FDI in Retail

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SSridhar
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by SSridhar »

Narayana Rao wrote:Most of the retail chains promoted in Indians are in loss.
So, what are we worried about ? With 51% Indian participation, the Walmarts et al will also suffer losses, which is what we want, right ? We don't want them to earn profit and cart away the fabulous wealth of India to far away shores like the BEIC, right ?
As for as FDI is concerned it is Manmohan who took the decision with utter disregard to political fallout.
Good for him, then. At least vote bank politics was forgotten in this one instance, if what you say is true, and a much needed reform was boldly introduced.
Any FDI and new shops will also pay the workers very poorly and it will be only fat MBA's from IIM's and their white skinned bosses who will make crores of rupees in salaries. So instead of some whole sale and "middle men" we will have new set of people eating of consumers and producers.
This is one argument that I am unable to completely understand. You seem to admit that shop hands in India today are already poorly paid, a fact I know and accept. You claim that the FDI retail chains will not also raise their salary. So, what's new ? Are you saying that Indians can exploit other Indians but the same cannot be done by others ? What is GoI doing in the on-going exploitation of this class of workers ?

Are you also saying that it is OK for 'middlemen' to corner all the profits ? That is where today's problem lies. Neither the producer nor the consumer is benefitted in today's model of Indian retail. It all goes to the 'fat' middlemen. At least, there is a possibility of change in the new development while the existing model is condemned to continue perpetually and oppressively.
There are fears and concerns on this move and we can act as if we know every thing and brush these fears aside and go ahead or we can hear them and discuss them and proceed to address them. MMS completely ignored a large body of opinion and went ahead.
There will always be 'fears and concerns' in anything different that is attempted. That is not a good enough reason for keeping quiet. Ultimately, somebody has to take some decision, either FDI or no FDI and in this case the ruling dispensation (even if only MMS as you keep saying) decided to allow FDI. Argumentative Indians (like you and me) will always keep arguing but that cannot lead to paralysis of governance. Also, government cannot and should not be cowed down by fear in taking a decision which may sometimes be unpalatable.
Let us not forget there is a great example of East India Company which " sourced" its requirements from farmers like Indigo so that it can export then same. We know what has happend when farmers refused to do so. Memory of East India Company will not be forgetten so easily by the nation and there will be huge opposition to any white people regaining any power on Indians today and in future.
Hopefully, we have all learned from our BEIC mistake. The situation today is entirely different. It is utterly inappropriate to compare the two situations and spread a sense of fear. Today, the government controls what can be exported, how much of it can be exported etc. There are also mechanisms in place to more or less accurately estimate in advance our agricultural production etc and take measures appropriately. Nobody can force us to do anything contrary to our national self interest.
SBajwa
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by SBajwa »

Let me appeal to the Nastik fellows!!!

Bhagwan blessed the land of India to be the best fertile and with good adequate water in the whole wide world but Bhagwan ran out of bravery for us and thus we are suffering!! all we need is some courage and bravery and we shall rule!!!
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by habal »

his potatoes do not even enter Indian food chain. He has voluntarily taken his produce out of the Indian produce market and laid it down at the doorstep of Pepsico to manufacture a nutritious commodity that is needed across India. Potato Fries !

All the more Pepsico can burn, bury his potatos or fry them in carcinogenic oil, it is their prerogative. But these do not make way into the Indian wholesale mandis. Smaller amounts of produce turning up in mandis is what allows hoarding and manipulation. This is why prices of everything always go north in India.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Upendra »

Nihat wrote:BJP has shot itself in the foot big time, I expect the Congress to go to the farmers in the next general elections (comprising over 60% of workforce) and yell how BJP scuttled their opportunity to almost double their income and paint them as evil, in addition to the FSB this will give congress a heavy advantage.

The emerging class urban Indians who are hit by price rise will be todl that a politically biased BJP blocked FDI in retail which could have made peoples lives easier . The people of India (the consuming junta) is genrally harmed by blocking of such proposal and this could be evident in the next elections. Besides it would be very disconcerting is a corrupt Govt. came back to power on the back of this claim.
Time to leave the propaganda line and watch some real news
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 111205.htm
Some retired senior officials with whom I had discussed this in Delhi last week attributed the haste displayed by the Congress to its urgent need for funds for the UP elections next year. They alleged that some corporate houses, which would be the main beneficiaries of the FDI decision, were expected to be the main contributors to the coffers of the Congress for the UP elections.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Upendra »

