Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 2011

[Sanku]

If we keep hitting Pakistan is visible ways that it is forced into launching a war out of frustration (if they could remotely think they can launch a war from position of strength they would have already) -- we win anyway

Sanku its too late in history for that.

In 1947 ....

Pakistan's alliance with the US is on the premise that india will always attack first. By attacking Pakistan, India makes that prediction come true, leading to a reputation that India is an aggresor nation and Pakistan an aggrieved party that needs help against india. That is what the US is doing.

If the US is kicked out, this particular tamasha cannot continue.

Well as you have eloquently pointed out, even when we do not attack first, we are blamed and the facts on ground (US support to Pakistan) do not change.

In fact it is not too late but the right time to change the tune. Attack repeatedly (with some what plausible deniable and some outright lying) but claim we do not.

But the visible attack must come from Pakistani side.

Yes, I agree that if US is kicked out the Pakis will find going tougher, but why will US leave? No one is kicking out the US and they are not going anywhere either.

The only way US leaves if its RoI in Pakiland is not tenable any longer. And it is our job to ensure that it is increasing difficult for US to stop Pakistan from commiting harakiri and stop being a useful idiot for them, by lashing out at India in anger, instead of the current measured approach they are successfully getting away with.

[Mahendra]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n ... igs26.html

Allah works in mysterious ways

At one point the Pakistani army was also called to the rescue and slaughtered 10,000 pigs in a single operation

Apparently PA is very good in slaughtering. This is one skill Pakistanis have mastered.[/quote]

Now I know where the figure of 10000 civilian casualties in the WOT comes from. Coming to think of it the Amriki mai baap may have even paid compensation for some of these civilians killed in collateral damage

[Kakkaji]

From TFT. My apologies if already posted:

Diary of a Social Butterfly

Yesterday some distant rellies of Janoo came from Faisalabad and while trucking into egg sandwiches and tea they sighed and said that it was better if we don't ask about Faisalabad. In fact it hadn't even recurred to my angels to ask about bore Faisalabad but of course Janoo having a deep interest in all things bore, had to ask.

'Roits!' they said. (Aik tau I don't understand why people must use English kay words when they can't even renounce them properly.) 'Bhai jaan, you won't believe how many roits. Every day roits. Bijli tau, we didn't have from before but now with gas also coming so little little, half the factories of Faisalabad have closed down.' Apparently even all the mill owners who haven't had to close down have had to lay down half their staff. And that laid down staff is now roiting. Sorry, sorry, I mean rioting. (You know, na, that when you hang out with illitreds you become illitred yourself. That's why it's so important to hang round parha likha English medium types.) And he also said fasaads were happening in Lahore industrial area and also in other cities. Because these factory workers and all, they have no savings na. And on top everyone has ten ten children because as you know, no one uses counterceptives. So when the ghar ka mard looses his job, twelve people go hungry. So if two hundred people from one factory are laid down, you can do the sums yourself and find out how many people go hungry. Honestly! I don't how this country survives.

On top Asif Zardari has come back from Dubai and the mammogate thing keeps coming back to haunt us on TV. It's become so bore now, honestly. We also hear the army's going to do jihad on America. After what happened in some check post on our boarder, apparently army's decided bus bohat ho gayee hai. We're going to maza chakkhao the Americans. I hope so it won't be like '71 when we maza chakhhaoed the Bengalis. Then also we'd banned outside wallahs' newspapers and radio stations from telling us what was happening in East Pakistan and now also we won't let BBC tell us what's happening in Pakistan. Janoo says it's called shooting the messenger. Haw, I said, bechara messenger, I hope so they took him to hospital.

I've been begging Janoo to join Imran but to no avail. Mulloo and Tony have joined, Ifti and Bano have joined, Pinky and Bobby have joined, Nickie 'n Nina, Tom & Jerry, Hansel and Gretel, Punch and Judy, even Aunty Pussy and Mummy have joined Imran. But then Janoo's always been such a loser. Can you belief it, he joined Imran in 1996 out of idolism and left him a year later saying he's too confused. Uff loser jaisa! Hai bhai, Janoo, not Imran!!

[Kakkaji]

From the 'Such Gup' section of last week's TFT. My apologies if already posted:

Such Gup

Return to Puristan

Our mole reports that a senior official of the Invisible Soldiers Inc. went to a polo meet in Malaysia recently, and while there attended a party where the sherbet was flowing. He had a great time, by all accounts, and when he left the venue in the wee hours, forgot his mobile phone on a sofa. Mercifully, it was retrieved by a conscientious guest and returned to him the next morning. The irony is that the conscientious guest happened to be the officer's counterpart from an unfriendly country , or so rumour has it! Upon the officer's return to Puristan, there was a bit of an inquiry we hear and he was let off with a mild rebuke.

Never seen
Pakistani hacks working the Washington beat speak of a rare occurrence at the Pakistan Embassy in DC recently. They say they have never seen the level of aggressive questioning that was meted out to the poor Brig who had called in the capital's press corps to brief them about Pakistan's take on the Mohmand check post attack. Aggression from the State Department or other arms of the US government is one thing, but downright hostility from members of the journo community was a phenomenon never seen before, says our source. The Brig was most put out and just could not get his point of view across.

