South India River Water Issues/Disputes

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 13 Dec 2011 04:03

http://www.hindu.com/2004/03/15/stories ... 870500.htm

This is quite dated from 2004 on the Aliyar-Parambikulam situation.

Per the agreement with Tamil Nadu, Kerala was supposed to receive 7.25 TMC feet of water per year from the Parambikulam Aliyar Project of which the Parambikulam Dam is a part. In 2004, Kerala did not receive any water after February 10, resulting in the drying up of paddy in thousands of acres in Chittur taluk.[3] Since this agreement has still not been met as of July 2006, Kerala Water Resources Minister has called for a review of the project agreement.[4]

from wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parambikulam_Dam

Added later.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/ker ... 527110.ece

Among the issues are Tamil Nadu's claim of 2.5 thousand million cubic feet (tmcft.) from the Anamalayar river and Kerala's demand for the release of Aliyar water at the Manacadu weir over and above its present share of 7.25 tmcft.

15-km tunnel

Tamil Nadu is also proposing to build a 15-km-long tunnel connecting Nirar with Nallar as an alternative to the 49.2-km-long Contour Canal. As of now, Kerala has not responded to this proposal, says a senior official.

Formally signed on May 29, 1970, the PAP agreement took effect from November 9, 1958, as it was then that an understanding was reached between the States.

The pact also includes agreements between the two States on July 4, 1960, and May 10, 1969. It provides for a review after 30 years. The present review has been going on since 1988.

The agreement provides for sharing of waters of rivers such as the Anamalayar, Nirar, Sholayar, Parambikulam and Aliyar and its tributary Palar [which has nothing to do with the Palar river, which runs through Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu] for generation of hydro-electric power, irrigation, drinking water supply and industrial use in the two States.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 13 Dec 2011 06:53

Water in Indian Constitution

The Constitution of India lays down the legislative and functional jurisdiction of the Union, State and local Governments regarding 'Water'. Under the scheme of the Constitution, 'Water' is basically a State subject and the Union comes in only in the case of inter- state river waters. List II of the Seventh Schedule, dealing with subjects regarding which states have jurisdiction, has the following as Entry 17 :

"Water, that is to say, water supplies, irrigation and canals, drainage and embankments, water storage and water power subject to the provisions of Entry 56 of List I Entry 56 of List I (Union list), reads as follows: "Regulation and development of inter- state rivers and river valleys to the extent to which such regulation and development under the control of the Union, is declared by Parliament by law to be expedient in the public interest".

The Constitution has a specific article (Article 262), dealing with adjudication of disputes relating to matters of inter- state rivers or river valleys, which reads as follows:

Article 262 (1): Parliament may by law provide for the adjudication on any dispute or complaint with respect to the use, distribution or control of the waters of, or in, any inter- state river or river valley.

(2) Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution, Parliament may by law provide that neither the Supreme Court nor any other Court shall exercise jurisdiction in respect of any such dispute or complaint as is referred to in clause (1).

The recent 1992 amendments to the Constitution regarding Panchayats and Municipalities introduced the following entries in the schedules listing the subject-areas in which the State Governments and legislatures may devolve functions to such bodies, so as to make them evolve as local self-governing institutions: In the Eighth Schedule (Part IX) dealing with Panchayats, the subjects, ''Minor irrigation, Water management and Watershed development", "drinking water" and "maintenance of community assets" are listed. In the Twelfth Schedule (Part IX A) dealing with municipalities, the subjects "water supply of domestic, industrial and commercial purposes" is listed. Functional responsibilities are, thus, visualised for local Governments in respect of several aspects of water use.

The two laws enacted by the Union under Article 262 and Entry 56 of List I are the Inter-State Water Disputes Act, 1956 (as amended up to 1980) and the River Boards Act, 1956. In recent years since the Constitution does not have an entry relating to 'Environment', using the residual powers, the Union has enacted laws on environment and control of pollution, which have effect on water use including ground water and its exploitation. A large number of Acts dealing with irrigation, canals and their maintenance, water rates and cess, command area development and maintenance of tanks are in force in each state. Some of the Acts are as old as the 1860s and 70s.

http://www.cwc.nic.in/main/webpages/statistics.html

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Dec 2011 19:18

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1205869

Yogi_G wrote:Take it for its worth but I feel the link below is in the same context of "fears" being propped up to undermine national interests and unity.