Nihat wrote:FDI in retail: Aam bania is more powerful than the aam aadmi

Don't exactly agree with this articles in it's entirety but somewhere it does make a decent point.
Divide and rule policy at play, exactly the same trick used by EIC. Economist author has many business degrees but lacks common sense.
Muppalla
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Muppalla »

Upendra wrote:Time to leave the propaganda line and watch some real news
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 111205.htm
Some retired senior officials with whom I had discussed this in Delhi last week attributed the haste displayed by the Congress to its urgent need for funds for the UP elections next year. They alleged that some corporate houses, which would be the main beneficiaries of the FDI decision, were expected to be the main contributors to the coffers of the Congress for the UP elections.
To me this looks like a bakwas. Congress gets money flow easily to distribute and it does not need to go through this route. Believe it or not, it has the wherewittal to print some fake and distribute for the elections.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Upendra »

Muppalla wrote:To me this looks like a bakwas. Congress gets money flow easily to distribute and it does not need to go through this route. Believe it or not, it has the wherewittal to print some fake and distribute for the elections.
That was said by B. Raman

meanwhile congress begins its dirty game of bribes, blackmail and horse trading to muster numbers needed to pass FDI bill

After FDI snub, Congress eyes SP, BSP for numbers game in Lok Sabha http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 013458.cms

its like the situation during the nuclear deal all over again. shows the desperation among congress to do the bidding of its real masters
Victor
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Victor »

This big, open world is not for us. We are weak and cannot compete with the tall, white demons. Or the short, yellow ones. We should fear all outsiders and retreat to our small, dark corners, tightening our langothis as we cower. We will be enslaved and killed (slowly) if we open our doors.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by skaranam »

habal wrote:
his potatoes do not even enter Indian food chain. He has voluntarily taken his produce out of the Indian produce market and laid it down at the doorstep of Pepsico to manufacture a nutritious commodity that is needed across India. Potato Fries !

All the more Pepsico can burn, bury his potatos or fry them in carcinogenic oil, it is their prerogative. But these do not make way into the Indian wholesale mandis. Smaller amounts of produce turning up in mandis is what allows hoarding and manipulation. This is why prices of everything always go north in India.
Not only that...10 years down the lane...when all the small time fellows are out of competition and Pepsico is the only buyer..guess who rules...this farmer will give his potatos free...to Pepsico...
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by skaranam »

I recall one of my visits to a small town called Hartsville, SC in the year 2006. We were implementing ERP for SONOCO. In my discussions with the locals people recall how mom & pop stores went bust after Walmart established a Supercenter in the town.

Initially it was all hunky dory...but slowly the small one could not compete and went out of business. Today a drive thru its downtown is like a ghost town.

I wonder sometimes, how life style in America has been affected by the advent of these SuperStores. I believe they truly change the lifestyle of its customers (not that they save more....but they drive more, zonal planning changes, traffic patter changes...)
vishvak
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by vishvak »

Upendra wrote:
Time to leave the propaganda line and watch some real news
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 111205.htm
Some retired senior officials with whom I had discussed this in Delhi last week attributed the haste displayed by the Congress to its urgent need for funds for the UP elections next year. They alleged that some corporate houses, which would be the main beneficiaries of the FDI decision, were expected to be the main contributors to the coffers of the Congress for the UP elections.
If raulbaba fail in UP, Congress(Indira) will have to beg for support for a long time to come. In that case, raulbabas magic will work only as much as he can please this support.
Last edited by vishvak on 07 Dec 2011 13:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Lalmohan »

sbajwa - india is not universally blessed with fertile land and abundant water - there are regional variations. per capita we are in water scarcity, and the quality of the water is also very poor. punjab is indeed blessed with water, but even there water (and power) management needs to improve for the agri sector to continue to prosper.

there is a lot of infrastructural reform and development required before we start managing our water (and our agriculture and public sanitation) more efficiently and economically
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Supratik »

Can we cut down on the conspiracy theories and debate only the pros and cons of FDI in retail?
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by ritesh »

As a free economy, its always beneficial to allow/invite investments from all the sources, so in that sense, FDI is a positive step. But to think, as the GoI is now, that all the ills will go away, is wishful and not realistic. An example would be FDI in Real Estate. Not related but the effect of FDI in Real Estate has detrimental effect of common man, all the so-called investments has been at the extreme end of the spectrum, ie Luxurious housing. I hope this does not turn into the same. Else, we will be in a tight fix.