[Kakkaji]

Selected 'Nuggets' from last week's TFT:

Imran Khan's 'chchittar'

Quoted in daily Express Imran Khan said that he could not help meeting the American ambassador Munter after he simply barged into his house in Islamabad. He said because of the scandal arising out of this meeting that next time the US ambassador comes to his he will drive him with his shoe (chchittar).

Mansoor Ijaz is Qadiani!
Daily Nawa-e-Waqt made the discovery that rascally American conspirator Mansoor Ijaz was a Qadiani serving the CIA for the past 20 years while travelling in his own private jet. His father was related to the Nobel Laureate Dr Abdus Salam while his grandfather was one of the inside circle of the founder of the faith.

Hanif Abbasi accuses Imran Khan

Writing in Jang funny columnist Ataul Haq Qasimi said that PMLN leader Hanif Abbasi had disclosed that Imran Khan in 1987 had written an application to chief minister Punjab Nawaz Sharif for a plot in Lahore. He got two plots for free on the pledge that he had no plots in his name and that he will not sell the new plots. Yet Imran Khan owned a plot in Zaman Park where he had his house and then he sold the plots thus acquired. (Imran Khan's reply was that Nawaz Sharif had asked him to write the application so that he could officially give him the plots which he did and sold the plots thereafter and donated the money to Shaukat Khanum Cancer Hospital.)

Shaukat Khanum Trustees get big salaries

Columnist Ataul Haq Qasimi wrote in Jang that Hanif Abbasi had also accused Imran Khan to including his family members in the Shaukat Khanum Trust giving them Rs 40 lakh every month as salaries. He accused him of confessing to gambling in his book whose British edition showed Kashmir as part of India. (Imran Khan replied that he was taking legal action against Hanif Abbasi to get him to prove that salaries were given to Trustees. He said the Kashmir misprint was removed later and that the betting was not in fact gambling because it was legal based on honest professional prediction.)

Veena Malik in 'trubbel' again

Daily Jinnah reported that Pakistani filmstar Veena Malik had posed nude for an India magazine while carrying the tattoo saying ISI on her arm. Veena Malik replied that he photo was 'bold' but not nude. The tattoo of ISI probably showed her loyalty to Pakistan and its most honourable agency . Veena Malik's father was also offended by her exposure and reprimanded her for going too far and regretted that she was his daughter: 'Kash who meri beti na hoti'. He said his entire family was very religious. Mashriq reported that the Taliban were so upset by Veena's photo that they sent her a death threat.

Our latest 'Aslambegism'

World famous military strategist and ex-army chief of Pakistan Aslam Beg told Nawa-e-Waqt that NATO's attack at Salala in Mohmand Agency was staged by the Americans to get some Taliban terrorists freed from Pakistani jails as the Taliban are not against the US but in secret allied with it. He said Pak Army had surrounded warlords Waliur Rehman and Fazlullah and the NATO attack was aimed at helping them.

If women drove cars in Saudi Arabia

Daily Mashriq reported that after Saudi Arabia relented and gave permission to Saudi women to drive cars a famous Saudi Islamic scholar told the Saudi religious council that the consequences of this permission would be: women will start selling their bodies, they will start seeking divorce from their husband and they will start doing obscene acts (fuhush harkaat).

Veena Malik offends the nation
Daily Pakistan reported that there was widespread emotional storm in Pakistan over the news that Veena Malik had posed nude for an Indian magazine and ruined Pakistan's honour for a few pennies. She was named Zahida Malik and wore burqa from class three till college but took off everything in India. Indian film producer Mahesh Bhatt said he would defend Veena Malik and give her full chance to clear her position. He said Veena should not consider herself alone because every Indian was on her side.

Obama takes revenge for his blackness
Columnist Tanvir Qaiser Shahid wrote in daily Express that when slaves become masters they behave worse than their tormentors. President Obama was from a community that had suffered cruelties at the hands of white Americans but he was now being cruel to the Muslims of Pakistan as US and Nato invasion kills innocent Pakistani troops at Salala checkpost.

Mangal Bagh gives Islamic punishment

Reported in daily Express family members of a man killed in Bara fired on the accused after he confessed to having killed their son. The son had gone to Bara to get her sister in law to come home when the father of the bride knifed him to death. Lashkar-e-Islam the terrorist organisation which rules Khyber Agency organised the punishment under Islamic Law.

Haqqani made envoy on Billa's advice

Daily Mashriq reported that prime minister Nawaz Sharif wanted to get rid of his aide Husain Haqqani in 1992 and did not know what to do. Haqqani was asking for an important post which Nawaz Sharif was not willing to give him. At this point ex-ISI officer Brigadier Imtiaz Ahmed alias Brigadier Billa known for the highest IQ known in spies, advised him to send him as ambassador to Sri Lanka which he did.

Raymond Davis's curse
Reported in Nawa-e-Waqt the family that Raymond Davis paid blood money to had gone berserk after coming into a lot of money. The boy whom Davis killed was Faheem and the blood money was paid to his brother Akram who has recently divorced his second wife after giving her a thrashing and has married a third one in addition to moving into a new house.