Mullaperiyar Dam and Sabarimala: The religious roots of the Controversy

Wow! Oh man what an assessment! I read it here before the current flareup started.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 13 Dec 2011 20:03

The real conspiracy is the organized and well funded attempts to set Hindu's and Christian's against each other. The only two religious groups that are fully integrated and even freely marry each other in India. The only two religious groups who will strongly participate on this board and are willing to openly defend India and each other to their last breath in all circumstances.

This has been going on for a long time by the true enemies of India. Question should be asked who benefits if these two groups fight.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 14 Dec 2011 09:00

Things took a nasty turn yesterday, as demands of merging the Idukki district with TN arose.

Two congress MPs raised the demand first. Then hundreds of people, mainly auto drivers and unionized labourers made a demonstration in Munnar.

Arguments were already in place that some places, mainly the plantation regions, in Idukki district is Tamil majority, and those regions were original Tamil land, because Pandyas used to rule there. I had taken those in the same class of 'misinformation' where the comparison with the kallanai belong. But when we have demonstrations on the street, things look different.

It is true that some areas of Idukki district has more Tamil speaking people than Malayalam speaking people. Those are primarily the labourers in the plantations, who are, in my view, floating population. It is no reason to re-draw the state borders.

Having one or two demonstrations is fine, but if it gets traction, we will have a bigg problem at hand.

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Dec 2011 09:16

It is true that some areas of Idukki district has more Tamil speaking people than Malayalam speaking people. Those are primarily the labourers in the plantations, who are, in my view, floating population. It is no reason to re-draw the state borders.

How convenient ! THIS is PAKINESS my friend yes .. Pee Yaa Kay Yee Yee Yen EE YESS YESS! . Can't win an election, well, gerrymander it. Cant face truths, well selectively read truths!

I spoke with a quite a few "laborers" and "locals" (folks hauling tea, working, climbing hills from the tenements in the valleys on the way to and from work while we were hiking) while at Munnar some 5 years ago. I was there for nearly a week. ALL of them spoke Tamil with me and my wife (my wife can Read Malayalam , I can make do with basic malayalam , understand it extremely well, thanks to my grandparents) and I asked them, "Entha Oor neega?" (where are you from), "Intha Ooru thaan!" (this place onree) .

True, not a very "scientific" sample study in any case.. but as a dipstick, it really opened my eyes.

I agree that there is no reason to re-draw the state borders . All the Tamil hill folks are classified as 'Malayali' now , that sort of Pakiness, I love absolutely and that is the way it should be..eg, Yum Gee Ramachandra Menon giving "Tamizhan" as his "caste" in the census and getting splashed in the papers

.. classic Tamil films. MGR 'eero , Nambiar Villan! FF 30 years, we have Shivaji Rao aka Rajinikanth as the Uber Proto Tamil (vanakkam!) and Amma from Mandya and then Telugu speakers (Vaiko and Super Tamil ..Dr Artiste), claiming the mantle of More Tamil Than Your's Turly ..ie (MoTTaY)

habal · Post by **habal** » 14 Dec 2011 10:33

>> True, not a very "scientific" sample study in any case..

that's true.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 14 Dec 2011 11:28

You didn't get it Vina, despite the organic enhanced analyzing power. Actually, I would say it is "POKness" shown by those demonstrators!!

Someone who claims "intha ooru thaan" is NOT a TN person. He is a Tamil speaking Keralite. He needs no allegiance to the state of TN. OTOH, someone who thinks his ooru is somewhere in TN (or ought to be in TN, for that matter) is "floating population", as his allegiance lies elsewhere.

Seriously, if any of the Tamil speaking people living in Idukki have any hardship because of the fact that they speak a minority language, shame on US. They have a right for redressal, and If the hardship is real bad, one can't really blame them for asking for separation.