Does allowing FDI, will result in good roads, 24*7 electricity etc?
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by krishnan »

As per the lobbying disclosure reports filed by the Wal-Mart company with the US Senate, it has spent a staggering amount of over $11 million (more than Rs 52 crore) on issues related to India, as also other matters, in over two years now.
In 2010 itself, the company spent $1.37 million (over Rs six crore) on lobbying in the first quarter.
It has disclosed “discussion related to India FDI (Foreign Direct Investment)” as one of the issues in its lobbying with the US lawmakers in the first two quarters of 2011, during which it spent nearly USD 4 million on various lobbying activities.
Organiser, the mouth-piece of the RSS, which is behind the BJP’s opposition to the FDI, has highlighted the disclosures. In a quick follow-up, senior BJP leader Shanta Kumar has sought a probe into the issue.“Under the US laws, the companies are allowed lobbying but have to make disclose it officially. Since it has been made official that company has spent Rs 50 crore for lobbying, the government should order a probe as to how and where the company spent the money,” Kumar said.
A RajyaSabha member, Kumar heads the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Commerce.
Kumar said Wal-Mart’s annual retail business turnover is to the tune Rs 14 lakh crore, which is much higher than India’s annual budget of Rs 11 lakh crore. Walmart and other foreign retail giants aim to get a share in India’s economic growth.
The Rajya Sabha MP said that the issues on which these companies are lobbying with the US government range from facilitating the market access to easing of foreign investment rules in India to help further expansion of their businesses here, the lobbying disclosure reports filed by them with the US Senate state.
“ It is due to result of such lobbying that efforts are being made to open the retail market to the FDI - a move strongly opposed by the parliamentary standing committee. The committee had raised several queries and asked for more details. Discussions have not been completed. Yet the government chose to go ahead with the move. This is a breach of privilege of the standing committee,” he added.
Kumar also said, “This is a conspiracy to capture the Indian market. Earlier, pharmaceutical multinationals had bought eight Indian companies, including Ranbaxy and Dabur, at four-five times their value and made them give an undertaking that they will not enter this market in future. By next year 200 medicines will lose their patents and foreign companies will take over the business to sell medicines at higher rates.”
Gopal Agarwal, convenor of BJP’s economy cell, said the disclosures on money spent by US companies on lobbying exposes the fair and unfair means employed by the MNC to expand its business.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by gakakkad »

skaranam wrote:I recall one of my visits to a small town called Hartsville, SC in the year 2006. We were implementing ERP for SONOCO. In my discussions with the locals people recall how mom & pop stores went bust after Walmart established a Supercenter in the town.

Initially it was all hunky dory...but slowly the small one could not compete and went out of business. Today a drive thru its downtown is like a ghost town.

I wonder sometimes, how life style in America has been affected by the advent of these SuperStores. I believe they truly change the lifestyle of its customers (not that they save more....but they drive more, zonal planning changes, traffic patter changes...)


The Policy states that FDI will be permitted only in cities > 1 million population . Hartsville South carolina is a tinpot little town with a tiny fraction of population (less than 10k AFAIK )

. Just to give you the idea , Boston Main city is considered a "big city" . But its population is 0.7 million . (I am referring to the main city and not the whole metro area. ) . If Bostonabad was an Indian city it would NOT be permitted to have a walmart .

The policy of Indian FDI clearly states city . And not metro area or district. So a walmart can come only in ahemdabad main city . But not in other centres of Ahmedabad district or metro area . Likewise only 10-15 % of the Indian population would live in the intended catchment of walmart . So only a fraction of agricultural output wuld be supplied by them .

So the above scenario cannot occur in India .
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Lalmohan »

there is no question that big supermarkets drive small shops out of business, but not entirely. small shops play niche roles - and can still do well
what they do is make the supply chain very efficient and on the whole keep food price inflation down and reduce wastage
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by habal »

Likewise only 10-15 % of the Indian population would live in the intended catchment of walmart . So only a fraction of agricultural output wuld be supplied by them .
but supplies and logistics chain for that 10-15% will come out of the remaining 85%. So it's effect is not limited to 10-15%.

Supply chain is limited and supplies are limited, not endless, so key produce examples like urad dal, moong etc which are only grown in India and not anywhere else in the world will be prey to the same FDI grocers like the domestic ones. What is the result ? price rise.