[pgbhat]

From the 'Such Gup' section of last week's TFT. My apologies if already posted:

Such Gup

Return to Puristan

Our mole reports that a senior official of the Invisible Soldiers Inc. went to a polo meet in Malaysia recently, ....

AFAIK Isfandiyar Ali Khan Pataudi plays polo.

[A_Gupta]

WRT TSP and retaliation, concrete goals are needed for concrete actions, true. But the sleight-of-hand here (as well as in India at large) is that we take the ready unavailability of beyond-debate concrete goals (a physical impossibility in any case) and magically turn that into an outright repudiation of taking on a hostile attitude towards our asuric enemy and instead adopting an appeasing attitude which is, in fact, a product of cowardice. The giveaway here is that our energy goes to debating away concrete goals and not at all for positively developing such goals, starting with a sense of moral responsibility to assert our national soul by destroying our enemy--who is not just our "rival" as westerners write and many of us believe, but is in fact our moral antithesis.

No, what we have had too much of on BRF is crybaby strategy, punching the "coward" rhetorical device, which escapes the necessity of showing how being "uncowardly" produces anything useful for India. Along with that comes paranoia, where India is the victim of forces and conspiracies hidden in plain sight (in other words, BRF is too much like a typical Pakistani TV news show).

I for one am not asking for beyond-debate concrete goals. Any goal will come with risks, and part of the analysis will be understanding the risks. But we don't have any goals described here, except a few honorable mentions. With no goals, only vague purposes like "punish Pakistan" there is no way to evaluate whether the desired outcome is in India's interests; what actions are needed to achieve the outcome; what means/resources will be needed; what is the cost; what are the risks; what is the worst-case scenario one should think about; what alignment of external forces will be needed - zilch.

If Pakistan is our moral antithesis and needs to be destroyed, then the average kind of writing on BRF is a major moral failure. It cannot be excused away as time-pass and "chill, this is just people venting". At least let people contribute to the other mission, which is to serve as a aggregator/summarizer of information about Pakistan.

If it wasn't serious, then the hobbyist approach to Pakistan, and the BENIS thread is all we need.

India cannot rely on a messiah-like PM to arise and do the right thing. There has to be a strategic culture and its habits of thinking among some of the public. And "Yatha Raja tatha Praja" dates from before the printing press and all the means of mass communications. Now it is that we get the leadership that we are willing to pay - in campaign contributions, in effort, in education, in public awareness.

At a minimum it will put an end to Shiv's annoying-but-necessary-since-no-one-seems-to-get-it posts, that correctly object to the "India cowardly, US brave" meme that infects this place. It doesn't matter if the average American is Superman and Hanuman rolled into one. The only relevant question on BRF is whether the US is working towards outcomes that suit Indian interests or against them.

[A_Gupta]

{to Shiv} You were alive in '65 and I believe you can attest to the fact that under SDRE Lal Bahadur Shastri Indians as a whole felt strong, confident, and morally sure-footed in confronting TSP, when we were in far direr material straits than today.

1965 is outside the scope of my memory, and I don't know how Indians felt confronting TSP back then. However, my general take is that back then Indians generally believed that anything Indian necessarily had to be second-rate. Now there is an increase in self-confidence - Indians now think Indian things need not be second-rate. I don't yet see the widespread determination that Indian things have to be first-rate. On a very personal note, I'll mention that I noticed the contrast even at a young age, because my father is one who always believed that Indians ought to be first rate.

[RajeshA]

Remove heavy guns from LoC: Pakistan

Islamabad suggested that artillery of greater than 120 mm be moved 30 km from the LoC. The LoC divides Jammu and Kashmir between India and Pakistan.

Any idea why Pakistan is suggesting this?

Aditya_V ji,

They are suggesting this, because those Pakholes in the TSPA have got nothing better to do than read my posts [1] [2] on the BRF!

[Manish_Sharma]

On the topic of whether Bharat goes on short wars against pakhanis or becomes strong by avoiding war for another 15 years.

And then in a "Sau Sunar ki Ek Luhar ki" style launches nuke strike of 315 warheads averaging 150 kt each around 2025.

Now during these 15 years we can continue the growth of numbers in Armed Forces from 1.1 million to 3 millions as the population will be well over 1.5 billion by then, economy would have compounded in size too.

Testing Surya under name of Agni 6.5 or something. And then making a policy change of arming each destroyer, frigate, A/c Carrier and other amphibious ships with these ICBMs depending on the size from 4 to 10 missile each.

I'm sure silos are also being made right now deep under the many granite mountains Desh has. Now missiles buried in silos with radars and AAD, PAD and Aakash would be impregnable.

Once these 315 warheads have completed the "Agni Hom" of Pakhanastan the Navy can move in to take charge of Gwadar+Karachi ports.

None of former nation of pakhanastani's 3.5 friends will dare to move against Bharatvarsh armed to teeth with ICBMs on submarines, surface ships and super protected silos. (Imagine the fear of a single salted warhead exploding over NY or London.)

