JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

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Victor
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Victor » 19 Nov 2011 22:28

Singha wrote:imo F22 and JSF are trojan horses to make everyone expend effort in a false direction.

That's a very risky position to take if you are a potential unkil, chinese or Russkie enemy. The fact is stealth fighters exist and we need to deal with it or risk the consequences.

UAVs, both stealth and non, are definitely going to be game changers but they too will reach their full potential as complements to manned warplanes. Autonomous UAVs are not going to happen anytime soon and remote control has its limits. In the meantime, the Apache is able to exercise full control of a UAV as an extension of itself over long distances, receiving live video from it and directing it to attack targets. After the job is done, it can hand control back to a land-based controller. If the WSO can handle 2 or 3, then a couple of data-linked Apaches could dominate hundreds of square miles. From there its a small hop to a stealth mother ship unleashing a swarm of hunter-killer UAVs over a battle space :)

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby SaiK » 20 Nov 2011 00:53

would not a composite RAM coated MKI threaten the F22s at BVR? Let us say MKIs get a 50km range OLS.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Singha » 20 Nov 2011 11:46

we cannot have plastic turbine blades and combustion chamber :) ? MKI/Mig29 engine faces are totally exposed. VLO stealth cannot really be retrofitted on a plane not designed as such from day1. some mitigation measures can be taken like the silent eagle, F-18-NG and rafale sawtooths and stealthy side intakes. it helps in reducing the range at which a x-band radar or missile can get a good lock.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby SaiK » 20 Nov 2011 11:54

www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/i ... f3c78e53c2 Lockheed Martin now claims that the F-35 will be robust and affordable to maintain in service, with a combination of a high-toughness sprayed-on topcoat and a conductive layer cured into composite skin panels.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Singha » 20 Nov 2011 11:56

it almost seems like the TLC needed for a good set of prime telephoto canon L-lenses and EOS-1 body.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Victor » 20 Nov 2011 22:50

One of the big advances of the JSF project is the level of fit in surface panels. This may be part of what contributes to "robust and affordable" maintenence. Even the Raptor cannot match it and needs to have panel gaps smoothed with a filler material to minimize RCS.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Philip » 21 Nov 2011 12:33

Unfortunately,even if the JSF's problems hve been solved as of today,the official IOC date for the USAF is 2019,a;mosta decade away.The post about new UCAVs enterign service is a valid one,as the X-47B will trial from US carriers and be inducted this decade as well.:R long endurance stealthy UCAV with a credible internal pyload are going to be the game changers.The tst of the US's hypersonc vehicle just days ago is an ikling of the direction in which development is moving.IT is why many in the the RAF feel that the EF will be their last major manned combat aircraft.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby VinayG » 21 Nov 2011 12:52

Image

:mrgreen:

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Taygibay » 27 Nov 2011 03:40

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/130656/why-f_35-is-far-from-ideal-for-india.html

Self-explanator, read guys.

Also Norway will get 52 F-35s instead of 58
and will use them all from one base : OOrland
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Vil-ha-fire-frre-kampfly-6705603.html

Thanx VinayG, sweet truth.

Good day all, Tay.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Philip » 04 Dec 2011 02:02

"Oh dear,what can the matter be? Oh dear,what can the matter be with this turkey,oh dear....."

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/02 ... agon-says/
Cracks found in F-35′s airframe, Pentagon says.

By Lee Berthiaume

OTTAWA • The Pentagon official in charge of the F-35 project said major cracks and “hot spots” have been discovered in the stealth fighter’s airframe, creating a fresh challenge to Canada’s plan to acquire 65 F-35s for $9-billion.

In an interview with AOL Defense published Thursday, U.S. Vice-Admiral David Venlet said Pentagon officials were surprised by the extent of the problems discovered in the fighter’s structure during recent testing.

“The analyzed hot spots that have arisen in the last 12 months or so in the program have surprised us at the amount of change and at the cost,” Vice-Admiral Venlet said.
Pentagon weapons chief welcomes delay in F-35 fighter jet program as A-G staff visit Texas

“Most of them are little ones, but when you bundle them all up and package them and look at where they are in the airplane and how hard they are to get at after you buy the jet, the cost burden of that is what sucks the wind out of your lungs.”

The issue isn’t one of safety, Vice-Admiral Venlet said, but of ensuring each fighter reaches its expected service life of 8,000 hours and doesn’t need early repairs or replacement. As a result, he is advising production of the fighters be slowed until the problems can be ironed out.

