Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Nov 2011 21:27

SwamyG wrote: ps: Rajiv Malhotra and Aarvind managed to raise Rs1.5 lakhs for their tamil version of Breaking India in a matter of days.

Very nice to hear that. I couldn't participate in it

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 29 Nov 2011 21:31

ManishH: Based on your writing, I assume you have some expertise in the area of linguistics. What do you think needs to happen to set up a University or Working Research Group (WRG) that will do research work on our 'Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas'? What kind of scholars would that University/WRG need? Say we plan for this University to exist for at least 10 years. How many researchers, professors and assistants would it need? How much funds would be required?

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 29 Nov 2011 21:48

sanjeevpunj wrote:
RamaY wrote:Viv ji,
Mahabharata is available in almost all languages. Please get hold of a copy of AdiParva to understand Drona's life, motives and actions. And judge him yourself. Not that I cannot answer you question but my response will never satisfy your quest unless you read the source yourself.
My answer is that Drona is a guru. He has a right to accept or reject a student. We are trained to see everything from Caste perspective, that too with a negative mindset. If we want Ekalavya has his right to select a teacher, we should give Drona the same right.
The interesting this is nowhere Ekalavya questions/blames Drona. Why should we?
I agree, The Guru has the first right to reject/accept a disciple.Disciple must be submissive,Guru can command and direct the disciple.It is the disciple who needs the knowledge,and the Guru who can give it, so the disciple is duty-bound to be submissive.Dronacharya was always respected as the Guru, by Pandavas and Kauravas equally.

- Was not Laxman made to sit at the feet of Ravana, much against his wishes, to help him understand Rajniti.

When ideas like going easy on students are introduced, why is there almost no support amongst Indian Parents for that?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 Nov 2011 06:09

The story of Ravana teaching rajaneethi to Lakshman is not based on Valmiki Ramayana. It is one of the stories doing rounds. Lakshmanji is the Prince of Surya Dynasty and student of Vashista. He is from the court where great ministers like Sumantha etc were there. Does he need any fresh eduction from Ravana? Further how ever great may be the knowledge and birth of Ravana, is he a fit person to teach " Rajaneethi" which he never followed. One more thing is the Ravana was killed instantly after being it by a divine arrow from Prabhu Sri Rama Chandra. Will he have time to teach things or talk in the first place ust like Telugu movie second wife/heroine after being shot in the forehead or being stabbed 122 times?

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 30 Nov 2011 10:44

SwamyG wrote:ManishH: Based on your writing, I assume you have some expertise in the area of linguistics. What do you think needs to happen to set up a University or Working Research Group (WRG) that will do research work on our 'Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas'?

No claims of expertise

I was looking at Indian Universities who teach linguistics; and the best we have is JNU, DU, Calcutta Univ not very impressive faculty. Linguistics or philology doesen't need much of financial patronage from west, but can use some exposure to techniques.

The big contributions a foreign university can bring in the field is a comparative approach. West has developed tools to compare world languages, cultures and myths; these techniques[1] are sound and the discipline is self-critical; but often misused by few to exaggerate an east-west continuum[2] and downplay or flat out deny the temporal continuum that exists in India[3]. If foreign universities can get us more exposure to these techniques; that's one way to correct these biased narratives.

What kind of scholars would that University/WRG need? Say we plan for this University to exist for at least 10 years. How many researchers, professors and assistants would it need? How much funds would be required?

Indian scholars; a wide mix of teachers. From traditional Indian mutts, vedashalas as well as Western professors even with controversial publications. I mean, create an environment like Takshashila - where Buddhist teachers as well as Vedic ones taught even at a time of intense rivalry between them.

I don't agree with the school of thought that says "these are malicious disciplines; out to destroy Indian systems; so I'll keep my distance".

I agree with you on the lack of patronage being a big factor for Archaeology. Eg. an affordable Carbon dating facility to begin with ...

TIFR proposal to boost archaeological studies

"There are 45 carbon dating facilities globally, but India does not have a single reliable carbon dating facility, which is very important for dating archaeological artefacts"

--
[1] eg Georges Dumézil's work
[2] Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, J P Mallory & D. Anthony
[3] Unhinging Śiva from the Indus Civilization, D Srinivasn

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Nov 2011 20:54

Link to ref [3] above

http://www.jstor.org/pss/25211627

Not full article.

BTW D is for Doris not Dorairaj!

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 Nov 2011 23:40

I know one of the towns in costal AP library has lot of rare books etc which my frind was tring to digitalize. But he could not raise money for that purpose. Also one person in Hyderabad has lot of Audio items in Telug which know one has. For example Songs of Rau Balasaraswathi and other great singers of old times. No one is there to store them. We have also tried to collect Radio programmes of the old times. Most of them seems to be lost.

We hardly respect our heritage. No money for such things.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Dec 2011 05:33

Here is where the action is w.r.t. the Ramanujan's essay. Deepak Sharma, a RISA professor, wrote a blog in HP and he is receiving enough rebuttal: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-sa ... 19593.html

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Dec 2011 05:40

As far as digitization of some scriptures go....Himalayan Academy is doing Neela-Nalla service.

http://himalayanacademy.com/blog/taka/2 ... ndicherry/

Agama Reclamation Moves to the Next level

Computerizing the Saiva Agamas

More...

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Dec 2011 21:51

SwamyG wrote:
RamaY wrote:............read some Hindu texts and try to understand how our native system has been developed and sustained for thousands of years. And then try to understand how the western intellectual constructs are distorting the native system causing immense human and social loss.
Rama garu: Please okka list iyandi. On next visit to matrubhoomi, I will include those books as I scout the book stores of Chennai, Bengulru and Hyderabad.

