China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 20 Dec 2011 08:18

Facts and arguments regarding China’s military

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 20 Dec 2011 09:02

There is a thinking that is increasingly getting traction among people in Singapore and Taiwan (two predominantly ethnic Chinese strongholds that are suspicious of communist China) which says that the Communist Party of China will do all they can to avoid a major military conflict with India. The logic behind this is that they fear the Communists may not survive the conflict. A leading retired SEA general told me that they would bark and throw threats and push the envelop as far as possible without allowing it to turn into a war.
Avram Sprinzl

vina · Post by **vina** » 20 Dec 2011 10:02

which says that the Communist Party of China will do all they can to avoid a major military conflict with India.

Avram, it is like Iran fighting against Isreal currently. What they will do is use their Proxy Whore next door, ie reuse the already used and discarded condom aka, "Pakistan" , the "Condom Nation" to fight India indirectly, just the same way Iran is using the Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Don · Post by **Don** » 21 Dec 2011 21:47

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Dec 2011 00:24

There is a thinking that is increasingly getting traction among people in Singapore and Taiwan (two predominantly ethnic Chinese strongholds that are suspicious of communist China) which says that the Communist Party of China will do all they can to avoid a major military conflict with India.

Thank you, I have posted my own assessment to the same conclusion. India's system of government is resilient enough to survive a major challenge to territorial integrity-of course the government of the day will fall.

But the CCCP dare not get into a shooting match where the outcome can be nuanced.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 22 Dec 2011 07:52

Finland 'finds Patriot missiles' on China-bound ship

The Thor Liberty docked in Kotka, Finland, 21 December The Thor Liberty is docked in Kotka

The Finnish authorities have impounded an Isle of Man-flagged ship bound for China with undeclared missiles and explosives, officials say.

Police are questioning the crew of the MS Thor Liberty after what were described as 69 Patriot anti-missile missiles were found aboard.

Interior Minister Paivi Rasanen said the missiles were marked "fireworks".

The MS Thor Liberty had docked in the Finnish port of Kotka after leaving Germany last week.

Dock workers became suspicious after finding explosives poorly stored on open pallets, and the missiles were then found in containers marked "fireworks".

The managing director of the ship's owner, Thorco Shipping, expressed surprise. Thomas Mikkelsen told AFP news agency from Denmark that he was unaware of the matter.

Another company official, speaking on condition of anonymity, confirmed the ship had been detained in Finland and said the missiles could have been loaded on to the vessel by mistake, AFP adds.

Police did not confirm Finnish media reports that the ship had also been scheduled to stop in South Korea, Reuters news agency reports.
'Quite unusual'

The MS Thor Liberty left port in Emden, northern Germany, on 13 December and docked two days later in Kotka, southern Finland, to pick up a cargo of anchor chains, said Finnish Customs spokesman Petri Lounatmaa.
A Patriot missile launcher deployed at Tatoi air base, near Athens, Greece (archive image) Patriot missile systems are supplied to US allies

It was bound for the Chinese port of Shanghai but there was no indication for whom the military cargo was destined.

Routine checks by Finland's traffic safety authority revealed a load of up to 160 tonnes of improperly packed nitroguanidine, a low-sensitivity explosive with a high detonation speed.

"Actually in our investigation at the moment, we have got the information that we found 69 Patriot missiles on the ship and around 160 tonnes of explosives," said Detective Superintendent Timo Virtanen from the Finnish National Bureau of Investigation.

Interior Minister Rasanen said she had not heard of a similar case.

"Of course, there are legal transports of weapons or defence material [through Finland] but in this case the cargo was marked as containing fireworks," she told Finnish media. "That is quite unusual."
BBC map

Mr Lounatmaa said customs officials and police had launched a joint investigation into a possible breach of Finnish export and weapons trading laws.

He said that the crew of about 32 were being questioned.

Patriot missiles, designed by the US company Raytheon, are supplied to "US and allied forces", according to the company's website. South Korea is among states which deploy them.