Canada has planned to buy its

F-35s when the stealth fighters are at peak production to ensure as low a cost as possible. Slowing production directly impacts that plan by delaying Canada’s ability to obtain the fighters or alternatively by pushing up costs.

Winslow Wheeler, an expert on the American F-35 program who used to work with the U.S. General Accountability Office, said as significant as Vice-Admiral Venlet’s comments are, more problems are on the horizon.

Last month, a U.S. congressional “super-committee” was unable to develop a credible plan to address that country’s massive federal deficit. As a result, massive, automatic budget cuts came into effect.

U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, who had warned the F-35 program would be in jeopardy if the super-committee failed, is expected to lay out in the coming months what programs will be affected by the cuts.

Vice-Admiral Wheeler doubted the F-35 would be cancelled outright given the massive amount of money and political capital invested in the program, “but there’s going to be major bad news on cost and schedule.”

“The F-35 is the low-hanging fruit in the Pentagon budget-cutting exercise,” he added.


"low hanging fruit indeed!"

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby VinayG » 04 Dec 2011 04:32

Image

ramana
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby ramana » 06 Dec 2011 02:19


nachiket
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby nachiket » 06 Dec 2011 02:35

Do we really need this thread, now that the GoI has clarified in parliament that they haven't received any offer for the JSF? This was just Col. Shukla's wet dream and will remain that.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Victor » 06 Dec 2011 03:20

^
Wasn't this clarification from February? The following reports are from last month.

Pentagon awaits India's interest in Lockheed Martin F-35 fighter
The U.S. Defense Department offered India technology sharing and talks on its top weapons program, Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35


U.S. Ready To Sell F-35 to India: Pentagon
Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information...India has made no request for more information on the F-35

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby nachiket » 06 Dec 2011 03:27


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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Leo.Davidson » 06 Dec 2011 03:32

Victor wrote:^
Wasn't this clarification from February? The following reports are from last month.

Pentagon awaits India's interest in Lockheed Martin F-35 fighter
The U.S. Defense Department offered India technology sharing and talks on its top weapons program, Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35


U.S. Ready To Sell F-35 to India: Pentagon
Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information...India has made no request for more information on the F-35


I don't think this deal is even 1 cent beneficial to Indian interests. India needs to stay on course with its MMRCA acquisition. Of the two, I firmly believe that the Rafale is closer to transforming into India's AMCA. If you had the Rafale design in CAD; And stretched/squeezed/pinched/buffed/roughed/smoothed it, you would come close to the F-35 or AMCA design. Besides that you already have the latest/greatest 4.5 generation electronics.

That is the best starting position for developing the AMCA.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 10 Dec 2011 00:55

The JSF will never, ever be "capable" in air-to-air combat.
The JSF will never, ever be a threat to countries with advanced air defense capabilities (or even AD 'middling' countries that are geographically large, because the JSF has a very limited reach).
The JSF will never, ever be cost-effective, as it will never be worth the risk to send it "in" after the profiled target (a la Milosevic, Quadaffi et al.). Why send a $120 Million a/c and pilot when a $1 Million drone can place the same ordinance on target with less risk and more loiter time?

THEREFORE....

The JSF will never, ever be inducted with sufficient scale to bring down per-copy costs.
The JSF will never, ever meet anywhere near its publically anticipated production schedule, neither in terms of delivery times, unit or batch costs, or even production volumes -- certainly never spare parts production either.

Just my two paise (two cents, in the Canadian context).

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby SaiK » 10 Dec 2011 05:03

we have beaten this JSF to death. ucav is actually where future wars are going to be.. Boeing is already leading all the way 50 years from now r&ding their phantoms platforms.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Victor » 13 Dec 2011 21:40

Also posted in MMRCA thread.
Japan "likely to pick F-35 fighter" this week

The government will choose between two U.S. models -- the F-35 and the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet -- and Europe's four-nation Eurofighter Typhoon...

...The F-35 or Joint Strike Fighter, the most expensive of the three, leads the others due to its "overwhelmingly superior performance" and stealth capabilities...

...Fielding the F-35 would put Japan a step ahead of China.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Philip » 14 Dec 2011 02:17

The Japanese wanted the F-22 earlier,and were willing to pay the price,twice as much as a JSF! They were refused.There entire intention to me is to acquire the stealth tech of the fighter so that they can match the PRC at a later date.Earlier AWST reports had the Japanese give details about their planned "6th-gen" fighter,which would incorporate advanced direct-energy weapon systems,"frying enemy radars/avionics" etc.,to be developed.Acquiring the delayed JSF at half the price is cool for the sons of Nippon! They will leverage the tech it contains to produce their own 6th-gen future fighter.Their need is not the same as India's,acquiring an immediate 4++ gen.capability to meet the rapidly falling numbers ,to counter the increasing joint Sino-Pak threat.SoKo may also go the Japanese way.