But asking for separation because "the shameless Kerala is denying water to their brothers in TN" (not my words), is an entirely different thing. The Tamil speaking Idukki resident have NOTHING to do with the Tamil speaking Theni resident who march into Kumily demanding water. If at all, the Idukkki resident should support the agitation for a new dam, because his real brothers in Vandiperiyar will be the first ones to die.

I hope you would agree.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Dec 2011 12:24

Yes, they have been 'floating' for a 120 years now. Excluded from all welfare programs as Kerala government does not consider them as residents of their state. Alll because they are SDRE. What happens to the mallu speaking Tamilians I wonder.

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Dec 2011 12:32

Dileep wrote:Someone who claims "intha ooru thaan" is NOT a TN person. He is a Tamil speaking Keralite. He needs no allegiance to the state of TN. OTOH, someone who thinks his ooru is somewhere in TN (or ought to be in TN, for that matter) is "floating population", as his allegiance lies elsewhere.

You know as well as anyone here that when someone in S. India (Kerala, TN, Karanataka) etc speak of "ooru" or a Hindi/Urudu speaker talks of "Gaon" / "Mulk", you mean "Native Place" and the reason why I asked those folks that question was because I thought they were "migrant laborers" from TN , which is what the "floating population" would mean. But no, what they told me was that they were the Natives there!

As for allegiance to TN or Kerala, it hardly matters. Chennai and Trivandrum and Kochi could be in another planet for them and they couldn't give a damn and rightly so I think. His allegiance is to himself and his "ooru" /"gaon".

But asking for separation because "the shameless Kerala is denying water to their brothers in TN" (not my words), is an entirely different thing. The Tamil speaking Idukki resident have NOTHING to do with the Tamil speaking Theni resident who march into Kumily demanding water.

They are lot lot more in common with those theni /cumbum folks than with Kuttanad/Kochi/Kollam/Kottayam folks. Ethnicity, blood relations, language, commerce, economy etc.. etc.

IN fact, I would stick my neck out and say that the Idukki district Kerala Christian population of the estate/plantation types would be far more recent than the Tamil folks. Those Kollam/Kotayam folks started investing in the rubber plantations when it was absolute wilderness just around a 100 years or so ago (roughly the same time as the dam and before that no one gave a damn!) .

I would be extremely careful in characterizing the folks there as "floating population" or this or that and putting some random "allegiance" test to some random state boundary that came up within some 50 years.

If at all, the Idukkki resident should support the agitation for a new dam, because his real brothers in Vandiperiyar will be the first ones to die.
I hope you would agree.

Sorry. Beg to totally disagree.

What you are saying is that the Idukki resident should put his critical thinking faculties aside, suspend belief in the rule of the law, the fact that the matter is under consideration of the highest court of the land, there is a committee working on it, and get taken in by the absolute fear mongering and alarmist paranoia fanned by some random politicos and interested groups , including mild forms of hate mongering of Tamil Nadu and their kith and kin on the other side of the hills, and then start chanting "New Dam, New Dam, Damn it, New Dam" , and not make rational decisions, all for what, so that the land mafia can encroach and build more "jungle resorts" and "estates" and "plantations" like the folks from the plains have been doing on their lands for the past 100 years ? Maybe they see through the mechanizations of the Kerala Congress -Mani dude (isn't that traditionally a church supported front ?) and the counter mobilization of the Commies and the Congress-I , all looking to muddy the waters and to fish in those troubled waters.

Sorry. It is Kerala's politicos who took to the agit-prop route and made what should have been left to the sanitized, civilized and rational hallways of the court and technical committees to a mob psychosis based mobilization tool and a "hate" issue. They made that choice, so deal with it!

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 14 Dec 2011 15:17

Theo_Fidel wrote:Yes, they have been 'floating' for a 120 years now. Excluded from all welfare programs as Kerala government does not consider them as residents of their state. Alll because they are SDRE. What happens to the mallu speaking Tamilians I wonder.

Rhetoric!!

Kerala Govt uniformly and equally ignores everyone with a ration card, whether it is the Tamil speaking Idukki labourer, or the Mallu speaking midlands labourer, or the 'aadivaasi' speaking Wynad labourer. There is no difference.