Supply of land is not growing and water management in India is not getting better because of FDI. Just because FDI has a corporate agreement with some farmers to treat their produce as the personal feedstock of the company. Life is not going to get easier in terms of prices for Indian consumers. Like in Russian stores, all stuff will be available on the market shelves but the power to buy that will get lesser because of declining farmer and intermediary incomes.


Some were speculating that it is Sonia's and Congress money taken out of Switzerland coming back into India via FDI and dummy front entrepreuners who are bound to be propped up as promoters of misc FDI joint ventures. If this is the real intention then it's Indian money coming back to India. that's the only silver lining in this cloud.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by RajeshA »

I am not just against FDI in retail, I am against all Walmart type retail - huge retail spaces, selling products from all categories of products, having branches all over the place.

Sourcing from somethings I posted earlier [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

*************

As far as retail is concerned, I am of the opinion that big retail chains which sell everything should be completely discouraged in the Indian market, even those from India. We should leave some space in the Indian market for the small man, the small businessman to make a living. So a WalMart would not stand a chance in India.

The impact is small, because organized retail still has not taken over the system. From what I see in Germany, here except for the a few foreign owned chains who have been able to make a niche for themselves, especially because they sell exotic foods not otherwise found in Germany from Far East, Turkey, etc.; or other small shops who sell virtual junk at throwaway prices; it is very difficult for small retailers to really survive. There is only so much demand for personal care services, gastronomy, etc. a society can create.

Somebody can't just start hawking some products on the way side, or having small shops and hope they will get sold. The big chains control everything.

So when the economy is going good, people have jobs. But whenever the economy falters, and people start becoming jobless, there is practically no work outside the organized sector where they can do something and make a living. The social safety net jumps in, but for developed countries, that are now losing increasing manufacturing and even services share to the emerging economies, and cannot keep up with the rising health costs, social security costs, etc. it is a really bad omen, if there is no unorganized sector protected from huge businesses with deep pockets.

In India, the unorganized and protected sectors keeps our millions from drowning. It is good if in some sector of the economy there are only small players and the sector can support millions of self-employed players. In our modern information-society, industrial-society, the only two sectors I can think of is agriculture and retail. Too many players involved in agriculture would mean small land-holdings, higher production costs, and thus inflation at the stage of primary industries. I would rather have competitive primary and secondary industries in India. So the only place left for the population to go in times of weak economy when the organized sector cannot take in more workers, more employees is some sector that provides self-employment and shows a steady demand is retail. Of course one can find self-employment in services as well, but all that is limited, as the service providers are all well-established and entrenched. Also in many services, the skill-set needed would be quite specialized, and the unskilled would not be able to cope with that. In retail, one needs the least skill-set.

I am no economics expert, but it just makes common sense.

First a little about what I prefer. I would like to see malls, shopping streets, corner shops selling their wares. Those kiranas on the corner, the mom&pop shops as one calls them in the States, they will of course be selling all types of stuff. But those shops which happen to be in the malls or in the shopping streets should concentrate only on one thing - women's wear, men's wear, perfumeries, dairy, fish, meat, fruits & vegetables, processed foods, Indian confectionery, namkeen, bakery, drugstore, telecommunications shop, electronics, household appliances, carpets, furniture, etc.

Here I am talking about how it used to be even before industrialization. Everybody used to sell one thing. Only this time the shopkeepers will not be selling their own produce, but what they buy from others. The specialization would also bring down costs.

Some are of the opinion that retail must necessarily also control the logistics as the distribution is inefficient. I think one of the best distribution models is the post. The distributors companies can handle the volume. In fact there can be several distributor companies working at various levels of distribution. The logistics industry can be kept separate. If we want to really learn from the outside world, then it is the area of logistics, and not retail.

Another great model I see is car-sharing. Shopkeepers who buy similar products from one type in a given region can buy together bringing down the procurement costs due to buying in bulk. Many such networks of shopkeepers can come up.

The interface between the shopkeeper and the end-customer should however remain in the hands of the small shopkeeper.

By turning over the whole retail market to the WalMarts where one can buy everything from a pin to a car, we would not be solving the problem but creating a new one. We will be throwing the baby with the bathwater.

The baby is the retail market. The bath water being the inefficiency of our procurement and distribution networks.

Some say that when the organized retail take over, the kiranas can look for a different profession. That is exactly my point. Then one has taken away the last profession he can self-employ himself in when nobody is willing to employ him as the lean times come.

Just look what a vast population we have. And when automation and mechanization and computerization is taking over the primary and secondary industries, or when the service providers would have already established themselves and when people start getting laid off, with their limited skill-set they would have nowhere else to go.

