Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 17 Dec 2011 18:29

Some years before, between 2004 - 2007, a time frame around Brahmos induction, as i could recall, IN stated that they wanted/preferred to have 700 km missile. From the messg, the interpretation is that IN explored either they can have 700 km extended version of Brahmos or.... That is before we (ordinary junta) came to know about Nirbhay or Shourya. Shourya is an off shoot of Indian Navy's so called Sagarika program which is, in my view, mostly similar to an extended Brahmos. If they persisted with the requirement, the chances are that, they can have extended Brahmos or Shourya or some other supersonic/hypersonic missile. Nirbhay, though offers such high range, doesn't gives the edge these Brahmos type missiles offer. For such a lethal missile like Brahmos, 300 km is a small range. So don't be surprised, if there is some breaking news someday on another high profile missile in anti ship role. You have been given adequate warning!

If this comes true, may be we can have an equivalent of Oscar class SSGN.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Dec 2011 18:48

for defensive purposes to secure the IOR, land based mobile launchers and on some ships might be enough (amidships array going down 2 deck levels and rising up 1 deck level).

for yellow sea we need SSGN.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 17 Dec 2011 18:56

Tsarkar ji,

It is disheartening from Jingo angle to hear from you that Shourya can't do all the loops and weaves of Brahmos.

And I believe you are trying to say, by Thrust-Vectoring alone, it can't do that. There are many missiles with TVC i can quote but they also have tail fins. So to lift the spirits of jingoes i'm posting an excellent footage of THAAD, which has no fins at all but uses only thrust vectoring to do what can be called as mating dance after launch before it meets and mates with its partner in the sky, and that dance maneuver looks very much similar to that of modern air to air missile. So pls lift the hearts of us jingoes by giving your consent on whether at least in theory Shourya can do such maneuver.

This footage is from 'Future Weapons' which shows very clearly the kind of loops it can do by thrust vectoring alone. First stage is controlled only by thrust vectoring and for second stage kill vehicle it is through DACS.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 17 Dec 2011 19:03

Singha wrote:for defensive purposes to secure the IOR, land based mobile launchers and on some ships might be enough (amidships array going down 2 deck levels and rising up 1 deck level).

for yellow sea we need SSGN.

When missiles like K4 and it types take over the responsibility of sea based leg of deterrent, then Shourya class missile can be used for other imaginative purpose. Isn't Bharat Karnad mentioned 9 Arihant class subs?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Dec 2011 20:43

THAAD did those spiral and zig zag things right after launch when its speed is subsonic or at most mach1. it was not shown what it can do at terminal velocity.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Dec 2011 22:11

Will US approve THAAD sales to India ? Wouldn't do any harm to buy few dozen of THAAD batteries to deal with IRBM threats till we have our system in place and that would be some time.

Read THAAD could intercept IRBM with a max Range of 3,500 km out to an altitude of more than 150 km , that would put the entire Pakistan BM and many Chinese BM in its kill capability , its also very compact and mobile system

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Dec 2011 22:22

The key thing is multiple kill vehicles on a booster in order to raise the cost to the attacker.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 17 Dec 2011 22:24

Singha wrote:THAAD did those spiral and zig zag things right after launch when its speed is subsonic or at most mach1. it was not shown what it can do at terminal velocity.

So does the AAD....

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Dec 2011 22:48

ramana wrote:The key thing is multiple kill vehicles on a booster in order to raise the cost to the attacker.

Ramana , the MKV system was quietly cancelled by US since it was technologically termed too challenging

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Dec 2011 23:27

most likely went sub rosa.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Dec 2011 00:53

The zig-zag is due to a flex nozzle. India, it seems, is one of very nations that has that capability.

Supposedly this ability is useful in a missile too. It is used to bleed speed and spook defensive mechanisms that are designed to deal with rather predictable ballistic missiles.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Dec 2011 11:54

Update on MRSAM

MRSAM gains momentum; India, Israel developing 450 missiles & 18 firing units under the project

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2011 13:36

I still do not understand why the THAAD (or AAD) needs to do that spiral thing at launch - is it because the small fins cannot orient the missile sharply and they want to save the side thrusting jets for end game use - so they end up wildly yanking the control vanes around to finally point nose in desired angle ?

the south korean AAM just posted in another thread, brahmos and Aster seems to use side thrusters immediately.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Dec 2011 15:58

Singha wrote:I still do not understand why the THAAD (or AAD) needs to do that spiral thing at launch

