a sustained assault on not just one plant but the broader nuclear agenda of the nation: nuclear power, ATV, even Thermal power projects.

all of this under the garb of "safety", but in reality a sustained attack on the infra/energy development agenda of the nation, with ramifications for the strategic balance of the country b/c projects like nuke submarine are intricately involved in the nuclear agenda of the country. there is a very clear and dangerous trend here. "non violent protest" has now become an excuse to hold the nation's interests on the guillotine for blackmail value.

is there a way to predict the "rise" of these movements before it happens? could we analyze a spectrum of the press/media/video/etc releases coming from certain sections, to dissect what they are saying and what they will try to do in the future? what is worrying is that the "protests" all follow the blueprint of Gandhi's actions leading up to 1947. it's like the modern day imperialists are creating a thousand different "protests" to drain the energy from any genuine mass movement and thereby keep the population unfocused. and as a side advantage, these "protests" are carefully aimed at neutering the country's power and consequently continue to keep the balance tipped on the side of the imperialists.

more importantly, they've realized that there exists a certain weakness in the Indian people for the Gandhian "protests" and expertly exploiting that emotional affinity. the demands of these "protests" will continue to get more and more overtly anti-national. sooner or later we are going to see "protests" for "peaceful autonomy" coming from certain sections of the population. and the media, owned and managed as it is by the imperialists, will faithfully depict them as "non violent patriotism"....

we are headed, IMVHO, in a direction of more and more such manufactured "protests".

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Nov 2011 22:25

devesh ji,
I had written about a certain Indian "successful" dignitary in an European country - as reported in the media - giving out on how ashamed he felt when harangued about "corruption" in India, after a certain seminar abroad. The post drawing attention to this on the forum was discussed a lot. I was perhaps thought of as someone condoning Indian "corruption" when I challenged this view - as pandering up to a western agenda, that has been going on for several years [almost 6 years at that point by my watch].

My point was that thsi was part of the same capital extraction process seen in every country in its early stages of capitalist growth - a period of robber baron entrepreneurship - so intensely seen and noted in each and every European country and every holy piece of soil touched by their holy feet. But more pertinent was the fact that this corruption was continuing in its most pernicious form, almost a semi-legal and gov+regime condoned form - utilizing extra-public-gov-audited economic gaze, in these very same western countries. Why do their banks and tax-havens [a majority are ex-colonies of Brits - and many still legally and otherwise tied up with the island, but free of British internal taxpayers intervention] accept and provide free shelter to rogue money from countries like India? Why do they use middlemen and mediators to cut big-biz deals with Indian counterparts?

I am not condoning or criticizing such capital formation - because whether such formation is evil or holy depends on value judgment. However, I had predicted that this campaign is being mounted from the western economies as part of a global financial war to open up growing markets, and in the process a realignment of the indigenous capitalists is being sought after. The pressure will be on to bring in local capitalists into partnerships and subservient expatriation of profits - and force out those who refuse to do so. Corruption slaps will be targeted at every sector that refuses to fall into line.

In the process the same struggle will be reflected within the regime and political parties in power. Those who resist such a mutually beneficial or even comprador bourgeosie status, will be pressurized to get out of business - political or financial.

The real targets are such an alignment of indigenous capitalists, softening up the other centres of resistance within society and admin - parts of upper level bureaucracy, and cultural forces that do not see eye to eye with the imperialist ideological tools of the proselytizing branches of the Abrahamic. Note that - lower bureaucracy, or the judges within admin are less of a target - under various ingenuous excuses [infeasibility because of large numbers, judges have a special status where they can only be judged by their special-above-common-Indian-status-peers onlee]. The main target of the corruption movement is the senior bureaucracy - who often obstruct the overall grand political visions, external or internal or a combination of both. The other target is of course the religious institutions and funding mechanisms of the culture that is seen as an obstruction by the handmaidens of imperialism - the proselytizers. Never ever we have any such targeting of their own institutions.

So who is being targeted in the anti-corruption movements, how and who are given a soft landing - should clearly reveal the driving investors in such movements. The amazing revolutionary organizational skills shown by a spontaneous uprising of tech-savvy "youthful generation" about this latest gimmick on "anti-corruption" was nowhere to be seen after 26/11. Nowhere.