Efficiency can bring down the supply-side inflation, but for that we don't have to take away the last refuge of the poor man.

Probably because India is still so much in the beginning of its retail evolution, that India does not realize the downsides of a fully-developed organized retail market. It is unprecedented joblessness.

My claim is that as long as agriculture, mining, construction, cargo-handling, etc. are not heavily mechanized as one sees in the developed world, these industries can take in the jobless. When they get automated to increase efficiency, bring down costs even, then there wouldn't really be any industry left to suck up all the labor in lean times. All I said was, retail should remain one such industry to cushion the impact of joblessness in other areas. Of course the mantra is always, we need to create more industry, retrain labor, make them more skilled, etc. but the growth can just as well be jobless growth.

Some point to the example with the growth of banking. Well the example is not really valid, because it is not a question of losing workers due to more computerization. An industry can grow, as banking did and create more jobs, where employees can do something else. It is about losing out on self-employment opportunities. Banking as such was not one such industry. Retail is.

I am not talking about joblessness as such, but about loss of self-employment in an industry. When lean times come, some industry needs to be able to support all those who become unemployed, or the state has to put the unemployed on the dole! So what is it going to be? One reserved industry or Dole? Where is the income security going to come from?

People want to escape from this choice, by simply saying there are not going to be any lean times. In the developed world, one sees that that is not true. There can be lean times.

The "experts" are failing to address the need for an industry which retains some extra capacity for employment at short notice, when the general economy is in recession.

The example is that when one has some reserves, a piggy-bank, money that is to be used only when the times are hard, perhaps when one loses one's job. Then one needs money and one taps into that reserve. Same case with a country. Another example is that of having a reserve army when war breaks out. Then one needs soldiers, and one can tap into this pool.

Where are the "job reserves" for an economy going to be when one needs to tap into it for jobs?

What developed countries do in such a situation is, they increase public sector funding and start public infrastructure projects using huge Stimulus packages. To some extent it is to kick-start the economy, but more importantly it is to rope in the galloping unemployment rate. Often that is insufficient. Simply because at a time when the focus is on job creation, the industry that gets the money is still tuned to efficiency, and as such employers would not wish to hire so many. So there is mostly jobless growth. If the country, already has an unenviable public debt, such stimulus packages do not really help.

In such a situation of recession, the best thing would be if some industry could suck up the unemployed providing them with work, without any government intervention. As companies are not too keen on taking on workers during this time, the preference should be for self-employment. Moreover, such an industry should not have high demands on the skill-set of the workers, and a basic skill-set should suffice.

Either the state can save itself the burden of stimulus packages, or even if the government decides to intervene, it can fashion the stimulus package more towards the need of encouraging new industries, like green energy, etc. rather than in areas which contribute little to productivity but only to job creation.

As such it is important that there is always a large industry with extra capacity for self-employment generation.

By throwing the retail industry in the lap of organized retail, the state would lose its last chance for having a cushion in times of recession.

So instead of following the model of the various developed countries who have a very poor economic model for the lean times, India should instead opt for a model which caters to both the good and the bad times.

***************
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by gakakkad »

>>Supply of land is not growing and water management in India is not getting better because of FDI. Just because FDI has a corporate agreement with some farmers to treat their produce as the personal feedstock of the company. Life is not going to get easier in terms of prices for Indian consumers. Like in Russian stores, all stuff will be available on the market shelves but the power to buy that will get lesser because of declining farmer and intermediary incomes.


FDI is not a panacea to our problems . But they ll create none . IMHO the impact of FDI bosth positive and negative have beem over rated. Congress wants people to believe that it ll solve all of India's problem . Will Trinamool and left want to project it as "selling the nation" . Both the extremes are incorrect. In a city with population of 1 million , at the most you could find 3-4 walmart hyper marts. Besides there will be competition . Other players too would be their . Competition is always positive .

IMHO FDI are greatly over-rated. Both as an oportunity and as a problem. I support FDI because someone is investing here . And creating competition . Poor .Farmers will not get any poorer than than they presently are. But rich ones might get richer .
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by habal »

Ofcourse FDI is not the problem. If one imports a hyena or a tiger into the Indian zoo, the hyena will act like a hyena and the tiger will act like a tiger irrespective of location. So FDI corporates will always look to monopolize and maximise revenue/profits whether in India or in US. Itna to clear hai. So even this poison can be tolerated to a certain extent if it is kept within the 10-15% zoo.