Is it China getting hands on US missile defence Shield ?
Or is US supplying these missiles to SK off-record ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2011 08:43

69 missiles is a lot. netherland, germany, greece, poland, spain are the european operators. major bigtime fraud if one of these militaries lost track of 69 units.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 22 Dec 2011 09:55

Looks like China is trying to get it's hands on the Patriot missiles to copy it or to sell them to our western neighbors .

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2011 10:17

which kind of indicates their myriad domestic SAM programs are not all that great despite the blurry photos and 'leaked' news. it could be a genuine mistake because industrial espionage would like to steal 1 or 2 quietly rather than 69!

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 22 Dec 2011 10:25

69 missiles is a lot...and i wonder how come US didnt known about it..

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 22 Dec 2011 10:46

69 is a big number. i dont believe china would steal this much numbers for reverse engineering. looks like some plot is there behind all this. else how can be one so much careless to leave it open?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 22 Dec 2011 10:53

hmm.... we should not think in terms of "khan can do no wrong"

(they have fitted out a pretty shiny ball-turret to a paki C-130)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2011 11:26

yeah but secretly kitting up TSP with pac3 is only likely to get one of their A10 or AH64 shot down

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 22 Dec 2011 12:07

no, not in that way for this instance. I meant for EULA and accounting situations - khan believe EULA is worth more than TeePee in countries where Marine boys with steely eyes cant be stationed. The Safire ball was to show how one arm of khan (pancha-cone buiidling walahs) doesnt seem to always provide effective inputs to what other side (MBA sales dudes + Hill lobbyists) are doing.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 22 Dec 2011 12:08

It can be a loading mistake as well – the people receiving patriots getting fireworks. 69 is too big a number to steal and if it indeed was meant to be stolen, how difficult would it have been to trace the smugglers considering the shipping company is not chinese?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Dec 2011 12:10

Slowly,slowly,catchee monkey...!

Beijing tries to smuggle in Patriots,declared as "fireworks"!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 80392.html

British-registered ship caught taking arms to China
Vessel impounded after 160 tonnes of explosives and 69 missiles were discovered on board

A British-flagged cargo ship has been impounded by Finnish authorities after 160 tonnes of explosives and 69 surface-to-air missiles were found on board.

The Thor Liberty was on its way to Shanghai, China, after setting sail from the German port of Emden on 13 December. The British-registered ship, owned by a Danish firm, Thorco, docked two days later in Kotka, Finland, to pick up a cargo of anchor chains.

The missiles, produced by the US firm Raytheon, were discovered after a search of the vessel by customs officials. Petri Lounatmaa, a Finnish customs spokesman, said investigators did not yet know the origin of the Patriot missiles or who was supposed to receive them.

"We have impounded the explosives and missiles and asked the Defence Ministry to transport and store them," Mr Lounatmaa said.

"At this stage we don't know where it [the cargo] was loaded on the ship or if the Thor Liberty planned a drop before its port of destination in China." Mr Lounatmaa said customs officials and police have launched a joint investigation into a possible breach of Finnish export and weapons-trading laws. "We have started questioning the crew," Mr Lounatmaa said. "As the investigation continues decisions will be made about possible arrests."

Mr Lounatmaa said that there were about 32 crew members on board the vessel and that questioning them could continue well into Friday. Detective Superintendent Timo Virtanen, of the National Bureau of Investigation, said dock workers found the explosives – picric acid – stored on open pallets instead of in closed containers. They alerted inspectors, who found the missiles in containers with markings that indicated they were holding fireworks.

The Finnish Interior Minister Paivi Rasanen said she had not heard of a similar case. "Of course, there are legal transports of weapons or defence material [through Finland], but in this case the cargo was marked as containing fireworks," she told Finland's YLE TV.