SwamyG garu,
I doubt there is one single book which can free a deracinated mind. Perhaps that is not the approach we want to follow anyway. We want to read various Hindu texts in a logical manner and make our own inferences. We do not want to push any structures thru others' throats; unlike the deracinated people.

Below is my list.

1. My first recommendation to anyone is to read Vyasa Bharata and Valmiki Ramayana translations in one's mother tongue. Mahabharat gives the origins of various Seers, Kings, dharmic visionaries. Also read thru the origins of various Jatis and Kulas. The AncientIndians blog has a telugu manuscript of Ramayana written by Sri SatyaKS's father. It also narrates a fresh perspective on various races mentioned in Ramayana.

2. Then read thru various Smrits to and mentally map the evolution of the social customs and structures.

3. The third set is Puranas

4. Samkaras books
- Purushaartha nischaya
- Drik Drusya Vivechana
- Viveka Chudamani

5. Vedas

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 07 Dec 2011 22:19

RamaY wrote:I doubt there is one single book which can free a deracinated mind. Perhaps that is not the approach we want to follow anyway. We want to read various Hindu texts in a logical manner and make our own inferences. We do not want to push any structures thru others' throats; unlike the deracinated people.

Below is my list.

RamaY ji, even more "pre-logical" or "pre-cultural" to the good list you gave would be to include the "tantra-chatushtaya" as part of a systematic education in India:
1. Vyakarana (at a linguistic level, not necessarily language-specific)
2. Nyaya / Tarka
3. Mimamsa
4. followed by an intro to Vedanta.

Without the above, most people would not be able to do what you wish - to "read thru various Smrits to and mentally map the evolution of the social customs and structures."

The above are also secular in nature, and there is no logical objection to including them in curricula. They can be applied by the student to any culture, religion or subject in the humanities or abstract sciences. OTOH, the curricula you suggested was not culturally neutral, and in fact even within Hinduism was derived solely from the Shankarite school.

Moreover, reading translations of scripture in native languages is not without distortion. E.g., in Tamil the word "karmam" has come to mean something like "bad luck". In most languages the word "maya" has come to mean "meaningless illusion". This semantic is not necessarily found in the original Sanskrit, but is due to certain religious movements that swept society in more recent times. Learning the principles of Vyakarana should be enough to give the student a more incisive reading of terms, even if they do not intend to actually learn Sanskrit itself as a language.

Lastly, by putting the focus on the above, true and free debate can happen, from all sides. OTOH, by focussing on smritis and certain Vedantic schools, the contradictions and conflicts will only cause more confusion, without going to the roots.

The tantra-chatushtaya, therefore, is a true education, enabling and empowering the individual with the intellectual tools necessary to research the data himself/herself, and draw his/her own conclusions. This would be the real Indic approach, without the "social / cultural engineering" of the deracinated types. It is the pre-requisite curriculum recommended by acharyas like Madhva. It is the basis on which he challenged other schools and proposed a superior Vedanta, without recourse to arbitrary authority or sentimental biases. These pre-requisites need to be systematized and made a part of regular curriculum, IMHO.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Dec 2011 22:45

Thanks Carl garu,

Of course I was talking about Verbatim translations. I heard Rajaji did a good translation of Ramayana in to Tamil.

For Children I would go with this list.

1. Pancha Tantra
2. Amarakosa (Simply bi-heart this so one understand the meaning of various words)
3. Potana Bhagavatam (in Telugu, I am sure there are similar translations of Vyasa Bhagavatam in other Indic languages)
4. Birtruhari Subhashitams (for kids I would avoid the Kanyapaddhati, Sringara paddhati etc - but they need to bi-heart and understand the Moorkha, Vidwat, MaanaSaurya, Artha, Durjana, Sujana, Paropakara, Dhairya, Daiva, Karma etc Paddhatis) At the end of this they should be able to classify a person by their behavior; and understand what qualities make them a Sajjana/Dheera/Vidwat etc.

A small story - In my young days I used to be a little prejudiced about my family's economic situation. But everytime I was down I was reminded (by my own memory/Buddhi) a Birtruhari poem

Kwaschiprudhvisayya: Kwachidapi Cha Paryankasayana:
Kwachichchakara: Kwachidapi cha saalyodana ruchi:
Kwachitkamdhadhari kwachidapi cha divyambaradharo'
Manaswi kaaryarthi na ganayati du:kham na cha sukham

My translation:
Sleeps on floor sometimes and sleeps on lavish beds other times
Eats raw vegitables at times and eats great feasts other times
Wears rags one day and expensive silk another day
A Dhariya Purusha doesn't bring these things to mind/manas. Pleasure and Displeasure doesn't touch the brave.

and alaas my low moments are gone in a second. I am a Dhairya purusha in just a moment.

One should (In my humble opinion) read the following before marriage
1. Birtruhari subhashitam - Kanta, Sringara etc paddhatis
2. Vatsayana Kamasutra
3. A good bhashya on Vivaaha Mantras

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Dec 2011 23:05

A collection of subhashitams:

Subhashita Sangraha

A sampler in pdf

Susbhashitaaani

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 08 Dec 2011 18:27

Agreed. One needs to get a picture by reading and studying the past by careful and voracious reading. That is why I asked you a list

The one I have in your list is Viveka Chudamani, I have others. Pretty soon I will have an opportunity to replenish my stock of books. If you have anybody in Chennai, get in touch with them - Chennai 2012 book fair is between Jan 5th and Jan 17th. Unfortunately I might miss that event and I have to stick to English reading and no mother-tongue reading for me.

http://www.bapasi.com/chennaibookfair2012.asp

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Dec 2011 03:06

Its amazing to compare Brhatruhari subhashitams with later day doha and ghazals.