Kearla Govt also uniformly and equally ignores every floating population member, whether it is a Tamil speaking one at Kumily, or an Odiya speaking one at DMA. There is no difference either.

This is just another propaganda, not unlike the recent news of Tamil women being held hostage at the plantations. We had been seeing a lot these days.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 14 Dec 2011 15:28

So, let us get this straight. You support the demonstration at Munnar for merging Idukki District with TN because:

1. There are more Tamil speakers than Mallu speakers in certain parts of Idukki.
2. The Tamil speaking community there is sidelined/ignored by GoK
3. They identify more with TN than Kerala

Hmm..... Where else did I see exactly the same arguments.... <thinking hard>

OR, more importantly, TN wants Mullaperiyar dam!!

That sure does make sense.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 14 Dec 2011 15:37

I have been on 'lurk' mode most of the time for a variety of reasons. So haven't been following up the discussion on this or most other threads. If this information has already been posted, I apologise. But there is a piece of historical information that might be of interest to the members of this forum if not already known.
At the time of reorganisation of States on linguistic basis a doubt arose about the status of Devikulam and Peermedu taluks in the present-day Kerala. The population was predominantly Tamil and hence by that logic, should have been allotted to Tamil Nadu. But the catch was that this would have led to recognistion of a principle of determining linguistic composition for reorganisation purposes, that would have atomised a larger region into smaller componenets such Taluks or even villages in contiguous blocks while drawing up the boundaries.
If Devikulam and Peermedu had to be given to TN then by that logic Nagercoil might have had to be given to Kerala. Kamaraj, the then CM of Tamil Nadu did not want that. With a large Nadar population and a political support base for him that drew upon the loyalty of Nadars, Kamaraj did not want that base to be eroded. In fact it was this support base that stood him in good stead even after he broke away from Mrs Indira Gandhi and chose to align with the syndicate group Congress (O). While the rest of the Tamil Nadu supported the ruling Congress head by Indira Gandhi, then in alliance with the DMK in 1971, Kanyakumari district was solidly behind Kamaraj and his parent organisation Congress (O).
His political short sightedness is now costing the nation in terms of fraying of fraternal feelings that long existed between Keralites and Tamils.
Regarding the controversy about the safety of the dam, a possible solution could be to substantially enhance the evacuation capacity of the pipeline carrying water to the Tamil nadu side so that the reduction in the height of the dam doesn't result in the irrigation and drinking water potential of the project getting reduced. This could be supplemented with a series of check dams on the plains so that more water can be stored in the artificial river bed which is what the irrigation channel on the TN side.
Whatever be the merits of the safety or otherwise of the dam it can not be denied that this is at the end of the day also about enhancing the electricity generation potential at Idukki hydro electric power project located downstream of Mullaiperiyar. The augmented potential is worth Rs 800 crores annually in fiscal resources to the State of Kerala as some back of the envelope calculations have shown. That is the sub text of the debate.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 14 Dec 2011 17:13

Nandakumar, there is also the issue of Geography.

The western ghats end in steep cliffs on the TN side, but have gradual slope on the KL side. This natural demarcation is what created the original boundaries between kingdoms. The starting of plantations, and bringing in of labour from TN is what caused human habitation in the region. Obviously, it was mainly Tamil speaking people who came to live there.

Nagarcoil region is flat terrain, where you can place the border as you please, but the hills, the geography itself had created a border. That is why the current demarcation, unless already established before state re-organization, is based on watershed in that region. If water flows westward, it is KL. If water flows eastward, it is TN.

Anyway, redrawing the state border is out if question, just like redrawing national borders. It is NOT a matter for debate.

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Dec 2011 17:32

His political short sightedness is now costing the nation in terms of fraying of fraternal feelings that long existed between Keralites and Tamils.
Regarding the controversy about the safety of the dam, a possible solution could be to substantially enhance the evacuation capacity of the pipeline carrying water to the Tamil nadu side so that the reduction in the height of the dam doesn't result in the irrigation and drinking water potential of the project getting reduced. This could be supplemented with a series of check dams on the plains so that more water can be stored in the artificial river bed which is what the irrigation channel on the TN side.