Its a Energy Bleeding manouver so that the test is done within the required test range

vic · Post by **vic** » 18 Dec 2011 19:56

Kanson wrote:Some years before, between 2004 - 2007, a time frame around Brahmos induction, as i could recall, IN stated that they wanted/preferred to have 700 km missile. From the messg, the interpretation is that IN explored either they can have 700 km extended version of Brahmos or.... That is before we (ordinary junta) came to know about Nirbhay or Shourya. Shourya is an off shoot of Indian Navy's so called Sagarika program which is, in my view, mostly similar to an extended Brahmos. If they persisted with the requirement, the chances are that, they can have extended Brahmos or Shourya or some other supersonic/hypersonic missile. Nirbhay, though offers such high range, doesn't gives the edge these Brahmos type missiles offer. For such a lethal missile like Brahmos, 300 km is a small range. So don't be surprised, if there is some breaking news someday on another high profile missile in anti ship role. You have been given adequate warning!

If this comes true, may be we can have an equivalent of Oscar class SSGN.

I wonder if current Brahmos in hi-hi-hi deep dive attack mode may be 700km range??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2011 21:19

brahmos hi-hi-lo is 300km and lo-lo-lo is 120km per the spec sheet.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Dec 2011 23:09

Singha wrote:THAAD did those spiral and zig zag things right after launch when its speed is subsonic or at most mach1. it was not shown what it can do at terminal velocity.

That depends upon the altitude of engagement. THAAD is capable of engaging targets at altitudes as low as ~20km to ~150 km. Such a versatile missile. To release the kill vehicle in appropriate manner, depending upon the target and its engagement altitude, THAAD is designed to undergo energy bleeding maneuver as show in the youtube video before releasing the kill vehicle.

But as Austin mentioned, that mechanism came handy to reduce THAAD's range due to Testing site limitations, which is done by bleeding the energy at the initial stage of launch. (White Sands, If I remember) In real time scenarios this will happen before releasing the kill vehicle, if needed.

vic wrote:I wonder if current Brahmos in hi-hi-hi deep dive attack mode may be 700km range??

As Singha mentioned, there are only two ranges quoted, 290 and 120 as max range.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 19 Dec 2011 08:41

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 162364.cms

China-India-using-Agni-V-to-increase-clout-in-Asia

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Dec 2011 09:27

India strikes deal with Russia on Glonass

A day before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh arrived here last weekend for his annual summit with the Russian leadership, an Indian defence team of scientists and defence brass returned to Delhi after inking an agreement for receiving precision signals from Glonass, Russian constellation of satellites.

These signals will allow missiles, including those fired from nuclear submarine Chakra, to strike within half a metre of distant targets.

Glonass is an alternative to the U.S.-controlled Global Positioning System (GPS).

Indian military's access to Glonass has been considered important enough to find a mention in half-a-dozen joint statements issued after India-Russian annual summits.

As has been the case earlier, the issue lay in an indeterminate state for long time after Prime Minister Manmohan Singh discussed it with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev during their meeting in Delhi last year.

When bureaucracies from both sides began drawing up a status report on the progress in decisions taken last year, the Russian side found that no movement had taken place despite a Presidential Decree in this regard.

Menon's initiative

National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon took up the matter before this year's annual meeting between the two leaders and ensured that talks took place in earnest.

“The Russians, for a cost, have agreed to give us precision signals … we will be able to use weapons in a better manner,” said Indian official sources.

GPS used in Iraq war

The Indian security establishment had set its sights on Glonass after it conducted a post-mortem of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. It found that the U.S. had blocked GPS signals to Iraq and then inserted erroneous signals that left Saddam's generals virtually blind as far as beyond visual range and sighting and targeting was concerned.

“We found that the Iraqi Army got misled and weapons went awry,” said the sources.

The issue of ensuring autonomy and choice in strategic communications found expression in the former Army Chief and Director-General of Military Intelligence, General S. Padmanabhan's post-retirement book The writing on the wall – India Checkmates America 2017 .

The General foresaw a situation, which has also been a subject of drawing board war games, in which the U.S. attacked India over Kashmir. Such a scenario is plausible, he said, because of the “propensity of the U.S.A to add {sic, act ?} unilaterally against other countries in disregard of the United Nations.” He advocated need for India to be prepared to meet “aggression by any developed country, including the USA.”