Another very,very important reason why the Japanese desperately want the JSF is to operate it from their future carriers.Japan plans to challenge the PLAN with its own carrier forces and have for the moment built quasi-light carriers,calling them flat-topped "destroyers".The Japanese may prefer to acquire the STOVL version of the JSF as they can afford the price.This would allow them to build medium sized carriers ,perhaps with ski-jumps,not large super-carrier behemoths,and avoid the tech issues and costs of installing cats,EMALS,STOBAR for launching aircraft.This would give them a distinct advantage over the PLAN,which has yet to perfect its first illegally reverse-engineered version of the SU-33,let alone a naval version of the J-20.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Victor » 14 Dec 2011 06:23

Philip wrote:Their need is not the same as India's,acquiring an immediate 4++ gen.capability to meet the rapidly falling numbers

Since we pride ourselves on being better than DDM, we need to put this canard to rest once and for all because repeating it ad nauseum like a stuck mantra will not make it true.

If India needed 4++ gen fighters "immediately" to plug the gap created by "rapidly falling numbers", why did we go for fighters that will only start trickling in around 20016-17 and be fully delivered only by 2021-25 if all goes well? Is there no chance of a chipak attack before that? Were more M2ks, Su30s, MiG-29s not available off the shelf almost immediately and were these incapable of being transformed into 4++++ gen in half the time and cost if we wanted?

What we see instead is an ultra-expensive, ultra-leisurely procurement process lacking any hint of urgency, not just for the MMRCA but the M2k and MiG-29 upgrades as well. This obviously can't be a case of simple lethargy since the IAF and GoI rushed in unseemly haste to grab the C-17, C-130 and Apache. What gives?

Unless we consider the IAF and GoI to be plain stupid and totally incapable of planning, it should be clear as daylight that they realized we simply DON'T NEED new fighters in this window and that in spite of depleted numbers we can pulverize both the PLAAN and PAF together with what we have till the MMRCAs, upg M2ks, upg MiG-29s, Super Su30mkis and hopefully even PAKFAs start arriving one after during the next 5-10 years . Is this too difficult a concept to accept?

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Philip » 14 Dec 2011 08:27

Sorry Vic,"Immediately" refers to the decision,not the "mail-order" anticipation,but required urgently to avoid more sqds. being "number-plated".I think there was a stat. given some time ago about falling numbers due to retiring aircraft and the drop in assets in this half of the decade and the need to arrest the shortfall.

I agree entirely with your "lackadaisical" babudom approach tro the problem of def. plg.Read Gen Sinha in the Deccan Chronicle today with the same lament.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby member_20453 » 14 Dec 2011 11:41

Ravi....

F-35 will be very capable in air combat, firstly because it will deploy the latest Aim-120D and Meteor missiles, it has a large radar with very good long range detection ranges. It will also have next gen jammers and very good EW suites. It will be able to jam pretty much everything out there. It will have DAS, for long range passive detection, DAS's IRST picked up a ballistic missile launch at over 1200 km or 800 miles and was able to track it. A fighter will be detected at long ranges as well. Not every mission it flies has to be stealth.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_download-id-13653.html

Range is about 1200NM on internal fuel or 590 NM combat radius. With drop tanks should be easily able to get higher ranges. After ene,y air defences have been knocked out, it doesn't need to be flying stealth at all. It will be able to carry weapons like the CBU-97/105SFW, long range L/JDAMS/ER, Paveway families, upto 8 SDBs along with A2A weapons. Now combine Meteor or Aim-120D with long range detection, excellent situational awareness due to it's 360 degree censors, next gen EW capabilities, DAS, the most advanced piece of source code ever written which allows it to identify the widest number of A2A, A2G and A2S targets, gives the pilot a lot of confidence. It's engine can be uprated in order to allow for better aerial performance as the aircraft is just at the beginning of its operational life, gives enough time for upgrades.