PS:So now we know how the great PR of C "develops" its arms industry,if one didn't know already.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 22 Dec 2011 12:11

bingo. But happy loading mistakes is what makes the "unofficial Bear air-cargo industry" tick

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 22 Dec 2011 12:15

Hmm. So this further confirms the reason why their arms are shown only at defense shows in mainland with one or two appearing popping up in pakiland but nowhere else.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2011 12:19

each missile will have a serial number - Khan will be coming down hard on whoever let this happen (if it was not some khan iran-contra type black op gone wrong with the local cops)

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 22 Dec 2011 12:32

Could be replaced patriots... fazed out ones sold by an arms dealer. Arms dealers do not sell off their goods in installments. General rule is all or nothing because they cannot risk marketing to multiple parties.

Also technically China was correct... they were fireworks...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Dec 2011 12:41

Could this be a private Khan shippment to Placate TSP Army. We should be worried.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 22 Dec 2011 13:07

khan will just hand it over to the pigs..he need not hide them like these

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2011 13:08

I too have the same suspicion it was a black op gone wrong when someone in local cops opened the wrong door. question is TSP or where? which munna regime out there needs pac3 missiles unofficially?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 22 Dec 2011 13:13

Let us see how khan responds....they didnt accidentally found them out...they got tipped off...and no one will hide those missiles under the fireworks label...sounds too stupid

sum · Post by **sum** » 22 Dec 2011 13:34

Singha wrote:I too have the same suspicion it was a black op gone wrong when someone in local cops opened the wrong door. question is TSP or where? which munna regime out there needs pac3 missiles unofficially?

Eerily similar to the Chittagong arms seizure where a couple of un-informed cops opened the containers of arms despite other folks in the security establishment looking away ( since all the others had been briefed to look away)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Dec 2011 13:45

Are these patriot missile are actual working one with radars etc or just components of patriots which are perhaps EOL and being disposed off , just the missile wont do any good if it does not include the MFCR and C&C systems.

Could perhaps be destined to Taiwan they are major user of Patriot system.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 22 Dec 2011 14:57

a recent video release of the J-20

http://t.co/pP1bev0K

This one is a full-HD

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2011 15:19

Hiten wrote:a recent video release of the J-20

http://t.co/pP1bev0K

This one is a full-HD

Nice.

But why does the dorsal brake chute door remain open throughout?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Dec 2011 15:35

Hiten wrote:a recent video release of the J-20

http://t.co/pP1bev0K

This one is a full-HD

The way the 2 nozzle are close to each other , I doubt they would opt for full 3D TVC ..more likely 2D TVC like MKI.

I some how get the impression that J-20 is like 35 - 40 T class MTOW Fighter-Bomber.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2011 20:33

Austin wrote:
Hiten wrote:a recent video release of the J-20

http://t.co/pP1bev0K

This one is a full-HD
The way the 2 nozzle are close to each other , I doubt they would opt for full 3D TVC ..more likely 2D TVC like MKI.

I some how get the impression that J-20 is like 35 - 40 T class MTOW Fighter-Bomber.

Austin, don't you think that with all those control surfaces, TVC would be redundant? The only situation in which I see TVC as being relevant for an aircraft with so many control surfaces is at near stall speeds where the lift surfaces are useless - to "tilt" the aircraft nose down. But such a huge aircraft and nimble handling don't go well together because of the enormous inertia.

I agree that this is an attack aircraft type of design philosophy.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Dec 2011 22:53

shiv wrote:Austin, don't you think that with all those control surfaces, TVC would be redundant? The only situation in which I see TVC as being relevant for an aircraft with so many control surfaces is at near stall speeds where the lift surfaces are useless - to "tilt" the aircraft nose down. But such a huge aircraft and nimble handling don't go well together because of the enormous inertia.