Great post Nandakumar. Just two points I'd like to make.

1) I am actually grateful for Kamaraj's "Short sightedness" as you call it. It goes to the idea of India. While the states were re constituted on a linguistic basis, longer term,given the mobility, growth and greater integration of India, those cannot be "water tight" , "language equivalent of Pakistan - Pure" states or territories. During states reorg, critical resource parts that were vital up by TN (ie Coorg, Nellore and the adjoining district, losing rights to Kaveri headlands and Krishna water and of course the two districts at the headlands of Periyar), against better counsel maybe on the idea of hope in rule of law, generosity and fairplay and the idea of India in general. It is on the basis of hope , trust and optimism about your fellow countryman , rather than rigid "strategic control" . I would rather go with the former any day. It makes us a better people. India and it's states is NOT like Pakiland and it's cleansing of other peoples. The borders and populations are mixed, sometimes crazily so and that is the way it has always been. That is what we were, we are and it become even more so going forward. All for the good only.

2) Yes. One more technical way of doing it , if the "real problem" is the safety of the dam! But unfortunately it doesn't seem to be the case.

The Pakiness on display is really about some vested interests currently trying to create a "wedge issue" a "hate object" and then try fishing in troubled waters for issues that could be simply criminal (like encroachments). This too shall pass and sanity will return. So get a popcorn and some beer and watch the political theater and melodrama.

manish · Post by **manish** » 14 Dec 2011 17:48

vina wrote:
His political short sightedness is now costing the nation in terms of fraying of fraternal feelings that long existed between Keralites and Tamils.
Regarding the controversy about the safety of the dam, a possible solution could be to substantially enhance the evacuation capacity of the pipeline carrying water to the Tamil nadu side so that the reduction in the height of the dam doesn't result in the irrigation and drinking water potential of the project getting reduced. This could be supplemented with a series of check dams on the plains so that more water can be stored in the artificial river bed which is what the irrigation channel on the TN side.
Great post Nandakumar. Just two points I'd like to make.

1) I am actually grateful for Kamaraj's "Short sightedness" as you call it. It goes to the idea of India. While the states were re constituted on a linguistic basis, longer term,given the mobility, growth and greater integration of India, those cannot be "water tight" , "language equivalent of Pakistan - Pure" states or territories. During states reorg, critical resource parts that were vital up by TN (ie Coorg, Nellore and the adjoining district, losing rights to Kaveri headlands and Krishna water and of course the two districts at the headlands of Periyar), against better counsel maybe on the idea of hope in rule of law, generosity and fairplay and the idea of India in general. It is on the basis of hope , trust and optimism about your fellow countryman , rather than rigid "strategic control" . I would rather go with the former any day. It makes us a better people. India and it's states is NOT like Pakiland and it's cleansing of other peoples. The borders and populations are mixed, sometimes crazily so and that is the way it has always been. That is what we were, we are and it become even more so going forward. All for the good only.

2) Yes. One more technical way of doing it , if the "real problem" is the safety of the dam! But unfortunately it doesn't seem to be the case.

The Pakiness on display is really about some vested interests currently trying to create a "wedge issue" a "hate object" and then try fishing in troubled waters for issues that could be simply criminal (like encroachments). This too shall pass and sanity will return. So get a popcorn and some beer and watch the political theater and melodrama.

Hate to wade into the already murky waters here, but vina saar saying that 'TN' gave up vital chunks of land sounds a bit one sided and is simply not fair on the other southern states/regions - there was no 'TN' prior to independence. Hence no question of 'TN' 'giving up' Nellore, Coorg etc if you ask me.

If the British had grouped most of South India into Madras Presidency (for whatever reasons), it doesn't mean that TN automatically becomes the successor state - it was just one of them - no special God given rights exist for TN over all those regions you mentioned. And when the states were carved out of it, it was done so on linguistics (officially of course) and political considerations or machinations of the players involved at the time - there is certainly no need to paint it differently and try to confer moral high ground on any one state or region in this.