It is having developement issues and with time will be ironed out.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby SKrishna » 14 Dec 2011 13:45

Trillion-Dollar Jet Has Thirteen Expensive New Flaws

In addition to costing more, the stealthy F-35 could take longer to complete testing. That could delay the stealthy jet's combat debut to sometime after 2018 - seven years later than originally planned. And all this comes as the Pentagon braces for big cuts to its budget while trying to save cherished but costly programs like the Joint Strike Fighter.

Frank Kendall, the Pentagon's top weapons-buyer, convened the so-called "Quick Look Review" panel in October. Its report - 55 pages of dense technical jargon and intricate charts - was leaked this weekend. Kendall and company found a laundry list of flaws with the F-35, including a poorly-placed tail hook, lagging sensors, a buggy electrical system and structural cracks.

Some of the problems - the electrical bugs, for instance - were becoming clear before the the Quick Look Review; others are brand-new. The panelists describe them all in detail and, for the first time, connect them to the program's underlying management problems. Most ominously, the report mentions - but does not describe - a "classified" deficiency. "Dollars to doughnuts it has something to do with stealth," aviation guru Bill Sweetman wrote. In other words, the F-35 might not be as invisible to radar as prime contractor Lockheed Martin said it would be. :eek: :eek:

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Singha » 14 Dec 2011 14:48

its a very complex a/c , with a raft of new things that all sound good on paper - if they work perfectly 100% of the time. I wouldnt be surprised if 2018 stretches to 2020 even.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby abhik » 15 Dec 2011 22:29

SaiK wrote:we have beaten this JSF to death. ucav is actually where future wars are going to be.. Boeing is already leading all the way 50 years from now r&ding their phantoms platforms.

I think the RQ-170 "hijacking" incident by Iran has sent "UCAVs replacing manned fighters" back by 10 years.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Philip » 15 Dec 2011 22:43

Abhik,the same thought crossed my mind.If it that easy to down a UAV,imagine a "hijacked" UCAV returning to bomb its own base!

Sweetman has hit the "sweet spot"! The manner in which IRST and other anti-stealth sensor developments have been taking place,may result in significant breakthroughs,so that by the time the JSF enters service with the USAF in 2019,it willl no longer be stealthy! Designed as we have seen in the first posts on the thread,to be no more air combat capable than an F-16,the JSF will be "Beijing Duck" at the cost of $120m per plate,the most expensive dish of the day! Beijing Duck or Thanksgiving Turkey,its going to taste the same ....leaving a very,very,bad taste in the mouth for those who ordered it!

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby SaiK » 15 Dec 2011 22:50

which is fine, actually you should consider the facts that it was not shot down but landed safely to avoid a crash, imho.

IRST etc also has range.. I see you before you see me actually wins. Losing UCAVs is better than losing men for the same job., In fact miniaturization will make it difficult for enemies to beat UCAVs.

UCAV is only beginning stages.. It has a very bright future.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Victor » 20 Dec 2011 06:37

Image
The JSF Heads Up Display (HUD). All in the helmet, nothing in the cockpit. The 3D/360 degree linkup with the airplane enables the pilot to shoot missiles at planes behind it. This is the level of tech we should be going for.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby shiv » 20 Dec 2011 07:11

Victor wrote:Image
The JSF Heads Up Display (HUD). All in the helmet, nothing in the cockpit. The 3D/360 degree linkup with the airplane enables the pilot to shoot missiles at planes behind it. This is the level of tech we should be going for.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... d=blogDest
Today, the killer problem with EO-DAS is latency: the image in the helmet lags 130 milliseconds behind sightline movement where the spec is under 40 ms. (So the video is where the pilot's head was pointed an eighth of a second ago.) That can't be fixed without changing the JSF's integrated core processor - the jet's central brain - and the EO-DAS sensors.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby RamaY » 20 Dec 2011 07:41

^ :rotfl:

Shivji has a very cruel sense of humor :mrgreen:

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Singha » 20 Dec 2011 07:55

looks like a chinese attempt to copy "master chief's" helmet from HALO.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Victor » 20 Dec 2011 08:07

This is the first time such a man-machine interface is being attempted and of course there will be problems to iron out. It will be ironed out soon enough but lifafa JSF baiters like Sweetman et al need to make a living in the meantime. LM expects it to be ready in a year or so.
Youtube Link

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Prasad » 20 Dec 2011 08:30

That helmet has been dropped because of difficulties in getting to work as expected. So they're taking a typhoon helmet and modifying it with american optics/electronics jugaad as a replacement. Both on cost and workability aspects it was better.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby shiv » 20 Dec 2011 08:50

Victor wrote:This is the first time such a man-machine interface is being attempted and of course there will be problems to iron out. It will be ironed out soon enough but lifafa JSF baiters like Sweetman et al need to make a living in the meantime. LM expects it to be ready in a year or so.