But the problem is the intermediary between the FDI and commons OR the zookeeper that is incharge of the Indian zoo. The politcal, lawgiver and administrative class in India (i.e. NBJPRIE®) the track record of always intervening in favor of corporates and vested interests whenever these parties are in dispute,disagreement with the common man.

We need to divide India into 8 stratas of income, what is kept out of news is that the 7th and 8th strata are already being ethinically cleansed by policies of govt of India. Look at the incomes of farm labour in West Bengal, Tamil Nadu & Northern states. Now take a look at the cost of living, the picture will get very clear.
Theo_Fidel

Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Theo_Fidel »

There is nothing wrong in organized retail itself.

It is letting Wal-Mart & TESCO type companies in that is unwise at our stage of development. These companies do not believe in free and fair competition or looking for their niche or a peaceful co-existence. Their USP is to destroy all other competitors by selling at loss and then raising prices to what the market will bear.

Honestly guys this is their entire business philosophy. Everything else is just for show.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by SBajwa »

Basically a retailer has a add a value to the product. A mid level wholesaler that is not adding a value to the product should be taxed and force to quit the market.

Adding a value means.

1. A Farmer grows wheat and sell it to the government at a fixed price of Rs 1200 per 100 kg. i.e. 12 ruppes per kg.
2. Government sell the wheat to a wholesaler who does this
a. Sell it to another person without adding a value
b. Adds some value to the wheat i.e. transport, clean/pack, grind and then sell it to some retailer/wholesaler.
3. The retailer/wholesaler adds another value (makes it into puri/roti/etc) and sell it to retailer/wholesaler.
4. and then cycle repeat again and again.

The Walmart type establishment does this
1. Gets a wide variety of products under one roof (some wholesale and other retail) from electronics to food.
2. Adds a value (package/transport) at a large scale.

Now if 1. above by walmart is directly from manufacturer (farmers and factories) then it is good otherwise it is not good.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Victor »

Lalmohan wrote:there is no question that big supermarkets drive small shops out of business, but not entirely. small shops play niche roles - and can still do well
what they do is make the supply chain very efficient and on the whole keep food price inflation down and reduce wastage
This is exactly correct. Not everyone has the means or the inclination to drive to a big store when they can walk around the block for grocery. The little extra that they pay is more then compensated by the convenience, fuel savings, time and aggravation. This is true whether you are in America or India. The small businesses have benefited from the distribution channels and infrastructure that the big stores have created. For example, climate-controlled storage and transport has become much cheaper and common for everybody in the developed countries, not just the big stores.

The big retailers have a place and their net result is hugely positive. The businesses that won't survive will be the ones that were inefficient and borderline profitable anyway. Small towns will disappear no doubt but other small towns will sprout up around these big stores to provide the ancillary goods and services--gas stations, restaurants, motels, banks and even smaller niche services. This is visible all over the developed world and it will be the same in India.

With the likes of Ikea, if they set up manufacturing plants in India as they almost certainly will, we will soon have a dozen or more desi brands that will be competing not only with Ikea but with chinese knockoffs too. All we need is an injection of new ideas and technology and the incentive. Net result is we will have well-designed and functional furniture for the masses to replace the rubbish we have now at the mass level. A bonus will be that we will use our timber resources much better as even the sawdust is utilized by modern furniture companies.
Theo_Fidel wrote:Their USP is to destroy all other competitors by selling at loss and then raising prices to what the market will bear.
Nothing could be further than the truth. For every Wal-Mart, other big-name companies will sprout within earshot to compete, often on a specialty basis--Meijers, Lowes, Home Depot, PetSmart. As a result, margins are razor thin.
Lalmohan
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Lalmohan »

the 'law of industry' is that in an unregulated market, after the initial foray of many players, three dominant players emerge and are backed by many niche players - others do go out of business. sure they can behave like oligopolies, but generally this is true when they are controlling common commodities like oil. where consumer preferences kick in, there is normally massive competition
Theo_Fidel

Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Victor wrote:Meijers, Lowes, Home Depot, PetSmart. As a result, margins are razor thin.
What are you talking about. Home Depot competes with Wal-Mart. Petsmart is competition? :roll: :rotfl:

The only store that really competes is Target, but they do it by upscaling. K-mart has been driven out of business. Now that Wal-Mart is moving into grocery, Dillons & Hyvee have closed down in my neigbhorhood. Price Chopper is down to 1 store. Back then Wal-Mart used to sell milk at $1.99 a gallon. Now it is $4.24. Across town where the latest super center opened milk is still $1.99.