Is it that difficult to see the pattern!

member_20546 · Post by **member_20546** » 28 Nov 2011 00:56

devesh wrote:we are headed, IMVHO, in a direction of more and more such manufactured "protests".

Anyone having a means and know how to manufacture protests can easily achieve results(disruption) but they may not be lucky every time. In the cases that do, it cannot work without the backing of a power centre. These are side effects of democracy. In the developing/underdeveloped world, democracy is the main entry point that facilitates the agenda of the neo-colonial masters. To prevent, population as a whole have to evolve a couple of generations. By then the neo-colonialists would have already eaten the pie. My understanding of the current chaos is, the Indian economy is headed towards a big slump or it will be made to slump. The elite that control the world have decided its time for chaos and out of that order will arise and new cycle starts. Get ready for a roller coaster ride. All the protests are just a manifestation of the impending doom. I hope the power centres in India make sure we come out of it with clothes on.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 28 Nov 2011 02:11

Who are the elite that control the world?

member_20546 · Post by **member_20546** » 28 Nov 2011 02:24

johneeG wrote:Who are the elite that control the world?

Its the main stakeholders of the Bretton Woods. Its a combination of the controllers of dollar fiat and the western mil-ind-complex. They happen to control the technology and weapons and the money. Through that they set the world's agenda. They choose whom to fix, whom to prop. Country like India, can hope to have a piece of the pie in the future. Is it going to 50-100-200 years ? Don't know!! China with all its bank balance is only used as a money lender. So money itself doesnt change the game. It has to be more, more than just wealth. Absolute devastating destructive power and wealth will do it.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Nov 2011 20:24

X-Posting

RamaY wrote:
kvjayan wrote:"Anti-KKNPP protests take on pluralistic note"

http://expressbuzz.com/states/tamilnadu ... 37097.html

Muslim and Dalit outfits jumped into the protestors bandwagon considering the humanitarian crisis.
This is the new definition of pluralism - Muslim, Christian and Dalits. We saw the same logic during AH protests.

Dalit identity is carved as a separate Hindu identity, but against Hindu resurgence. Divide and rule. We now can understand history better.

This is the vote base INC is trying to build and hold on to thru Muslim-pondering/reservations, Christian conversions and secularism, and Dalit reservations and NREGA.

How to bring Dalits back into Hindu fold, in a mutually beneficial manner? It is the Hindu society that gave them preferential treatment (Reservations system) at a cost to it as a re-conciliatory measure. Where did it fail? Why don't Dalits see that?

Can more Mayavatis all around the nation be the solution?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Nov 2011 21:21

Theo_Fidel wrote:RamaY,

This is OT. But those three communities together are 80%+ of the population in this area. Keep that in mind before labeling things as non-Indian.
WRT Dalits, no one has yet been able to answer how 60%+ of native population 'managed' to 'classify' themselves as bottom of the barrel community. This too is dharma.

You can reply in GDF if you want.

I will start with a modern comparison before going into our Hindu society.

Recently we have seen anti-WallStreet protests in USA. There too the majority population is rebelling against the existing elite denomination of Bankers (Vaisyas) + Congress (Brahmanas) that gives TARP to big businesses + Military (Kshatriya) that has unending military campaigns and larger than life budgets.

If you look around this is the same case even with PRC, which is a communist regime (meaning people power).

To be pluralistic, please check any Islamic nation, including Pakistan, to understand who gets the benefit of "state-power".

Bharatiya society is no different when it comes to its social structure. It is simply impossible to have a state structure that looks like reverse pyramid. This is conceptual truth of society.

Coming to Dalit issue - That natural structure of society is (in the past as well as present) being exploited by vested-interests to create havoc and destroy Bharatiya stability.