Victor, please don't take this as a criticism of you. It is not meant to be that. But your statement is interesting that you have confidence that "all problems will be ironed out". May I point out that this is the first time that such a man machine interface is being attempted by the Americans. At some future date when Indians try to do that, that the technology is not going to be given to them. They will have to go through the "first time pains" on their own, and hopefully will have more understanding Indians who have the same encouraging confidence that Indians show about American programs.

In general, Indians show more confidence that problems in non Indian nations will be ironed out than Indians ones. The reasons and ramifications of such a thought process are both interesting and revealing to me. That confidence is so prevalent among Indians that it surely affects the armed forces and babus too who all feel similarly confident that others will solve their technical problems soon. It becomes a defining characteristic of Indians.

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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby member_20067 » 20 Dec 2011 12:10


Victor
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Victor » 20 Dec 2011 13:20

Shiv that was an interesting angle about Indians supporting the efforts of Indians and others but you seem to have a concern which I don't share. Confidence is born out of a track record and that is why I am as certain that the JSF will resolve itself sooner than any other 5th Gen fighter as I am that there will be more problems along the way. That is how the JSF program is designed--operational aircraft in an ongoing developmental effort--to make problem solving more practical and quick. And that is how some of the most successful aircraft were "ironed out"--the P-51, Spitfire and MiG-21. The bottom line: the JSF is way ahead of any other 5th Gen airplane today bar the Raptor and it is a revolutionary concept that is bound to have a profound effect on how air forces are structured. Put another way, it *must* succeed for its partners and therefore it will.

Indians in general are quite capable of showing an equally high degree of confidence and support for similar Indian efforts and achievements, for eg organizations like ISRO, an educational system that has created a world-beating class of technocrats, a confident Indian private sector that is taking on the world, a confident Indian middle class, our info tech and R&D excellence and so on. So I don't worry about Indians supporting and cheering Indian efforts at achieving excellence of a global standard even though nobody gave us a helping hand in these spheres either. What I worry about is Indians supporting mediocrity just because it is Indian. That seems counterproductive to me.

Coming back to my post that drew your comment, as long as we are dependent on outsiders for our weapons, I believe it is crucial that we partner with the Americans more than anyone else now in every way we can and I am trying to provide some balance on this thread for what I see as a reflexive and irrational hatred of anything American by perhaps a vocal minority, based on a lopsided view of history. I am relieved that this attitude is not shared by the GoI or IAF as they have quickly purchased the American aircraft and weapons they think are right for the moment without hesitation. If the Americans are prickly allies, then we should be confident enough to not get pricked and behave accordingly, which is exactly what we have done.

Yes, the yanks did arm the pakis knowing full well that their weapons would be used against us but so did the French and Germans, the very same people we are depending on for the MRCA. The Russians have been the leading supplier of arms and arms technology for china (and therefore the pakis). Even after every single aircraft, engine, gun, tank, missile, submarine and ship was reverse engineered by the chinese, they still partnered with them for the Su-30MKK to do an equal-equal with the MKI and probably gave them the J-20 tech too. Arguably, this should be even more distateful to India than the American actions since it is the chinese who are the more dangerous foe. But I'm not against the Russians, French or Germans because of this. It's business and realpolitik and we have to deal with it the best we can.

Now my support for the JSF in IAF colors (in addition to the MRCA, not instead of it): Given the condition of Russia's crumbling tech base, political uncertainty and the global economy, I have zero confidence that the PAKFA will arrive and if it does, be anywhere close to the JSF although it may be comparable to the J-20. Our AMCA will most likely not be available in the timeframe that most of us percieve as critical--the next 5-10 years. The Rafale and Typhoon are yesterday's airplanes with unproven AESA radars and MRCA capabilities (with some reservation on the Rafale) but again, they are superior to the immediate threats we face. But they are not stealth aircraft by any stretch and regardless of what anyone says about how useless stealth is nowadays, everyone is going after it hammer and tong. The Americans are the only ones who have proven stealth technology and we are being offered the JSF but instead of support for it, there is an eagerness to lap up and regurgitate on this and related threads, everything published by anti-JSF authors like Bill Sweetman, an Englishman who has admitted that the success of the JSF will mean the death of European fighter production for ever. And the Aussie Kopp who, like a spoilt brat, will settle for nothing less than the Raptor and is p!ssed that the Americans won't give it to him. Note that neither of these gentlemen are anti-American, quite the contrary in fact. Sweetman prefers to live in America and Kopp knows that if it weren't for the yanks, his country's air force would be stark naked. There are others in the US itself who don't like the JSF but these guys are bad mouthing the JSF for reasons of their own that should have absolutely no bearing on India but some of us are embracing them nevertheless. After all the negative press, I would be surprised if Sweetman were to tweet this about the 1st JSF delivered to the Brits a few weeks ago:

..we are providing the men and women of the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy with unmatched 5th Generation capabilities, while delivering advanced technology sector jobs to the U.K..

Victor
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Victor » 20 Dec 2011 13:32

Prasad wrote:That helmet has been dropped .

It has not been dropped. LM has asked BAE to do the same thing while VSI Elbit tries to meet specs.

shiv
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby shiv » 20 Dec 2011 14:08

Victor wrote:Shiv that was an interesting angle about Indians supporting the efforts of Indians and others but you seem to have a concern which I don't share. Confidence is born out of a track record and that is why I am as certain that the JSF will resolve itself sooner than any other 5th Gen fighter



But I am in agreement with you. I did say that you have confidence that the American program will work well and soon. the reasons are unimportant to me. You confidence in America is shared by many Indians who have more confidence in America than in India. Based on track record of course. That is exactly what i pointed out.

It is the great confidence that Indians have in everyone else other than Indians and the reasons quoted for that attitude that never ceases to amaze me. You post also highlights something else. You see - you have said that the PAK-FA won'tr come on time. The Russians may disagree with you. Russian have confidence in Russia. And clearly, Indians too have confidence in Russia. In addition to having confidence in America. India is the only country on which no one really can really place any confidence. Interesting to me.

Neela
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Re: JSF,"turkey or talisman"?

Postby Neela » 20 Dec 2011 14:29

shiv wrote:
Victor wrote:Image
The JSF Heads Up Display (HUD). All in the helmet, nothing in the cockpit. The 3D/360 degree linkup with the airplane enables the pilot to shoot missiles at planes behind it. This is the level of tech we should be going for.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... d=blogDest
Today, the killer problem with EO-DAS is latency: the image in the helmet lags 130 milliseconds behind sightline movement where the spec is under 40 ms. (So the video is where the pilot's head was pointed an eighth of a second ago.) That can't be fixed without changing the JSF's integrated core processor - the jet's central brain - and the EO-DAS sensors.


Any person working in today's chip industry will laugh at this kind 200%+ change in specs. In the consumer segment, this kind of delays(130 ms as opposed to 40ms) will make the customer walk out of the company within seconds and you probably have lost the customer forever!

I am aware that military standards have far more stringent constraints but I believe that the improving the 130ms delay to 40ms is quite a challenge and cannot be done in 6 months! It will require a few years to sort this problem out. Making a few millisecond gains in every part of the architecture will be required.

To get an idea of the challenge, please have a look at this system architecture in the paper here whcih gives and idea about the places where delays can happen.
http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mason/pubs/sens ... 06-SoC.pdf
The setup on the JSF will be similar allthough every component will MIL-STD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIL-STD-810)

A very very broad description of the architecture will be like this: sensors typically work in the Analog domain and here, the delays are much larger. We then pass the signal to a Analog-to-Digital Converter and then via Input/Output interfaces( GPIOs) to the main processor. For signals that are received, it has to be processed (mathematical operations liek integrating etc ). Imagine now that the one of the parameters like an optical sensor is being used . There is a measurement delay (X1), pass this to ADC ( X2 delay), then to processor((X3 delay) , processing and mathematical calculation delay(X4) and then displaying to the HUD (X5). The total delay is X1 + X2 + X3 + X4 + X5 . Improving each part of this delay chain will be required.

To state that the central processor frequency is too low shows fundamental mismanagement from the design side. This means that there are
a) far too many signals and signal processing requirements competing for the processor"s attention that originally planne , therby causing delay
b) the processor frequency is low and the processing time is large resulting in delays.

Changing the core processor is like Samsung getting out a new phone model. Every part will have to be reworked or adapted for the new processor.
Few years is what it will take - I would surely expect this to happen if they have to change the processor.


EO-DAS has a page here: http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solut ... targeting/ - states that 6 EO sensors are being used.
It looks like this EO-DAS setup is separate from the flight control computer.


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