Shows a decline of verbs and action.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 09 Dec 2011 03:15

ramana wrote:Its amazing to compare Brhatruhari subhashitams with later day doha and ghazals.

Shows a decline of verbs and action.

Could you give an example ramana garu?

Interestingly, Allama Iqbal, whom Pakis consider their spiritual founder, pompously quotes Bhartrihari as an opening verse to one of his diwaans!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 09 Dec 2011 03:24

I found this by some Sandeep

Bhartruhari: King, Poet and Sage Par Excellence

Those familiar with Sanskrit–even an introductory course is sufficient–are sure to know Bhartruhari mainly via reading several Subashitaas (noble sayings in verse form). Indeed, almost every other verse by Bhartruhari is a Subashitaa.

A King of Ujjain, Bhartruhari was the elder step brother of his more renowned sibling, Vikramaditya. His life presents to us a living account of a person’s transformation from a pleasure-loving emperor who had everything at his disposal to a sage who gave us the immortal Shataka trilogy.

Bhartruhari was fiercely enamoured of his newly-wedded wife Pingala, a fact which caused Vikramaditya considerable anguish for the elder brother neglected his kingly duties preferring to spend his life in her arms. Pingala on her part conspired and had Vikramaditya thrown out of Ujjain.

A Brahmin once gave Bhartruhari a fruit that when eaten would increase the king’s lifespan. An infatuated Bhartruhari handed the fruit to his wife. Pingala in turn, preferred the intimate company of the chief horse-keeper to whom she gave the fruit. The horse-keeper was in love with a prostitute. In the end, the fruit found itself in the prostitute’s hands. To me, the prostitute emerges as a stellar character in this whole episode. She sensed the importance of the fruit, and found it fit to give it to the king whom she believed was a wise and just ruler barring his wifely obsession of course.

Bharturhari was counselling with his nobles when the prostitute praised the greatness of the fruit, told him she was unfit of such a lofty gift and gifted it to him. He ate the fruit and in a flash realized that it was the very fruit that he had lovingly gifted to Pingala. This singular incident made him realize the worthlessness of it all. He turned his back on worldly life and took to renunciation. The Niti Shataka has an extremely poignant verse that describes this state of Bhartruhari:

Yaam chintayaami satatam mayi saa viraktaa
Saapyanyamicchati janam sa janonyasaktah
Asmatkrute ca parishushyati kaachidanyaa
Dhik taam ca tam ca madanam ca imaam ca maam ca

(A very crude translation follows)
The One upon whom I meditate perpetually is detached from me but
(She) desires another and the Other (desires) yet another
Thus it goes always, this desire to always desire another
Fie on her, on him, on Madana (God of Love), on all this and fie on me too!

From King Bhartruhari, he became an ascetic, a tapasvi (the literal meaning of tapas is “to burn”) and from the ashes he burnt his passions into arose the immortal Shatakatraya: the Neeti, Shringara, and Vairagya Shatakas.

The Shringara Shataka deals mainly with various facets of erotic love; it goes to great lengths to describe nuances of feminine allurement, their behaviour in various stages of sensual arousal, and suchlike. Here’s a sample:

Prangma meti manaaganaagatrasam jaatabhilaasham tatah
Sabriyam tadanu shlathodyatamanupradhvastadhairyam punah
Premardra saprihniyanirbharah kridapragalbham tato
Ni shankaangvikarshnaadiksukham ramyam kulstree ratam

(My somewhat-liberal translation)
Noble women repulse sexual advances when dormant lies Desire
As Desire grows they loosen their limbs, shyness comes to the fore, they yawn repeatedly
Patience receding, they submit to the will of the partner, the noble women
At this critical pass,
Enjoy stroking, caressing, fondling, kissing and all other foreplay.

The reason Bhartruhari took time and effort to pen some absolutely erotic verses has its roots in the Indian conception of asethetics. A king himself who had enjoyed every kind of sensual pleasure, Bhartruhari took care not to trivialize any aspect of life and experience including the sensual. Indian art experience viewed as a whole is all-inclusive: nothing is shun-worthy. The end of sense-pleasure as various schools of philosophy state is self-realization, which is the end Shringara Shataka has in mind. As this verse testifies:

Dhaanyaasta aiv tarlaayatlochanaanaam
Taarunyarupdhana peenpayodharaanaam
Kshaamodaroparilasattrivali leeltaanaam
Drishtaakritim vikritimeti mano na yeshaam

(Crude translation follows)
Those alone are fortunate whose mind
Is not consumed by weakness to cast their eyes
On a pretty young damsel whose eyes twitter incessantly
(Who) is endowed with well-developed breasts and an alluring figure

And in the Vairagya Shataka he says there are only two ways one can live: indulge or take to asceticism. While this might seem extreme, Bhartruhari underscores the essential futility of trying simultaneously to indulge in relentless pleasure and desire eternal peace.

agre gitam sarasakavayaH paarshvayordakshiiNaatyaaH
pashchaalliilaavalayaraNita.n chaamaragraahiNiinaam.h .
yadyastveva.n kuru bhavarasaasvaadane lampaTatva.n
no chechchetaH pravisha sahasaa nirvikalpe samaadhau

If there be music playing in front of you, by your side expert poets from the South,
and behind you the courtesans waving fans and shaking their bracelets with a clinking
sound, then indulge unstintingly in these worldly pleasures. If not, O Mind! enter
the realm of beatitude devoid of all thoughts.