My question is how to bring in the Dalit identity to play a constructive role in Hindu society?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 28 Nov 2011 21:28

things will start getting interesting when you have people with one "brahmin" parent and one "shudra" parent. what is their classification? I know of a cousin in the extended family who married a "shudra" woman. what are their offspring? "brahmin" or "shudra"? in my generation, in the extended family, at least a half of the marriages have been outside of "brahmin". this is a record. till now, it was strictly rules/regulations when it came to marriages. but the present generation in their 20's has made a drastic leap. so, what are their offspring?

there is a reason why I am bring this up. if there is no "pure blood" "brahmin", then who or what is a "shudra"? the identity of "Dalit" is explicitly based on a separation from the "brahmin". if the "brahmin" himself/herself is non-existent b/c they've mixed with others, then what is the definition of the "Dalit"?

there will be increasing clamor around "Dalit autonomy" in the coming years. be sure of that. what we need to realize is that the interested parties have started realizing that the very foundation of "Dalit" separatism is collapsing. they need to find a beneficial "conclusion" to the Dalit fault-line before the entire edifice of "brahmin-dalit" collapses. if they wait too long, the words "brahmin" and "dalit" will loose their meaning and they know it.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Nov 2011 23:14

Devesh garu,

I know. The X-gen in my family too is going this route. The problem is these so-called Brahmins are so secularized that they are Crypto-Christians

There is little hope in this strategy

I hope self-aware Brahmins lead this inter-marriage system so they can lead the Hindu resurgence. My contribution in this plan is to make as many Hindus self-aware as possible. Rest is left to them.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Nov 2011 00:21

RamaY,

These 'rebellions' you are are actually an empowerment of these bottom of the barrel communities. There is SDRE and then there is SDRE for even below those SDRE communities. In villages esp. here in South TN the vast majority are deeply discriminated against. As long as this discrimination continues there will be a Dalit type society. Every culture deals with this problem. In the US it is Blacks and now lower class Hispanics. In Europe it is Gypsies and Africans. India is unique in that the majority of our population is in fact discriminated against by society.

As has been pointed out marriage out is the only effective escape mechanism. IMHO till the majority of out population 80%+ does not freely inter-marry across religious/caste/state lines this Dalit problem will be there. We all have a personal choice too at that point.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Nov 2011 00:27

First of all we need to understand if the problem is real. Then we should find our own solution to this problem, not some colonial solution.

I have no issue with our own culture dealing with this problem. My issue with Christianity/Secularism fiddling with this issue to can keep the Hindu Bharat down. And Dalits playing for the external interests and going against Indian interests.

I am all for the Hindu Dalits and Sudras taking our the political reigns of our nation; as long as they are independent in their minds and dharmic in nature. However I am against the Dalit-minoritism that panders to colonial interests. There is a big difference between them.

The inter religious marriage will be useless to the society as long as Abrahamic faiths remain predatory.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Nov 2011 00:30

Western norms cannot be used in other countries and gives false picture.
Indian social order has free norms for social order and all the western norms are just recent and are still fake.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Nov 2011 01:00

India cannot follow any other country. Western society is not a role model for India,

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Nov 2011 02:22

RamaY,

You are dancing around. What is the place of Dalits (a name they prefer to the upper community Harijan or Achuth) in Hindu Dharma. Remember they are vast majority. They should have the freedom to decide what dharma is and what is not. And what all other Hindus should follow as mainstream. They are the mainstream all else is fluff including Chritian, Islam and the Kanchi Sankaracharya.

A real India would be run by Mayawati types with everyone else marginalized. Varnasi & Hardiwar will follow a Dharma decided by leaders from her community and the rest of us will have to follow. Including the Pope.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 Nov 2011 02:31

Theo,

where are you getting this "majority is discriminated against"? 60% is Dalit? that is news to me. you are assuming that everybody in manual labor is "Dalit".....that is not true. even in financial terms, there are manual labor communities which are richer than the "brahmins". you are grouping together a whole chunk of Indian population as if they are a cohesive and unipolar group with uniform developmental status/perceptions in and of society....this is wrong. there is no group in India which can claim 60% of population as being uniform in their views and customs.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 29 Nov 2011 02:47

Guy doesn't even know basic facts but is always ready to pontificate to Hindus.

Since when were they the "vast majority"?