Do what ever it takes to keep these guys out.
RajeshA
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by RajeshA »

For those who may be interested, here is how Food Retail Industry looks in Germany

Image

I have sourced this from a study into Food Retailing: Structural Changes in Food Retailing: Six Country Case Studies by Food System Research Group (FSRG)

They may have done research on other markets as well!
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by SBajwa »

by Theo Fidel
The only store that really competes is Target, but they do it by upscaling. K-mart has been driven out of business. Now that Wal-Mart is moving into grocery, Dillons & Hyvee have closed down in my neigbhorhood. Price Chopper is down to 1 store. Back then Wal-Mart used to sell milk at $1.99 a gallon. Now it is $4.24. Across town where the latest super center opened milk is still $1.99.

Do what ever it takes to keep these guys out.
People buy daily use items from Walmart i.e. cleaning products, small TV, coke, etc.
If somebody is painting his house he/she will go to Home Depot and not Walmart.
If somebody is looking for lots of things for his/her pet they will go to petsmart.

If somebody wants to wear good clothes they will go to designer and not walmart (underwear may be)

Walmart in that sense competes with everybody (home depot, best buy, pets mart) for lower end(cheaper) goods.

Target also competes with everybody but its stuff is little a bit better (and pricey) than walmart but not that much.

Walmart is now trying to compete with Groceries chains like Faceway, Tops, Giant Eagle (which are local) but these days most of the people are moving on to organic food.

So the local groceries stores (universal) are advertising and have got their quality much better.

If you want to buy and eat junk and get cancer go to walmart.
If you want to buy good healthy foods for yourself and family come to us.

so!! most of people who wants to buy wide variety of things in one trip like soap, pets food, pizza, coke, underwear, nails, shotgun ammunition, tennis balls, light bulbs, candy they go to walmart to save time.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Victor »

Theo_Fidel wrote:
What are you talking about. Home Depot competes with Wal-Mart. Petsmart is competition? :roll: :rotfl:
As SBajwa has mentioned, this is indeed the case and the competition is cutthroat. Petsmart competes with the *pet section* at walmart, Home Depot with the *building & hardware* and *garden* sections and so on. You will notice that Walmart stores never come by all by themselves--they always have these other specialty stores that will come up alongside. Walmart will scr*w you with low-ticket convenience items like milk because it just happens to be lying nearby while you buy your socks, guns and ammo.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by RajeshA »

India has a huge population. Retail - hawking, small shops, thelas, etc. allow the poor to make some money. If retail becomes over-organized, the poor would have no cushion!

So in a country where we don't have social security, where we cannot afford to have social security, it is best to leave a few areas, which allow to absorb the less skilled, with little capital, to make a living.

If you take it away from them, there is going to be a bloody revolution against the well-off!
Theo_Fidel

Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Theo_Fidel »

SBajwa wrote:Walmart in that sense competes with everybody (home depot, best buy, pets mart) for lower end(cheaper) goods.
Absolutely right. No one goes head to head against Walmart. Even Petsmart quietly moves out of sectors Wal-mart enters.

When Wal-Mart started selling camping gear a few years back, Home Depots entire camping line disappeared. So Wal-Mart charges as it feels like. These monster store target selective sectors to destroy the competition then raise prices. There is very little efficiency or value being done now. In massaland Wal-Marts are horrific cesspits that have lowered the presentation quality quite dramatically. Everything is piled one on top of another and makes it impossible for you to find anything.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by SBajwa »

So what will happen in India if FDI is allowed in retail

1. The shopkeepers at Village/small towns will shop at Walmart-like transporting it back to their small shops in village., villagers don't have time/money/effort to take a bus to shop at a big retail mall, the value they get is transported packaged/certified product close to their house. The Walmart-like is competing with smaller wholesalers than them.

2. An average city Ram/Shyam who has a Car will monthly/bi-monthly shop at Walmart for monthly/yearly products.

The special retailers that are unique will survive by innovation and marketing (better or cheaper products, tight product line). The junk retailers will be wiped out due to competition.