Bhartruhari’s trilogy encompasses almost every experience known to man and pours them forth in beautiful poetry. It provides philosophy to those interested in it, metrical delight to those who revel in it, morality to those who seek it… everybody unfailingly gains from it depending on what they look for. Ultimately, Bhartruhari’s name stands firm to this hour owing to this. His own verse, which soulfully describes the eternity of a true artist equally apply to him:

Jayanti te sukrrutino rasasidhdha kavishvaraha
Naasti yesham yasha kaye jaramaranajam bhayam
An artist who is accomplished in Rasa (crudely translated, it means aesthetics) stands forever victorious
His body verily the embodiment of success needs no fear
Of old age and death.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 09 Dec 2011 04:26

Barthruhari's Nitishatkam is a simple nice and easy to read book.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 09 Dec 2011 11:44

15th WORLD SANSKRIT CONFERENCE New Delhi, 5th - 10th January 2012

There are sessions on Vedas, Itahasa&Puranas, Tantra, Poetics, Vyakarana, Contribution of Sanskrit to Philosophy, Science, Law etc.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 10 Dec 2011 09:59

Does anybody know if "Badrayan's Brahmsutras" are available online with hindi translation?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Dec 2011 10:45

Manish< My father used to have an English translation of the Brahmasutras.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 10 Dec 2011 12:37

Manish_Sharma wrote:Does anybody know if "Badrayan's Brahmsutras" are available online with hindi translation?

Brahmasutras with commentary by Shri Madhva, but its in Sanskrit.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 10 Dec 2011 13:18

RamaY wrote:Thanks Carl garu,

Of course I was talking about Verbatim translations. I heard Rajaji did a good translation of Ramayana in to Tamil.

For Children I would go with this list.

1. Pancha Tantra
2. Amarakosa (Simply bi-heart this so one understand the meaning of various words)
3. Potana Bhagavatam (in Telugu, I am sure there are similar translations of Vyasa Bhagavatam in other Indic languages)
4. Birtruhari Subhashitams (for kids I would avoid the Kanyapaddhati, Sringara paddhati etc - but they need to bi-heart and understand the Moorkha, Vidwat, MaanaSaurya, Artha, Durjana, Sujana, Paropakara, Dhairya, Daiva, Karma etc Paddhatis) At the end of this they should be able to classify a person by their behavior; and understand what qualities make them a Sajjana/Dheera/Vidwat etc.

A small story - In my young days I used to be a little prejudiced about my family's economic situation. But everytime I was down I was reminded (by my own memory/Buddhi) a Birtruhari poem

Kwaschiprudhvisayya: Kwachidapi Cha Paryankasayana:
Kwachichchakara: Kwachidapi cha saalyodana ruchi:
Kwachitkamdhadhari kwachidapi cha divyambaradharo'
Manaswi kaaryarthi na ganayati du:kham na cha sukham

My translation:
Sleeps on floor sometimes and sleeps on lavish beds other times
Eats raw vegitables at times and eats great feasts other times
Wears rags one day and expensive silk another day
A Dhariya Purusha doesn't bring these things to mind/manas. Pleasure and Displeasure doesn't touch the brave.

and alaas my low moments are gone in a second. I am a Dhairya purusha in just a moment.
One should (In my humble opinion) read the following before marriage
1. Birtruhari subhashitam - Kanta, Sringara etc paddhatis
2. Vatsayana Kamasutra
3. A good bhashya on Vivaaha Mantras

Saar,
you did not mention Valmiki Ramayana!!

Ramayana is a must for people of all classes and all ages. It is entertaining and enlightening.

My blog about Srimadh Ramayana:
http://orgvalmikiramayana.blogspot.com/

And Bhagavad Gita should be read by anyone above 16yrs. It changes the very outlook of a person towards everything...

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 10 Dec 2011 13:27

Narayana Rao wrote:The story of Ravana teaching rajaneethi to Lakshman is not based on Valmiki Ramayana. It is one of the stories doing rounds. Lakshmanji is the Prince of Surya Dynasty and student of Vashista. He is from the court where great ministers like Sumantha etc were there. Does he need any fresh eduction from Ravana? Further how ever great may be the knowledge and birth of Ravana, is he a fit person to teach " Rajaneethi" which he never followed. One more thing is the Ravana was killed instantly after being it by a divine arrow from Prabhu Sri Rama Chandra. Will he have time to teach things or talk in the first place ust like Telugu movie second wife/heroine after being shot in the forehead or being stabbed 122 times?

+108. Couldnt have put it better...

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 10 Dec 2011 13:48

sanjeevpunj wrote:
RamaY wrote:Viv ji,
Mahabharata is available in almost all languages. Please get hold of a copy of AdiParva to understand Drona's life, motives and actions. And judge him yourself. Not that I cannot answer you question but my response will never satisfy your quest unless you read the source yourself.
My answer is that Drona is a guru. He has a right to accept or reject a student. We are trained to see everything from Caste perspective, that too with a negative mindset. If we want Ekalavya has his right to select a teacher, we should give Drona the same right.
The interesting this is nowhere Ekalavya questions/blames Drona. Why should we?
I agree, The Guru has the first right to reject/accept a disciple.Disciple must be submissive,Guru can command and direct the disciple.It is the disciple who needs the knowledge,and the Guru who can give it, so the disciple is duty-bound to be submissive.Dronacharya was always respected as the Guru, by Pandavas and Kauravas equally.