The way i see it , TVC always aids in improving over what control surfaces can afford be it supersonic or subsonic flight regime and they work in tandem some times aiding sometimes working where control surface is not effective , there are many aspect of TVC that are not as well documented , I will post an interview with F-22 pilot that clarifies some aspect of TVC , the whole interview is interesting and its more F-22 speciic but what works for F-22 specially with regards to TVC should equally work well of other fighters that use or have such capability along with multiple conventional control surfaces.

http://www.ausairpower.net/API-Metz-Interview.html

Thrust-vectoring is often thought of in terms of the classic 'dogfight' where one aircraft is trying to out-turn his opponent at ever decreasing airspeeds. Whether a pilot should ever engage in these slow speed fights is a matter that is hotly debated within the fighter pilot community. Certainly, there is general agreement that it is best to not get slow - ever. With the advent of the helmet mounted sight, 4th generation heat seeking, off-boresight missiles the slow dogfight becomes even more dangerous. 'To slow or not to slow' are questions of tactics and best left to the expert fighter pilots of the future. The F-22's thrust-vectoring can provide remarkable nose pointing agility should the fighter pilot choose to use it. What is not widely known is that thrust-vectoring plays a big role in high speed, supersonic maneuvering. All aircraft experience a loss of control effectiveness at supersonic speeds. To generate the same maneuver supersonically as subsonically, the controls must be deflected further. This, in turn, results in a big increase in supersonic trim drag and a subsequent loss in acceleration and turn performance. The F-22 offsets this trim drag, not with the horizontal tails, which is the classic approach, but with the thrust vectoring. With a negligible change in forward thrust, the F-22 continues to have relatively low drag at supersonic maneuvering speed. . But drag is only part of the advantage gained from thrust vectoring. By using the thrust vector for pitch control during maneuvers the horizontal tails are free to be used to roll the airplane during the slow speed fight. This significantly increases roll performance and, in turn, point-and-shoot capability. This is one of the areas that really jumps out to us when we fly with the F-16 and F-15. The turn capability of the F-22 at high altitudes and high speeds is markedly superior to these older generation aircraft. I would hate to face a Raptor in a dogfight under these conditions.

Don · Post by **Don** » 22 Dec 2011 23:30

http://news.yahoo.com/germany-impounded ... 41591.html

Germany: Impounded Patriot missiles were legit

By MATTI HUUHTANEN | AP – 1 hr 27 mins ago....Email

(AP) — A shipment of 69 surface-to-air missiles impounded by Finnish authorities was a legitimate delivery from Germany to South Korea, a German official said Thursday.

The announcement came after Finnish authorities seized the Patriot missiles and 160 tons of explosives on a British-registered cargo ship and detained two Ukrainian crew members on suspicion of violating weapons export laws.

Police said the missiles didn't have the right transit documents and the explosive picric acid wasn't properly stored on the M/S Thor Liberty, which docked in Kotka, southern Finland, on Dec. 15.

A spokesman for Germany's Defense Ministry said the missiles were an official shipment that was fully declared and had all necessary clearings from German authorities.

"Those patriot guided missiles are from the Bundeswehr's stocks and have been shipped to South Korea" according to an intergovernmental treaty, he said, declining to be named in line with government policy.

He said no explosives were part of the shipment and he didn't have any information on that part of the impounded cargo.

Finnish officials said the explosives were destined for China. Markku Koskinen, the director of traffic operations at the port of Kotka, said they were deficiently packed in wooden boxes on open pallets and would be moved to metal containers in line with rules on the maritime transport of explosives.

"We will do that as soon as the customs inspectors allow us to," Koskinen told The Associated Press. "Otherwise, the shipment of explosives was legitimate and can continue on its way to China as soon as it's safely packed."

The ship sailed from the north German port of Emden on Dec. 13 and was en route to China, Finnish officials said. It docked in Kotka to pick up a cargo of anchor chains and an old paper machine.

Finnish officials impounded the cargo Wednesday and launched an investigation. Detective Superintendent Timo Virtanen said the ship's captain and first mate were detained.

"The missiles did not have the appropriate transit papers," Virtanen said. "We are questioning all the other 11 crew members who are also Ukrainians."

Klaus Kaartinen, spokesman for the National Bureau of Investigation, said Finnish police and customs would continue their investigation into the cargo.