This ain't Sunday school where BS can be passed off for facts.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Nov 2011 02:49

Theo_Fidel wrote:RamaY,

You are dancing around. What is the place of Dalits (a name they prefer to the upper community Harijan or Achuth) in Hindu Dharma. Remember they are vast majority. They should have the freedom to decide what dharma is and what is not. And what all other Hindus should follow as mainstream. They are the mainstream all else is fluff including Chritian, Islam and the Kanchi Sankaracharya.

A real India would be run by Mayawati types with everyone else marginalized. Varnasi & Hardiwar will follow a Dharma decided by leaders from her community and the rest of us will have to follow. Including the Pope.

First go and demand your Pope to dance to majority Christian Dharma and then we will talk.

The Christian/Secularist propaganda coined the term Dalit and you proclaim that Bharatiya Harijans prefer that name?

Aahaa.. You want majority rule when it suits you and minority rule when it doesn't? If the majority wants to decide what is Dharma, then why should Hindu-majority India should be sensitive of Abrahamic-minorities?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Nov 2011 02:59

Devesh,

I will admit 'dalit' is a catch all statement. Maybe I should call it 'dalit' type grouping to avoid straying into caste nomenclature, something I'm strictly opposed to. All kinds of different communities are lumped together. But they themselves mostly have no problem identifying as Dalit. Here in South TN large chunks of the Fishing community identify as Dalit even though they are not classified as that. The problems they face at least for this discussion are largely common, all the way from access to education, land, travel, privilege and power.

The question is not one of economic/work status but one of class and custom and ultimately marriage. All census studies show that the various 'dalit' type groupings put together constitute 60% of India.

The question still stands how did they end up classified as bottom of the barrel. And should they not decide what mainstream Dharma is.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Ramay are you certain you represent majority India. I put it to you that you do not. More than elections prove my point.

I put it to you, you are a minority, just like me. Learn to act like one. And you have no right to tell my community how to behave. We answer to the constitution of India, that is it.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 Nov 2011 03:19

now you are getting into Identity making. I am not opposed to it. my own explorations in the subject are still elementary. but I will say that the identity politics of present day India was kick started by the British. India is still reeling from the effects of British manipulations. most important of these was the de-legitimization of advocacy "unions" and "groups" for labor workers like weavers, spinners, fisherman, etc.

I am reading a book on this right now and it is a fascinating read: "Transition to a Colonial Economy: Weavers, Merchants, and Kings in South India - 1720 to 1800". I recommend it to everybody. long before the Commies or the Marxists or the PWG/Naxals, India had unions and labor representation advocating for the labor classes to the "rulers" and business classes. Europe had to go through bloody revolutions and class struggles against entrenched aristocracies and monarchies to get these basic rights. in South India, which was relatively free from the worst excesses of Islamic rule, one of the focus points of any regime was to maintain this balance between the interests of the traders and the working classes.

the British undid this social order by diverting the merchants' interests to suit their own interests. this made the merchants answerable only to the British. once they were under British umbrella, the compact between Labor-Ruler-Merchant/Businessman broke down. this is the starting point, in South India, of gradual "pushing down" of labor classes into "Dalit" category. from this point on, the compromise between elites and labor totally breaks down, eventually resulting in a "brahmin"/"dalit" dichotomy...

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Nov 2011 03:21

Theo_Fidel wrote: Ramay are you certain you represent majority India. I put it to you that you do not. More than elections prove my point.

I put it to you, you are a minority, just like me. Learn to act like one. And you have no right to tell my community how to behave. We answer to the constitution of India, that is it.

TF garu,

I am always in majority as I am Bharatiya

, and I am not scared of the majority rule. If you read the constitution and the constituent-assembly debates, you will know that current constitution of India is nothing but BRAmbedkar-Smriti.

This is not the first hindu-harijan written smriti written in our history. Majority of our veda-mantras, puranas, upanishads, smritis were written by Hindu harijans. We don't need to learn how to respect various sections of our Hindu society, from predatory abrahamic religionists and their leftist and secularist slaves.