Karna, the perceived son of chariot-driver, was a disciple of Dronacharya. So, if Dronacharya was prejudiced against teaching to 'lower castes' then why did he teach to Karna?

Later, he trained under Parashurama for advanced studies. He was cursed for lying about his caste. The point to remember is that he was cursed for lying and not for belonging to another caste.

Parshurama was not averse to training the Kshatriyas as illustrated by his training Bhishma. Bhishma(or Devrata) was also a student of Parashurama.

Lord Sri Krishna, Himself, was subjected to banter for being an Yadava. This is confessed by Arjuna in Bhagavad Gita itself.

Dronacharya, Kripacharya, and Ashwattama participated in wars despite being brahmins. In the final war, Bhima taunts Dronacharya for this when Dronacharya lashes out at Bhima for being disrespectful to teacher.

In short, caste situation in Mahabhaarat is complex just as it is in modern-day India. Infact, classes and class based discrimination is/was prevalent in all societies. The only difference being, the classes are, now, based on material wealth.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 10 Dec 2011 14:20

@Johnee_g, I have not read Mahabharat, but based on the depiction in BR Chopra's TV serial, Karna was denied entry to Dronacharya's Gurukul (since he is a "Sut-putra"). This is the reason he goes to Parashurama.

About Bhishma becoming Dronacharya's disciple. This is the explanation I found via google-chacha "Ganga Matha could have told Parasurama that her son Devratha (later to be known as Bhishma) was one of the Asta-Vasus named Prabhasa due to a curse." (link http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 808AAAfYJh ).

Entry barriers(as well as short-cuts) to various professions (and consequently education for these professions) have existed always. They exist even today. For example, a person who has never passed (10+2) might be great at math, physics, chemistry, but he will never be granted admission in a university to become an engineer. Many universities in US give preference to children if their parent is a graduate from the same university.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 10 Dec 2011 14:48

prahaar wrote:@Johnee_g, I have not read Mahabharat, but based on the depiction in BR Chopra's TV serial, Karna was denied entry to Dronacharya's Gurukul (since he is a "Sut-putra"). This is the reason he goes to Parashurama.

I have heard a discourse from Malladi Chandrashekara Shastri, a reputed expert in Mahabhaarata. In that, he has clearly said that Karna was primarily a student of Dronacharya. Karna learnt only some advanced knowledge from Parashurama. Karna goes to Parashurama to learn Advanced Astras. Drona taught Brahma Astra to Arjuna for he was the best student. Drona taught his pestering son only the initiation of that Astra hoping that his son would not use that Astra because he knew it only partially. But he was proved wrong.

Arjuna also learnt Divya(divine) Astras from the Devetas(Gods) and Paashupata Astra from Lord Mahadeva(Shiva).

To counter Arjuna, Karna had to learn some advanced Astras too.

According to Malladi, Drona's ashram was near Dehradun. The students used to learn(and test) their Astras(mantric missiles) there.

I will check in english translation of Mahabhaarata to verify whether is collaborates Malladi's view.

prahaar wrote: About Bhishma becoming Dronacharya's disciple. This is the explanation I found via google-chacha "Ganga Matha could have told Parasurama that her son Devratha (later to be known as Bhishma) was one of the Asta-Vasus named Prabhasa due to a curse." (link http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 808AAAfYJh ).

Correction: Bhisma was Parashurama's disciple and not Drona. (Maybe its a typo by you).

The answer:Maybe Ganga Matha said that. Even if Ganga Matha did not say, Parashurama would know.

But the point is: If Parashurama was averse to teaching non-brahmins, as is popularly portrayed, then he wouldnt teach to a non-brahmin regardless of his past or future life. All the peronalitiess in Mahabhaarata are an incarnation of someone or the other. Karna is fathered by Sun(Surya Deva). So, if Bhishma can be exempted, then Karna can also be exempted. Then, why curse Karna?

prahaar wrote: Entry barriers(as well as short-cuts) to various professions (and consequently education for these professions) have existed always. They exist even today. For example, a person who has never passed (10+2) might be great at math, physics, chemistry, but he will never be granted admission in a university to become an engineer. Many universities in US give preference to children if their parent is a graduate from the same university.

Valid point. However, there must be some leeway or mobility to reward and punish the behaviour of Individuals. It seems to me that under the influence of Islamist and brit aggressors, this leeway or mobility was lost. It seems to me that number of castes and sub-castes multiplied under these foreign rules. The attitudes also seem to have become more rigid and dogmatic, perhaps as a defence mechanism or perhaps as an influence.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 10 Dec 2011 14:52

BTW, guys, today is Lunar Eclipse for 52 min(longest till 2018). It starts at 5:02 and ends at 11:00. According to the shaastras, any japas and tapas during the eclipse bestow amplified results.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 11 Dec 2011 06:06

ramana wrote:Manish< My father used to have an English translation of the Brahmasutras.

Ramana ji, It'd be great if you can find it. It's said to be that last and deepest word on Moksha, Nirvana, Enlightenment.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 11 Dec 2011 06:07

Carl wrote: Brahmasutras with commentary by Shri Madhva, but its in Sanskrit.

Thank you Carl ji, I'll try to get it translated!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Dec 2011 06:17

prahaar wrote:@Johnee_g, I have not read Mahabharat, but based on the depiction in BR Chopra's TV serial, Karna was denied entry to Dronacharya's Gurukul (since he is a "Sut-putra"). This is the reason he goes to Parashurama.