Glonass is still in the making and a pact on the civilian side is still to be arrived at. But India's quest for strategic autonomy in advanced technology would be served with the pact on precision signals from Glonass, said the sources.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 19 Dec 2011 09:29

BVR Astra missile warming up for aircraft release in 2013; re-engineered weapon to undergo more captive flight trails in 2012

nash · Post by **nash** » 19 Dec 2011 09:39

thats what i thought by the time Astra ready to release from Aircraft, Tejas will be mature enough to handle it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Dec 2011 09:56

the glonass constellation is now complete. it is no longer in the making iirc. the last couple sats were launched in autumn this year.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Dec 2011 10:44

I think the 'civilian side' that Glonass article talks about is the agreement to launch replacement satellites in a few years' time, perhaps. There was also a talk of India fabricating these satellites, but there has been no further reports on that.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Dec 2011 10:54

Even during Kargil , US did shut off of GPS in those areas is what I read.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Dec 2011 11:10

So they have settled for Agat seeker for Astra ....I guess the MBDA was not too keen us to give their seeker technology ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Dec 2011 11:12

pandyan wrote:That will be the case with any country. Even if one owns the constellation of GPS satellite, signal is not guaranteed. Having redundant systems like MINGS is the way to go.

There is a difference in not being available for technical reasons and shutting it off deliberately to deny those signals , US did that deliberately to deny the use of GPS to us ...and its not the last time they even did that during Georgia war with russia where deliberate misleading signals were fed far away from known co-ordinates.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Dec 2011 11:36

pandyan wrote:
Austin wrote:Even during Kargil , US did shut off of GPS in those areas is what I read.
That will be the case with any country. Even if one owns the constellation of GPS satellite, signal is not guaranteed. Having redundant systems like MINGS is the way to go.

It may be in case of every country, MINGS can be used for Ballistic missiles but there are many applications which need GPS- any desi equivalents of JDAM etc..

Regarding GPS, from What I remember during operation Safedsagar, Mig-21's were droping dumb bombs based on hand held GPS receivers, so not sure if it was the civilian version.

But there is no need to jusitify US perifidy against India. Just US demands every nation to support it, we must demand the same....

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Dec 2011 11:54

It would seem Astra Mk.1 is equivalent to Mica IR/RF and Astra Mk.2 is equivalent to Meteor/AMRAAM. Apart from the LCA, the IAF wants to integrate Astra to the Russian-origin aircrafts--MKI and MiG-29. This could mean Russian AAMs--R-27, R-73, R-77--are going away once Astra Mk.1 and Mk.2 are inducted.

BVR Astra missile warming up for aircraft release in 2013; re-engineered weapon to undergo more captive flight trails in 2012

...
The Rs 955-crore project was sanctioned in 2004 to develop two versions (Mk-1: 50 km & Mk-II: 100 km) for the Indian Air Force (IAF).
...
"During the captive trials the total structural integrity of the missile and the launcher (modified one used by R-73 missile) on Sukhoi has been tested. Vibrations, shock and strains on the missile and the launcher at all altitudes and Mach numbers (-1 to 9 'g') were tested. As we are proving the missile, the platform is also getting proven and readied. The missile will be first integrated on Sukhoi, then Tejas and finally on to the MiG-29," sources said.
DRDO hopes to have the production versions of Astra Mkl-I & II on the three different fighters by 2016. "We have got two Su-30MKI aircraft from the IAF which has come with all modifications. Integration of the aircraft avionics with the missile on-board equipment are being carried out using the Sukhoi test rig at IAF's Software Development Institute in Bangalore. This will further undergo rigorous checks during the captive flight trials planned in mid-2012 for qualifying the electronic integrity in flight using a metric missile," sources said.
...

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 19 Dec 2011 12:13

Once Astra development completes successfully, it alter the landscape of missile development completely as Prithvi & Brahmos did initially.

Aditya_V wrote:It may be in case of every country, MINGS can be used for Ballistic missiles but there are many applications which need GPS- any desi equivalents of JDAM etc..

Regarding GPS, from What I remember during operation Safedsagar, Mig-21's were droping dumb bombs based on hand held GPS receivers, so not sure if it was the civilian version.

But there is no need to jusitify US perifidy against India. Just US demands every nation to support it, we must demand the same....

Every major western powers (including US) are designing systems which can operate independent of GPS. That is in scenario where GPS can be cut off. Future directions in US is such that, long range missile should operate independent of GPS if necessary, contrast to currently operating or entering into service missile(like JASSM/-ER) who primary guidance is one way or other dependent on GPS.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 19 Dec 2011 12:18

Singha wrote:the south korean AAM just posted in another thread, brahmos and Aster seems to use side thrusters immediately.

That is typical of Russian design to use forebody thrusters to tip the missile in the direction of target immediately after launch. S 300 missiles, Tor-M and then our Brahmos.