You are the one who brought the rhetorical Pope in to the discussion. I just asked a simple question - "Can you please specify a moral/human cause that is accepted by Pope per majority wish?". No issue, if you cant specify one.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Nov 2011 03:25

Theo_Fidel wrote:I will admit 'dalit' is a catch all statement. Maybe I should call it 'dalit' type grouping to avoid straying into caste nomenclature, something I'm strictly opposed to. All kinds of different communities are lumped together. But they themselves mostly have no problem identifying as Dalit. Here in South TN large chunks of the Fishing community identify as Dalit even though they are not classified as that. The problems they face at least for this discussion are largely common, all the way from access to education, land, travel, privilege and power.

Dalit is the identity given and propagated by EJs and their slave-secularists to the sections of Hindu society that fell under their influence. It is an effort to create a new crypto-christian identity using this name. That is why they do not want to call it Hindu-Harijans. Harijan is same as Brahmin - it is just the name of kula - lineage.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 Nov 2011 03:42

"Dalit" is one of the vaguest terms ever invented. I have a member of the family who works as a tailor in a small cloth shop in Warangal. by birth he is "brahmin" born into a family of priests. in reality, his profession and way of life afford him as much luxury as any other guy working in labor and doing low paying jobs.....is he a Dalit? I have seen official classified "Backward Castes" who are financially and even socially much better off than this guy. who is the "dalit" and who is the "brahmin"?

at the same time, I am sure there are real horror stories of abuses based on caste.....IMVHO, the issue is not framed based on a stable pact which emphasizes equality and betterment. it is based on "identity creating and preservation" for the cause of preserving special privileges that gradually accumulate to elites in any grouping?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Nov 2011 03:48

RamaY,

I don't answer to the Pope and any agreement between my & his proposals are purely accidental. For that matter the majority of Catholics themselves don't listen to the Pope. Contraceptive usage is 100% amongst Indian Catholics. Abortion is not even an issue here.

BTW you will be glad to know, the pope has finally agreed with the majority that the Earth is round though the Bible says it is flat and supported on pillars. Major issue for a long time.

Dalits don't see it that way. This is not dissimilar to the way Uttaranchal got renamed to Uttarakhand. You are trying to deny them their own name even. They have no desire to pretty up their name.
------------------------------------------------------

Devesh,

Agree Dalit is a vague term. Do you have a better one.

For every 'privileged' Dalit there are 1000 dealing with horrors of being bottom of the barrel in rural India. Why do you focus on the privileged few.

By population proportions, 25% of your friends should be Dalit, 25% of Doctors should be Dalit, 25% of MP's should be Dalit, 1/4 of you teachers should have been Dalit and every fourth house on your street should be Dalit. This almost never happens.

If we look at the larger Dalit type groups, They should be so dominant everywhere that it should be hard to even see other communities in India. Yet this is not true.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Nov 2011 04:13

It is useful to see how our people are divided. I always hesitate to post such things but in this case I will do so. Not that this is in a modern cosmopolitan city. In a rural town their heads would have been separated from their bodies for violating a caste wall. This too is dharma.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... 615879.ece

The Communist Party of India (Marxist), instrumental in demolishing the wall that divided the Dalits from the upper caste Hindus, hailed the temple entry as a “historic” event. “We are entering the temple premises for the first time after 1989,” said Mr. Ponnaiah.

The Dalits used to offer prayers at the peepul tree on the temple premises during the festival of the Karuppasamy temple (belonging to the Dalits). The devotees, who perform the role of Lord Karuppasamy, Vairavan and Agni, used to go around the peepul tree as a ritual. “Our belief is that the ritual will keep the evils out of our village. But it was stopped after people threw stones at us during the festival in 1989,” he said. Since then, there were clashes between the two groups, followed by the construction of the wall. After the CPI(M) and the Tamil Nadu Untouchability Eradication Front (TNUEF) took up the issue, the district administration demolished the wall. However, tension prevailed in the village and a permanent police picket was posted.

Meanwhile, Vishwa Hindu Parishad district president Chinmaya Somasundaram and his long-time friend and former Aavin general manager K. Athimoolam, who had relatives on both sides, began fresh negotiations between the Dalits and the upper caste Hindus.