The poor will continue to earn their living by adding their value (a person selling a shade at ight is adding a value of ease to you). I see that poor will actually be helped by FDI in retail., they will have access to cheaper wide variety of goods. But in order to really help the poor Government needs to give them a skill (electrician/plumbing/painter/etc/etc/etc), if money is spent in providing such a skill (instead of providing free electricity or flour or rice) will build nation in long term.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by SBajwa »

Talking about Walmart., what I buy from them is

1. Tennis Balls (cheaper than some sporting goods).
2. Work boots (for yard/outside work).
3. Small Cleaning products.
4. Club Soda, chips, chewing gum.
5. Tooth Brushes. (Paste from Costco in bulk)
6. May be some toys for children (which they will break in less than 2-3 days).
7. sometimes Summer Plants like Tomatoes, Chillies, etc (in they are not at home depot my second choice is to check them out at Walmart)

Most of the people can easily live without Walmart.

Poor in India (daily wage earners) get their Rs 200.0 at the end of the day and probably do this
1. Flour, Dal, vegetables, fuel and oil procured from local retailer (Rs 100.00) for family.
2. Rest for things like soap, residence, etc.

They will not go to walmart for their daily flour, dal, vegetables and oil.
Victor
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Victor »

Theo_Fidel wrote:

Absolutely right. No one goes head to head against Walmart. Even Petsmart quietly moves out of sectors Wal-mart enters.
er..which sectors would this be, the pet sectors?
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by Lalmohan »

in france - which has massive supermarket chains like casino and carrefour (plus several others) - who also have massive overseas outlets and investments - every single neighbourhood in big cities and every village has its bakers, cakeshop, butchers and grocers - all managing to co-exist, because people like the choice of having both. they buy their staples from the chains and their specialities from the local shops. plus the convenience of walking to the shop and opening hours.

big supermarkets serve the middle classes, in western europe - cheap supermarket brands serve the working and underclasses (those on benefits). in india the big supermarkets will serve the middle classes for quite some time to come. i think they can coexist with small shops and improve the supply chain and reduce costs to the consumer
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by krishnan »

wallmart or no wall mart...local "maligai" shops wont close...infact we get cheaper in our local shop from whom we have been buying for past 14 years.

walmarts wont give credits which these shops do...most daily wage labours buy from these shops and pay at the end of the week
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by harbans »

What will happen if a 100 Billion USD enters in FDI over the next few years:

Before thats lets see what is a Billion USD investment say in cold storage facitlites. It's 5000 Crore Rs. A billion Dollar a year investment translates to around approximately..0.5 million people making 10000 Rs/ month..or 2.5 Lakh people getting Rs 20,000 pm.

When we talk about a Billion USD investment into cold storage facilites these will be built all along the supply chain. Rural to urban centers where the marts are planned. 4 billion USD investment thus over the country will translate to 1 million jobs and if we consider a family of 4, 4 million people being employed as AC/ Reefer Mechanics, repairing workshops will open, gas supply units as a consequence and so on. All jobs in India being created.

If the gestation period of the marts is around 10 years from investment which normally is the case for large investment projects, we are talking about in the near term massive job creation not notional losses. 100 B USD in 9 years to 2020 would translate to 25 million jobs at 25k/ month or so.

Investment of that sort of capital is job creation and creation of efficiencies and lesser wastage all which help the economic bottom line, thus increasing tax revenue for GOI to indulge in Healthcare, education ,defense.

Employment will be generated in building material industry, power demand, Software solutions, logistics management, security solutions and set ups, transport sectors. Here we are not talking about a stagnant middle class of 200/ 250 million, we should be talking about a middle class rising 150 million every decade. Moving to a higher efficient background will help create jobs that are more skilled, bring in entrepreneurship in manufacturing.

Delay in FDI in retail implementation thus notionally translates to keeping millions of jobs being created. Same happened with the delay in implementation of reforms in 91. Same arguments, same mindsets retarding progress that should have been done a dozen years ago.

The argument really translates to banning cars because rickshaws can employ more people. We do have unemployment after all.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by habal »

>>When we talk about a Billion USD investment into cold storage facilites these will be built all along the supply chain.

you mean the likes of Walmart will allow access to their cold storage facilities to aam bania and the humble farmer. Wow ! Are they making such a concession in all the countries where they have a presence.
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by harbans »

^ What nationality Engineers/ Mechanics personnel will build, man, maintain the reefers in India? Will they fly in Americans to do that? You must be kidding.
habal
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Re: FDI in Retail

Post by habal »

So u mean ToT of cold storage logistics tech to Indian personnel. Surely we must know how to do that already, what are CFTRI and Ministry of FP doing ? This is in fact one of my accusations at the Indian govt, that they have knowingly withheld this from public sector so that they can facilitate entry of FDI on this pretext.
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