Now Russkies can move in from Ahaganasthan which both the nations can divide between ourselves. The oil and gas pipeline from Russia to Bharat supplies our energy hungry nation everything we need in those days of emergency.

While the world comes to terms with a Bharatvarsh stretching from Gwadar to Kanyakumari, by the 2040 many of western european countries, australia, NZ, Canada even US would make move to engage Desh again to reap the profits of connecting with "Forever Nation" to use Parag Tope ji's term!

[anupmisra]

Imran el Khan urf jalsa-e-photoshopee





Imran el Khan's broke-back hilly moment

[chetak]

Imran el Khan urf jalsa-e-photoshopee





Imran el Khan's broke-back hilly moment

This joker was never a friend of India's and will never ever be, despite what's being portrayed by panting and creaming female anchors of the burqha brigade.

[shiv]

@shiv I think I understand your rhetorical reasons for talking about cowardly Indian nation etc. But MMS and the ruling clique have the primary responsibility for setting the tone for national cowardice. Yatha raja tatha praja. You were alive in '65 and I believe you can attest to the fact that under SDRE Lal Bahadur Shastri Indians as a whole felt strong, confident, and morally sure-footed in confronting TSP, when we were in far direr material straits than today.

No KLNM it was not that way. There was a lot more anxiety and a lot more dhoti shivering in 1965. Nowadays it is taken as a given that the Indian armed forces in general would defeat Pakistan to the extent that the "frustration" I see today is "We are not attacking Pakistan, so we are cowards". The 1965 attitude you have quoted is wrong. In 1965 and the years after there was a real fear that we would lose to Pakistan. Indians hardy felt "strong, confident a and morally sure footed". India was just 3 years down from the 1962 war and the armed forces and nation were hardly prepared for another war. India barely "won" the 1965 war. India managed to hold back the Pakistani assault and thwart Pakistani plans. The "holding back" was done by the simple military trick of opening a second front and Pakistan did not have the forces or generalship to cope with that. They called it an "Indian invasion", sued for a cease fire and called it victory.

I think most people do not understand some basic assumptions about war and tend to shoot their mouths off. I will keep on repeating this as long as necessary. For offence, and to capture territory in general you need an offensive force with a 2:1 numerical superiority over the defending forces. What this means is that it was Pakistan that needed that 2:1 superiority before attacking India. They did not have the required numerical superiority, and believed that 1 Paki=6 Hindoos and attacked nevertheless. they were decidedly not cowards (like we accuse Indians of being) and their premise was that cowardliness was Hindoo. But those brave Pakis were both foolhardy and stupid. For mere defence India merely had to have a matching force that was just about equal to Pakistani forces for successful defence. As an attacking force Pakis had it more difficult and they made the mistake that BRFItes are now asking India to do today.

Because it has never been India's policy to occupy Pakistan. India has never tried to assemble the 2:1 or 3:1 superiority over Pakistani forces. In addition, we have always had an eye on China and were unable to ever get the desired force levels to invade Pakistan. We can "defend" yes. But we cannot invade and break Pakistan that easily.

Pakistan was exactly in this state in 1965, 1971 and 1999. They had the forces to "defend" against a non existent Indian threat of attack, but they did not have the offensive force levels. Yet they attacked and they lost because of that. Teir attack plans were "local" in 1965 and 1999 imagining that India would not escalate. India attacking Pakistan would have similar drawbacks and Pakistan will be able to defend itself long enough to make an Indian offensive a failure unless we very carefully plan an offensive. Such a planned offensive would need national level planning and involvement of the entire country.

India is a cowardly country not because of MMS but because we have never planned a military offensive to break Pakistan until after 2001. India is weaker than you might think and cowardice is a good idea for weaklings. 1971 was an unplanned break and should not be passed off as some Chankian plan. It is so easy even to distort history of a mere 50 years, let alone 2000 years.

The Pakistan army has spent 50 plus years planning to attack and capture parts of India and other than an Indian sense of humiliation and inferiority in the face of Paki rhetoric, Pakistan is not in great shape after doing that. India must not take the path of having a national goal of defeating Pakistan alone. We do notwant war with Pakistan either started by us or by them. We can punish them if they start war, but our problem is that Pakis have been "punishing us" without war knowing that the US will stand by them as an "ally" if it comes to war and ensure their survival as a state. If Pakistan survives the next war with India, India has lost the war.

The best way to change that is to get the US out of Pakistan.

[gakakkad]

I for one am not asking for beyond-debate concrete goals. Any goal will come with risks, and part of the analysis will be understanding the risks. But we don't have any goals described here, except a few honorable mentions. With no goals, only vague purposes like "punish Pakistan" there is no way to evaluate whether the desired outcome is in India's interests; what actions are needed to achieve the outcome; what means/resources will be needed; what is the cost; what are the risks; what is the worst-case scenario one should think about; what alignment of external forces will be needed - zilch.

IMHO , whatever we do with Pakistan should profit us financially besides punishing them . While deciding strategy we should formulate objective goals , timeframe of action , budgetary and manpower allocations and risk/benefit analysis .