“After nearly two months of talks, we were able to bring peace. This [the temple entry] has been the demand of the Dalits for nearly seven decades,” Mr. Somasundaram said. The SP offered all possible help to further the talks.

In this image upper community women are wailing at the entry of Dalits into temple in Madurai 2 weeks ago! Yes 2 weeks!
At the same time other upper community members welcomed the Dalits in.

Here is an image of the Dalits.

Note that there is Zero difference in appearance between both SDRE looking communities. Genetic differences do exist but less than most people think.

It is easy to open a temple but how does one change the position of the wailing community.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Nov 2011 04:19

^ TFji

I am glad that Pope finally saw some light. I wonder what happened to all the popes who preferred to remain in the shadow of the book. I don't care what one want to believe or not as long as they do not insult my native Dharma.

You agree with Devesh that Dalit is a vague term, yet blame me for denying them their own name

. The original name is Hindu (with a Kula=lineagenext to it if they prefer).

Why is it my problem that I do not have the prescribed % of Harijan this and Harijan that? Now should I make sure that my street is to have prescribed % of India to be a (sic) secularist? What kind of nonsense is it?

Why should we need larger Dalit type group, when we have a more superset identification of Hindu and Bharatiya? If Kula/Caste is a wrong identification/grouping (for it lead to Brahmin domination of others

) why should we encourage another nonsense to satisfy western induced vested interests?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 Nov 2011 04:20

"for every privileged Dalit, there are 1000 dealing with horrors"

I question the validity of this statement. seriously, I do. I know of a Dalit family on a personal level who are agriculturalists. one of the sons in the family owns a taxi company and recently got married. another became a constable for a while and now owns a small time labor contracting company. other sons are all equally either entrepreneurial or have some kind of a well paying middle class job.

another personal relationship is with an auto-wallah who recently got married and is expanding into a grocery store with his cousin.

the "maid service" in my colony in Hyd is dominated by a single large family with close to 10 women who are involved. they charge 1250/house/month and each works at least 3 houses. compute for yourselves how much money they make. the men all work in the family in their own jobs. their kids go to the same school that I went to as a kid and they are making friendships with the kids of "landowners" in the colony.

Theo,

I understand what you mean by "abuses". I am not living in a fantasy world, and have no doubt that those stories are true. but I categorically reject the 1:1000 ratio that you've put up. and also you are seriously overestimating the "brahmin" component. I am personally very well versed with this situation. although, I don't know much about it in TN. but in Telangana portions of AP, the "brahmin" did not lead a luxurious life. my generation is the first generation which has seen "prosperity" since childhood. my parents' generation spent their childhoods in studio compounds packed with 5-8 people with a common bathroom service for 3-5 such families. there are still priests in the family who still continue to live on in rural areas where the family traditionally was employed. and they live in huts. this is not an exaggeration. they live in 1 room huts with "communal" open-space bathrooms with the rest of the villagers.

it is only the hard work of my parents generation which allowed them to move away from such conditions. when I analyze the present day "dalit" situation from the perspective of my family's background, I simply don't see why "I" need to take on my shoulders the responsibility of "oppressing" millions of people. I assure you, the last 4 generations in my family had more to worry about how to feed themselves than how to scheme and plan about "oppressing" somebody else...

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 Nov 2011 04:32

about temple entry, the sooner this schism breaks down, the better. once again, there are differences between various regions of the country. in T areas, the non-entry problem hasn't existed in recent memory. there might have been cases of it, but none in recent memory. on side note, the Chennakesava swamy temple in Kondapur was initially built with the help of funds from a "shudra" farmer several generations ago. I know b/c my side of the family was endowed by the "shudra" farming family to be priests and take care of that temple. the rules and regulations of "ownership" and "care" have changed under the purview of modern governing systems, but there is still a tradition of a remnant of that family always being there for major occasions.

I hope that it breaks down wherever it is still prevalent. as for the "wailers".....I have no sympathy for them. let them wail. how long will they wail? they will stop, if not today, then tomorrow.....