That is the problem with most of us prahaar ji. We would rather spend ~200hrs watching BRChopra's Mahabharat that is based on various versions of MB some of them being Buddhist and jainist interpretations instead of spending 100 hrs reading VyasaBharatam in our mother tongue.

These people cannot see a MB or Ramayana without casteist and exploitist eyes. That is pushed thru the rest of Bharat's throats.

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 11 Dec 2011 07:03

Isn't there a new translation by Bibek Debroy of the entire Mahabharat in English? I think Volume 4 just released. From the reviews I've read, its the whole Mahabharat, side stories and all rather than an abridgment which I see everywhere. Also, its not written from the perspective of one particular viewpoint. I remember I had found the entire Mahabharat translation, but it was done by a Hare Krishna follower. I think his overzealousness kind of ruined the story in my eyes. None of the other characters received decent treatment except Krishna.

EDIT: I found this great article about newer versions of the Mahabharat that are being released. Technically, its from 2009 but there are quite a few! It's a good article, take a look!

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090329/j ... 740086.jsp

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 11 Dec 2011 11:25

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Carl wrote: Brahmasutras with commentary by Shri Madhva, but its in Sanskrit.
Thank you Carl ji, I'll try to get it translated!

English translation of Adi Shankara Bhagavatpada's bhashya(commentary) on Brahma Sutras.
http://www.bharatadesam.com/spiritual/b ... _index.php

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Dec 2011 04:06

I got vol I and II of this version of Mahabharata last weekend:

van Buitenen translation of Mahabharata

Still looking for Vol III

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 13 Dec 2011 16:30

Ahaa Arunji...even a good man like Bali was crossed by Vaman? why???

Marichi was born from absolute Brahma. His son was Kashyapa*. Kashyapa, being one of the Prajapatis, was ordered by Lord Brahma to reproduce creatures. In order to fulfill the task, he married 8 daughters of Daksha Prajapati namely Aditi, Diti, Danu, Kaalakaa, Taamra, Krodhavasha, Manu and Anala.

Sons of Aditi and Kashyapa are known as Adityas(Gods). They are 12 Adityas, 8 Vasus, 11 Rudras and 2 Ashwinis. The total number equals 33. These are the 33 categories of Gods.

When Hinduism talks about 33 koti of Gods, the word 'koti' is not crore. 'Koti' means category and is not denoting any number. The colonial and missionary indologists wrongly interpreted the term 'Koti' to mean 10 millions/1 crore.

Indra was appointed by Lord Brahma as the the King of Heaven and Gods for a period of 1 Manavantara. Brihaspati(or Vachaspati) is the preceptor of Devas(Gods).

Descendents of Danu were called Danavas. Hayagriva was the son of Danu. Hayagriva was slain by Lord Vishnu's incarnation of Hayagriva.

Kaalaka had two sons namely Naraka and Kalaka.

Tamra gave birth to 5 girls namely, Krounchi, Bhaasi, Shyeni, Dhritaraashtri, and Shuki. Various birds descended from these 5 girls.

Krodhavasha gave birth to 10 daughters namely Mrigi, Mrigamanda, Hari, Bhadramanda, Maatangii, Sharduulii, Shweta, Surabhii, Surasa, and Kadruva. Various animals descended from these 10 daughters.

Children of Manu, another wife of Kashyapa, are called Manushya(Human Beings).

Descendents of Anala are various fauna.

Diti had two sons Hiranya-Kashyapa and Hiranya-Aksha. Hiranya-Aksha was slain by Lord Vishnu as Varaha Avtar when he attempted to confiscate the earth to himself.

Hiranya-Kashyapa had a son named Prahladha. Prahladha was an ardent devotee of Lord Vishnu, while his father Hiranya-Kashyapa considered Lord Vishnu as mortal enemy. Soon, the son and father were on collision course. Lord Vishnu incarnated as Narasimha to protect Prahladha and punish Hiranya-Kashyapa. On this occasion, Prahladha was given a promise that Lord would never kill any of Prahladha's descendents.

Prahladha's son was Virochana and Virochana's son was Bali. Thus, Bali is the grand-son of Prahladha.

Shukra-Acharya was the preceptor of Daityas(descendents of Diti).

Bali became the King of Daityas. He wanted to defeat the arch-enemy Devas, occupy Heaven and become its ruler. Why? Because Heaven is the seat of various unlimited luxuries. Also, winning Heaven means gaining control of the various worlds. For this purpose, Bali approached his preceptor Shukra-Acharya. Shukra-Acharya gave him a mantra to chant. Bali did as prescribed. Meanwhile, Shukra-Acharya performed other rites to make the Daityas invincible.

In course of time, Bali achieved success in his Mantra and Goddess Lakshmi blessed him. Now, Bali had the blessings of God and Guru, so he marched with his army to gain control of Heaven.

Meanwhile, Indra had, on an occassion, disregarded his preceptor Brihaspati. Brihaspati retired to Kashi from Heaven.

The army of Bali attacked the Heaven and Indra's forces suffered a setback. Soon, Heaven was under the reign of Bali and with that he gain the control of the three worlds.

Indra fled from Heaven and went searching for his Guru to save him. At last, he found him in Kashi and prayed him to save his empire. Brihaspati prescribed a course to invoke Lord Vishnu. Aditi, the mother of Indra and wife of Kashyapa, also performed a Tapas to please Lord Vishnu and obtain his protection for her Son, Indra. Pleased with her Tapas, Lord Vishnu promised Aditi that He would soon alleviate the difficulties of Indra.