"Even if the missile cargo is a legitimate shipment, from a Finnish point of view the law has probably been broken because it was not properly declared," Kaartinen said. "Also, the explosives were stored improperly."

American-made Patriot missiles are used to counter threats, including aircraft, tactical ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. They are part of the U.S. Army's weaponry and were extensively used during the 1991 Gulf war.

Manufactured by Raytheon and Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control in Florida, Patriot missiles have been in service in several countries, including Egypt, Germany, Greece, Israel, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan and South Korea.

member_20021 · Post by **member_20021** » 23 Dec 2011 04:16

It is good that the ship was intercepted by the Finnish. Just imagine if the missiles were discovered at the Shanghai port, what the losers would have had to say.

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 23 Dec 2011 05:44

"We will do that as soon as the customs inspectors allow us to," Koskinen told The Associated Press. "Otherwise, the shipment of explosives was legitimate and can continue on its way to China as soon as it's safely packed."

wait a minute on its way to china before reaching its final destination what the* are they planning to drop 1 or 2 in pandas hands so that they can reverse engineer and sell them to their whores pukis and north Koreans

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 23 Dec 2011 06:46

Reads like total BS for cover-up. Ship high end missiles like industrial pipes via commercial ships, undeclared going country to country including China. haha

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 23 Dec 2011 07:34

if it was legit ..why label it fireworks...where they going to use them for new year fireworks show?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Dec 2011 09:39

I find it interesting that the Chinese troll Chicom representative posted to BRF stated in that this fireworks shipment was bound for S. Korea even before the news media announced it? I saw the post yesterday and today its official.

Odd innit?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Dec 2011 10:11

Looks like dear old leader death has made S.Korea nervous and hence emergency shipments of patriots. This was to be done without public declaration and the said ship with make a stopover at a South Korean port on its way to Shanghai.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 23 Dec 2011 10:52

Cost of military operations is much higher than the cost of military procurement. This is why accounting is moving towards life cycle costs. With fuel prices hitting the roof, things are going worse. I remember in the 90's, deploying Viraat + 1 destroyer + 2 frigates + 1 minesweeper at sea cost Rs 1 crore per day. Hence the usage of commercial shipping for cost reduction. Challenge would be if pirates or non state actors ended up looting such shipments.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Dec 2011 13:13

Some frienly seasonal advice to us from the most superior "People's Republic" of the world!

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/102774/7680066.html

Risks behind India's military buildupBy Zi Mo (People's Daily Overseas Edition)
December 18, 2011 Edited and translated by People's Daily Online

India has decided to focus on building defense in this period. In the recently adopted 11th Five-Year Plan, it decided to spend 8.2 billion U.S. dollars purchasing equipment from foreign countries to improve its fighting capabilities.

The Sweden Stockholm International Peace Research Institute said in a recent report that India has become the world's largest arms importer, a veritable arsenal made up of imports from many different countries.

A retired Indian Air Force general said India's rising international status required it to develop a long-range attack capability that some big countries own.

In-service officers insist that India's weapons will not pose threat to any country in the region as it exercises a policy of never attacking first.

Indian officials and scientists claimed that their Agni-V missile is the "killer" for a certain country, which obviously shows the intention of seeking regional balance of power.

India has strategic ambitions and hopes to play an important role in world affairs, so it cannot tolerate these internal and external security environment constraints. It is the Indian goal to continue to strengthen the military and possess a military clout that matches its status as a major power.

However, how many missiles is enough is a question for all governments in the missile era.

India felt pleased by America’s strategic focus shift toward the Asia-Pacific region and began to get close to America, but thinking this move will contain its imaginary enemy would be naive.

In the context of the eastward shift of global economic power and the changing Asian geopolitical pattern, India should cooperate with the neighboring countries instead of being hostile to them and should reduce its own “persecution mania" to play a role on the world stage in the future.

There is no real winner in wars and peace opportunities must not be wasted. This is the wise judgment.

Q for Hu-Hee: Whu flung (ding-dong) dung first?

Gleat People's Lepub-lick of China or India?