[Pranav]

India is a cowardly country not because of MMS but because we have never planned a military offensive to break Pakistan until after 2001. India is weaker than you might think and cowardice is a good idea for weaklings.

This is true. We have never planned any offensive, because for our elites, looting the starving masses has higher priority than worrying about external enemies.

The best way to change that is to get the US out of Pakistan.

But very soon, China will be the largest economy on the planet. Then what?

[Pranav]

We will have to prepare to fight that war with Pakisatn to the bitter end, dicing Pakistan into pieces even if it leads to nuclear war.

The bitter truth is that Pakistan has India by the balls and all this blaming of MMS is merely Indians thrashing about in frustration that X is weak, Y as leader would be strong. It is all nonsense. Pakistan has us by the testimonials and with US connivance we are basically tied down. And having been tied down we are being taunted by Pakistanis and criticised by frustrated Indians that we are cowards.

True ...

This is called cowardice. The fear of not wining a war with Pakistan is called cowardice. Lots of Indians are unashamed cowards. If you are not one well you have some choices open to you.

Why not call it realism.

Be that as it may, there are basically three choices
(1) Plan for an all-out war, in which case we may destroy the Paks but also lose some 25 or 30 cities ourselves
(3) Carry out pin-pricks like killing Saeed, but then being prepared for a more retaliatory terrorist attacks, which may escalate towards option (1)
(3) Going deeper. There are subtler ways.

[SureshP]

Pakistan consumes half of its gas reserves

KARACHI: Pakistan is left with only 50 percent natural gas reserves as high consumption in different sectors has exhausted 50 percent of the overall reserves of 54 trillion cubic feet (tcf) by financial year of 2011-12, said State Bank of Pakistan in its annual report.

The country now has sufficient reserves to last just over 20 years, under the increasingly unlikely scenario that current production rates are maintained throughout. The country experienced some of the worst gas shortages in its history in 2011 as supply to the industrial, compressed natural gas (CNG) and power sectors was significantly curtailed, resulting in closure of hundreds of units and losses to business and productions.

The shortfall peaked during the winter season, when gas consumption for domestic heating increased, and demand reached 4,580 million cubic feet per day (mmcfd) versus supply of 3,878 mmcfd. Throughout the remainder of the year, shortfall in the system varied between 10 to 15 percent of demand (400-700 mmcfd), depending on supply availability from key fields.

The impact on textile production was particularly damaging and supply to fertilizer producers was curtailed by up to 20 percent vis-à-vis their allocation.

The natural gas availability to the power sector also remained below requirement. In particular, gas availability to Karachi Electric Supply Company (KESC) averaged around 55 percent of official allocation (276 mmcfd) whereas independent power producers based on gas were forced to remain idle or operate below capacity.

The factors contributing to prevailing shortages of natural gas exploration in Pakistan have not been undertaken aggressively, hence production has historically remained undiversified. As of fiscal year 2010, natural gas was being produced from 98 fields, of which nine fields accounted for 80 percent of total daily supply.

Exploration and production activity has been largely concentrated in Sindh with 71 percent of total production and the most recent significant gas discovery dates back to 1998.

In effect, Pakistan must aggressively explore alternatives to diversify supply of this precious commodity. Part of the explanation for why gas exploration has remained subdued may be found in the pricing structure of the commodity. Exploratory prices of gas are linked to crude oil, but impact of changes in reference crude prices is not fully passed on to investors, as benchmark prices for compensation are computed on a bi-annual basis only.

Furthermore, exploration and production companies accrue only 50 percent of any upside price movements in the price of gas with the remainder collected by the government in the form of a windfall levy. Producer (well-head) prices of gas therefore do not particularly incentivise exploration of the commodity, and production companies receive prices below import parity levels.

These features of domestic gas pricing may come across as peculiar at first, but are justifiable so long as the benefits accrue squarely to the country’s industrial base.

For these reasons, the supply-demand position of natural gas has deteriorated significantly, and shortages of the commodity with reference to indigenous supply are projected to increase to 3,021 mmcfd by FY16 or 48 percent of projected demand.

Nearly half of this deficit may be bridged by imports, if arrangements presently under consideration are implemented as scheduled.

Demand growth is expected to outpace increase in supply, and gas shortages may intensify in the near future. Based on supply projections, domestic production of gas is likely to peak by FY14 at 3,860 mmcfd and is set to decline thereafter.

Natural depletion in gas fields will ensure that committed supplies fall considerably short of demand, which is projected to reach 5,970 mmcfd by FY16. Production from fields presently identified for development will therefore become critical in managing the demand-supply gap.

Key projects scheduled to come online by FY14 will contribute 460 mmcfd to gas supplies. Furthermore, since domestic production of gas will no longer be sufficient to meet consumption requirements, reliance on imports will increase. Between FY12 and FY16, the domestic gas shortfall is projected to increase from 2,458 mmcfd to 3,021 mmcfd, which may be reduced by 40 percent via imports. staff report

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 011_pg5_10

[gakakkad]

But very soon, China will be the largest economy on the planet. Then what?

by that time India will be the third largest economy and on the verge of being the 2nd . due to ageing population , the chinese manpower would greatly decline. Due to rise in the local demand its export would come down ,imports would go up and balance of trade will become negative.