The 'Idea of India' is shared equally by all the states of India (as you yourself said, if I am not wrong, in the latter half of your post) and all have had to do a bit of give and take at the beginning. Perhaps it could have been done differently, but we have to work with what we've got.

All IMVVHO of course. And most probably OT as well, so apologies to everyone on that.

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Dec 2011 17:54

Anyway, redrawing the state border is out if question, just like redrawing national borders. It is NOT a matter for debate.

Well,congratulations! Your politicos with their agit prop and over the top sloganeering and rhetoric with a subtext of hate speech have managed to make the redrawing of state borders a matter of debate again!

Classic case of shooting yourself in the foot.

And guess what, your politicos are going in delegation to the PM soon with the same old "NEW DAM, NEW DAM, DAMN IT, NEW DAM" thing , as if they don't know that the PM can do diddly squat when the matter is sub judice and the PM too will have to call on the same set of folks that the supreme court draws on , but whom Kerala already labeled as "compromised /sold out/whatever". All nice political drama, with photos and clips on Asianet and Malaya Manorama and all that and if the folks in Kerala can't see through that bit of charade, I think they are suckers for anything.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 14 Dec 2011 17:56

What?? TN didn't exist before 1956? Come on... That reminds me.. Oh Well!!

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 14 Dec 2011 18:00

vina wrote: Classic case of shooting yourself in the foot.

No. What our politicos are doing is not shooting themselves in the foot. A more apt analogy would be "selling one's mother, while pretending to take her to the hospital"

Thank god I learned Tamil!!

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Dec 2011 18:02

'TN' gave up vital chunks of land sounds a bit one sided and is simply not fair on the other southern states/regions - there was no 'TN' prior to independence. Hence no question of 'TN' 'giving up' Nellore, Coorg etc if you ask me

Manish, as Madras Presidency was the state from which large chunks were carved out and TN was the successor state , they held all the cards and could have insisted on control of those parts in terms of "strategic interests". Without that, they could have simply refused to let the division happen, atleast in those terms and in the erstwhile state, they had a big chunk of the strength of the Congress (compare the populations of the erstwhile Madras and the kingdoms (Hyd, Travancore, Mysore) that were involved .

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 14 Dec 2011 19:35

Theo_Fidel wrote:This has been going on for a long time by the true enemies of India. Question should be asked who benefits if these two groups fight.

Definitely not the Hindus in the short or long term. And definitely not India as now know it, or the India we read in the history.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Dec 2011 20:39

What TN wants is more control, quite obvious from vina's remarks. It is KL's job to show the middle finger.

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Dec 2011 20:52

Bade wrote:What TN wants is more control, quite obvious from vina's remarks. It is KL's job to show the middle finger.

.

Bade Mian, you've got it a$$ backwards. It is TN which HAS the control.. the dam, the court decision that says 136 ft and the possibility of the empowered committee okaying it to raise the level to 142ft.

Kerala WANTS control and some say in the matter and is doing so in a manner which is making TN give it the birdie! So all the KL politicos can do is these tamashas and melodrama and try to gain some control by trying to push for a new dam.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Dec 2011 20:55

Time will tell vina-mullah, the dam will break in 99 years and no more water for TN and Vaikol.

From arguments made here so far, I agree to offer J&K and its watershed areas to Pakistan based on 999+ year past water use, religious and ethnic demography and demands of the people of the region.

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Dec 2011 21:02

Bade wrote:Time will tell vina-mullah, the dam will break in 99 years and no more water for TN and Vaikol.

Indeed time will tell Bade Mian. And that is the reason why TN too has a vested interest in making the dam safe and secure and remove that threat of flooding down river for all time to come. So the "safety" and TN's interests are aligned and NOT divorced. There is no "agency" problem here. I simply dont understand why the KL folks don't get it and are taken in by the paranoia.

From arguments made here so far, I agree to offer J&K and its watershed areas to Pakistan based on 999+ year past water use, religious and ethnic demography and demands of the people of the region.