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 29 Nov 2011 04:35

The heartwarming smiles of joy and devotion in the lower picture will provide the answer to end the wailing which in any case might be a selective portrayal of a vocal minority for propaganda purposes.

There are always exceptions but you must be aware that the ignorance of denying temple entry is well understood in Hindu dna from aeons ago. All the hadiths so to speak are against exclusion.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Nov 2011 04:47

KLNMurthy wrote:The heartwarming smiles of joy and devotion in the lower picture will provide the answer to end the wailing which in any case might be a selective portrayal of a vocal minority for propaganda purposes.

There are always exceptions but you must be aware that the ignorance of denying temple entry is well understood in Hindu dna from aeons ago. All the hadiths so to speak are against exclusion.

^ +1.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 Nov 2011 04:49

There are always exceptions but you must be aware that the ignorance of denying temple entry is well understood in Hindu dna from aeons ago. All the hadiths so to speak are against exclusion.

I am scratching my head. what was "well understood"? and why are the hadiths a part of this discussion?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 29 Nov 2011 05:20

devesh wrote:
There are always exceptions but you must be aware that the ignorance of denying temple entry is well understood in Hindu dna from aeons ago. All the hadiths so to speak are against exclusion.

I am scratching my head. what was "well understood"? and why are the hadiths a part of this discussion?

RamaY garu's hi-liting hopefully clarifies things on "hadiths"--simply a way of saying "authoritative religious works" .What was well-understood and sadly forgotten often is that acts like excluding any devotee from temple are due to ignorance only.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Nov 2011 05:23

devesh ji,
I think he indirectly referred to classical texts of our own. The fact of the matter is - if one really starts looking up the term as it is used now - it cannot be traced much further back than Babasaheb. In none of the classical texts the word is used as a permanent by-birth category or even describes any jaati/varna combination. Only one of the many competing law-texts - the Manusmriti, (from among a host of others - like Apastambha, Gautam, Baudhayan which had entirely different things to say, and I am sure TF garu knows about Apastamabha whooa ppears to have been quite popular in the south), became Sir William Jones' favourite. He complained to his great friend Macaulay about the insidious pundits who corrupted the pure laws of Manu.

Obviously, the pundits were sons-of-the-soil who knew very well that Manu was just one among many and that Indian tradition had always distinguished between sastra-sammata and deshachar, that laws were always being updated according to needs of times and that the other texts also had their own following and presence in the reality of India.

But Jones's need for Manu was obvious - because Macaulay actually used Jones's opinions in trying to justify the British imperial attempt at reforming heathen laws, especially the Hindu. There are tons of papers on how the British attempted to revive an outdated and possibly dubious [in the sense that it could have elements of authors own personal ideals and not necessarily that of actual practice of his time] legal code based on textual claims of the neo-Sanskritist-orientalists.

The Brits were not fools - and they knew exactly what they were doing. They were utilizing and fossilizing very dubious and always challenged claims of social hierarchy within the Indian system.

The thing is - the real solution to this problem is a revival and opening up of the original texts, without selection and editing and restriction to particular texts onlee.

The term dalit is as abstract as the term brahmin, for neither is well defined. There are always crashing counter sub-identities visible, that makes it impossible to classify all members of the category with a small and same set of characteristics. Both were coined with specific political aims of mobilizing disparate groups.

Such identity constructions always start out as bulb moments in the imagination of ambitious social manipulators, who deliberately keep it abstract and wide enough so that they can mobilize a lot of people behind their personal search for power and recognition. This is why there is an absolute refusal to look into the innumerable subdivisions that become obvious when one looks at the definition of the term. its of the same political imaginative discourse as that of Marxian class.

Try to apply it in reality, you will never see the boundaries. For when one looks at real people, there are always overlaps and fuzziness of sharp borders.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Nov 2011 06:00

devesh wrote:I understand what you mean by "abuses". I am not living in a fantasy world, and have no doubt that those stories are true. but I categorically reject the 1:1000 ratio that you've put up. and also you are seriously overestimating the "brahmin" component. I am personally very well versed with this situation. although, I don't know much about it in TN. but in Telangana portions of AP, the "brahmin" did not lead a luxurious life. my generation is the first generation which has seen "prosperity" since childhood. my parents' generation spent their childhoods in studio compounds packed with 5-8 people with a common bathroom service for 3-5 such families. there are still priests in the family who still continue to live on in rural areas where the family traditionally was employed. and they live in huts. this is not an exaggeration. they live in 1 room huts with "communal" open-space bathrooms with the rest of the villagers.