As promised, Lord Vishnu was born as the son of Aditi. Since, He was now the younger brother of Indra, He was called Upendra. Since the boy was a dwarf, He was called Vamana.

Since Bali is the descendent of Prahladha, Lord Vishnu was bound by his earlier word to Prahladha that He would not kill the descendents of Prahladha. So, the Lord devised an interesting plan and went to Bali to ask donations.

At this time, Bali was performing a religion rite. Lord Vamana entered the assembly. Bali looked at the young boy and pleased with His radiance and spiritual splendour told Him to ask for any gift. Lord requested a gift of land measuring His 3 footsteps. Bali was obviously surprised. Since, the boy was dwarf, His footsteps would be very small. Bali urged the boy to request a gift befitting the donor's stature. The divine boy was insistent on His demand. Bali agreed. Bali's wife(I think her name is Sulochana), immediately brought a kettle(Kamandalam) of pure water to complete the rite signifying the donation.

Shukra-Acharya, the preceptor of Daityas, recognised the boy as none other than the disguised Lord and he immediately warned Bali not to gift anything to the boy. Bali, the noble-minded, defied his Guru's orders. Bali reasoned that charity is highest virtue and if one gets an opportunity to donate something to the Lord Himself, then what greater honour!

So, Bali took the kettle(Kamandalam) of water to perform the rite of donation. Shukra-Acharya was angered by Bali's defiance. Still, wanting to protect Bali's empire, Shukra-Acharya adopted a tiny form and impeded the mouth of Kettle(Kamandalam), thereby stopping the water's flow and holding the donation from happening.

The omniscient boy took a blade of glass and poke it into the mouth of Kettle(Kamandalam) to clear it. The blade went into eye of Shukra-Acharya and he was blinded in that eye. Angered by this, Shukra-Acharya cursed Bali that he would lose his empire. So, Bali lost his Guru's blessings.

Inspite of that, Bali completed the rite of donation. So, now Bali had donated 3 foot-steps of land to the dwarf. Then a splendid event occured. The dwarf boy started increasing His body. It grew and grew. And it kept growing. He acquired a huge a form and still He did not stop growing. The glowing sun seemed like a big rock in his crown. The boy grew further and the sun appeared as a jewel in His ear. The boy kept growing and the Sun seemed like a diamond in His necklace. The splendid Lord kept growing even as the Sun sparkled like a gem in His belt. The mighty Lord's growth continued and soon the Sun resembled a crystal in His anklet. Finally, the Lord stopped growing when the Sun seemed like a dust under His feet.

Then, the Lord put His foot on Earth claiming it. He put another foot into the sky and claiming all of it. Now, the Lord asked Bali where His third step is to be placed because everything has been mapped by Him. Bali replied that Lord place His foot on his head. Lord did as requested.

Now, that Lord claimed everything for Himself. He reinstated Indra at the helm. Bali lost his empire on the earth and was banished from there along with the Daityas to Patala.

Lord gave Bali an empire of Patala(netherworld) and promised him that he would be the next Indra.

Why did Bali suffer a setback at all?
a) Because he lost the blessings of his Guru.
b) Because when Goddess Lakshmi blessed him as a result of his chanting of mantra, he became vain and arrogant. He assumed that since he had chanted the mantra, the Goddess was now his slave. This attitude borne fruit as a setback.

Why did Indra suffer a setback?
Because he disregarded his Guru.

Why the banishment of Daityas?
The Daityas' presence on earth was not beneficent to other populace on earth.

There are 2 Indra seats in the world. One is in Heaven and the other is in Patala(netherworld). Bali wanted to become an Indra. But that seat was already owned by the present Indra. Bali cannot take that seat, even if he was qualified for it. He has to wait till the present Indra's term comes to end. But, Bali didnt wait. He occupied the Indra seat overthrowing the present Indra.

Lord Vishnu simply stopped this illegal occupation. But, since Bali was qualified to become an Indra, as proved by his act of donation fully knowing that Lord had come to deceive him, Bali was selected as next Indra. Meanwhile, Bali was installed as Indra of Patala(netherworld). Bali's wish of becoming an Indra of Heaven would be fulfilled in future. So, Lord did full justice to both Bali and Indra.

Son of Bali was Bhanasura. Bhanasura's daughter loved Anirudha, grandson of Sri Krishna.

Btw, regarding Sri Ram and Sita, why do you think they got married on "Navami" while it is not a suggested "tithi" by any panchanga? and "Navami" muhurtham was suggested by Vishwamitra. Why? He foresaw the becoming of Ravan is the only logic I could interpret. Same could be said of "Ashtami"? I don't know. Anyways all this is OT

As far as I have read and heard, there is no mention of any Muhurtham of marriage of Sri Rama and Sita in Valmiki Ramayana.

Rama Navami is the day of Rama's birth. 9 signifies unchanging Brahman.
9+9=18, 1+8=9
9*1=09, 0+9=9
9*2=18, 1+8=9
9*3=27, 2+7=9
9*4=36, 3+6=9
9*5=45, 4+5=9

Rama Navami is celebrated in Northern India by performing Birthday celebrations. In Southern India by performing a wedding ceremony of Sri Rama and Sita. This is done using a rule that wedding ceremony can be celebrated on birthdays of deities. Badrachalam is famous for celebration of Sri Rama and Sita's wedding every year on Rama Navami.

footnote: * It is to be remembered that Marichi, Kashyapa, and his wives are not human beings. They are not limited by human features.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Dec 2011 16:48

johneeG wrote:
Lord gave Bali an empire of Patala(netherworld) and promised him that he would be the next Indra.