While India will be in its demographic dividend. Will have the largest manpower in the planet. Will still grow rapidly . And the balance of trade will become positive .

[shiv]

But very soon, China will be the largest economy on the planet. Then what?

I repeat that I am fascinated by the confidence that Indians have in the USA, and failing that China. I believe that India will fill part of the gap left by the USA. China may or may not fill the rest. We will have to see. We have so much confidence in every nation other than India.

But a lot of Indians do not even put India's name up in a place where it has the potential to go because they do not even see the possibility that India's name could be there. Yours is the second statement to do that on this thread.

Of course - I think India will fill the space left by the US. I am only asking that India should actively look at helping to ease the US out of Pakistan and filling that space.

[shiv]

Why not call it realism.

Be that as it may, there are basically three choices
(1) Plan for an all-out war, in which case we may destroy the Paks but also lose some 25 or 30 cities ourselves
(3) Carry out pin-pricks like killing Saeed, but then being prepared for a more retaliatory terrorist attacks, which may escalate towards option (1)
(3) Going deeper. There are subtler ways.

We are going deeper and subtler. Everyone seems to call that cowardice. And since no one who calls it cowardice wants to be associated with that title, it is blamed on the current incumbent PM MMS.

"Going subtler and deeper" is what China and the US have never done. They are bold countries.

[Pranav]

But very soon, China will be the largest economy on the planet. Then what?

I repeat that I am fascinated by the confidence that Indians have in the USA, and failing that China. I believe that India will fill part of the gap left by the USA. China may or may not fill the erst. We will have to see. We have so much confidence in every nation other than India.

But a lot of Indians do not even put India's name up in a place where it has the potential to go because they do not even see the possibility that India's name could be there. Yours is the second statement to do that on this thread.

Of course - I think India will fill the space left by the US. I am onl asking that India should actvely look at helping to ease the US out of Pakistan and filing that space.

We are a nation that, 64 years after independence, has a majority of its population living in sub-human conditions, on the brink of starvation.

We are a nation which gladly allows kleptocratic (former?) foreign intelligence assets to run the show, through EVMs programmed on foreign soil.

We are going deeper and subtler.

I doubt Maino clan wants to do anything of the sort. Their main enemies are "Hindoo terrorists".

[gakakkad]

>>We are a nation that, 64 years after independence, has a majority of its population living in sub-human conditions, on the brink of starvation.


While it serves the rhetoric purpose of lefties , politicians and BRFites alike , the statement is not literally true . The malnutrition stats and poverty stats in India are greatly exaggerated.

65% of the population has a cell phone. That is more than one per family . If they cannot afford food , they cannot afford cell phones.

We often hear statements like starvation being worse than sub saharan africa etc . But that is bull crap .

Such statements are often made , to support the left winged bills (like food security bill) and to prevent economic reforms . The same class of people who make those statements also say that poor have gone poorer due to reforms etc. Balderdash ...

[Pranav]

Such statements are often made , to support the left winged bills (like food security bill) and to prevent economic reforms . The same class of people who make those statements also say that poor have gone poorer due to reforms etc. Balderdash ...

There were some statistics which lead to poverty line being fixed at Rs 25 per person per day in rural areas and Rs 32 in urban areas. If those statistics are flawed, that can be argued with data.

[CRamS]

Guys, lots a good argument by DocJi, GuptaJi etc explaining why India's stance cannot be construed as cowardice, but I have a tough time accepting that India had no options other than MMS's abject surrender. It is truly shameful what TSP has gotten away with, and worse actually reaping the rewards of that act of war. I hang my head in shame.

[gakakkad]

>>There were some statistics which lead to poverty line being fixed at Rs 25 per person per day in rural areas and Rs 32 in urban areas. If those statistics are flawed, that can be argued with data.

That is not the bpl line. That was Monteks proposal for cut off income for stopping government aid .BPL calculation in India is quite complicated and takes into account several other factors besides income

There are several reasons for exaggeration of statistics.

1) BPL card holders have several advantages . Besides free ration , they get free medications from govt hospital , loans for various purposes etc. I have seen quite a few people flash the bpl card in various gov't hospitals to get the free medications. Yet they have cell phones. I saw that even in 2007 . Thinngs now are even better.

2) More BPL , more grains in PDS more corruption.

3) Vote bank politics. Give more BPL cards win votes etc.

Having said that , quite a few genuinely poor people are left out. Typically the homeless , family less etc who are not aware about various BPL schemes. The poverty centric planning not only hampers growth , it also deprives genuine people from getting the benefits. Basically shows the intellectual poverty of the planners.

Now they should concentrate on the next phase - building infra , improved health care , higher education and science research besides ensuring rapid industrialization .

[A_Gupta]

See the education thread for why Getting India's demographic dividend iis going to take a lot of work.

[gakakkad]

^^ already replied saar.. Anyway I am not in favour of whacking Pakis now..

Lot more needs to be done before we can think of whacking them . IMHO 2025-2030 time frame should be set to whack them .