You already did, and not for 999 years, but in perpetuity in a treaty called the Indus Water Treaty where out of the 6 rivers, the 3 western most rivers were given to Pakistan!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 14 Dec 2011 21:05

Manish: Indeed it is murky waters, I guess tamilians have had the Southern land under one of the tamil kings Chera, Chozha and Pandya for thousands of years. Though they captured and lost territories north of the Venkatam Hills, they never considered those as the tamil territories - maybe because those lands were not held for more than one or two generations - directly or indirectly. Territories north of Venkatam Hills exchange hands, like the territories down that hill range. South India History is fascinating.

Looking at how all Phds and educated wallahs are talking here, what chance does an average Kuppan, Suppan, Soman, Jagan, Mohan ityadi have on this issue to treat it rationally.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Dec 2011 21:06

So the "safety" and TN's interests are aligned and NOT divorced.

Yes TN's interests are of course aligned to keep it all in ICU mode for 999 years.

I am glad you did not claim that hence, KL's interests are aligned too.

And about paranoia again, why are TN folks paranoid about water being denied. I am still to see any proof for this fear too. Why are you not addressing this bit of paranoia.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Dec 2011 22:12

Dileep wrote:Nagarcoil region is flat terrain, where you can place the border as you please, but the hills, the geography itself had created a border. That is why the current demarcation, unless already established before state re-organization, is based on watershed in that region. If water flows westward, it is KL. If water flows eastward, it is TN.

Anyway, redrawing the state border is out if question, just like redrawing national borders. It is NOT a matter for debate.

This is not correct. The state border does not follow watershed. It was considered but administration questions and convenience mattered a lot more than even language dynamics. Keralites will never admit it but the head waters of the Periyar originate in Tn. TN also administers a 2-5 km strip along the rim of the Cardmom hills much of which functions as the head waters of the Periyar. I have seen a report made in the 80's that shows that 8% of Mullaperiyar water and about 12% of entire periyar water originates in TN admistered land. Admittedly this is not a lot compared to the full water shed.

But the division most definitely is not what flows west is Kerala and what flows East is TN.

To continue, the Palar basin in particular was Tamil Majority but is administered by Kerala as the access road to large chunk of Munnar ran through there. Nedukandan for instance is Tamil speaking majority. The water continues to flow to TN and Kerala does not really challenge this right now. Bodi by contrast was Keralite majority but is administered by TN as the access to that area back then was from TN. Vina, is right that Keralite settlement of Idukki is very recent. Most of history it was settled by tribals who speak a proto-Tamil like dialect. At division of Kerala & TN, entire population of Idukki was under 1 Million! 80% + were Tamil plantation workers who had been there for 3-4 generations. Why was the land not fully settled. One word - Malaria. The long wet season made Malaria a devastating presence in the hills. It is only the presence of modern drugs that keeps the hills inhabitable.

Since then a lot more Tamil migration of the petty trades have occured and more is ongoing. Since TN is now wealthier a lot more land buying is going on esp. now that agriculture is simply collapsing in Kerala. With the opening of the mountain roads and good bus service it is far easier for these regions to interact with the Kumban valley, 2 hour drive, versus Kollam, 12 hours or so away.

Keralites are tired of living poor in the wet hills and are moving to the plains of TN for commerce, while TN folk are tired of the plains dry heat and moving into the hills for agriculture!

Maybe one could do a swap. Coimbatore Bodi and Mettu for Parts of Idukki, Palakkad and Munnar. And Hosur/Krishanagiri for Madikeri and Coorg w/ KN.
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BTW Nagercoil is/was majority Mallu speaking but definitely and always considered themselve Tamils. Esp. the community Kamaraj belonged too. Some sections of Marthandam area consider themselves Malayali.

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 15 Dec 2011 00:42

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Dileep wrote:
Maybe one could do a swap. Coimbatore Bodi and Mettu for Parts of Idukki, Palakkad and Munnar. And Hosur/Krishanagiri for Madikeri and Coorg w/ KN.
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BTW Nagercoil is/was majority Mallu speaking but definitely and always considered themselve Tamils. Esp. the community Kamaraj belonged too. Some sections of Marthandam area consider themselves Malayali.

What an idiotic statement .... Swapping Coimbatore for Parts of Idukki, Palakkad and Munnar... Palakkad is past Coimbatore and one wonders how the swap would happen... Moreover Malayaless make up less than 20% of Coimbatore...