Why did Indra suffer a setback?
Because he disregarded his Guru.

Why the banishment of Daityas?
The Daityas' presence on earth was not beneficent to other populace on earth.

There are 2 Indra seats in the world. One is in Heaven and the other is in Patala(netherworld). Bali wanted to become an Indra. But that seat was already owned by the present Indra. Bali cannot take that seat, even if he was qualified for it. He has to wait till the present Indra's term comes to end. But, Bali didnt wait. He occupied the Indra seat overthrowing the present Indra.

Lord Vishnu simply stopped this illegal occupation. But, since Bali was qualified to become an Indra, as proved by his act of donation fully knowing that Lord had come to deceive him, Bali was selected as next Indra. Meanwhile, Bali was installed as Indra of Patala(netherworld). Bali's wish of becoming an Indra of Heaven would be fulfilled in future. So, Lord did full justice to both Bali and Indra.

footnote: * It is to be remembered that Marichi, Kashyapa, and his wives are not human beings. They are not limited by human features.

Small there are not 2 Indra's but each Indra's life lasts only as long as the Manu, Current Manu is Vaisvastha Manu and Indra Purandhara, once this Indra lifetime ends Bali will be incarnated as the next Indra when this Manu's lifetime ends.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 13 Dec 2011 16:53

Aditya_V wrote:
johneeG wrote:

There are 2 Indra seats in the world. One is in Heaven and the other is in Patala(netherworld). Bali wanted to become an Indra. But that seat was already owned by the present Indra. Bali cannot take that seat, even if he was qualified for it. He has to wait till the present Indra's term comes to end. But, Bali didnt wait. He occupied the Indra seat overthrowing the present Indra.

Lord Vishnu simply stopped this illegal occupation. But, since Bali was qualified to become an Indra, as proved by his act of donation fully knowing that Lord had come to deceive him, Bali was selected as next Indra. Meanwhile, Bali was installed as Indra of Patala(netherworld). Bali's wish of becoming an Indra of Heaven would be fulfilled in future. So, Lord did full justice to both Bali and Indra.

footnote: * It is to be remembered that Marichi, Kashyapa, and his wives are not human beings. They are not limited by human features.
Small there are not 2 Indra's but each Indra's life lasts only as long as the Manu, Current Manu is Vaisvastha Manu and Indra Purandhara, once this Indra lifetime ends Bali will be incarnated as the next Indra when this Manu's lifetime ends.

I have heard in a discourse that there are two seats/positions of Indra. One in heaven and the other in Patala(netherworld). While, everyone aspires and dreams of being an Indra in Heaven, no one wants to be an Indra of Patala. So, the Indra seat of Patala was vacant, while both Bali and Indra were fighting for the Indra seat of Heaven. So, the Lord promised Bali that he would be the next Indra of Heaven. Till then, Bali was installed as the Indra of Patala.

Yep, I mentioned that Indra was installed for a period of one Manvantara(period of Manu). Yes, current Manu is Vaivasvatha Manu.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 13 Dec 2011 17:34

Thanks JohneeG for writing it so elaborately. Regarding Sri Rama's marriage, one of the many objectives and an important one of Sri Rama's janma is to relieve his "dwarapalakas" Jaya and Vijaya from the shraap of Durvasa. So, here comes Ravana and Khumbhakarna in Treta Yuga. Now, if Sri Rama and Sita were to be married on a non-navami day, they could have a happy married life which is not the janma rahasya of Sri Rama's. 2 reasons which tells us why Sri Rama and Sita shouldn't have a happy married life: 1) Kill Ravana & Kumbhakarna after Sita's Kidnap 2) Sri Rama as an incarnation of Lord Vishnu has to return to Vaikunta once his janma-rahasya is fulfilled. So, obviously Sita had to leave Sri Rama in the end with Bhoodevi and Rama's avatar thereafter.

Now, Vishwamitra, with his powers of dooradrishti, knew all this coming so took Rama & Lakhmana at a young age itself as his shihyas. So, after Swayamvara, as a Guru of Sri Rama, he fixed the muhurtham for marriage of Sri Rama and Sita on Navami which is an inauspicious day like Ashtami. Why? so that they will lead a troublesome married life in forest and ultimately get separated. For these 2 reasons, Vishwamitra intentionally fixed their marriage on Navami for lokakalyan. I wanted to elicit this reasoning in A_Gupta in case he is not aware of this.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Dec 2011 17:38

Venkarl wrote:Thanks JohneeG for writing it so elaborately. Regarding Sri Rama's marriage, one of the many objectives and an important one of Sri Rama's janma is to relieve his "dwarapalakas" Jaya and Vijaya from the shraap of Durvasa.

Did you mean the 4 Sanat Kumaras by any chance?

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 13 Dec 2011 18:04

Narayana Rao wrote:The story of Ravana teaching rajaneethi to Lakshman is not based on Valmiki Ramayana. It is one of the stories doing rounds. Lakshmanji is the Prince of Surya Dynasty and student of Vashista. He is from the court where great ministers like Sumantha etc were there. Does he need any fresh eduction from Ravana? Further how ever great may be the knowledge and birth of Ravana, is he a fit person to teach " Rajaneethi" which he never followed. One more thing is the Ravana was killed instantly after being it by a divine arrow from Prabhu Sri Rama Chandra. Will he have time to teach things or talk in the first place ust like Telugu movie second wife/heroine after being shot in the forehead or being stabbed 122 times?

Ravana did not teach Rajniti to Laxman, he taught Kaal-Gyaan.