[SSridhar]

Imran el Khan urf jalsa-e-photoshopee
Imran el Khan's broke-back hilly moment

This joker was never a friend of India's and will never ever be. . .

Every Pakistani is an intractable enemy of India. There is no exception. There never was and there never will be.

[Pranav]

This joker was never a friend of India's and will never ever be. . .

Every Pakistani is an intractable enemy of India. There is no exception. There never was and there never will be.

Small correction: It should be "Every Pakistani who calls himself a Pakistani ..."

There are many who don't fall in that category.

[rajithn]

Small correction: It should be "Every Pakistani who calls himself a Pakistani ..."

There are many who don't fall in that category.

The Paki who is not calling himself a Paki is practising Taqqiya. Expect "Pukistaniyat" to rear its face when the opportunity presents itself.

There is only one 'good' Paki...

[Pranav]

Small correction: It should be "Every Pakistani who calls himself a Pakistani ..."

There are many who don't fall in that category.

The Paki who is not calling himself a Paki is practising Taqqiya.

What about Baloch Liberation Army, Jiye Sindh, Shias in Balitistan, Pushtun nationalists etc.

[rajithn]

[quote="PranavWhat about Baloch Liberation Army, Jiye Sindh, Shias in Balitistan, Pushtun nationalists etc.[/quote]

I intended to write more in my original response and then stopped myself. As far as I am concerned, all of them are the same. They seem to be outliers within the Pakistani system today. There has been far too much ideological radicalization (religious and political) for the larger society west of our borders and we will be making a mistake in counting them as our bosom buddies. In the greater interest of national and regional security, it would pay to have alliances with some of these sections to meet specific goals. But beyond that?

[RamaY]

Small correction: It should be "Every Pakistani who calls himself a Pakistani ..."

There are many who don't fall in that category.

so much hope and confidence in Pakis, but no hope and confidence in Indians.

There is only one good Paki, that is MMS, PM of India.

[member_21708]

Asia Bibi says jail warden tried to strangulate her
Asia Bibi, a Christian woman sentenced to death under Pakistan's controversial blasphemy law, has claimed that a female jail warden had tried to strangulate her following an argument.

Asia also said she cooks her own food in prison due to fear that she might be poisoned.

“I live in a confined cell. I am allowed to go out for only 30 minutes every day, and allowed to meet my family for one hour every Tuesday,” Asia said in an interview with Masihi Foundation, a Christian group that works for the rights of the minority community.

“I am given raw material to cook for myself, since the administration fears I might be poisoned, as other Christians accused of blasphemy were poisoned or killed in the jail,” she said in response to questions sent to her by the rights group.

Asia said authorities had recently suspended a female warden who tried to strangle her after an argument over a “minute issue”.

She said Islamic clerics had offered a bounty of about $ 8,000 to anyone who would kill her.

The 45-year-old mother of five is currently on death row in a prison in Punjab.

A court is yet to begin hearing her appeal against her conviction.

Asia was sentenced to death last year after being convicted under the blasphemy law for allegedly insulting Prophet Mohammed.

She denied the charge and said she was framed by a group of Muslim women with whom she had a row.

The women were working in a field with Asia when she was asked to fetch water.

The Muslim women refused to drink the water brought by Asia and, during a subsequent quarrel, she was accused of insulting the Prophet Mohammed.

Asia described the blasphemy law as a “manmade law” that was misused to settle personal vendettas.

She said it “should be repealed or at least amended” as it had “claimed so many innocent lives”.

She further said the situation of Christians in Pakistan is “not very good”.

The Christians, especially those in villages, are “mistreated, abused and framed for false cases as they cannot afford to fight for their rights”.

Asia said she was “assaulted and harassed by the police” after her arrest.

“I was in a state of shock for many days. I fasted and prayed. My family has been in trouble; they have been moving one place to another.

“But I have forgiven the Muslims who had put me and my family in this situation,” she said.

She said she was praying and fasting to be with her family so that she could “hug my daughters, kiss them”.

Punjab Governor Salmaan Taseer, who backed a call for Asia to be pardoned, was gunned down in Islamabad by a police guard who said he was angered by the politician's criticism of the blasphemy law.

According to official figures, 131 people are being held in jails across Punjab on blasphemy charges.

Eleven of them have been sentenced to death, including Asia, who was the first woman to be given the penalty.

Though no one has been executed after being convicted under the controversial law, 35 people, including Taseer, who were accused of committing blasphemy or defending those charged with blasphemy, have been killed between 1990 and 2011.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/asia- ... r/892654/0

[member_21708]

David Headley’s wife may help nail LeT founder Saeed
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 274016.cms

[Sanku]

No, what we have had too much of on BRF is crybaby strategy, punching the "coward" rhetorical device, which escapes the necessity of showing how being "uncowardly" produces anything useful for India. .....

But we don't have any goals described here, except a few honorable mentions.

Frankly A-Gupta, the problem here is not that there is no clarity on goals, the problem is that some people (like you Sir) consistently turn and twist around very hard to not to be able to see clearly stated goals.

What can anyone do?