I think the fact that all your interactions with Dalits are as service folks says a lot. I did not speculate on the 'Brahmin' component at all. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. To think that anyone would voluntarily take on a life as a maid in class conscious Indian society says a lot on what their true options were. Domestic maids in India suffer one of the highest rates of abuse. Talk to any 'Uthavum Karangal' activist in Chennai. We would never let our womenfolk do that would we. Maybe in massaland but never in India.

Again I think you are mixing economic circumstance with community privilege. It is one thing to be poor, quite another to be called dirty and viciously violated for taking water from a well. People need some time on the other side of the wall to remove some callouses from their eyes.

True things are changing rapidly. Esp. in cities populations are merging and mixing with free associations. But cities are still only 30% of India. 70% lives in truly rural areas where few attitudes have changed. If you don't agree with the 1:1000 ratio what would be acceptable to you? Keep an eye on the 70% living in villages before you comment.

No one still wants to take on the question of how 60% of India became classified as bottom of the barrel.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Nov 2011 06:03

We dont want sociology theory from the west and all its mumbo jumbo.
We need to ignore the western traine sociologists and devalue them. We dont want western inspired fix on India since they all have colonial narrative and is inheranetly biased.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Nov 2011 06:07

btw, has anyone gone through nicholas dirk's book on the caste system ? his focus is on the south and he shows with how caste identities ossified and indeed became more discriminatory with direct assistance of colonial rule.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 Nov 2011 06:20

"service folks"? do the taxi service owner and grocery owner really come under "service" category? their business is service. but they own it. how is that "bad" or "limited" in options?

you are once again propping up the 60% argument? what is this 60%? I have already pointed out that several labor sections like fishermen, weavers, spinners, and other service sector labor had unions and special representation in South India prior to the British times. the present day "dalit" status of these groups is a clear break from the pre-colonial. so, who's responsible here? is it the evil brahmin again or did foreign forces have any role to play here?

now, the abuse of domestic maids is also the responsibility of the "upper class"? really, this is wonderful. anything that happens to a "dalit" falls squarely on the shoulders of the evil "brahmin" now? and I'm not quite sure about the "highest rates of abuse". there are different categories of abuse. is "abuse" b/c of perceived caste differences? is the perpetrator doing it b/c of his/her feeling of superiority by birth or caste? how much "abuse" is b/c of a backward lifestyle due socioeconomic factors? also, what is the spacial variation of the abuse? does it increase or decrease depending on the economic/financial status of the house where the maids work? all these are important factors. you have conveniently laid "abuse" on the shoulders of the "upper class" non-Muslim, non-Christian without consideration of any of the above factors.....

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 29 Nov 2011 06:25

@Theo_Fidel urban-rural is a false dichotomy; urbanization is typically the driving force for removing social obstacles in anywhere in the world. In Indian context urbanization often includes what M.N. Srinivas (from a westernized perspective) called Sanskritization which is a state of mind more than a sense of place. You can see it in the choice of childrens' names, incorporating worship of "varishTa" deities etc., among middle-class upwardly-mobile caste groupings. These folks are role models for the rural counterparts both in terms of what treatment to expect and what treatment to accord.

This engine of change has been running inexorably and at a speed that is not appreciated or given credit due to a need on the part of anti-indian forces to present us to ourselves as hopelessly vicious and oppressive, whereas on the historical scale the truth is the exact opposite. No other culture has shed, and continues to shed, superficial baggage of the past with so little resistance and at such astonishing speed.

The purpose of the perpetuating the "hopelessly oppressive" Big Lie is to induce enough self-hatred to make us give up the Dharmic core itself, along with the superficialities. This effort has alrrady succeeded to a dangerous extent, maybe close to the tipping point.