Aster, does is uses side thrusters during launch phase?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Dec 2011 12:33

what! agat seeker from Russians? that was already given to chippanda (pl-12) by the russkies or this is different? mmmm.. if so, then we have to work towards home grown tech soon, and not permanently dependent on russkie techs, that is shared with enemy - easy weakest link, for jamming.

but these are nice to hear:

Astra project is a tech-treat considering the miniaturization of the systems, including on-board computer, data links for transmitter/receiver and rotary electro-mechanical actuators. A smokeless, non-metallized high-specific impulse propellant was developed for the rocket motor.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 19 Dec 2011 12:56

US restarting TASM-like capability could be an indication that it no longer believes that it can enforce air superiority over enemy waters. Is it due to problems with F-35? Something to ponder, i guess.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Dec 2011 12:57

SaiK wrote:what! agat seeker from Russians? that was already given to chippanda (pl-12) by the russkies or this is different? mmmm.. if so, then we have to work towards home grown tech soon, and not permanently dependent on russkie techs, that is shared with enemy - easy weakest link, for jamming.

but these are nice to hear:
Astra project is a tech-treat considering the miniaturization of the systems, including on-board computer, data links for transmitter/receiver and rotary electro-mechanical actuators. A smokeless, non-metallized high-specific impulse propellant was developed for the rocket motor.

Looks the NAG related MMR and IIR seeker tech would be base on which we can build such seeker techs.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Dec 2011 14:59

Kanson ji, THAAD uses flex nozzle while AAD uses thrust diverter vanes. Agni series has flex nozzles. I dont know what Shourya uses, but internet pictures show fixed fins (no circles to denote actuators).

From my understanding, TVC offer better instaneous manoeuvering while control surfaces offer more energy efficient sustained manoeuvering.

A Brahmos doing a large S can do a horizon double radar sweep. For an ASBM doing that in horizontal or vertical plane is enormously energy consuming. Also because of high speed, the time may not be sufficient for the seeker to effectively process.

No disrespect to Shourya, but generally ASBM concept has its challenges. If an ASBM does energy dissipating manoeuvers to position itself right, then it makes itself vulnerable to enemy defenses.

nash · Post by **nash** » 19 Dec 2011 15:06

After IIR and MMR seeker , next in line for DRDO would be AR seeker for missile like ASTRA and other long range A2A missile.

We can use IIR probably for our version of Archer-am(R-73)....

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Dec 2011 18:44

If ASTRA is going to first tested with ground firings for a year before it is testes in an Air-to-Air mode,then it would be worthwhile for the IA and IN to make use of the tests for their own future versions of SAMs ,derived from the same missile.Such an approach could save upto one year too in flight tests if all 3 services were aboard during the ground testing phase.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Dec 2011 20:44

what worries me is these type of statements:

The missile will use 'Agat' seeker from Russia which will be produced in India through a total transfer-of-technology process.

1. We all know about Russian total ToTs (ttots).
2. For 100s of missiles, our indigenous tech will not shape up.
3. By the time, it clears all types of clearance, another 500s would have been added.
4. When we ready it for first production batch, IAF has moved on to a different set of missiles.

I am missing something in the requirements big time here.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 19 Dec 2011 20:45

tsarkar wrote:Kanson ji, THAAD uses flex nozzle while AAD uses thrust diverter vanes. Agni series has flex nozzles. I dont know what Shourya uses, but internet pictures show fixed fins (no circles to denote actuators).

From my understanding, TVC offer better instaneous manoeuvering while control surfaces offer more energy efficient sustained manoeuvering.

A Brahmos doing a large S can do a horizon double radar sweep. For an ASBM doing that in horizontal or vertical plane is enormously energy consuming. Also because of high speed, the time may not be sufficient for the seeker to effectively process.

No disrespect to Shourya, but generally ASBM concept has its challenges. If an ASBM does energy dissipating manoeuvers to position itself right, then it makes itself vulnerable to enemy defenses.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. TVC and Control surfaces compliments each other nicely as you put it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Dec 2011 20:47

Russia will obviously not TOT their best seeker to Astra. they would like to keep it themselves for the successor missile to r77 which is called r77-pd I think. neither would france TOT their best.

we will have to absorb technologies for now, copy and re-engineer whatever we can and try to come up with a domestic seeker at some point. the demands of a radar/IIR seeker for a 45G long range AAM are probably a lot higher than a 4km Nag ATGM, so I would not expect immediate breakthroughs.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Dec 2011 21:06

With fiber optical RLGs and nano technology and nano pulse micro chip computing power in a box from (NECC, hyderabad), I am optimistic that we get that.. and I sincerely hope the russians gave us crappy technology for IAF to accept that as is. Just throwing out some constructive negativism.