I think you should sit down take a deep breath and think why you reserve your hate for some Indians who clearly outline strong measures by words like

"what we have had too much of on BRF is crybaby strategy,"
"punching the "coward" rhetorical device"
"which escapes the necessity"

Just a single sentence has three set of fulminations on fellow Indians on BRF.

If only you had half the moral outrage against those who actually deserved it.

Quite sad

[Aditya_V]

Asia Bibi says jail warden tried to strangulate her
Asia Bibi, a Christian woman sentenced to death under Pakistan's controversial blasphemy law, has claimed that a female jail warden had tried to strangulate her following an argument.

Asia also said she cooks her own food in prison due to fear that she might be poisoned.

“I live in a confined cell. I am allowed to go out for only 30 minutes every day, and allowed to meet my family for one hour every Tuesday,” Asia said in an interview with Masihi Foundation, a Christian group that works for the rights of the minority community.

“I am given raw material to cook for myself, since the administration fears I might be poisoned, as other Christians accused of blasphemy were poisoned or killed in the jail,” she said in response to questions sent to her by the rights group.

Asia said authorities had recently suspended a female warden who tried to strangle her after an argument over a “minute issue”.

She said Islamic clerics had offered a bounty of about $ 8,000 to anyone who would kill her.

The 45-year-old mother of five is currently on death row in a prison in Punjab.

A court is yet to begin hearing her appeal against her conviction.

Asia was sentenced to death last year after being convicted under the blasphemy law for allegedly insulting Prophet Mohammed.

She denied the charge and said she was framed by a group of Muslim women with whom she had a row.

The women were working in a field with Asia when she was asked to fetch water.

The Muslim women refused to drink the water brought by Asia and, during a subsequent quarrel, she was accused of insulting the Prophet Mohammed.

Asia described the blasphemy law as a “manmade law” that was misused to settle personal vendettas.

She said it “should be repealed or at least amended” as it had “claimed so many innocent lives”.

She further said the situation of Christians in Pakistan is “not very good”.

The Christians, especially those in villages, are “mistreated, abused and framed for false cases as they cannot afford to fight for their rights”.

Asia said she was “assaulted and harassed by the police” after her arrest.

“I was in a state of shock for many days. I fasted and prayed. My family has been in trouble; they have been moving one place to another.

“But I have forgiven the Muslims who had put me and my family in this situation,” she said.

She said she was praying and fasting to be with her family so that she could “hug my daughters, kiss them”.

Punjab Governor Salmaan Taseer, who backed a call for Asia to be pardoned, was gunned down in Islamabad by a police guard who said he was angered by the politician's criticism of the blasphemy law.

According to official figures, 131 people are being held in jails across Punjab on blasphemy charges.

Eleven of them have been sentenced to death, including Asia, who was the first woman to be given the penalty.

Though no one has been executed after being convicted under the controversial law, 35 people, including Taseer, who were accused of committing blasphemy or defending those charged with blasphemy, have been killed between 1990 and 2011.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/asia- ... r/892654/0

The worst is many Anglo- Indians or Christians in Paki Punjab were helping the British Administration in generating list of prominent Hindus/ Sikhs and giving them to the Muslim League. Many of those Hindus/Sikhs thought they were secular and hence would be saved. None could recognize the consequences of Fundamentalism . Even in India many don't realise the consequences of pampering some of the Fundamentalists within India.

[surinder]

I am reading Steve Coll's Ghost wars. Interesting tidbits about TSP. What do people here think of that book?

It says that in 1971, KSA provided air defence for Karachi.

Interesting that we support them against the Israelis. Pathetic actually.

[Gus]

An excellent book and his other one "The Bin Ladens" is also a well researched one.

[member_19686]

The worst is many Anglo- Indians or Christians in Paki Punjab were helping the British Administration in generating list of prominent Hindus/ Sikhs and giving them to the Muslim League. Many of those Hindus/Sikhs thought they were secular and hence would be saved. None could recognize the consequences of Fundamentalism . Even in India many don't realise the consequences of pampering some of the Fundamentalists within India.

Do you know of any sources where I can find more info about the first point?

I know prominent Xtian leaders in Punjab supported Partition and chose Pak but the point about them generating lists of prominent Hindus and Sikhs?

As for these Hindu/Sikh traitors, Sachar family was one such who ran away as did other cowards like Khushwant Singh but some did get served.

Here is one example:

Professor Brij Narain was a famous Lahore-born academic whose books on economics were on the required reading list of the curricula of pre-partition universities. Enamoured by Jinnah’s English lifestyle and mannerism and himself strongly secular and idealistic, Brij Narain underestimated the morbid impact of the rabidly anti-Hindu and anti-Sikh rhetoric of the 1945-46 election campaign in Punjab. He developed a strong set of arguments to prove that Pakistan was economically feasible and viable. When partition took place in mid-August 1947 and Lahore was burning, he continued to believe that Hindus like him could be Pakistanis like any other community. A mob arrived at his door and mercilessly killed him notwithstanding his pleas that he supported Pakistan.

http://ahmadiyyatimes.wordpress.com/page/150/

JN Mandal was another.