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 15 Dec 2011 01:06

Land starved Kerala, can only agree to what was proposed earlier.

If all that the Tamil settlers in the valley below want is water, they will get all the water they want and have no fear of not having a drop to drink after the 999 lease term, if they join the state of Kerala and Keralites of all ethnicity and language can settle there at will. We speak Malayalam, Tamil, Konkani and English and maybe also Portuguese. Even Tamils can fit in well in Kerala as we do not consider ourselves as proto-whatever.

Coimbatore already had small riots targeting Keralites in the past.

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 15 Dec 2011 01:20

Bade wrote:Land starved Kerala, can only agree to what was proposed earlier.

If all that the Tamil settlers in the valley below want is water, they will get all the water they want and have no fear of not having a drop to drink after the 999 lease term, if they join the state of Kerala and Keralites of all ethnicity and language can settle there at will. We speak Malayalam, Tamil, Konkani and English and maybe also Portuguese. Even Tamils can fit in well in Kerala as we do not consider ourselves as proto-whatever.

Coimbatore already had small riots targeting Keralites in the past.

The riots in the past targetted the Mopllah Muslims of Kerala and not Keralites in General.... In the 90's they had business interests in Coimbatore and had funded some of the riots... It got worse after Madani was found guilty of the 1998 Bomb Blasts.. The current anger is mainly due to Keralites opening businesses and not hiring any locals

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 15 Dec 2011 01:23

East Palakkad district is mostly Tamil speaking. The entire Pallakkad district was once with TN before it was traded to Kerala. Know your history. Atleast before you use a term like idiotic so you don't come of looking like a fool.

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 15 Dec 2011 01:26

Theo_Fidel wrote:East Palakkad district is mostly Tamil speaking. The entire Pallakkad district was once with TN before it was traded to Kerala. Know your history.

I know my History...Coimbatore has always been Tamil land...I was not the one who is suggesting to swap Tamil land...So to get a portion of Palakkad you want to swap a city with majority of Tamils...Great logic i say

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 15 Dec 2011 01:28

Coimbatore is increasingly Keralite. Over 30% now. Demographics indicate it will be Keralite majority in about 15-20 years. Again know something before opening mouth.

Also there is nothing known as Tamil land. Esp. at the periphery.

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 15 Dec 2011 01:39

Sure...I hope your superiors don't read this logic... So just because it will majority in 120 years we have to give Coimbatore to Kerala...Going by the same logic why are you barking against the Kodankulam project defending some community on the coast...The area will be water anyways in 120 years....
Its people like you Tamils like me fear than the Malayalees from Kerala

Even if we swap Coimbatore for Eastern Palghat...Now you have a malayalee Coimbatore between a Tamil Palghat and a Tamil Pollachi/Tiruppur/Mettupalayam...

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 15 Dec 2011 02:10

Why do you bring Kudankulam here, stalker troll. pffft! Bye.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 15 Dec 2011 02:16

Bade wrote:Land starved Kerala, can only agree to what was proposed earlier.

If all that the Tamil settlers in the valley below want is water.....

Uh-Huh. This has to be trade.

Give something to get something. Hilly water soaked land, for flat dry livable land. One for one.

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 15 Dec 2011 02:25

Theo_Fidel wrote:Why do you bring Kudankulam here, stalker troll. pffft! Bye.

Sure No point in arguing over retarded suggestions that will never see light of the day ....

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 15 Dec 2011 02:25

Theo_Fidel wrote:Also there is nothing known as Tamil land. Esp. at the periphery.

Hmmm, what do you mean by that?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 15 Dec 2011 02:38

SwamyG wrote:Hmmm, what do you mean by that?

Tamil speaking is not same as Tamil nation. The Chola or the Pallava or for that matter the Pandya never considered themselves as representing a Tamil nation. Tamil people sure, literature absolutely, not Nation or State. No such thing existed.

Kongunadu for instance resisted being absorbed by the Chola's and Pandya's and carved out its own destiny. Even the Tamil spoken there is very different.